Interstem Cider Trees

[WV Mountaineer Jack]

We got our hands on some EMLA 9/ EMAL 111 interstems for grafting this year for some new cider trees. These interstems are often advertised as having the benefit of a dwarf top with the roots of 111 and not needing to be staked. It seems to me that the sense is that you get a great big rootball like a regular EMLA 111 tree but with a dwarf top. I think this is a bit misleading as a dwarf top isnt going to be able to support a big root sytem. One of the problems people seem to run into with these interstms is that the 111 suckers badly, my guess is that the roots are trying to feed themselves since they cant get enough from the top. I have some 10 year old M111 trees with absolutely no suckers at all. The tree always strives to stay in balance, so a little top is only going to have a small root system. Is the real advantage of the interstems that the M111 roots are just tougher, better to survive than the roots of the M9? Has anyone planted cider trees on these interstems? We have woolly apple aphids and heavy clay soil especially on top of our orchard so I was hoping these interstems would be more able to thrive there with M111 roots. WVMJ Zone 6, USA

[Wes Cherry]

I have cider trees on interstem.  Mostly g11/mm118, and a few on b9/118.  They are 2 and 3 years old.   

The g11/mm111 do sucker quite a bit - much more than my mm111 trees, so your imbalanced bottom/top theory fits what I'm seeing.  Then again the b9/b118 doesn't sucker much.

First year vigor with the interstems is quite a bit less than singly grafted trees on g11 or mm111.   It seems the tree is still busy mending the multiple graft unions.  Vigor picks up significantly on year 2 and even more on year 3.

Soil is heavy and quite wet in this orchard.   The mm111 seems to be a good match there so far.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

On Sep 1, 2014, at 10:51 AM, WV Mountaineer Jack <wvm...@gmail.com> wrote:

We got our hands on some EMLA 9/ EMAL 111 interstems for grafting this year for some new cider trees. These interstems are often advertised as having the benefit of a dwarf top with the roots of 111 and not needing to be staked. It seems to me that the sense is that you get a great big rootball like a regular EMLA 111 tree but with a dwarf top. I think this is a bit misleading as a dwarf top isnt going to be able to support a big root sytem. One of the problems people seem to run into with these interstms is that the 111 suckers badly, my guess is that the roots are trying to feed themselves since they cant get enough from the top. I have some 10 year old M111 trees with absolutely no suckers at all. The tree always strives to stay in balance, so a little top is only going to have a small root system. Is the real advantage of the interstems that the M111 roots are just tougher, better to survive than the roots of the M9? Has anyone planted cider trees on these interstems? We have woolly apple aphids and heavy clay soil especially on top of our orchard so I was hoping these interstems would be more able to thrive there with M111 roots. WVMJ Zone 6, USA

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[WV Mountaineer Jack]

Hi Wes, did you guys plant your trees so the graft union with the interstem is buried or leave it out of the ground? Cummins nursery says to bury the interstem junction to reduce the suckering so we are going to give that a try. THanks, Jack

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[Wes Cherry]

I did both.  Some are  buried so the inter stem will root, some are not.   The soil was very wet at planting (water level near soil level), so I didn’t feel comfortable burying some that deep.   I haven’t made note if burying the inter stem affects root suckering.   I will look closer next time I am in the orchard sucker pruning.

-Wes

[WV Mountaineer Jack]

Thanks Wes. We plan to put ours out this fall, it seems some people have sucess with interstems and others not so much. It may be their expectations are different if they are only used to planting one kind of rootstock. We have some G11/m111 that are only a year old but they look perfectly like any other tree.

Visited your webpage, very nice. How do you pick enough Manchurians to make a big batch of them? We have a few trees for pollination and got some fruit off of one and they are very interesting and then I see you guys feature them in one of your ciders, very interesting.

WVMJ

[Richard Reeves]

I planted 60 trees, twelve cider varieties, 2013 on G11-MM111. So far suckering has been at a minimum, probably less than ten percent of the trees. I have noticed that as many or perhaps more suckers have come from the G-11 interstem rather than the lower MM-111 portion of the tree. None are staked, a few needed temporary stake assistance this spring but are fine now. One has to wonder if the MM-111 isn't dwarfed by the G-11 on top of it? I mean why wouldn't the equation work both ways? There seems to be a lack of information on this issue. As my trees haven't suckered badly and my pruning was essentially zero in year one with the exception of trimming down the central leader perhaps some of the suckering people are reporting might be due to over-vigorous pruning early in the tree's life? I have other trees on M-7 that sucker horribly if heavily pruned. FWIW I drip irrigate the interstem trees regularly and often, approx. 40 gal./week  so lack of soil moisture is probably not contributing to a lack of vigor, i.e. suckering. Soil is clay loam. As to depth of planting: because I have a hot, dry climate I like to leave a watering doughnut around young trees so I can flood irrigate a couple of times a year in the first year, so the interstem portion just got half-buried with mulch/compost this year. This should delay the precocity and dwarfing effect of the interstem, leaving the MM-111 portion more dominant but even so I have had very little suckering. I'm new to orcharding, but so far I am very happy with these interstem trees.

Richard Reeves,  Lake County California  USDA Zone 9A

[Dick Dunn]

A bizarre side-note on interstem grafting: Be sure you understand the
point of the interstem and which one goes where!!

We had a county extension agent (now gone, thankfully for several reasons)
who was showing people how to do a Bud-9/Bud-118 interstem...but he was
having them use 9 as the rootstock and 118 as the interstem!

Don't know if these are used in the old world, but 9 is dwarfing while 118
is nearly full-size.

The idea with the proper combination--118 as rootstock and 9 as interstem--
is to get a strong root system from the 118 where soil conditions may be
challenging, but then to get a small tree above.

The effect of what he suggested--a 9 rootstock with 118 interstem--would be
a dwarfed root system under a tree trying to be full-size. What happens?
"He's no fun...he fell right over!" (arcane ref to '70's humor) In
addition to being small, Bud-9 doesn't anchor particularly well.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[WV Mountaineer Jack]

Yes dwarfing must go both ways, its just the tree keeping in balance right? The B118/B9 is funny, complete lack of any understanding of dwarfing rootstocks, the actual opposite of what makes any sense. I fee sorry for the people who followed this guys advice.  We also have some G11/M111 and they are growing very well, cant tell them from any other tree. Where we live there are to many people who only do things traditionally, just like their parents did, it was good enough then and works now. I dont know if these interstems are to much of a stretch of imagination for some of them and they couldnt adapt.  I tend to be drawn more to experimenters, more interesting pathways whether things work out as planned or not! WVMJ