Bottle fermentation with EC-1118 & free SO2 levels

[Johan]

Hello,

I'll be bottling 2020 ciders for bottle fermentation in a couple of days and just got a bulk package of Lalvin EC-1118 which state that "When inoculation, make sure that free SO2 content of must is lower than 15mg/l". I have always aimed to bottle with 25mg/l free SO2, even though most of it will be bound in a while, and never had any problems but this got me wondering if over 15mg/l free SO2 levels could theoretically inhibit bottle fermentation with EC-1118 as I have always assumed that 1118 would be very tolerant for higher SO2-levels? And do I actually need to add more than 15 mg/l to bottling container as this would be fine for me if risks for oxidation & unwanted stuff are not rising. Bottling temperature is about 20c so I would assume there ain't gonna be a lack of activity in the bottle. I would also be interested to know what kind of SO2 level is used in commercial bottling when ciders are planned to mature with lees 1 to x years before disgorging?

Many thanks,
Johan

[Liam Tinston]

Hi,

I tend to look at between 10 and 15mg/l FSO2 going into bottle for secondary ferment, the lower the better for me usually, as realistically the amount oxidation or spoilage risk is very low with the amount of CO2 in the bottle plus the fact that yeast lees act as an Oxidation/Reduction Buffer. I have aged on lees in bottle for 24 months and longer before disgorging and have noticed no spoilage or oxidation or off aromas of any kind. I would also recommend a cool secondary ferment to enhance flavour and bubble structure, as opposed to 20 degrees, which I would say would be too warm, look to be more in the 12 to 15 degree range, it may take a bit longer, but you will end up with a better cider in the end. Just my ten cents.

Cheers,

Liam

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[Steve Drew]

Hi Johan, Liam,

I am a hobby ciderist and also bottle for secondary fermentation, after priming for carbonation, and leave the cider sur lees for the drinkable life of the cider. My go to yeast is EC1118 with the occasional dally with 71B for juice with higher TA(malic)s. I do not treat any of my juice with metabisulphite and as yet have not suffered any spoilage, even with low TA blends. Other than that I am a 'clean freak'. Some ciders may have a slight sulphury smell during and after primary fermentation. While I have not measured FSO2 in any of my ready to bottle ciders, I have noted that the occasional bottle does give off a strongish suphury smell if opened in the first 6 to 12 weeks. Yes, sacrilege, I know, but one must do what one must. After that period, however, I have not found a cider to have any detectable SO2 to the nose or palate. Stabilisation or absorbtion of FSO2 seems to happen fairly quickly and completely under those conditions.

I'll see your 10 cents and raise you another 10.

Steve

[Andrew Lea]

i think there is a misunderstanding here. You seem to be confusing free SO2 with sulphide taints (H2S). The two are not the same and have different origins. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 27 Jul 2021, at 22:09, Steve Drew <steve...@utas.edu.au> wrote:

Hi Johan, Liam,

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[Steve Drew]

Thank you Andrew.

Still observing and still learning, as we do.

That said, I wasn’t referring to “rotten egg” smells (H2S) though. I was referring to the sorts of ‘sulphury’ or ‘sulphurous’ smells similar to those that emanate from sodium metabisulphite solution. I associate it with an antiseptic smell these days.

EC1118 is known to produce a fair amount of SO2 (up to 30ppm) as outlined on the product description. My observation that the sulphur “slight sulphurous” smell dissipates over time is as recorded in a number of texts and cidermakers’ observations. This is in fact due to binding of the FSO2, if I have this correct. In your text on p101 second paragraph I see SO2 production during fermentation is briefly covered Andrew. Similarly, Claude’s text mentions this in some detail in the section on ‘How sulphite works’.

In any case, thanks for heading off any potential misinformation.

Warm regards
Steve

 

 

Steve Drew PhD MHEd                            ORCiD: 0000-0002-8601-9815

Senior Lecturer - Professional Learning and Networks for Teachers

Tasmanian Institute of Learning and Teaching | Academic Division

University of Tasmania

Private Bag 133 Hobart TAS 7001

T +61 3 6226 2387 | M +61 416 158 367

utas.edu.au

 

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Just to relieve your fears...

A number of years ago I did some experiments to evaluate the effect of adding SO2 at bottling time on the in-bottle prise de mousse.

Note that I was doing the Methode ancestrale (that is to bottle before the fermentation is completed at a density around 1.010 to 1.015) - hence no addition of sugar or of yeast. But I did add a tiny dosage of DAP at bottling, as described in The New Cider Maker's Handbook.

So I made bottles with addition of 20, 40, and up to 70-75 ppm of SO2 and let them do their in-bottle fermentation. Note these are the ppm of SO2 added. I didn't measure the free SO2.

The result was that even with 75ppm added, the fermentation was not inhibited, but I got more fermentation and sparkle from the bottles that had more SO2 added!

For example on one batch that was bottled at 1.012, it finished at 1.007 without addition of SO2. And with 70ppm of SO2, it finished at 1.004.

On another batch, bottled at 1.013, finished at 1.009 without addition of SO2, and finished at 1.0065 with addition of 73ppm of SO2.

[Liam Tinston]

Hi Steve,

I think being a 'clean freak' is the best thing to be if you are a cider maker, I have always been told you can't make anything worth drinking if you're not spending more time cleaning than making. I would wager that the sulphury smell during or after primary fermentation or early in a bottle ferment would be hydrogen sulphide, usually happens when a ferment lacks O2 or nutrition or both. Do you use any yeast nutrient for your secondary ferment or primary? would recommend a DAP/Thiamine blend as this will often mean you wont get the sulphury aromas. For a primary, add after the first 3rd of sugars has converted, for the secondary add in the tirage.

Liam 

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[Liam Tinston]

Hi Claude,

Thanks for sharing that trialling you did, I find it fascinating. All of the processes I have been taught tell me that it should not be possible. However, I think if you are continuing a fermentation that is already ticking along well, then a big SO2 addition will knock it back but not stop it completely as you found. I remember trying to stop a well moving sweet wine fermentation a few years ago to obtain the required sugar level and I had real trouble stopping it even with a big SO2 addition and keeping the temperature around zero so I for sure find it all interesting. Would be great to know how much of your 70ppm addition of SO2 was bound up and what was left as Free. I do think you would find it hard to start a secondary fermentation from the scratch with such a large SO2 addition, especially with alcohol already in the liquid. 

Liam

[Steve Drew]

Hi Liam,

Thanks very much for the info on reducing H2S during fermentation stages. I do use some low nitrogen apples from roadside trees from time to time. I also do use a DAP/Thiamine blend or a Bintani yeast nutrient in the primary fermentation. I am not sure but I think that Bintani nutrient has dead yeast cells in the mix too. Will have to research it better. In any case I have never gotten the rotten egg smell of H2S in any of my ferments.

 

Andrew thought that I might have been referring to H2S rather than FSO2 as well. I am referring to the more antiseptic sulphury or perhaps sulphurous smell such as when mixing a metabisulphite solution. That is a gaseous expression of FSO2 (SO2 gas), I believe, and FSO2 is usually bound to the solids in the lees in short order (weeks usually) I believe. The smell certainly goes away in due course.

I have provided the following response to Andrew’s email so you get where I was coming from. 😊

Warm regards

Steve

***

Thank you Andrew.

Still observing and still learning, as we do.

That said, I wasn’t referring to “rotten egg” smells (H2S) though. I was referring to the sorts of ‘sulphury’ or ‘sulphurous’ smells similar to those that emanate from sodium metabisulphite solution. I associate it with an antiseptic smell these days.

EC1118 is known to produce a fair amount of SO2 (up to 30ppm) as outlined on the product description. My observation that the sulphur “slight sulphurous” smell dissipates over time is as recorded in a number of texts and cidermakers’ observations. This is in fact due to binding of the FSO2, if I have this correct. In your text on p101 second paragraph I see SO2 production during fermentation is briefly covered Andrew. Similarly, Claude’s text mentions this in some detail in the section on ‘How sulphite works’.

In any case, thanks for heading off any potential misinformation.

Warm regards
Steve

***

 

 

Steve Drew PhD MHEd                            ORCiD: 0000-0002-8601-9815

Senior Lecturer - Professional Learning and Networks for Teachers

Tasmanian Institute of Learning and Teaching | Academic Division

University of Tasmania

Private Bag 133 Hobart TAS 7001

T +61 3 6226 2387 | M +61 416 158 367

utas.edu.au

 

 

From: 'Liam Tinston' via Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2021 5:15 PM
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Bottle fermentation with EC-1118 & free SO2 levels

 

Hi Steve,

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[Steve Drew]

Hi again Liam,

Actually, rereading Johan’s post and your response I see that I was rather off topic. My apologies!

Cheers

Steve

 

 

Steve Drew PhD MHEd                            ORCiD: 0000-0002-8601-9815

Senior Lecturer - Professional Learning and Networks for Teachers

Tasmanian Institute of Learning and Teaching | Academic Division

University of Tasmania

Private Bag 133 Hobart TAS 7001

T +61 3 6226 2387 | M +61 416 158 367

utas.edu.au

 

 

From: 'Liam Tinston' via Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2021 5:15 PM
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Bottle fermentation with EC-1118 & free SO2 levels

 

Hi Steve,

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
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[Steve Drew]

Apologies Andrew,

My misunderstanding was from not reading the Johan/Liam posts properly. I was rather off topic. 😐

Probably a diabetic moment.

Steve

 

 

 

Steve Drew PhD MHEd                            ORCiD: 0000-0002-8601-9815

Senior Lecturer - Professional Learning and Networks for Teachers

Tasmanian Institute of Learning and Teaching | Academic Division

University of Tasmania

Private Bag 133 Hobart TAS 7001

T +61 3 6226 2387 | M +61 416 158 367

utas.edu.au

 

 

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com <cider-w...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Andrew Lea
Sent: Wednesday, 28 July 2021 7:17 AM
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Bottle fermentation with EC-1118 & free SO2 levels

 

i think there is a misunderstanding here. You seem to be confusing free SO2 with sulphide taints (H2S). The two are not the same and have different origins. 

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[Johan]

Thanks for replies really good information!

As I wrote I have never had any problems with adding EC-1118 & 25mg/l SO2 in bottling so I was surprised to found out that Lalvin stated such a low SO2 recommendation. Liam's post got me thinking thought that maybe 10 - 15mg/l is enough. As for temperatures; I have passive cellar temperatures varying now from 15 to 20 degrees. I could wait a couple of months to get that perfect 12 to 15 degrees but I still have 2020 vintage on gross lees in barrel that did undergo malo with just tiny amount of added SO2 and for my preferences it's in a good spot for bottling now. I wouldn't like to risk it. Tough choices :D

Thanks again,

Johan

[gareth chapman]

I have never found the addition of sulphite to be anywhere near a satisfactory method for preventing refermentation, and gave up years ago. Even alongside sorbate, which is supposed to be the tried and tested method, and  with additions around 70ppm, I have always found that back-sweetened fully dry ciders will at some point and to some degree always referment, whether it takes six months or a couple of years, or whether fully sparkling or just frizzante.

Best
Gareth

[Andrew Lea]

Just to add some general comments on this thread ...

1. Fermenting yeasts like EC1118 are pretty sulphite tolerant. As Claude’s figures show, they will happily stand 75 ppm free SO2 in a secondary cider fermentation, although the pH also needs to be taken into consideration because it is “molecular SO2” that really matters.  Bear in mind though that the alcohol level of a grape wine undergoing a secondary fermentation is likely to be at least double that of a fermented cider and this will diminish its sulphite tolerance compared to cider (“hurdle” effect).

2. The paradox of sulphite treated juice fermenting faster and more completely than untreated juice, as Claude describes, has been known for many years and is covered in both the wine and cider literature eg Fred Beech’s 1972 review here https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1972.tb03485.x. 

3. Many wine yeasts will produce SO2 from sulphate even where no SO2 is added.  This is covered in the literature eg https://www.infowine.com/intranet/libretti/libretto7646-01-1.pdf. Note however that this SO2 is never free, but only ever bound. The reason is that the yeast simultaneously produces acetaldehyde via its normal metabolic processes, and this instantaneously binds up the SO2. Hence it is most unlikely that such SO2 could be detected sensorially. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 28 Jul 2021, at 10:36, Johan <whyno...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for replies really good information!

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