Variable capacity lid reliability

[Graham Radford]

Hello all,

When I bought my variable capacity tanks, the seller told me to use a standard airlock instead of the marble dry airlock which is provided with the tanks. Said he didnt trust them to be fully airtight. Also when I fermented a batch in one of them the marble was silent and didnt move which made it seem like it wasnt airtight. Since I'm planning on now using one for 6 months or so of aging, I'm wondering what people are finding is the best airlock to use on them is? When I say using a regular airlock I mean cutting the dry marble part out of the airlock and using a bung and s style one inserted in the bottom part.

Any input is appreciated,

Graham

[CiderSupply.com]

For me initially if i have an active ferment where the potential of heavy foaming yeast cap is likely to come through the vent, the plastic ball style is good for letting out sludge instead of the typical water filled airlock getting clogged and bulging the tank. As long as gassing is occurring the seal of the ball is not that important.

However; for when the ferment has slowed or almost stopped and I use the tank for aging, then I like and swap to the S style air lock for three main reasons.

First I can see yeast activity status based on bubble activity.

Second as long as there is water in the S bend I know that the seal is intact.

Third, unlike the ball, if the volume of cider decreases slightly, the liquid airlock slightly compensates, the ball has no compensation and the tank can draw a vacuum and inevitably draw air in over long term. Over time as the cider warms and cools by a few degrees, the check ball in essence allows the tank to actually inhale and exhale because of this pressure variation.

Best regards
Chris Rylands
Renaissance Orchards

[radfordgraham333]

Thanks for the info, do you ferment and age all in one tank? Or ferment in one tank and then transfer to another tank? I thought about doing it all in one but am not sure if the yeast contact is a big deal or not. Either way I'll follow your advice and use the s style for long term aging.

Graham

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

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[NICHOLAS BRADSTOCK]

Just wondering- and please correct me if I haven’t understood, but won’t an ‘S’ type airlock let CO2 out or air in if the pressure inside is higher, or lower, than the ambient outside the tank?

This might be due to a number of reasons, such as the volume of cider changing as you describe, and whether or not there is water in the airlock?

Cheers
Nick

iPhone

> On 24 Nov 2019, at 19:32, CiderSupply.com <cryl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> For me initially if i have an active ferment where the potential of heavy foaming yeast cap is likely to come through the vent, the plastic ball style is good for letting out sludge instead of the typical water filled airlock getting clogged and bulging the tank. As long as gassing is occurring the seal of the ball is not that important.

[CiderSupply.com]

I pretty much always rack multiple times to actually keep the cider off of the Lees. The Lees serve as yeast fertlizer as it decomposes, plus I personally dislike overly dry cider with no residual sweetness. So multiple rackings help me stall the fermentations.

[CiderSupply.com]

The level can fluctuate a bit without letting air in, but if there is too much headspace then the expansion and contraction exceeds the ability of the S airlock to keep air out.

[radfordgraham333]

Ok good to know. I'll just use it as a seperate secondary vessel. I like mine fully dry so I'll stick to one racking once primary is finished(or close to). Thanks again for your time

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------

From: "CiderSupply.com" <cryl...@comcast.net>

Date: 2019-11-24 4:17 PM (GMT-05:00)

To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

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[radfordgraham333]

Ok good to know. I'll just use it as a seperate secondary vessel. I like mine fully dry so I'll stick to one racking once primary is finished(or close to). Thanks again for your time

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------

From: "CiderSupply.com" <cryl...@comcast.net>

Date: 2019-11-24 4:17 PM (GMT-05:00)

To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Variable capacity lid reliability

[Miguel Pereda]

Graham Radfod. If you like dry cider and want to ripen it without adding additives, I suggest you consider bottle ripening. Bottling and if your cider is healthy and microbiologically stabilized, you will be surprised at the organoleptic benefits after, for example, nine months.
Miguel Ángel

[Wayne Bush]

Taking this thread back to the original subject....Graham I'm glad you posted this question.  I use variable capacity tanks but it never occurred to me to question the integrity of the "marble" type airlock. But I also noticed that while the marble on one of my tanks is very noisy, the other two are basically silent.   I rely on the CO2 generated during fermentation to protect the cider during fermentation.  When fermentation is complete, I generally rack and then place the floating lid directly on the cider in the new tank  to exclude air.  I rely on the tube seal around the lid, and the marble air lock, to keep air out.  I haven't experienced any problem with this, but maybe I've been lucky.  Would be very interested to know if anyone has first-hand experience of the 'marble" type airlocks on variable capacity tanks posing a problem.  

[CiderSupply.com]

Yes, marble got material under it and its seat, diddnt seat properly, and then loaded-up with fruit flys that also got into that cider.

[Graham Radford]

Hi Wayne,

After racking the cider into my variable tank and setting the lid directly onto the cider about 24 hours ago, I'm seeing a small amount of leakage coming from the base of the airlock(I decided to go with inserting the s style into a sawed off marble airlock). Not from the bung or airlock but apparantly from the seal of the part that screws together. I know it's a little off topic but I didnt know how to send a private message, and was wondering if you have experienced this with your tanks? I'm concerned that over the course of 6 months of aging this could cause spoilage. Fyi when I screwed the base of the airlock in, I tightened it quite thoroughly. So I'm a little confused to why it's happening in the first place. Anyways if you have any advice on this I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

[Wayne Bush]

Hi Graham,

 

     I haven't seen what you describe.  I assume you mean cider seeping out of the tank onto the floating lid which seems odd. On my tanks, there is a slight recess on the underside of the lid where the flat nut screws onto the bottom of the airlock.  The airlock itself sits on a washer.  The combination of the recess and the washer minimizes the chance of any seepage.  Is it possible that you didn't put the washer back under the airlock if you removed the airlock to cut off the top?  I don't know whether you need to worry about the seepage--it would seem to me that even if there is seepage the amount of surface area for the cider to make contact with air is extremely minute---I hope others on the forum who know better than me will say whether that would bring any serious risk of oxidation.  

[radfordgraham333]

Thanks for the reply Wayne,

The leak has stopped(for whatever reason) so I'm not overly concerned now. I did make sure to use the washer but maybe I should tighten it up. I think you're right that the amount of oxidation is probably not an issue and I plan on sulphiting anyways once the tank is full. It's my first time using one of these tanks for long term storage so I guess I'm just unsure of how well they work, but logically there shouldn't be any issues. 

Thanks again

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------

From: Wayne Bush <butter...@hotmail.com>

Date: 2019-12-11 12:57 PM (GMT-05:00)

To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

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[Graham Radford]

Just thought I'd ask again if anyone can give input on this.

I've taken the lid off and retightened(its as tight as it can be and the washer is in place) the nut on the bottom of the airlock, but cider is still seeping out onto the top of the lid. I assume this must be a somewhat common issue since the tank I bought seems to be of good quality(italian made) and the airlocks I think are more or less the same from tank to tank. Hoping someone can give advice on how to fix this issue since this cider may very well be in the tank for up to a year and it's safe to assume this will cause spoilage. My other tank is bone dry on top and it's the exact same type of airlock being used, so I'm stumped as to why this is happening.

Any input would be really appreciated

[cidersupply.com]

Is your lid actually placed on the cider floating, or do you have an inch or two air gap?

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S8 Active, an AT&T 5G Evolution capable smartphone

-------- Original message --------

From: Graham Radford <radfordg...@gmail.com>

Date: 12/19/19 7:57 PM (GMT-08:00)

To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

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[radfordgraham333]

Its placed directly on the cider

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

[cidersupply.com]

Try an inch of headspace and that should take care of the problem.

[radfordgraham333]

Thanks for the tip. Though I'd prefer not to leave any headspace since that will introduce oxygen. I have re tightened the nut using a thick paper towel for added grip and am hoping thats sufficient. It did leak a tiny bit after but has stopped since. If the leak persists I'll consider raising the lid off the surface of the cider, but I believe leaving it directly on the surface will protect it better. 

[Eric Tyira]

There must be something we're missing.  Are there rubber washers?  If not, can you add them?  

Pics may be a help.  Clear closeups.

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[radfordgraham333]

I do have the washer installed. Its not currently leaking so I dont know how much a picture will help. Maybe I just need to tighten it to the extreme (with pliers) however since it's made of plastic, I could see it cracking if the nut was turned on too hard. It seems to leak sometimes and then stop and start again which doesnt really make any sense. It hasn't leaked in about 18 hours or so, so it probably is ok now. My plan is to get a titration kit to test for sulphite every 2-3 months. At least then I can rest assured that there is sufficient protection during storage in case any air is getting in. If it starts leaking again, I will post pics. 

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