Conference Series for Purva-paksha on Western Indology
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K S Kannan
Mar 12, 2016, 1:13:07 AM3/12/16
to bvparishat
Conference series for
P
urva-paksha on
Western IndologyDear traditional Indian scholar,
Recent times have witnessed many academic/non-academic controversies related to Western Indology. It is easily discerned that in terms of quality as well as quantity, the participation of Indian scholarship (whose heritage it is that is at stake primarily) has been very poor, especially academically; this is as against that of the West, equipped as it is with an aggressive scholarship backed by funding, institutional support, libraries, conferences, journals, etc.
Two of the significant reasons for the current state of Indian scholarship are: (a) the barriers of language (not just ordinary English, but specialized jargon), and (b) the barriers of multi-disciplinary approach, wherein Indians are at a disadvantage. Various circumstances may have contributed to this, but there is no escape from the necessity of an academic handling of the issue.
As a remedial measure, therefore, it is important to consider the issues raised by the West one by one, and study their merits and demerits in a series of conferences dealing with the major contributors to the field. To begin with, four key issues raised by Sheldon Pollock are taken up. After a lucid and fair statement of the questions raised by him and their logic as purva-paksha, the uttara-paksha will be attempted. It is hoped that in this series of conferences - where ad hominem attacks will be banned – we develop a responsible and responsive scholarship to handle the intellectual challenges of our times.
Scholars are invited herewith to go through the attachment and kindly respond by Sunday, April 3, 2016 with an expression of their preliminary interest.
Write to KS Kannan: ks.kann...@gmail.com
With cc to Shalini Puthiyedam: puthiyeda...@gmail.com
K.S.Kannan
Nagaraj Paturi
Mar 12, 2016, 4:02:40 AM3/12/16
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
On one of the key issues, Prof. Pollock's thesis of Death of Sanskrit, there were several threads on BVP. Some of them are below. Since the main argument of Prof. Pollock is that after 1800 creativity in Sanskrit literature stopped, that period was focussed on:
Classical music lyrics: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/bvparishat/death$20of$20sanskrit%7Csort:relevance/bvparishat/40uRpn_uHqc/xwKNjG1JxkUJ
National movement literature:
Harikatha:
1800-1950 in general
Vyakarana Works:
Theatre and dance-drama:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/bvparishat/1800-1950%7Csort:relevance/bvparishat/ZCz_hktyjK0/LFpi--
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Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,
(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
K S Kannan
Mar 12, 2016, 4:13:33 AM3/12/16
to bvparishat
Dear Paturi Sir,
I admire your resourcefulness and authenticity !
We need your suggestions, guidance, and involvement on several issues and at several stages.
Will approach you.
Deep Regards
Kannan
Dr. K.S.Kannan
Professor,
Centre for Ancient History and Culture,
Jain University
319, 17th Cross, 25th Main,
6th Phase, J P Nagar, Bangalore - 560 078
(Ex-Director, Karnataka Samskrit University)
Nagaraj Paturi
Mar 12, 2016, 5:12:56 AM3/12/16
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Hannender's rejoinder to "Death of Sanskrit" could be included in the reading list.
On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:31 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:
K S Kannan
Mar 12, 2016, 5:16:43 AM3/12/16
to bvparishat
The same has already been included at the end in the Reading List (in the Attachment to the Conf Announcement)
Mandyam D Srinivas
Mar 12, 2016, 7:35:47 AM3/12/16
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
There is a later article on the issue by Prof. J. Hannender, which is in German. That may also be translated and circulated
Hanneder, J. (2009), "Modernes Sanskrit: eine vergessene Literatur", in Straube, Martin; Steiner, Roland; Soni, Jayandra; Hahn, Michael; Demoto, Mitsuyo, Pāsādikadānaṃ : Festschrift für Bhikkhu Pāsādika, Indica et Tibetica Verlag, pp. 205–228
M D SrinivasHanneder, J. (2009), "Modernes Sanskrit: eine vergessene Literatur", in Straube, Martin; Steiner, Roland; Soni, Jayandra; Hahn, Michael; Demoto, Mitsuyo, Pāsādikadānaṃ : Festschrift für Bhikkhu Pāsādika, Indica et Tibetica Verlag, pp. 205–228
Nagaraj Paturi
Mar 12, 2016, 9:49:22 AM3/12/16
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Thanks Prof. Kannan, for your kind words.
I am at your service for any bit from my side.
Warm regards,
Nagaraj
Nagaraj Paturi
Mar 13, 2016, 7:48:04 AM3/13/16
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
I found this 2001 post by Prof. Madhav Deshpande on Indology list here. Could be supplied as part of reading list:
Madhav M. Deshpande mmdesh at UMICH.EDU
Fri Aug 10 08:24:43 EDT 2001
Fri Aug 10 08:24:43 EDT 2001
My views on "the death of Sanskrit" are not determined by
whether I write to Indology on Yahoo or at Liverpool. I think we are
confusing the term "language death" used by linguists with what happened to
Sanskrit in the 17th century. If "loss of use as the first language" is
the criterion for language death, I would have no problem using this term
with reference to Sanskrit. However, in that case, Sanskrit "as a first
language" died its death perhaps even before Panini, and certainly by
Patanjali's time. I have myself argued for such a state of affairs and I
have no problem with that. After that what we have is the rebirth and
survival of Sanskrit as a learned elite language of high culture. As I
understand Sheldon's arguments, they don't deal with the first death of
Sanskrit as a first language, but with the second death, if I can call
that. What is the death of a learned second language? Sheldon is dealing
with the increasingly restrictive environment in which this learned second
language found itself. There I do like his analysis, and agree with his
depiction. However, in this role of being a learned, and now perhaps a
tertiary (rather than a second) language, Sanskrit continues to be used in
India in completely altered circumstances. There is a tendency among
scholars to discount this late phase, in part because there are no good
English language sources on the Sanskrit literature produced in the last
hundred years or so, and because the Sanskrit reading materials in our
class-rooms exclusively deal with the classical phase. However, there is
an immense Sanskrit production during the last two hundred years which is
basically unknown to modern western scholarship. The five hundred pages of
S.B. Varnekar's History of Modern Sanskrit Literature (in Marathi), Ashok
Aklujkar's work on Appa Shastri Rashivadekar's contributions to emerging
Sanskrit monthly magazines (written in Sanskrit), annual Sanskrit debate
competitions at various Indian institutions in which Ashok and Vidyut
Aklujkar, I and so many others took part, annual Sanskrit drama
competitions held in places like Pune, Bombay, and Ujjain, all of this kind
of Sanskrit production cannot be simply discounted by marking the final
death of Sanskrit with Jagannaatha. Post-Jagannaatha circumstances under
which Sanskrit continued to be used are indeed different. They are
ever-more restrictive with the loss of status to Sanskrit as the language
of higher learning, and yet the works produced in Sanskrit, just since
independence in 1947, number to many hundred. I would hope that the
investigation into the life and death of Sanskrit would seriously take into
account its current state of affairs. Last time I was in Pune in 1999, I
attended the publication ceremony for Professor G.B. Palsule's epic length
Sanskrit work on Savarkar's life. The entire function took place in
Sanskrit. We need to account for this continued use of Sanskrit. There
are some interesting linguistic studies of this modern Sanskrit. In the
west, only Hans Hock had done some interesting work with modern spoken
Sanskrit. One can find some fine linguistic analysis by Aralakatti in his
book on modern spoken Sanskrit. If Sanskrit died a second death at the
time of Jagannaatha, it still has an on-going life after its second death,
distinctly different from its previous lives, and yet a life that needs a
serious academic investigation. Around 1920s, a Marathi author N.C. Kelkar
published a series of essays titled "Revival of Sanskrit Studies" (in
Marathi: Sa.msk.rta vidyece punar-ujjiivana) describing how Sanskrit
studies were enjoying a sort of revival under the newly emerging British
system of education in India during the last decades of the 19th century.
One of these days, I would like to translate these essays into English.
Varnekar's History of Modern Sanskrit Literature needs to be translated
into English as well. Perhaps, Ashok can take up this project.
The history of lives of Sanskrit may be like the Nine Lives of
Cats. Reports of its final death may be premature. Best,
Madhav Deshpande
whether I write to Indology on Yahoo or at Liverpool. I think we are
confusing the term "language death" used by linguists with what happened to
Sanskrit in the 17th century. If "loss of use as the first language" is
the criterion for language death, I would have no problem using this term
with reference to Sanskrit. However, in that case, Sanskrit "as a first
language" died its death perhaps even before Panini, and certainly by
Patanjali's time. I have myself argued for such a state of affairs and I
have no problem with that. After that what we have is the rebirth and
survival of Sanskrit as a learned elite language of high culture. As I
understand Sheldon's arguments, they don't deal with the first death of
Sanskrit as a first language, but with the second death, if I can call
that. What is the death of a learned second language? Sheldon is dealing
with the increasingly restrictive environment in which this learned second
language found itself. There I do like his analysis, and agree with his
depiction. However, in this role of being a learned, and now perhaps a
tertiary (rather than a second) language, Sanskrit continues to be used in
India in completely altered circumstances. There is a tendency among
scholars to discount this late phase, in part because there are no good
English language sources on the Sanskrit literature produced in the last
hundred years or so, and because the Sanskrit reading materials in our
class-rooms exclusively deal with the classical phase. However, there is
an immense Sanskrit production during the last two hundred years which is
basically unknown to modern western scholarship. The five hundred pages of
S.B. Varnekar's History of Modern Sanskrit Literature (in Marathi), Ashok
Aklujkar's work on Appa Shastri Rashivadekar's contributions to emerging
Sanskrit monthly magazines (written in Sanskrit), annual Sanskrit debate
competitions at various Indian institutions in which Ashok and Vidyut
Aklujkar, I and so many others took part, annual Sanskrit drama
competitions held in places like Pune, Bombay, and Ujjain, all of this kind
of Sanskrit production cannot be simply discounted by marking the final
death of Sanskrit with Jagannaatha. Post-Jagannaatha circumstances under
which Sanskrit continued to be used are indeed different. They are
ever-more restrictive with the loss of status to Sanskrit as the language
of higher learning, and yet the works produced in Sanskrit, just since
independence in 1947, number to many hundred. I would hope that the
investigation into the life and death of Sanskrit would seriously take into
account its current state of affairs. Last time I was in Pune in 1999, I
attended the publication ceremony for Professor G.B. Palsule's epic length
Sanskrit work on Savarkar's life. The entire function took place in
Sanskrit. We need to account for this continued use of Sanskrit. There
are some interesting linguistic studies of this modern Sanskrit. In the
west, only Hans Hock had done some interesting work with modern spoken
Sanskrit. One can find some fine linguistic analysis by Aralakatti in his
book on modern spoken Sanskrit. If Sanskrit died a second death at the
time of Jagannaatha, it still has an on-going life after its second death,
distinctly different from its previous lives, and yet a life that needs a
serious academic investigation. Around 1920s, a Marathi author N.C. Kelkar
published a series of essays titled "Revival of Sanskrit Studies" (in
Marathi: Sa.msk.rta vidyece punar-ujjiivana) describing how Sanskrit
studies were enjoying a sort of revival under the newly emerging British
system of education in India during the last decades of the 19th century.
One of these days, I would like to translate these essays into English.
Varnekar's History of Modern Sanskrit Literature needs to be translated
into English as well. Perhaps, Ashok can take up this project.
The history of lives of Sanskrit may be like the Nine Lives of
Cats. Reports of its final death may be premature. Best,
Madhav Deshpande
K S Kannan
Mar 13, 2016, 8:42:31 AM3/13/16
to bvparishat
Thanks, Prof Paturi, for supplying scholarly material having bearing on the topics we propose to discuss.
Regards
Kannan
Shrinivasa Varakhedi
Mar 14, 2016, 1:28:51 AM3/14/16
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Respected Prof Kannan Ji
It's nice to learn about the series of workshop on the western Indology. The stages of action plan for the proposed series are well conceived. I will also participate in the series in order to learn from the scholars.
The selected topics are very crucial in terms of understanding and response. For me as a novice, some of his early papers written in the beginning of his carrier are a good starting point. Can you suggest some papers ? With that we can understand his turning points too.
I went through the project proposal attached to the mail. I agree with you on the major idea. Yet, I beg to differ with you on the flowing passage -
Q
While extensive and intensive studies of the heritage of every country are a natural concern of the respective countrymen, it is a paradox that Indian heritage is being studied too little by Indian scholars themselves, and rather extensively by Western academicians. This is a dangerous imbalance that must be rectified.
UQ
As a matter of fact that you too are well aware of, the traditional scholarship continues with its regiur in all aspects. Some decline in the quantity is not a measure for our standards. First we should know what is our strength. The traditional scholarly fraternity is happy with whatever it is offering now. If we want anything from them, it is our duty to get them in our sphere and work with them.. We should establish the connection. The scientists never come to limelight of the public Dias. How many scientists are known to the world? I don't care if some one from America or somebody says the Indian scholarship is not worthy or not upto the marks. Who has set these standards ? Shall I evaluate them using my own standards ? None of these "Plolloks" or his so called opponents (don't take offending) come near to any of my team that includes great scholars like Prof Tatacharya, prof Prahlada char, Prof. Mani Shastrigal, prof Haridas Bhat, prof. Ramakrishnamacharyulu, prof Vasudeva Potti, Prof shrivatsankacharya, prof. H N Bhat, prof. Naveena Holla, prof k e devanathan prof Shatavadhani Ganesh, prof Devadatta Patil, prof Radhavallabh Tripathi, prof. Kutumba Shastry and the list goes on. We will witness a galaxy of scholars with depth if we attend any of these traditional vakyarthas. Even today such vakyarthas are conducted. I too take part in it and learn many new ideas each time. That's how I maintain my understanding of traditional knowledge. I can list out a minimum of hundred young scholars who are continuing the tradition with a passion. They don't get any support, no recognition, no means for their life. Unless you nourish that root, all these our acts are just a drama. Despite of no support, the young generation wants to retain the scholarship. If some one like Rohan Murthi says it's fine. He is ignorant and his purpose of saying was different. He wanted scholars exposed to the modern English education. He is interested in English scholarship. But, we should not do the same mistake. Kindly do not mistake me that I differ from you. Of course you are one of the rare stalwarts of erudition of our nation. I admire you. But, in all recent public discussions the similar statements are written. We should be clear while writing.
Yes, I agree that the scholars who can understand both the edges are very rare. Scholars who have got background of tradition and the modern exposure are a few in number. People like Dr. Korada, Dr. Ramanujan, Dr. Ramasubramanian, Dr. Pandurangi, Dr. Malhar Kulakrni, Dr. Vishnu Namboodiri, Dr. Mishra, Prof Shukla and so on. If we ignore such people how can we succeed in this battle ?
I therefore request the organisers to take note of my "spirit" than the words. We need the bridge persons as well as traditional scholars for this project as it was recognised in the concept note. As part of the second phase of the action plan, the scholars who can act as bridge will be very crucial for the success of the project. We need to groom them or that kind of scholarship for the future. We should also recognise the traditional scholarship with due respect.
Again I am sure you would take my words as the words of a dearest younger friend.
Anyway this project is a welcome for all of us. We will make it possible.
With best regards
Shrinivasa Varakhedi
It's nice to learn about the series of workshop on the western Indology. The stages of action plan for the proposed series are well conceived. I will also participate in the series in order to learn from the scholars.
The selected topics are very crucial in terms of understanding and response. For me as a novice, some of his early papers written in the beginning of his carrier are a good starting point. Can you suggest some papers ? With that we can understand his turning points too.
I went through the project proposal attached to the mail. I agree with you on the major idea. Yet, I beg to differ with you on the flowing passage -
Q
While extensive and intensive studies of the heritage of every country are a natural concern of the respective countrymen, it is a paradox that Indian heritage is being studied too little by Indian scholars themselves, and rather extensively by Western academicians. This is a dangerous imbalance that must be rectified.
UQ
As a matter of fact that you too are well aware of, the traditional scholarship continues with its regiur in all aspects. Some decline in the quantity is not a measure for our standards. First we should know what is our strength. The traditional scholarly fraternity is happy with whatever it is offering now. If we want anything from them, it is our duty to get them in our sphere and work with them.. We should establish the connection. The scientists never come to limelight of the public Dias. How many scientists are known to the world? I don't care if some one from America or somebody says the Indian scholarship is not worthy or not upto the marks. Who has set these standards ? Shall I evaluate them using my own standards ? None of these "Plolloks" or his so called opponents (don't take offending) come near to any of my team that includes great scholars like Prof Tatacharya, prof Prahlada char, Prof. Mani Shastrigal, prof Haridas Bhat, prof. Ramakrishnamacharyulu, prof Vasudeva Potti, Prof shrivatsankacharya, prof. H N Bhat, prof. Naveena Holla, prof k e devanathan prof Shatavadhani Ganesh, prof Devadatta Patil, prof Radhavallabh Tripathi, prof. Kutumba Shastry and the list goes on. We will witness a galaxy of scholars with depth if we attend any of these traditional vakyarthas. Even today such vakyarthas are conducted. I too take part in it and learn many new ideas each time. That's how I maintain my understanding of traditional knowledge. I can list out a minimum of hundred young scholars who are continuing the tradition with a passion. They don't get any support, no recognition, no means for their life. Unless you nourish that root, all these our acts are just a drama. Despite of no support, the young generation wants to retain the scholarship. If some one like Rohan Murthi says it's fine. He is ignorant and his purpose of saying was different. He wanted scholars exposed to the modern English education. He is interested in English scholarship. But, we should not do the same mistake. Kindly do not mistake me that I differ from you. Of course you are one of the rare stalwarts of erudition of our nation. I admire you. But, in all recent public discussions the similar statements are written. We should be clear while writing.
Yes, I agree that the scholars who can understand both the edges are very rare. Scholars who have got background of tradition and the modern exposure are a few in number. People like Dr. Korada, Dr. Ramanujan, Dr. Ramasubramanian, Dr. Pandurangi, Dr. Malhar Kulakrni, Dr. Vishnu Namboodiri, Dr. Mishra, Prof Shukla and so on. If we ignore such people how can we succeed in this battle ?
I therefore request the organisers to take note of my "spirit" than the words. We need the bridge persons as well as traditional scholars for this project as it was recognised in the concept note. As part of the second phase of the action plan, the scholars who can act as bridge will be very crucial for the success of the project. We need to groom them or that kind of scholarship for the future. We should also recognise the traditional scholarship with due respect.
Again I am sure you would take my words as the words of a dearest younger friend.
Anyway this project is a welcome for all of us. We will make it possible.
With best regards
Shrinivasa Varakhedi
Sati Shankar
Mar 14, 2016, 2:32:56 AM3/14/16
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
AdarNiya vidvadjan,
Just to assist, i am attaching a book by
Pollock Sheldon : language_of_the_gods_in_the_world_of_men, Sanskrit, Culture, and Power in Pre Modern India
contaning articles on various aspects . Hope it will enrich the endeavour w are aiming to.
Regards
Sati Shankar
K S Kannan
Mar 14, 2016, 4:38:42 AM3/14/16
to bvparishat
Dear Prof Varakhedi,
I appreciate the spirit of your response.
You have made a good note of the great scholars of our tradition who are all big assets of our heritage. It is with the help, cooperation and guidance of all the people listed by you, and many more, that the project we want to proceed with can turn out good results. Persons like you who can help in roping in more and more of such scholars for this project.
It is only when we cast a balance sheet of our strengths and weaknesses that we know what steps we need to undertake. Continuous evaluation and continuous upgradation are the watchwords of any good management system.
Now is a crucial hour, I guess, to make a good review. It is only in recent times that there is a surge in the desire to understand the merits of our heritage, probably against the background of the economic progress our country is making. It is again in recent times that Western academia, typified by Wendy and Pollock, leading figures no doubt, has vociferously hurled the worst of abuses against our heritage, imputing some of the most heinous motives. The amount of damage the epithets they "adore" our heritage with wreak upon our own younger generation (here and abroad) is not easily undone. Already in our own country, academicians by and large, especially of regional languages, and in most departments of humanities and social sciences are extremely spiteful of our heritage, and would not miss the slightest chance to caricature it, to deride it and abuse it. The news of the loss of a large number of manuscripts from Orissa, recently shared on BVParishad, is only a pointer to the malady, and to the abysmal apathy that abounds all around. Add to this, Pollock and professors of his ilk are brazen enough to make a display of the political axes they have to grind.
A system of medicine that does not answer newer illnesses cannot be held in high regard; it cannot be described as a system that is alive and kicking. Until our traditional scholarship can take up the gauntlets thrown by the West, or its agents who have so proliferated, its great strength will not become manifest.
I think you have somewhat missed my emphasis. I don't deny that there are hundreds of strong traditional scholars and several more budding scholars seeking to have strong moorings in the tradition. But then, who has to fight the damage that is being dealt - to the psyche of our kids and our society in general ? It is this scholarship that has to fight those forces, and in a manner that only it can fight viz. academically.
Should the traditional scholarly fraternity be happy with what it is offering now? Far from going on the offensive, we are not even prepared for the defensive. Too few have been alive to the fact that there is even a battle on! It is only now that a growing awareness of this assault is beginning to dawn upon us.
You speak of scientists who quietly go about their work. But if the work they do is not broadcast by popularisers of science, who have been in such large numbers and have played such large roles, even the tribe of scientists would have languished, gaining little support from the governments and the public. How little does our public know of the academic excellences, or the contents of scholarly output, of giants like NSRamanuja Tatacharya, Prahladacharya, Srivatsankacharya, or even Vineet Chaitanya - to name but a few ! But even more, how many are blessed to know, even among Sanskritists, of how their great academic output answers the posers of the vilifiers of our heritage?
The need of the hour is of the bridge-builders - who know the purva-paksha too. If one knows only the siddhanta-s (albeit strong ones) against the purva-paksha-s of bygone ages, without providing apt replies for the current and relevant purva-paksha-s, I think we are missing something vital.
If my doctor can administer medicine only to cAturthika-jvara, but not to modern day stress syndromes, would it really help me? All that I am saying is that we have to rise to the challenges of the ideas of our times. It is our traditional scholarship that can have answers to it.
There is no question of ignoring any deep scholars. It is not claimed by anybody that our deep scholars are being well-provided for; scholars like F W Thomas and Fleet already grieved over a century ago that Sanskrit scholarship was dying! It is towards remedying such situations of non-nourishment of true scholarship that this series of conferences is directed. Apart from the general call for papers, many individual scholars would be invited to contribute their ideas.
I hope this clarifies some of the misapprehensions raised.
K S Kannan
Sati Shankar
Mar 16, 2016, 10:25:11 AM3/16/16
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
AdarNiya vidvadjana,
Since the proposed conference aims to be a series with wider perspective s its title Conference Series for Purva-paksha on Western Indology itself reveals ,channelization of efforts is necessary to keep the path well charted and objective well defined.
In the light of this, at the outset we can not say which western Indologist would fit where, as some have been well in news and controversy while other not. We all know that they have their own circuits to spin with well developed technical arsenal, however, having equipped with most modern weapon does not ensure for 100% target hit.
It is well known that, beginning from Roth, St. Peterburg approach to Geldner.... their trust on their own arsenal has been shaking from colonial arrogance to ... realisation of the fact that semantics can not work in abstraction and "native" element is a must. So long so is for literary side on Western indology. This is certainly not a big problem as trial and error is resorted with scientific methods in natural sciences also and the rationalist-formalist-empiricist controversy goes on.and may be accepted as a healthy sign as methodologies themselves defeat the researcher at times when applied wrongly.
There come malpractices due to strings attached to funding and endowments for Chairs where political and religious bias creeps, partly due to own cultural and religious background of the indologist and partly due to the directives thay receive in occupation,
Therefore, while proceeding for the series of conferences, author based, it is pertinent ti keep in mind the broad objectives.. the target we have to hit and the challenges we have to meet.
Dr. Rajiv Malhotra has pointed out such challenges in his Indra'a Net:
(1) India's optimum state is balkanization
(2) Colonial Indology's biases were turned into Hinduism
(3) Hinduism was manufactured and did not go organically
(4) Yogic experience is not a valid path to enlighten and tries to copy western science
(5) Wrestern Sicial ethics was incorporated as seva and karma
(6) Hinduism had no prior self definition, unity or coherence
(7) Hinduism is founded on operession and sustained by it,
(8) Hinduism presumes sameness of all religions...
Even a rough visit to Pollock's theses, as enumerated in the circular of this proposed conference will confirm inclusion of the above aims in his studies.
Apologise for unsolicited suggestion.
Regards
Sati Shankar
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K S Kannan
Mar 16, 2016, 1:55:49 PM3/16/16
to bvparishat
Dear Sati Shankar,
Your opinions and suggestions are indeed solicited!
You have sympathetic concerns and kindred approaches. While it is true that not all Westerners are instinctively inimical to our heritage, there are many Indian scholar-sepoys, on the other hand, who take pride in playing into the hands of even such Westerners as unabashedly display an overbearing animosity to whatever issues from the East. Mercenary-scholars and "converts" to Western paradigms suffer from an inalienable inferiority complex or delusion (or both) and beam with a confidence "that can only make angels weep". The self-imposed "White man's burden" is kindred to that of the beast of burden "that carries sandalwood, seldom comprehending the fragrance and value of what it carries" : "bhArasya vettA, na tu candanasya". Aptly did Coomaraswamy reprimand ABKeith, insolence incarnate, for example, with the Vedic taunt "yas tan na veda kim RcA karis"yati ?" for foraying into realms that were beyond his ken, and which he further held in nothing but transparent contempt. Well did a good many Western academicians "succeed" so well, fitting to a T the famed formula of Mark Twain, of blending "a fair degree of ignorance and immense confidence"!
It is only a handful of overly notorious Westerners that this series of conferences deigns to consider, if only to lay bare their rank prejudices and wilfully subversive programs, to an unsuspecting populace in awe of the West. Thereafter it seeks to deliberate upon what is valuable in our own time-honoured tradition, and upon a study of ways of broadcasting and perpetuating the same, lest a newer Orientalism spread its tentacles over the heritage that was hospitable to all and sought to harm none, and endeavoured to uplift humanity sans selfishness and sans all propaganda.
KSKannan
.
Sati Shankar
Mar 16, 2016, 2:17:10 PM3/16/16
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Dear Sir,
Highly appreciated.Thanks for your words.
Regards
Sati Shankar
Nagaraj Paturi
Mar 17, 2016, 3:01:20 AM3/17/16
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Apart from this intense Purva-paksha activity or even before that activity, what is required at a greater intensity is
1. training Indian readers, particularly the younger ones, more particularly those staying and studying in India in critical reading and critical thinking: all the 'good boy' / 'good girl' qualities nurtured here, though have their own merits in terms of, say, a help to good family system at the loss of which intensely modernized societies are lamenting, have their flipside in the form of accepting what is taught or published, uncritically, without questioning the logic, without asking for evidences or sources. (In this aspect, the Indian origin students studying in western countries are much better equipped thanks to the teaching method there; much of the present rebellion against the western Indology began from the parents of the children who rebelled against what was taught to them about India in their classrooms.)
2. educating Indian learners, educators, researchers and debaters about the theoretical and methodological tools available in the 'western' (better called 'contemporary mainstream') academics itself that help them in understanding the Indian material through an approach closer to the insider's perspective. Examples of such tools are : Kant, Kantian ideas of multiple truths, Jungian psychoanalysis, (more precisely analytical psychology), Environmentalist ideas particularly those that challenge absolute objectivity of S&T (e.g. Henryk Skolimowsky) ,
3. educating Indian learners, educators, researchers and debaters about the critique of western ideas and modernity from the perspective of Indian tradition done by colonial time Indian intellectuals such as Swami Vivekananda, Sri Aurobindo, Swami Dayanda Saraswati, etc. Many regional literature writers such as Viswanatha Satyanarayana in Telugu who did this in their own languages can be introduced through translations. These should be introduced along with their limitations and scope for improvement in their ideas.
Humbly yours,
Nagaraj
K S Kannan
Mar 17, 2016, 5:27:14 AM3/17/16
to bvparishat
Useful inputs.
As a general phenomenon, Indian boys and girls working in the fields of science and technology are rather more sensible. It is those who enter into the streams of humanities and social sciences, and especially those landing in Western universities, that are open to perversion, and eventually become hard-core despisers of anything Oriental in spirit.
The phenomenon in India seems to go on these lines: As a rule, Western theories are imported wholesale in our text books in the humanities and social sciences, including especially literary criticism/linguistics, without any consideration for the local situation here or the long history and traditions here which may widely differ from the West in terms of values and tastes. It is the students of these that turn easy saboteurs.
And as a good majority of those who are going to arts/ humanities/social sciences seem to be those who could not fare well in science and mathematics, and so do not earn "well", there is an apparent polarisation here, too. And further, as the "lower classes" find it easy to get a degree in the Arts courses, they get groomed ultimately to hate our inheritance almost naturally, and become easy instruments of wily politicians.
The picture presented here is, of course, too facile, and the situation needs to be studied with greater care. But this seems to represent a general trend. "Who speaks for the East?" - is by no means a new question. China and Japan have somehow withstood the intellectual onslaught of the West, as they never yielded ground to the Western ideologies on a very large scale. In contrast, with the large mass of colonised minds (even among the elite) in our country, even rousing a nominal or minimal interest in our heritage - leave alone stirring a sense of pride or evoking a spirit of deep inquiry- is going to be a formidable task. Apathy reigns supreme, and distractions galore.
The points you have raised are very significant, and we must begin somewhere to remedy the situation. A key aim of ours should be to build an ecology for our own value-systems and objects of study - comparable to what atmosphere the West itself provides to its citizens (and especially university students/the elite), in order to nurture and enlarge the sphere of influence of its own ideas and ideologies. The kind of scholarships/stipends/library facilities/job opportunities/emoluments/journal access/publication culture/financial and other incentives etc. that obtain there - must soon become a reality here too!
KSKannan
Sati Shankar
Mar 17, 2016, 8:59:19 AM3/17/16
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Yes,
What has been done and taught so far, be it due to colonial or
intellectual subordination, has much to be responsible for the
outcomes which we have seen so far.
It is never late and in the life of a country half a century is not a
long time, provided we decide and take necessary steps to correct the
situation.
So far as training in critical thinking and modern outlook, I have
found students feeling harassed or bombarded when we enlist subjects
which they ought to be families to attain ability of modern critical
thinking.
Just to keep them consoled with a feeling of light and simultaneously
introducing them with the core content, i name the subject, "Logic,
Methodology and Philosophy of Science" and found it acceptable to
students in wide spectrum... beginning from literature and social
sciences to Management, Sciences and Technology.
I have seen the impact myself in students, even if they have gone
through a popularizer level text in this field.
The beauty of the subject matter is that it pervades all disciplines
so each and every reader finds it helpful in the understanding of his
or her main subjects.
Training counts and it will certainly be a significant change if inducted.
Regards
Sati Shankar
>>>> fragrance and value of what it carries" : "*bhArasya vettA*, *na tu
>>>> candanasya*". Aptly did Coomaraswamy reprimand ABKeith, insolence
>>>> incarnate, for example, with the Vedic taunt "*yas tan na veda kim RcA
>>>> karis"yati ?*" for foraying into realms that were beyond his ken, and
>>>>>> *Now is a crucial hour*, I guess, to make a good review. It is only
>>>>>> forces, and in a manner that *only it can fight *viz. academically.
>>>>>> replies for the *current *and relevant purva-paksha-s, I think we are
>>>>>> missing something vital.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If my doctor can administer medicine only to *cAturthika-jvara*, but
>>>>>>>> * Conference series for Purva-paksha on Western Indology*
>>>>>>>> English, but specialized jargon), and *(b)* the barriers of
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As a *remedial measure*, therefore, it is important to consider the
>>>>>>>> *attacks
What has been done and taught so far, be it due to colonial or
intellectual subordination, has much to be responsible for the
outcomes which we have seen so far.
It is never late and in the life of a country half a century is not a
long time, provided we decide and take necessary steps to correct the
situation.
So far as training in critical thinking and modern outlook, I have
found students feeling harassed or bombarded when we enlist subjects
which they ought to be families to attain ability of modern critical
thinking.
Just to keep them consoled with a feeling of light and simultaneously
introducing them with the core content, i name the subject, "Logic,
Methodology and Philosophy of Science" and found it acceptable to
students in wide spectrum... beginning from literature and social
sciences to Management, Sciences and Technology.
I have seen the impact myself in students, even if they have gone
through a popularizer level text in this field.
The beauty of the subject matter is that it pervades all disciplines
so each and every reader finds it helpful in the understanding of his
or her main subjects.
Training counts and it will certainly be a significant change if inducted.
Regards
Sati Shankar
>>>> candanasya*". Aptly did Coomaraswamy reprimand ABKeith, insolence
>>>> incarnate, for example, with the Vedic taunt "*yas tan na veda kim RcA
>>>> karis"yati ?*" for foraying into realms that were beyond his ken, and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Should the traditional scholarly fraternity be happy with what it is
>>>>>> offering now? Far from going on the offensive, we are not even
>>>>>> prepared for
>>>>>> the defensive. Too few have been alive to the fact that there is even
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> battle on! It is only now that a growing awareness of this assault is
>>>>>> beginning to dawn upon us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You speak of scientists who quietly go about their work. But if the
>>>>>> work they do is not broadcast by popularisers of science, who have
>>>>>> been in
>>>>>> such large numbers and have played such large roles, even the tribe
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> scientists would have languished, gaining little support from the
>>>>>> governments and the public. How little does our public know of the
>>>>>> academic
>>>>>> excellences, or the contents of scholarly output, of giants like
>>>>>> NSRamanuja
>>>>>> Tatacharya, Prahladacharya, Srivatsankacharya, or even Vineet
>>>>>> Chaitanya -
>>>>>> to name but a few ! But even more, how many are blessed to know, even
>>>>>> among
>>>>>> Sanskritists, of how their great academic output *answers the posers*
>>>>>> Should the traditional scholarly fraternity be happy with what it is
>>>>>> offering now? Far from going on the offensive, we are not even
>>>>>> prepared for
>>>>>> the defensive. Too few have been alive to the fact that there is even
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> battle on! It is only now that a growing awareness of this assault is
>>>>>> beginning to dawn upon us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You speak of scientists who quietly go about their work. But if the
>>>>>> work they do is not broadcast by popularisers of science, who have
>>>>>> been in
>>>>>> such large numbers and have played such large roles, even the tribe
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> scientists would have languished, gaining little support from the
>>>>>> governments and the public. How little does our public know of the
>>>>>> academic
>>>>>> excellences, or the contents of scholarly output, of giants like
>>>>>> NSRamanuja
>>>>>> Tatacharya, Prahladacharya, Srivatsankacharya, or even Vineet
>>>>>> Chaitanya -
>>>>>> to name but a few ! But even more, how many are blessed to know, even
>>>>>> among
>>>>>> of the vilifiers of our heritage?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The need of the hour is of the bridge-builders - who know the
>>>>>> purva-paksha too. If one knows only the siddhanta-s (albeit strong
>>>>>> ones)
>>>>>> against the *purva-paksha-s of bygone ages*, without providing apt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The need of the hour is of the bridge-builders - who know the
>>>>>> purva-paksha too. If one knows only the siddhanta-s (albeit strong
>>>>>> ones)
>>>>>> replies for the *current *and relevant purva-paksha-s, I think we are
>>>>>> missing something vital.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If my doctor can administer medicine only to *cAturthika-jvara*, but
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear traditional Indian scholar,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Recent times have witnessed many academic/non-academic
>>>>>>>> controversies
>>>>>>>> related to Western Indology. It is easily discerned that in terms
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> quality as well as quantity, the participation of Indian scholarship
>>>>>>>> (whose
>>>>>>>> heritage it is that is at stake primarily) has been very poor,
>>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>>> *academically*; this is as against that of the West, equipped as
>>>>>>>> Dear traditional Indian scholar,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Recent times have witnessed many academic/non-academic
>>>>>>>> controversies
>>>>>>>> related to Western Indology. It is easily discerned that in terms
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> quality as well as quantity, the participation of Indian scholarship
>>>>>>>> (whose
>>>>>>>> heritage it is that is at stake primarily) has been very poor,
>>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>>> it is with an aggressive scholarship backed by funding,
>>>>>>>> institutional support, libraries, conferences, journals, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Two of the significant reasons for the current state of Indian
>>>>>>>> scholarship are: *(a)* the barriers of language (not just ordinary
>>>>>>>> institutional support, libraries, conferences, journals, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Two of the significant reasons for the current state of Indian
>>>>>>>> English, but specialized jargon), and *(b)* the barriers of
>>>>>>>> multi-disciplinary approach, wherein Indians are at a disadvantage.
>>>>>>>> Various
>>>>>>>> circumstances may have contributed to this, but there is no escape
>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>> necessity of an *academic handling* of the issue.
>>>>>>>> Various
>>>>>>>> circumstances may have contributed to this, but there is no escape
>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As a *remedial measure*, therefore, it is important to consider the
>>>>>>>> issues raised by the West one by one, and study their merits and
>>>>>>>> demerits
>>>>>>>> in a series of conferences dealing with the major contributors to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> field. To begin with, *four key issues* raised by Sheldon Pollock
>>>>>>>> demerits
>>>>>>>> in a series of conferences dealing with the major contributors to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> are taken up. After a lucid and fair statement of the questions
>>>>>>>> raised by
>>>>>>>> him and their logic as purva-paksha, the uttara-paksha will be
>>>>>>>> attempted.
>>>>>>>> It is hoped that in this series of conferences - where *ad hominem
>>>>>>>> raised by
>>>>>>>> him and their logic as purva-paksha, the uttara-paksha will be
>>>>>>>> attempted.
>>>>>>>> *attacks
>>>>>>>> will be banned – we develop a responsible and responsive scholarship
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> handle the intellectual challenges of our times.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scholars are invited herewith to go through the attachment and
>>>>>>>> kindly respond by *Sunday, **April **3, 2016* with an expression
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> handle the intellectual challenges of our times.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scholars are invited herewith to go through the attachment and
Bijoy Misra
Mar 17, 2016, 9:28:27 AM3/17/16
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Nagarajji,
This is a solid point of view. In order to make analytical students we have to also produce analytic research.
Such has been my point of view. Research can very easily be in a "tunnel," on a specific area or a topic or a
word. But the relevance of research to application is where analysis comes into play. Analysis is hard because
it forces an alternate view. Most western work get into difficulty because the "alternate view" gets quickly drawn
without solving the "total" problem. In such situations, it looks "political." A strategy that Indian scholars can take
is to "expand" the problem and operate on a long time scale. Tenure or competition to publish must not be issue,
but pure creativity must be. I suppose it would need Government and social support.
"tunnel" research was imposed for a number of reasons. Raman rebelled. Good scholars must.
Best regards,
Bijoy Misra
Sati Shankar
Mar 17, 2016, 10:17:53 AM3/17/16
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
FYI,
A New Book review: The Battle for Sanskrit by Rajiv Malhotra
Regards
Sati Shankar
Sati Shankar
Mar 18, 2016, 1:07:21 AM3/18/16
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
AdarNiya vidvadjana,
Though I had a casual attention on Pollock's writings but this thread prompted me to revisit and reconsider the matter.
As we know, Grand theories have an appeal which lead explorers to take them as final, unless and untill the very foundations of the said theories are scrutinized.
The same approach is needed here and unless we scrutinize the very methodological foundations based on which Pollock has reached to his interpretations,reviewing and insisting the finished output will be a wastage of time and energy.
There are many serious methodological flaws in Pollock's approach, which have been pointed out by many authors and on which he has been silent and that must form the ground to shake the foundation.
Back to fundamentals is the only way for Indian thinkers as other than that they re in better off position buy infrastructure, finance and intellectual army.
I think a section on Methodological aspect should be added to the topics list which will overlap all the future conferences.
Regards
Sati Shankar
--
K S Kannan
Mar 18, 2016, 1:47:55 AM3/18/16
to bvparishat
Thank you Sri Sati Shankar, for your kind inputs.
We must examine every new thesis on grounds of
(a) the assumptions made,
(b) the logic pursued, and
(c) the conclusions reached, plus
(d) the way the conclusions are couched/framed. And also,
(e) the impact the new thesis will have in academics. And further,
(f) the way in which this will be exploited by the NGOs or even governments (state/central/foreign) for the pursuit of certain dishonourable designs.
Many of our intellectuals are opening their eyes to methodological issues only lately.
And as you rightly pointed out, unless our fundamentals are clear and strong, we will open our mouth only to our own peril, effectively weakening our own case.
News is afoot already (courtesy meta-indology group) that history texts are sought to be tampered with once again in US, in order to suit the nefarious ends.
This is when attention and care need to be paid to soundness of thought and correctness of expression.
KSKannan
Sati Shankar
Mar 18, 2016, 1:59:02 AM3/18/16
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Sir,
Your way of forming sentences is beautiful....
Regards
Sati Shankar
K S Kannan
Mar 18, 2016, 2:56:20 AM3/18/16
to bvparishat
Thank you.
Nagaraj Paturi
Mar 18, 2016, 3:08:47 PM3/18/16
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Dear Prof. Kannan,
To continue the discussion on critical thinking among our youngsters,
You said:
"As a general phenomenon, Indian boys and girls working in the fields of science and technology are rather more sensible. It is those who enter into the streams of humanities and social sciences, and especially those landing in Western universities, that are open to perversion, and eventually become hard-core despisers of anything Oriental in spirit. "
I think you would agree that this is because there is no scope for 'political' ' ideological' inputs in the curriculum of the fields of science and technology and there is such a scope in the streams of humanities and social sciences.
But my observation is that whether in S&T fields or Social Sciences and Humanities,
Students are not taught
(a) about plagiarism : e.g. students of s&t during their project work, in their project reports, seriously believe that the report is a compilation of various already available portions of texts into one 'essay' or 'book'. They don't know that they need to present the finding out of their project through argument, substantiation, referencing etc.
(b) the reasoning through which the theory has been arrived at: at many places the teacher says, they are just postulates, you have to just accept them as they are and the student follows it blindly.
(c) the intriguing questions that the theory answers/explains etc.
History teaching has been in the form of interesting/absorbing narrations of events. Such teachers are admired by students. Historiography , the method of history is not taught.
These are some examples.
Regards,
Nagaraj
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