Batteries 101 for the 355...
Jon Vez
Here is my take on the optimal setup for the electrical setup for the 355. These observations are based on commonly accepted practices in the marine industry. Marine electrical systems are somewhat of a passion of mine and I have employed what I believe to be best practices on my last two boats and am in the process of finishing up optimizing the 355’s electrical system. I will not describe how to implement these suggestions in this post, however if anyone has an interest in that aspect, or want specifics to provide to a certified marine electrician, I will be happy to provide those details. Hopefully this is not to confusing!
For those of you who have an interest in this stuff, there are two excellent resources that are well worth checking out.
There is a wealth of great information on the Catalina 34 site, our Catalina Association hosts. This link is specific to this topic:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html
Additionally, this is a site from someone who I consider the single most valuable resource when it comes to all things related to boat maintenance and I respect his advice more than anyone when it comes to electrical systems on a boat. He is simply the authority on this subject:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects
The 355 is typically shipped with 2 standard 4D batteries. If you have a bow thruster or generator, you probably have a 3rd Group 27 battery, however I will focus primarily on addressing the two battery setup.
The designation ‘4D’ refers to the physical dimensions of the battery, not necessarily the capacity. A 4D is typically rated around 200 Amp Hours. Although ours are not quite that, I am going to use 200 AH to keep the math simple.
1. Combine the two batteries in Parallel, creating one large 400AH house Bank—this will be referred to as ‘Bank 1’
2. Install a Reserve Battery (some would call this a starting battery, but you will see why I refer to it as ‘Reserve’)—this will be referred to as ‘Bank 2’. This should be a Group 27 battery.
3. Run *ALL* charging sources (shore power, Alternator, solar, wind etc) to the House Bank. (Bank 1)
4. Install Fuses on all Positive cables attached directly to the batteries
**NB: This is critical. Even if you do not make any of these changes, make sure any Positive (Red) wire running to your batteries are properly fused. I am not sure if Catalina is fusing the batteries out of the factory now, but my boat was not fused. I did see a new 355 at the New England Boat Show that was fused.
5. Although not critical, I would highly recommend installing a proper Battery Monitor to manage your electrical system. Although the digital Volt/Amp meters are nice, they are only reading real time information. This does not give you the information you need to determine the State of Charge and several other useful data points to properly manage your electrical system.
With this setup, your Battery Switch will operate like this:
Engine On/OffàON when using the engine, OFF when the engine is turned off
1-2-Both Switch:
Set to ‘1’àFor all House Loads AND Engine Starting. This will be the setting you use for everything.
Set to ‘2’àOnly use for emergency engine starting.
Set to ‘Both’àUse only if you ever need to combine House Bank and Reserve Bank. You should never have to use this setting.
If you keep your fridge, AC etc on when away from the boat, leave the setting at ‘1’; if you turn everything off, you can turn the battery switch to off and still charge the batteries via shore power as long as the appropriate circuit breakers are on for shore power.
This is the logic behind these recommendations:
1. One large Bank will provide much more battery capacity *and* charge more efficiently (even with the stock alternator—see below). Think of it this way:
--It is common practice to NEVER discharge your batteries below 50%. Doing so will severely limit their useful life, not to mention the risk of not being able to start the engine. So from a usage perspective, we now have in effect 200AH of useful capacity (50% of 400AH) for all house loads AND engine starting. Whereas if you use one battery for house loads and one battery in reserve to start the engine as it is currently set up, then you only have a useful capacity of 100AH for your House loads. So by combining the two Batteries, we have doubled our useable capacity, and;
2. The larger House Bank will have a smaller percentage of discharge and therefore be able to be charged more efficiently. The easiest way to conceptualize this is by considering this example:
If you discharge your single 200 AH battery by 100AH (50%), you will need to recoup 100 AH via your charging source (shore power, engine, etc) to bring your battery back to ‘Full’. If you discharge your new combined house bank by 100AH, you have only discharged the House Bank by 25% (300AH left of the total 400 AH capacity). The reason it is more effective to recoup the 25% that was discharged vs the 50% is due to the nature of battery charging curves. Without getting too much into the weeds, a battery will take an initial charge fairly quickly, but it takes a substantially longer period of charging to get the last 15% of the charge into the battery. Basically the deeper the discharge as a percent of battery capacity, the longer it will take to top it up. Additionally, deeply discharging batteries significantly reduces their useful life. I am only using the 50% as an example as I would not advocate bringing your batteries to 50% on a regular basis.
Even the stock, internally regulated alternator at a rating of 65 Amps will take care of charging your 400A house bank more efficiently than alternating between the two individual 200 AH batteries. A very common practice is to set the Battery Switch to ‘Both’ while under power to charge all batteries with the stock setup. The difference with the proposed setup is that your Switch setting of ‘1’ will now *always* be the 400 AH House Bank and your Switch Setting of ‘2’ will now be your Reserve Battery. If you set the Switch to ‘All’ you are now bringing all batteries on line. Another factor to consider when using the stock setup is that when you combine your 2 batteries to start your engine, the battery that is more depleted will immediately try to balance itself with the stronger battery. This presents the risk of draining your charged battery into the battery you have been using for house loads. When the batteries are fairly new, this isn’t a big deal, but over time you run the risk of draining both batteries and not being able to start your engine simply by switching to ‘Both’!
So what is the ‘Reserve’ battery for? Just that, it is an emergency backup should your large House Battery become discharged to the point that you cannot start your engine. It is only there for an emergency. So in practice, you leave the Battery Switch on ‘1’ for everything--that is, House Loads and Engine Starting. In the event you have a dead house bank, you switch to ‘2’ and you have a fresh, isolated battery to start your engine and get you home.
3. By connecting all charging sources to your batteries you are creating a more fail-safe setup. Your Shore Charger is already connected directly to your batteries, so this leaves the Alternator. The additional benefit of wiring your alternator directly to your House Bank is you eliminate the danger of blowing the diodes on your alternator by accidently turning the Battery Switch and disconnecting it from the batteries. This way, the alternator is bypassing the switch altogether and improving efficacy of getting all of those amps into the batteries (less resistance since you have a direct connection).
So how does one charge the Reserve Battery while motoring? There are several devices designed to do this. Basically an Automatic Charging Relayy (ACR) is a very simple device that is wired between the two batteries and is designed to automatically combine and disconnect the two battery banks as needed. They charge the batteries when a charging source is detected and isolate them when the charging stops. My preference is a device from Xantrex called an Echo Charger. Without getting into more detail on this topic here, if anyone is interested, let me know.
So that’s it. I’ve tried to describe the optimal battery management as clearly as I can. I realize that this can seem very complicated, and can make your eyes glaze over. It can get very involved, so apologize in advance if I just added to the confusion. But as I said, I’m happy to discuss any of this in greater detail with anyone who is interested.
If you do nothing else, simply combining your house bank and adding a Reserve Battery will go a long way in extending the useful life of your batteries AND providing you with more power to enjoy the toys on your boat. In fact, these changes will go a long way in negating the need for additional charging sources if you choose not to get into adding solar, wind or generator. Even if you have a generator, this setup will benefit you in that you will not have to run them nearly as long.
I will typically run my engine for an hour every other day when we are cruising. We typically cruise for 2-3 weeks at a time away from shore power and have not found the need for additional charging sources. I haven’t found a need for a larger, externally regulated alternator or Solar—yet. I do envision installing solar at some point in the future though…
Regards,
Jon Vez
Solstice #17
Brent Landry
This is excellent. I like this type of work too.
For monitoring I installed a Xantrex LinkPro battery monitor. There are a few benefits that I like:
· it can monitor both banks
· it has a visual indicator for high/low voltage and a bunch of other programmable events
· it has a built-in relay and an option for additional relays. With the relays you can get creative to automatically mitigate power problems. Some people have the relays switch off equipment if the voltage gets too low. Some people use the relays to automatically start a generator. Some people use it for audible alarms. I only use it for an LED warning light.
· it monitors the overall health of the batteries
· you can clearly see the charge or discharge rate, and easily determine the load each piece of equipment uses
Using the Echo Charger or the Blue Seas ACR is a great idea. I added solar power, which I will get in to more in a moment, and I found numerous solar charge controllers that can prioritize a bank and then switch to a second bank. Perhaps this is redundant if you have an ACR installed. I don’t know the details of how an ACR is implemented. In my mind I think ideally you would want all your charging to be implemented the same way, and leverage the ACR.
I love having solar power. We used to run the engine every night to ensure a full bank for the night. Now we can go days without needing the engine to charge. The battery monitor provides the extra piece of mind that all is well. The silent bliss of free power from the sun is very much enjoyed by my wife. The cost of solar power is dropping every year so it is quite affordable now. Some people even use flexible panels that are snapped on to the bimini, with no frame needed.
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Brad Sclar
Sailed down the Gulf (or the “Guff” as they say down here) from Tampa to Venice today under a hard bright blue sky accompanied by a booming northerly too-cold wind on the quarter and growing seas under main and jib only: too rough for the chute. We surfed for 8 hours and averaged 6.5 knots the whole time, and hit, to my astonishment, 8.4 knots SOG several times. 8.4! 17 knots of wind – some damn big seas. The Peanut picked up her skirts – the old gal knows how to walk, showing off her elegant ankles, dancing away in the surf, scaring me now and again.
When the hull hummed I knew we were flying down the whale-road at 7 knots or more; the sun shone rough shod on the green agitated sea, ancient in color as Beowulf’s shield - it foamingly forbade the use of the auto pilot; I shivered alternately with cold and delight; a lone dolphin arced calmly by the bow, undismayed.
Hey, I love my boat!
Sailing is the answer – what was the question?
Fantastic technical discussions! Please keep it up – wonderful!
Brad Sclar, Cap’n of the Peanut when Carolyn ain’t on deck… Happy Sailing!
Jon Vez
Brent,
I used the LinkPro on my last two boats and they do work great. I have become a big fan of the Victron BM though. It is an easier install with only one Ethernet like cable as opposed to those 10 little wires the LP requires, with the same functionality.
I’m curious as to where you installed the Shunt for your LinkPro? One of the things I don’t like about the boat is the limited space available around the Battery compartment. Also would be interested in your Solar Panel location. There is a company in Maine who will sew a panel into the Bimini—very neat installation, but not cheap…yet…..
The reason I prefer the Echo Charger over the ACR is because when the ACR combines the Banks, it provides the same voltage to both the large House Bank and the smaller Starting (Reserve) Battery. This tends to slightly under charge the large bank and slightly overcharge the smaller. To be clear, this doesn’t cause any real issues as I used one on my last boat for 12 years with absolutely no problems. However, the EC is a bit unique in that it will provide the proper voltage to the House Bank and basically trickle charge the smaller bank. It has the same combine/isolate capability as the ACR, however will only combine when the small battery needs it, and is easier to install. Either way, any of these devices are the only way to charge via one charging source and a great addition….
Brent Landry
The solar panel uses “Pull the Dot” one way snaps to attach and remove the panel from the bimini. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utcyUCU62QI
I wouldn’t sew the panel on for a couple of reasons. If the panel needed maintenance you want to remove it. If you want to collapse/fold the bimini you need to remove the panel. The flexible panels roll up but will break if you try to squish them when collapsing the bimini.
One downside is that most of flexible panels have lower wattage per square inch compared to rigid panels. I get enough juice for my short trips, however if you are doing long duration passages that consume more sustained power loads you may need more. Make sure you know your consumption rates, and expected output of the panel(s). My experience is that I get on average 85% of the max published output during a bright day in Canada. Here is an example: http://www.powerfilmsolar.com/products/rollable-portable-remote/r28
Michael Downs
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Jon Vez
Mike,
I installed mine where the factory would—that is in the space between the Hot Water Tank and the fresh water pressure pump under the starboard side settee. I installed an AGM Group 27. No worries about mixing battery types in this installation as the charging regimens for Wet and AGM’s are close enough where it is not an issue, especially the way the battery is used.
Note that this would not be the case with Gel batteries as these have quite a different charging requirement and can be ruined quite easily if not careful.
The reason I used an AGM is so I wouldn’t have to worry about building a proper battery box and I didn’t want the hassle of checking the water in the cells in that location. I used a Battery Holder from West Marine to tie the battery down—I used the base of the Battery Holder as the template to create a plywood base, which I glassed in. If you are interested in the specifics of creating the base, let me know.
In its simplest form, the wiring is quite straightforward. Take the POS from the Reserve Battery and attach it to either the “1” or the “2” post on the back of the Battery Switch (this is personal preference). I use “1” for the Reserve, “2” for the House to remind me that the House Bank is made up of 2 batteries. Remove the original wire that went from the “1” post to the House Bank. Now you have one POS from the Reserve Bank to post “1” on the switch and you leave the original wire as is for the “2”. When you are done, you will have one POS wire to each battery bank. Finally run a NEG from the new Reserve Battery to the House Bank. Done.
Even if you choose not to use an ACR/combiner or echo charger to automatically charge the Reserve battery, you can top it up once a month or so by setting your switch to ‘Both’ for a few hours either via shore power or the Alternator.
If you look at the POS stud in the picture, notice the Blue Seas MRBF fuses and holders. The holders simply attach to the battery stud. Since these are 2/0 cables, I use 300A fuses. These MRBF’s are a really great way to fuse your batteries. Hope this helps and let me know if you need any more info.
Regards,
Jon
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Michael Downs
<start battery location 2.JPG><Reserve Battery.JPG>
Michael Downs
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Jon Vez
I put it on the wall next to where the starting battery is located. The device is only about 6”x6”, so I epoxied a piece of plywood against the bulkhead. If you notice the bundle of 12AWG wire in the photo I sent previously, this is for the EC. I would recommend running that wire at the same time you bring the battery cables over to the House Bank.
One of the things I’ve struggled with is finding an optimum location to put buss bars, shunts etc near the House bank. Because the battery compartment is such a form fit for the batteries, there isn’t an ideal location to locate electrical items. Has anyone found a place near the Switches/House Bank?
Thanks,
Michael Downs
Jon Vez
Mike,
You connect the NEG to the battery terminal on the House Bank. It’s important to use the same gauge as the existing wire, so you want 2/0 AWG. Also, when connecting wires to your new Paralleled House Bank, you want to connect all charging sources to the Same POS terminal on the House Bank and all NEG to the same terminal on the opposite battery. This will ensure that all cells are getting evenly charged/discharged—basically wire it as if it were one big battery. This is why I am hoping to find a place to install Buss Bars; it would allow for a much cleaner installation….don’t hesitate to ask if you have further questions…..
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mra...@aol.com
I used to believe this about the difference between ACRs and Echo Chargers. Maine Sail disabused me of that concept quite clearly:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7052.0.html
We welcome all C355 skippers to peruse our C34 website for information that is pertinent to your boats. Many issues are not necessarily boat-specific, like lectrical and plumbing systems.
Sam Paul
Jon,
My carbon monoxide detector alerted me to an issue with my battery bank. It appears one of my batteries is leaking. In the spirit of not just replacing a leaking battery which may be a symptom of something else (e.g. poor charger).
I have read your previous and recognize the benefits of making the bank parallel and adding a reserve battery. However, the boat is on an inland lake and rarely out for more than a single evening days, so I just want to keep it as simple/safe as possible. If you don't mind I have three questions:
1. How should I investigate the "real" culprit - if it is a charger issue vs battery just failing after 3.5 years. I live in Texas and the heat is very high in the summer.
2. If I want to stay simple, is the benefit of parallel configuration the most useful thing I can do?
3. Any recommendations on brand of battery to replace the factory ones?
Thanks
Sam
Jon Vez
Hi Sam,
A couple of questions—First step is to determine Route Cause…
--Can you identify where the batteries are leaking? Are they leaking from the caps or a crack in the casing? Does it appear that the battery acid has boiled off? Do you have a Digital Multimeter and know how to use it? (Don’t mean to insult with this question, but have to ask). The purpose of these questions is to try to determine the route cause of your problems (charger, poor connections, shore power connection issues etc). Not sure how comfortable you are with electrics, so if you aren’t sure it would be best to bring in a certified marine electrician.
--The simplest way to wire your batteries is the way the factory installed them. However there are downsides and as long as you understand them, you can make the choice based on your needs. The biggest downside to the factory installed setup is that your batteries will not last as long as if you were to parallel (due to the % of discharge). If you only day sail, are hooked to shore power you can certainly get by with using the 1-2-Both setup as is.
--As for battery choice, I would love to recommend switching the monster 4Ds with 6V true Deep Cycle, but I can’t because I haven’t figured out if they will fit in the dedicated battery box. You can choose between AGM’s such as Lifelines (due to your use profile, these are a viable option but are very expensive and you need to understand what the downside is. In an effort to keep this *somewhat* brief, if this is of interest I can provide you with more detail). As for Wet cells, Rolls, Deka/East Penn, Johnson Controls, US Battery and others. Many battery manufacturers relabel there batteries, so this gets a bit tricky. You can even consider dropping down to a Grp 31 and lose some Amp Hours, but gain a more robust battery (true deep cycle). As you see, not necessarily a simple question, but I can help you with specifics once we get to route cause. As always, I would point you to Maine Sail’s Compass Marine site if you want the facts on all things battery related.
I understand that not everyone is interested in getting into the DIY bits of this stuff, so I would be happy to walk you through my opinions in greater detail offline…
Sorry for asking more questions than answers….
Jon
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Sam Paul
Thanks for the questions.
1. Definitely leaking from the cracks of the casing of 1 battery.
2. I do have a digital multimeter but only know how to use it to check output simply. I have very little valuable knowledge in electrical understanding.
3. I am interested in getting more life out of the batteries. Seems 3.5 years is awfully soon to have a battery go bad but I may be uneducated on what to expect. The AGM may be interesting.
Thanks
Sam
Ken Kloeber
To: catalina355@googlegroups com
Subject: Re: [Catalina 355:1519] Batteries 101 for the 355...
KWKloeber
On Monday, October 20, 2014 5:05:19 PM UTC-4, KWKloeber wrote:
Sam,No, 3.5 is normal, especially with a cracked(?) case? Very unusual.RC really likes the US Battery products -- he says they are as good as Trojan, but more reasonable in price. But, basically you get what you pay for (sometimes.) Johnson has apparently cheapened up the rebranded batteries sold at major outlets, but then again they are priced a whole lot better than Trojans -- but won't give as much service life.For years I swore by DieHard Group 31 deep cycles, and they were great as far as service life and amp-hours (one of he highest. But they are changed and I haven't tried them since then. Also, I have used "cheap" WallyWorld group 31 deep cycle MAXX (rebranded Johnson) and expect a bad one every so often that doesn't last 3 years - usually a dead or shorted cell. In fact right now I have a 2011 MAXX that is bad with that problem. I've gad 2 others like that -- the hand-held and super-super analyzer shows it's fine, but clearly the cells weren't accepting a charge. I had to go to the regional manager to get it replaced under warrently. even though the store manager saw with his eyes that the cells battery wouldn't charge.The USB Grp 31 wet cell is 130 A-H, very good!You will definitely be better off with true deep cycle batteries, no matter what.Ken K
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Sam Paul
Thank you. I will see if reason other than just a bad battery
Sent: Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:33 PM
To: catalina355@googlegroups com
Subject: Re: [Catalina 355:1519] Batteries 101 for the 355...
Thanks for the questions.
1. Definitely leaking from the cracks of the casing of 1
battery.
2. I do have a digital multimeter but only know how to use it to
check output simply. I have very little valuable knowledge in electrical
understanding.
3. I am interested in getting more life out of the batteries.
Seems 3.5 years is awfully soon to have a battery go bad but I may be uneducated
on what to expect. The AGM may be interesting.
Thanks
Sam
On October 20, 2014, at 6:23 AM, Jon Vez <jon...@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi Sam,
A couple of questions—First step is to determine Route Cause…
--Can you identify where the batteries are leaking? Are they leaking from the caps or a crack in the casing? Does it appear that the battery acid has boiled off? Do you have a Digital Multimeter and know how to use it? (Don’t mean to insult with this question, but have to ask). The purpose of these questions is to try to determine the route cause of your problems (charger, poor connections, shore power connection issues etc). Not sure how comfortable you are with electrics, so if you aren’t sure it would be best to bring in a certified marine electrician.
--The simplest way to wire your batteries is the way the factory installed them. However there are downsides and as long as you understand them, you can make the choice based on your needs. The biggest downside to the factory installed setup is that your batteries will not last as long as if you were to parallel (due to the % of discharge). If you only day sail, are hooked to shore power you can certainly get by with using the 1-2-Both setup as is.
--As for battery choice, I would love to recommend switching the monster 4Ds with 6V true Deep Cycle, but I can’t because I haven’t figured out if they will fit in the dedicated battery box. You can choose between AGM’s such as Lifelines (due to your use profile, these are a viable option but are very expensive and you need to understand what the downside is. In an effort to keep this *somewhat* brief, if this is of interest I can provide you with more detail). As for Wet cells, Rolls, Deka/East Penn, Johnson Controls, US Battery and others. Many battery manufacturers relabel there batteries, so this gets a bit tricky. You can even consider dropping down to a Grp 31 and lose some Amp Hours, but gain a more robust battery (true deep cycle). As you see, not necessarily a simple question, but I can help you with specifics once we get to route cause. As always, I would point you to Maine Sail’s Compass Marine site if you want the facts on all things battery related.
I understand that not everyone is interested in getting into the DIY bits of this stuff, so I would be happy to walk you through my opinions in greater detail offline…
Sorry for asking more questions than answers….
Jon
From: catal...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:catal...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Sam Paul
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:08
PM
To: catal...@googlegroups.com
Cc:
catal...@googlegroups.com
Subject:
RE: [Catalina 355:1502] Batteries 101 for the 355...
Jon,
My carbon monoxide detector alerted me to an issue with my battery bank. It appears one of my batteries is leaking. In the spirit of not just replacing a leaking battery which may be a symptom of something else (e.g. poor charger).
I have read your previous and recognize the benefits of making the bank parallel and adding a reserve battery. However, the boat is on an inland lake and rarely out for more than a single evening days, so I just want to keep it as simple/safe as possible. If you don't mind I have three questions:
1. How should I investigate the "real" culprit - if it is a charger issue vs battery just failing after 3.5 years. I live in Texas and the heat is very high in the summer.
2. If I want to stay simple, is the benefit of parallel configuration the most useful thing I can do?
3. Any recommendations on brand of battery to replace the factory ones?
Thanks
Sam
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Jon Vez
Glad you clarified Ken as I would think that is way too short a life—would be indicative of poor battery management/bad batteries. I typically see 7-8 years. Waiting for these to die so I can replace with better quality/more Amp hrs…..
From: catal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:catal...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 6:00 PM
To: catal...@googlegroups.com
Cc: KWKl...@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Catalina 355:1522] Batteries 101 for the 355...
No, 3.5 is NOT normal, especially with a cracked(?) case? Very unusual.
Ooops. Sorry!
KK
On Monday, October 20, 2014 5:05:19 PM UTC-4, KWKloeber wrote:
Sam,
No, 3.5 is normal, especially with a cracked(?) case? Very unusual.
RC really likes the US Battery products -- he says they are as good as Trojan, but more reasonable in price. But, basically you get what you pay for (sometimes.) Johnson has apparently cheapened up the rebranded batteries sold at major outlets, but then again they are priced a whole lot better than Trojans -- but won't give as much service life.
For years I swore by DieHard Group 31 deep cycles, and they were great as far as service life and amp-hours (one of he highest. But they are changed and I haven't tried them since then. Also, I have used "cheap" WallyWorld group 31 deep cycle MAXX (rebranded Johnson) and expect a bad one every so often that doesn't last 3 years - usually a dead or shorted cell. In fact right now I have a 2011 MAXX that is bad with that problem. I've gad 2 others like that -- the hand-held and super-super analyzer shows it's fine, but clearly the cells weren't accepting a charge. I had to go to the regional manager to get it replaced under warrently. even though the store manager saw with his eyes that the cells battery wouldn't charge.
The USB Grp 31 wet cell is 130 A-H, very good!
You will definitely be better off with true deep cycle batteries, no matter what.
Ken K
From: catal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:catal...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam Paul
Sent: Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:33 PM
To: catalina355@googlegroups com
Subject: Re: [Catalina 355:1519] Batteries 101 for the 355...
Thanks for the questions.
1. Definitely leaking from the cracks of the casing of 1 battery.
2. I do have a digital multimeter but only know how to use it to check output simply. I have very little valuable knowledge in electrical understanding.
3. I am interested in getting more life out of the batteries. Seems 3.5 years is awfully soon to have a battery go bad but I may be uneducated on what to expect. The AGM may be interesting.
Thanks
Sam
On October 20, 2014, at 6:23 AM, Jon Vez <jon...@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi Sam,
A couple of questions—First step is to determine Route Cause…
--Can you identify where the batteries are leaking? Are they leaking from the caps or a crack in the casing? Does it appear that the battery acid has boiled off? Do you have a Digital Multimeter and know how to use it? (Don’t mean to insult with this question, but have to ask). The purpose of these questions is to try to determine the route cause of your problems (charger, poor connections, shore power connection issues etc). Not sure how comfortable you are with electrics, so if you aren’t sure it would be best to bring in a certified marine electrician.
--The simplest way to wire your batteries is the way the factory installed them. However there are downsides and as long as you understand them, you can make the choice based on your needs. The biggest downside to the factory installed setup is that your batteries will not last as long as if you were to parallel (due to the % of discharge). If you only day sail, are hooked to shore power you can certainly get by with using the 1-2-Both setup as is.
--As for battery choice, I would love to recommend switching the monster 4Ds with 6V true Deep Cycle, but I can’t because I haven’t figured out if they will fit in the dedicated battery box. You can choose between AGM’s such as Lifelines (due to your use profile, these are a viable option but are very expensive and you need to understand what the downside is. In an effort to keep this *somewhat* brief, if this is of interest I can provide you with more detail). As for Wet cells, Rolls, Deka/East Penn, Johnson Controls, US Battery and others. Many battery manufacturers relabel there batteries, so this gets a bit tricky. You can even consider dropping down to a Grp 31 and lose some Amp Hours, but gain a more robust battery (true deep cycle). As you see, not necessarily a simple question, but I can help you with specifics once we get to route cause. As always, I would point you to Maine Sail’s Compass Marine site if you want the facts on all things battery related.
I understand that not everyone is interested in getting into the DIY bits of this stuff, so I would be happy to walk you through my opinions in greater detail offline…
Sorry for asking more questions than answers….
Jon
From: catal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:catal...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam Paul
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:08 PM
To: catal...@googlegroups.com
Cc: catal...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Catalina 355:1502] Batteries 101 for the 355...
Jon,
My carbon monoxide detector alerted me to an issue with my battery bank. It appears one of my batteries is leaking. In the spirit of not just replacing a leaking battery which may be a symptom of something else (e.g. poor charger).
I have read your previous and recognize the benefits of making the bank parallel and adding a reserve battery. However, the boat is on an inland lake and rarely out for more than a single evening days, so I just want to keep it as simple/safe as possible. If you don't mind I have three questions:
1. How should I investigate the "real" culprit - if it is a charger issue vs battery just failing after 3.5 years. I live in Texas and the heat is very high in the summer.
2. If I want to stay simple, is the benefit of parallel configuration the most useful thing I can do?
3. Any recommendations on brand of battery to replace the factory ones?
Thanks
Sam
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Jon Vez
Sam,
Without being presumptuous, it sounds like the crack led to the premature failure. Do your batteries feel excessively hot when charging? I know you are in Texas and temperature compensation becomes an important factor in battery management.
From: catal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:catal...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam Paul
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 4:33 PM
To: catalina355@googlegroups com
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Sam Paul
Nothing excessively hot. Is it worth putting in a more sophisticated charger when I replace the batteries? Also sounds like you recommend AGM type battery?
Thanks again for the advice
Ken Kloeber
To: catalina355@googlegroups com
Subject: Re: [Catalina 355:1539] Catalina 355:1519] Batteries 101 for the 355...
Jon Vez
Sam,
I assume you have the Charles 5000SP? If you can determine that the Charger is not the cause of your problem then it isn’t necessary to replace. If you need or really want to replace your charger, the ProMariner that Ken recommends in his post is an excellent choice as are those from Magnum and Victron. As far as AGMs go, I personally do like them and I use one for my Reserve Battery, but having said that I’m not sure I will go with AGM’s when my House Bank dies. The only reason I am undecided is because I would love to find a way to go with 6V, mostly to eliminate the need to move those big 4Ds around. Yes, you can put smaller 31’s in the battery box but you will lose capacity.
AGM’s can be very polarizing, so you do need some basic information before making the choice.
Bottom line is the way you use your boat, if you choose to go with AGMs they would be a fine choice. Here is what to consider:
--They are quite a bit more expensive than alternatives
--At a minimum (assuming you have the factory Charles) you need to set the switch on the back of the Charger to ‘AGM’, ideally you would want to consider a different charger—one that offers temperature compensation at the Battery (see above recommendations). The attached link for ‘Maine Sail’ does an excellent job of what you need to consider:
http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=124973
Since you obviously have to replace your batteries, and your only real consideration is that custom sized Battery box, you can go with either AGM’s or quality Wet Cells and you should be fine for 7 or so years. However, I think it is imperative that you determine what caused the original issue and whether your charger is faulty. If your charger is okay, you really have no need to swap it out.
One of the easiest tests is to take your Multimeter and using the *good* battery only, test the Voltage output at the terminals when it is in bulk and float modes. Then check at the charger’s terminals. Compare these to what the numbers are in the manual. I recently helped a friend go through this process on his Tartan. He had the same Charles charger that we have and AGM’s. We determined the problem to be his rather old wiring, but the test I described above quickly determined that the charger was fine…
Hope this helps and let me know if you have additional questions are digesting all this…
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Jon Vez
Sam,
Another item to check is your shore power connection. I know I mentioned it in passing initially, but since a couple of owners have found some issues I think it is worth taking a closer look. Check to see if the connection is hot, shows any signs of charring and take a look at your AC monitor on the panel to see what it is putting out. The SmartPlug upgrade is a worthwhile investment…..
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/catalina355/00b801cfedec%24479dea70%24d6d9bf50%24%40net.
Ken Kloeber
From: catal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:catal...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon Vez
Sent: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:35 AM
To: catal...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Catalina 355:1541] Catalina 355:1519] Batteries 101 for the 355...
Jon Vez
Exide Gold 4D’s at 160AH. The 355’s battery box is designed to fit two 4D’s with no extra room. There is some height, but the wire chases present the challenge of fitting 6V in there. Still determined to find a way though J
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Ken Kloeber
To: catal...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Catalina 355:1545] Catalina 355:1519] Batteries 101 for the 355...
Ken Kloeber
Subject: RE:Batteries 101 for the 355...
Sam,
Another item to check is your shore power connection. I know I mentioned it in passing initially, but since a couple of owners have found some issues I think it is worth taking a closer look. Check to see if the connection is hot, shows any signs of charring and take a look at your AC monitor on the panel to see what it is putting out. The SmartPlug upgrade is a worthwhile investment…..
Sam Paul
Jon and Ken
Thanks for the great information. Super helpful! I have a marine electrician going to check everything. I will let you know if we see any issues with the charger.
Sam
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Ken Magida
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Ken Kloeber
From: catal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:catal...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Magida
Sent: Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:03 PM
To: catal...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Catalina 355:1656] SmartPlug Group Purchase Deal for Catalina Owners
Michael Green
Mike
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Jon Vez
Sent from my iPad
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Ken Kloeber
To: catal...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Catalina 355:1659] SmartPlug Group Purchase Deal for Catalina Owners
Bob Story
-Bob.
Chris McDonnell s/v "Even Keel"
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 12:26:05 PM UTC-4, Jon Vez wrote:
Exide Gold 4D’s at 160AH. The 355’s battery box is designed to fit two 4D’s with no extra room. There is some height, but the wire chases present the challenge of fitting 6V in there. Still determined to find a way though J
From: catal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:catal...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 12:12 PM
To: catal...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Catalina 355:1544] Catalina 355:1519] Batteries 101 for the 355...
Jon,
What brand, AH, etc. are the OEM batteries?
Thanks,
Ken
Jon Vez
Hi Chris,
Replaced my 4D’s which were beginning their 6th season this year with 4 6V Rolls batteries. The GC2s fit fine. I also had a concern with the holes for the cables, but it is no problem. However, you will have reconfigure the hold down setup because you will have extra space. I will send you pictures of my installation…a couple of additional thoughts:
--My 4D’s were actually very healthy when I replaced them. I decided to replace them mostly as a preventative measure as we were going to do some extended cruising. I also wanted the extra capacity of the 6V. I went from 320AH to 450 with the Rolls.
--I considered the inexpensive Duracell’s that Mainesail recommends, but I got a great deal on my batteries, and Rolls are considered premium batteries, so for an extra $80 it was a no brainer for me.
--I won’t get into the AGM vs Wet Cell argument, but my charging regimen and setup would easily allow me to go in that direction if I chose. But given how easily accessible our batteries are for occasional topping up, I chose the additional AH’s. I use an AGM for my Reserve and keep it charged with an Echo Charger, so mixing the two chemistries is not a problem.
--Getting the 4D’s out was surprisingly easy. My biggest concern with this whole effort (other than space) was getting these monsters out! Going forward, handling the 6V will be a piece of cake!
Pictures coming…
Regards,
Jon Vez
Solstice #17
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Jon Vez
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CHRIS MCDONNELL
Thanks much, Jon. Very nice setup, and the picture is very helpful. I see your fuse on the positive cable, but no wires from your charger. My charger has a positive leads running to each battery. At least I think it's the charger circuit.
Chris McDonnell
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Jon Vez
Sent from my iPad
Thanks much, Jon. Very nice setup, and the picture is very helpful. I see your fuse on the positive cable, but no wires from your charger. My charger has a positive leads running to each battery. At least I think it's the charger circuit.
Chris McDonnell
On Oct 18, 2016 9:55 AM, "Jon Vez" <jon...@comcast.net> wrote:
Here are some pictures of a 6V install on my boat...
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Jon Vez
Sent from my iPad
Begin forwarded message:
From: "Jon Vez" <jon...@comcast.net>
Date: March 27, 2013 at 6:23:20 PM EDT
To: <catal...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [Catalina 355:416] Batteries 101 for the 355...
Reply-To: <catal...@googlegroups.com>
Here is my take on the optimal setup for the electrical setup for the 355. These observations are based on commonly accepted practices in the marine industry. Marine electrical systems are somewhat of a passion of mine and I have employed what I believe to be best practices on my last two boats and am in the process of finishing up optimizing the 355’s electrical system. I will not describe how to implement these suggestions in this post, however if anyone has an interest in that aspect, or want specifics to provide to a certified marine electrician, I will be happy to provide those details. Hopefully this is not to confusing!
For those of you who have an interest in this stuff, there are two excellent resources that are well worth checking out.
There is a wealth of great information on the Catalina 34 site, our Catalina Association hosts. This link is specific to this topic:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html
Additionally, this is a site from someone who I consider the single most valuable resource when it comes to all things related to boat maintenance and I respect his advice more than anyone when it comes to electrical systems on a boat. He is simply the authority on this subject:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects
The 355 is typically shipped with 2 standard 4D batteries. If you have a bow thruster or generator, you probably have a 3rd Group 27 battery, however I will focus primarily on addressing the two battery setup.
The designation ‘4D’ refers to the physical dimensions of the battery, not necessarily the capacity. A 4D is typically rated around 200 Amp Hours. Although ours are not quite that, I am going to use 200 AH to keep the math simple.
1. Combine the two batteries in Parallel, creating one large 400AH house Bank—this will be referred to as ‘Bank 1’
2. Install a Reserve Battery (some would call this a starting battery, but you will see why I refer to it as ‘Reserve’)—this will be referred to as ‘Bank 2’. This should be a Group 27 battery.
3. Run *ALL* charging sources (shore power, Alternator, solar, wind etc) to the House Bank. (Bank 1)
4. Install Fuses on all Positive cables attached directly to the batteries
**NB: This is critical. Even if you do not make any of these changes, make sure any Positive (Red) wire running to your batteries are properly fused. I am not sure if Catalina is fusing the batteries out of the factory now, but my boat was not fused. I did see a new 355 at the New England Boat Show that was fused.5. Although not critical, I would highly recommend installing a proper Battery Monitor to manage your electrical system. Although the digital Volt/Amp meters are nice, they are only reading real time information. This does not give you the information you need to determine the State of Charge and several other useful data points to properly manage your electrical system.
With this setup, your Battery Switch will operate like this:
Engine On/OffàON when using the engine, OFF when the engine is turned off
1-2-Both Switch:
Set to ‘1’àFor all House Loads AND Engine Starting. This will be the setting you use for everything.
Set to ‘2’àOnly use for emergency engine starting.
Set to ‘Both’àUse only if you ever need to combine House Bank and Reserve Bank. You should never have to use this setting.
If you keep your fridge, AC etc on when away from the boat, leave the setting at ‘1’; if you turn everything off, you can turn the battery switch to off and still charge the batteries via shore power as long as the appropriate circuit breakers are on for shore power.
This is the logic behind these recommendations:
1. One large Bank will provide much more battery capacity *and* charge more efficiently (even with the stock alternator—see below). Think of it this way:
--It is common practice to NEVER discharge your batteries below 50%. Doing so will severely limit their useful life, not to mention the risk of not being able to start the engine. So from a usage perspective, we now have in effect 200AH of useful capacity (50% of 400AH) for all house loads AND engine starting. Whereas if you use one battery for house loads and one battery in reserve to start the engine as it is currently set up, then you only have a useful capacity of 100AH for your House loads. So by combining the two Batteries, we have doubled our useable capacity, and;2. The larger House Bank will have a smaller percentage of discharge and therefore be able to be charged more efficiently. The easiest way to conceptualize this is by considering this example:
If you discharge your single 200 AH battery by 100AH (50%), you will need to recoup 100 AH via your charging source (shore power, engine, etc) to bring your battery back to ‘Full’. If you discharge your new combined house bank by 100AH, you have only discharged the House Bank by 25% (300AH left of the total 400 AH capacity). The reason it is more effective to recoup the 25% that was discharged vs the 50% is due to the nature of battery charging curves. Without getting too much into the weeds, a battery will take an initial charge fairly quickly, but it takes a substantially longer period of charging to get the last 15% of the charge into the battery. Basically the deeper the discharge as a percent of battery capacity, the longer it will take to top it up. Additionally, deeply discharging batteries significantly reduces their useful life. I am only using the 50% as an example as I would not advocate bringing your batteries to 50% on a regular basis.
Even the stock, internally regulated alternator at a rating of 65 Amps will take care of charging your 400A house bank more efficiently than alternating between the two individual 200 AH batteries. A very common practice is to set the Battery Switch to ‘Both’ while under power to charge all batteries with the stock setup. The difference with the proposed setup is that your Switch setting of ‘1’ will now *always* be the 400 AH House Bank and your Switch Setting of ‘2’ will now be your Reserve Battery. If you set the Switch to ‘All’ you are now bringing all batteries on line. Another factor to consider when using the stock setup is that when you combine your 2 batteries to start your engine, the battery that is more depleted will immediately try to balance itself with the stronger battery. This presents the risk of draining your charged battery into the battery you have been using for house loads. When the batteries are fairly new, this isn’t a big deal, but over time you run the risk of draining both batteries and not being able to start your engine simply by switching to ‘Both’!
So what is the ‘Reserve’ battery for? Just that, it is an emergency backup should your large House Battery become discharged to the point that you cannot start your engine. It is only there for an emergency. So in practice, you leave the Battery Switch on ‘1’ for everything--that is, House Loads and Engine Starting. In the event you have a dead house bank, you switch to ‘2’ and you have a fresh, isolated battery to start your engine and get you home.3. By connecting all charging sources to your batteries you are creating a more fail-safe setup. Your Shore Charger is already connected directly to your batteries, so this leaves the Alternator. The additional benefit of wiring your alternator directly to your House Bank is you eliminate the danger of blowing the diodes on your alternator by accidently turning the Battery Switch and disconnecting it from the batteries. This way, the alternator is bypassing the switch altogether and improving efficacy of getting all of those amps into the batteries (less resistance since you have a direct connection).
So how does one charge the Reserve Battery while motoring? There are several devices designed to do this. Basically an Automatic Charging Relayy (ACR) is a very simple device that is wired between the two batteries and is designed to automatically combine and disconnect the two battery banks as needed. They charge the batteries when a charging source is detected and isolate them when the charging stops. My preference is a device from Xantrex called an Echo Charger. Without getting into more detail on this topic here, if anyone is interested, let me know.
So that’s it. I’ve tried to describe the optimal battery management as clearly as I can. I realize that this can seem very complicated, and can make your eyes glaze over. It can get very involved, so apologize in advance if I just added to the confusion. But as I said, I’m happy to discuss any of this in greater detail with anyone who is interested.
If you do nothing else, simply combining your house bank and adding a Reserve Battery will go a long way in extending the useful life of your batteries AND providing you with more power to enjoy the toys on your boat. In fact, these changes will go a long way in negating the need for additional charging sources if you choose not to get into adding solar, wind or generator. Even if you have a generator, this setup will benefit you in that you will not have to run them nearly as long.
I will typically run my engine for an hour every other day when we are cruising. We typically cruise for 2-3 weeks at a time away from shore power and have not found the need for additional charging sources. I haven’t found a need for a larger, externally regulated alternator or Solar—yet. I do envision installing solar at some point in the future though…
Regards,
Jon Vez
Solstice #17
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bill pittore
On Saturday, March 30, 2013 at 7:10:34 AM UTC-4, Jon Vez wrote:
Mike,
I installed mine where the factory would—that is in the space between the Hot Water Tank and the fresh water pressure pump under the starboard side settee. I installed an AGM Group 27. No worries about mixing battery types in this installation as the charging regimens for Wet and AGM’s are close enough where it is not an issue, especially the way the battery is used.
Note that this would not be the case with Gel batteries as these have quite a different charging requirement and can be ruined quite easily if not careful.
The reason I used an AGM is so I wouldn’t have to worry about building a proper battery box and I didn’t want the hassle of checking the water in the cells in that location. I used a Battery Holder from West Marine to tie the battery down—I used the base of the Battery Holder as the template to create a plywood base, which I glassed in. If you are interested in the specifics of creating the base, let me know.
In its simplest form, the wiring is quite straightforward. Take the POS from the Reserve Battery and attach it to either the “1” or the “2” post on the back of the Battery Switch (this is personal preference). I use “1” for the Reserve, “2” for the House to remind me that the House Bank is made up of 2 batteries. Remove the original wire that went from the “1” post to the House Bank. Now you have one POS from the Reserve Bank to post “1” on the switch and you leave the original wire as is for the “2”. When you are done, you will have one POS wire to each battery bank. Finally run a NEG from the new Reserve Battery to the House Bank. Done.
Even if you choose not to use an ACR/combiner or echo charger to automatically charge the Reserve battery, you can top it up once a month or so by setting your switch to ‘Both’ for a few hours either via shore power or the Alternator.
If you look at the POS stud in the picture, notice the Blue Seas MRBF fuses and holders. The holders simply attach to the battery stud. Since these are 2/0 cables, I use 300A fuses. These MRBF’s are a really great way to fuse your batteries. Hope this helps and let me know if you need any more info.
Regards,
Jon
From: catal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:catal...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Downs
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 11:33 PM
To: catal...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Catalina 355:425] Batteries 101 for the 355...
Jon, what do you think is the best location in our boats for installing the 3rd "reserve battery" in the optimal set-up? any tips on installing other than what you have already explained?
Mike Downs
On Mar 28, 2013, at 5:27 AM, Jon Vez wrote:
Brent,
I used the LinkPro on my last two boats and they do work great. I have become a big fan of the Victron BM though. It is an easier install with only one Ethernet like cable as opposed to those 10 little wires the LP requires, with the same functionality.
I’m curious as to where you installed the Shunt for your LinkPro? One of the things I don’t like about the boat is the limited space available around the Battery compartment. Also would be interested in your Solar Panel location. There is a company in Maine who will sew a panel into the Bimini—very neat installation, but not cheap…yet…..
The reason I prefer the Echo Charger over the ACR is because when the ACR combines the Banks, it provides the same voltage to both the large House Bank and the smaller Starting (Reserve) Battery. This tends to slightly under charge the large bank and slightly overcharge the smaller. To be clear, this doesn’t cause any real issues as I used one on my last boat for 12 years with absolutely no problems. However, the EC is a bit unique in that it will provide the proper voltage to the House Bank and basically trickle charge the smaller bank. It has the same combine/isolate capability as the ACR, however will only combine when the small battery needs it, and is easier to install. Either way, any of these devices are the only way to charge via one charging source and a great addition….
From: catal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:catal...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Brent Landry
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 9:54 PM
To: catal...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Catalina 355:421] Batteries 101 for the 355...
This is excellent. I like this type of work too.
For monitoring I installed a Xantrex LinkPro battery monitor. There are a few benefits that I like:
· it can monitor both banks
· it has a visual indicator for high/low voltage and a bunch of other programmable events
· it has a built-in relay and an option for additional relays. With the relays you can get creative to automatically mitigate power problems. Some people have the relays switch off equipment if the voltage gets too low. Some people use the relays to automatically start a generator. Some people use it for audible alarms. I only use it for an LED warning light.
· it monitors the overall health of the batteries
· you can clearly see the charge or discharge rate, and easily determine the load each piece of equipment uses
Using the Echo Charger or the Blue Seas ACR is a great idea. I added solar power, which I will get in to more in a moment, and I found numerous solar charge controllers that can prioritize a bank and then switch to a second bank. Perhaps this is redundant if you have an ACR installed. I don’t know the details of how an ACR is implemented. In my mind I think ideally you would want all your charging to be implemented the same way, and leverage the ACR.
I love having solar power. We used to run the engine every night to ensure a full bank for the night. Now we can go days without needing the engine to charge. The battery monitor provides the extra piece of mind that all is well. The silent bliss of free power from the sun is very much enjoyed by my wife. The cost of solar power is dropping every year so it is quite affordable now. Some people even use flexible panels that are snapped on to the bimini, with no frame needed.
From: catal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:catal...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jon Vez
Sent: March-27-13 6:23 PM
To: catal...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Catalina 355:416] Batteries 101 for the 355...
Here is my take on the optimal setup for the electrical setup for the 355. These observations are based on commonly accepted practices in the marine industry. Marine electrical systems are somewhat of a passion of mine and I have employed what I believe to be best practices on my last two boats and am in the process of finishing up optimizing the 355’s electrical system. I will not describe how to implement these suggestions in this post, however if anyone has an interest in that aspect, or want specifics to provide to a certified marine electrician, I will be happy to provide those details. Hopefully this is not to confusing!
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Jon Vez
On Jan 22, 2020, at 10:38 AM, bill pittore <bill.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
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bill pittore
On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 10:57:21 AM UTC-5, Jon Vez wrote:
Hi Bill,Welcome! Hopefully I can help answer your questions...—I made the Reserve Battery platform out of marine plywood. The hardest part was scribing the two base pieces to the angle of the hull. I then epoxied the two base pieces to the hull and used some fiberglass mat and FB tape to tie the base to the hull. I painted the platform with bilge paint, but any outdoor paint would do. Once the base was epoxied and FG in, I simply screwed the top piece onto the base. I used an AGM battery here because a battery box wouldn’t be convenient and the tie down (Defender) works perfectly. My House Bank consists of 4 6V wet cells (Rolls).—I cut that access compartment out myself. When I bought the boat, I thought long and hard about where to put a proper electrical setup with room to add. When exploring the nooks and crannies of the boat, I noticed all of that unused space which is in a perfect spot for all of the electrical components being put in an organized way.I don’t recall If I posted the pictures of the cutout project. If not I’d be happy to share along with details. It wasn’t that difficult and I’m by no means any good at glass work!Let me know if you need more info or clarification...Regards,
JonSent from my iPad
Jon Vez
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PM
Thanks
Cheers Paul
bill pittore
I’m sort of mid venture into doing this BUT my boat is in NJ while I am locked down near Boston. FWIW, this is my first boat that I’ve owned. I have a room full of gear to install to hopefully convert the house bank to Lithium plus add an AGM starter battery. I have bought 2 Victron 200Ah batteries, a Victron inverter/charger and two solar MPPT solar controllers along with other ancillary equipment. It got to the point where I built a full size mock-up of the area of the boat by the battery well and nav desk so I could layout and cut and build most of the electrical cables. We are probably going down to NJ this weekend to finally get going on the re-fit. Then, hopefully, it’s on to Portland, ME. I will keep you posted. If you want more detailed info, let me know.
Bill
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PM
How did you make out with the switch over to Lithium batteries?
Cheers Paul
Neil McLaughlin
Hull #154 came with a Victron Inverter. I have now installed a Victron BMV battery monitor. I am looking at the Cerbo GX once it comes available in Canada. Does anybody else have experience with that yet?
Neil
bill pittore
paulbwmasson
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PM
Thanks again
PAUL
PM
so just to be clear you installed both a AGM relay and and Echo Charger? I have followed you with a AGM Start/ Reserve and 4 6V wet acid
Thanks Paul
Jon Vez
Just the Echo Charger. There’s no concern with overcharging the AGM because it’s only getting trickle charged and it’s a one way device. My crappy West Marine 27AH AGM is 8 years old and is still in great shape since it never gets drawn down with other boat loads.
I test by starting the engine with it 2-3 times a season. When the engine doesn’t turn over immediately like it does now I will replace....
Sent from my iPad
> On Jun 28, 2020, at 5:02 AM, PM <paulbw...@bell.net> wrote:
>
> HI Jon,
> so just to be clear you installed both a AGM relay and and Echo Charger? I have followed you with a AGM Start/ Reserve and 4 6V wet acid
>
> Thanks Paul
>
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PM
Thanks
Paul
Jon Vez
If you’re referring to the my post very early on I probably did mention an ACR as an effective way to combine banks for charging when all batteries are the same chemistry.
However in my opinion when the primary bank is a wet battery and secondary banks are AGM, an Echo Charger Is a better choice because it’s not combining disparate batteries and feeding a charging profile that’s presumably set for the main bank.
Sent from my iPad
> On Jun 29, 2020, at 9:25 PM, PM <paulbw...@bell.net> wrote:
>
> Sorry I meant to say ACR Relay I thought you mentioned both items earlier in you details?
>
> Thanks
> Paul
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PM
Cheers Paul
Phil Kling
Jon Vez
On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:47 PM, Phil Kling <phil.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
Jon:
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Phil Kling
Thank you for your quick response Jon:
I have been studying your post and the articles on mainsail.com and I am keen to get started on my 355 electrical system.
I have four Trojan 6V T125 (240 Ah) as my house bank with no reserve/starter bank (photo attached). They are configured as two independent series banks and each wired to the #1 and #2 terminals of the 1/2/B switch respectively. I keep the switch in the Both position. I plan to rearrange these batteries into the series/parallel config this spring and then connect the combined bank to the #2 terminal. Leaving #1 free for a reservestarter bank.
Charging is achieved via the factory Charles 5000 SP 30 Amp unit and the factory 60 Amp alternator. The prior owner installed two 110 watt flex panels 2 years back. Controlled with MPPT unit. The feed is wired directly to my #2 house bank. (see Photo).
This is my overall plan plan (so far):
- Rearrange house bank in series/parallel configuration (480 Ah) and connect to Terminal #2 on Battery switch
- Connect Solar feed to the House bank positive terminal (preferably to a fused power bus near the battery bank)
- Connect Alternator to House bank fused power bus. Considering a future upgrade to 100-120 Amp Balmar
- Connect the Charles 5000 to House bank fused power bus. Considering a future upgrade to ProCharge Ultra 50-60 Amp
- Add a reserve battery on Starboard side and connect to Terminal #1 on Battery switch
- Add an ACR or Echo at the reserve battery to manage its state of charge.
- Add a battery monitor to monitor both banks
- Continue to use existing engine switch to supply power to the starter motor.
Still undecided on how to fuse it all so any guidance here will be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Phil K
Hull #5
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