Linear and Cyclic aspects of our Indian Time

[sadasivamurty rani]

A keen study of our astronomical texts help us to appreciate their intelligence in introducing both Linear and Cyclic aspects of our Indian Time. 

एवं विधेरहोरात्रै: कालगत्योपलक्षितै:।

अपक्षितमिवास्यापि (ब्रह्मण:) परमायुर्वय:शतम्॥

यदर्थमयुषस्तस्य परार्धमभिधीयते। 

पूर्व: परार्धोऽपक्रान्तो ह्यपरोऽद्य प्रवर्तते॥ 

While Lipta is one of the lowest units of time the HIGHEST unit of time is BRAHMAUYU      =(360KALPAS AND 360 KALPA LENGTH OF TIME X100 = 100YEARS of BRAHMA). This is not Cyclic.  This is Linear only. 

Further TWO PARARTHAS  (Purva Parartha - First Fifty years of Brahma's age and Dvitiya Parartha - The later Fifty years of Brahma's Age ) are also Linear. 

Then the KALPAS and PRALAYAS  (The days and Nights of Brahma’s age) are also Linear as our HUMAN DAYS and NIGHTS.

Each of these KALPAS consist of 1000 Mahayugas. These Mahayugas are CYCLIC.

In a span of KALPA there are 14 MANVANTARAS. Each Manvantara is equal to 71 MAHAYUGAS.

These Manvantaras CYCLIC.

The Four Yugas in each MAHAYUGA are LINEAR to that MAHAYUGA. In relation to the next MAHAYUGA they are CYCLIC.

Here there are two versions of YUGA PRAMANA.

KRTA YUGA = 17,28,000 years or 1728000/360 = 4,800 years

TRETA YUGA = 12,96,000 years or 12,96,000/360 = 3,600 years

DVAPARA YUGA = 8,64,000 years or 8,64,000/360 = 2,400 years

KALI YUGA is 4,32,000 years or 4,32,000/360 = 1,200years

 Here Second Yuga pramanas of Each yuga i.e. 4,800yrs, 3,600yrs, 2,400yrs, 1,200yrs are in DIVYA VARSHAS and not in HUMAN VARSHAS. According to Suryasiddhanta ONE HUMAN YEAR = a DAY for GODS. Such 360 days make a DIVINE YEAR or DIVYA VARSHA. So when the time lengths of KRTA, TRETA, DVAPARA and KALI in HUMAN YEARS are divided by 360 we get the lengths of those YUGAS in DIVYA VARSHAS.

After YUGAS and MAHA YUGAS the 60 years PRABHAVA to AKSHAYA – They are CYCLIC.

 The Reason for accepting certain units TIME in CYCLIC scale is for achieving brevity in expression just as the brevity is achieved through using POWERS in ALGEBRA. – 2² , 2¹² and so on. Due to that brevity it is easy to remember.

WHAT CAN BE THIS BRAHMAN? –

Puranas have different kinds of interpretations such as explicit, implied, mystic and so on. Explicitly though the word BRAHMAN refers to the four headed BRAHMAN – The Popular Creater-GOD as per the implied meaning which can be derived from the root verb of BRAHMAN i.e. बृंह् - वर्धने, बृंह् - विस्फोटने

Deriving BRAHMAN from these verbs may help us to bring a comparison between the popular western BIG BANG THEORY  and the process of the EMERGENCE of the UNIVERSE from BRAHMAN. The Popular HIRANYA GARBHA SUKTA of RGVEDA has very close resemblance with the western BIG BANG THEORY.

 

In both these senses – BRAHMAN can be the OMNI PRESENT ENTITY manifested as UNIVERSE. Perhaps for this reason only the Upanishadic Texts say – SARVAM  KHALU IDAM BRAHMAN. Accordingly the UNIVERSE is considered to be the phenomenal manifestation of BRAHMAN.

So BRAHMAYU in the Astronomical texts is the AYUSH of the UNIVERSE.

SOME SPECIAL LINEAR ERAS IN INDIAN CALENDAR – on par with the present Christian Era year – 2014.

1.      KALPABDA – 1,97,29,49,114 years

2.      Srshti Samvat – 1,95,58,85,114 years

3.      Vamana Samvat – 1,96,08,89,114 years

4.      Sri Rama Samvat – 1,25,69,114 years (in the 17^th Treta Yuga the Ramayana took place according to some sources) (out of the fear of time and space I am confining to this extent)

5.      Srikrishna Samvat – 5,239 years

6.      Yudhisthira Samvat – 114 years (This is from the day of Yudhisthira’s ascending the throne after the Mahabharata War)

7.      Bauddha Samvat – 2588 years

8.      Sri Shankaracharya’s Samvat – 2293 years

9.      Vikrama Samvat – 2072 years

10.  Salivahana Saka – 1936 years

 For all these TEN calculations textual sources are there. But in the present mail I am confining to this much information only.

With warm regards, 

Dr. Rani Sadasiva Murty

[rniyengar]

Dear Dr.Murty,

The word "Lipta" [a word of Greek origin] seems to have been used for denoting the angular measure of "one minute" which is 1/60th part of a 'degree'. "Vilipta" also appears which is 1/60th of Lipta, that is the modern angular (arc) 'second'.  It would be interesting if you could kindly provide siddhantic astronomy text reference to 'lipta' as a unit of time. The real Sanskrit word, Lipta carries the meaning of "smeared, anointed,.." and I am unable to relate this meaning with a time measure. Please help.

Thanks

RNI

[sadasivamurty rani]

rniyengar mahodaya!

Pranams. 

Thank you very much  for giving me an opportunity to once again go through our Ancient Indian Astronomical works and KOSA granthas. The word LIPTAA is  found in the Units of Kshetra and not in the Units of Kaala in Texts like Surya Siddhanta.  But in Brahma Siddhanta and Parasara Hora Sastra there is a recommendation to the extent of adapting the names of KAALA Units to Kshetra Units and vice versa. Even Vacaspatyam (Nighantu) LIPTAA (AAkaranta Strilinga Sabda) is given as a time unit. 

I could collect some more sources in support of LIPTAA as a KAALA unit. But now I am starting to VARANASI and come back on 15th September to my place. Then I shall take the opportunity to give my detailed answer.

With warm regards, 

 

Dr. Rani Sadasiva Murty

--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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[Damodara Dasa]

Hare Krishna.
Dear Sirs,
I could find following in Srimad Bhagavatam 3rd Canto, chapter 11
regarding time measurement units in those times:

One truTi - 8/13,500 second
One vedha- 8/135 second
One lava - 8/45 second
One nimeSha- 8/15 second
One kShaNa- 8/5 second
One kAShThA-8 seconds
One laghu- 2 minutes
One daNDa- 30 minutes
One prahara- 3 hours
One day - 12 hours
One night - 12 hours
One pakSha- 15 days
More higher time scales are also mentioned there like yugas,
divya-yugas, days-nights and life time of brahma. May be this can
help.

Thankyou,
Damodara Das
09737475085

On 9/6/14, 'sadasivamurty rani' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

--
www.bvks.com
www.speakingstrongly.com

[R. N. iyengar]

Dr.Murty,Namaste, The reference texts cited by you are well known (see below). But they do not seem to support your meaning of "Lipta"as a small measure of time. I could not locate ''lipta in BPHS. For that I await your return from the holy city. Utpala in his commentary on Br.sam quotes Parashara-tantra (brought out by me in book form in 2013). 

There are two definitions for Kaala here. The older one is 2.1. But a new one is added in 2.2 which contains the word Liptaa. Kaala-kshetrayoh saamyam means only a similarity but not sameness.

Like 30 muhurtas for a day there are 30 parts in a Rashi etc..The kshetra above is the path of sun (ecliptic), with respect to nakshatras, though not explicitly stated to be so in this place.

Brahmasiddhanta (Vindhyesvari prasad dvivedi, Varanasi. 1912)

Vachaspatyam Vol.6 p.4828

Since I am working on the historical foundations of siddhantic astronomy, (particularly about its indigenous roots), this discussion has become necessary.

thanks

RN Iyengar

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste,

Quote

अथ क्षेत्रे । षष्ट्या तत्पराणां विलिप्ता भवति । विलिप्तानां षष्ट्या लिप्ता । लिप्तानां षष्ट्या भागः ।

भागानां त्रिंशता राशिः । राशिद्वादशकं भगन इति ।

Unquote

From this verse it appears that 60 Liptaas equal 4 minutes of time in Right Ascension (RA) and 1 arc-degree. This means 1 Liptaa is equal to 4 seconds of time in RA and 1-arc-second.

Regards,

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Parāśara Samhita has verses giving time measure in terms of liptas.

 

AadaraNIya Rani Sadashiv Murtyji's explanation that the words for spatial/angular measures being extended metaphorically for time measures is not unusual is convincing. Such a usage has parallels in western terminology for time measure also. The most used terms 'minutes' and 'seconds' themselves are examples. It is well known that they are both angular and time measures.  

Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[rniyengar]

Dear Prof.Paturi, I am not questioning whether 'Lipta' could be used for time measure. The doubt is whether it WAS used by our ancient astronomers or sky watchers as a 'time measure'. For clarifying this I have to depend on Sanskrit texts and hence my curiosity. I would be greatly obliged if you can quote and give references to "Parāśara Samhita" (publisher, chapter/verses) which you mention in your post.  It will be of immense interest to me if it is different from the prose text I have quoted from Utpala's commentary on the Br.Samhita. Since "lipta' as an angular unit (arc-minute) is original to Greece, notwithstanding its Sanskritic-sound-form, study of this issue helps one in knowing how and when the interaction might have taken place. As a matter of fact Kala and Vikala were used for the same angular units namely Lipta and Vilipta by some but not all. Hence there is a possibility even in pre-siddhantic period there was the concept of angle measure, but this is not a well studied topic (to the best of my knowledge). Now, one may point out 'Angula" and "Angle" are perhaps phonetically  too close (I am not a linguist) and hence "angula' of the Shulba sutras could have been used for the "kshetra" that is the space in the sky. But there are no evidences for such use. Angula is a linear measure in the shulba sutras. The concept of 'similarity between time and sky-space' goes back to the Matrayaniya AraNyaka  (6.14-18), but the smallest angular-space measure indirectly mentioned there is "amsha" taken to be equal to one-fourth of Nakshatra-span. The status of the word "Lipta" as a Snaskrit word is of historical importance. In this connection I request BVP scholars to enlighten me on whether traditional Sanskrit Grammarians have used "Lipta" as a time measure in their texts anywhere. 

Regards

Rn Iyengar

[Nagaraj Paturi]

1. It is neither improbable nor inappropriate for 'lipta' to have a Greek origin.

 

2. It is true that the history of a 'lipta' with a Greek origin would help throw light on Greek-Sanskrit interaction.

 

3. Currently the word 'lipta' as a time unit is widely being circulated in the majority of Indian astrological circles. Whether it has come into this degree of currency without any authentic textual source (through probably some undocumented oral tradition) or it has a textual documentation of an older time needs to be verified.

 

4. The Paraas'ara Samhita quote I gave is from secondary sources which did not provide proper references to the original sources.

 

5. I shall be on a look out for the primary source and shall get back to you if I am successful in my efforts.

 

6. Let us also wait for AadaraNIya Sadashiva Murtyji to return from the pilgrimage.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

I realize that the present widespread use of lipta vilipta as time units in almost every corner of Indian astrological circles in all the discussions of Ancient Indian time measure traces its use to Parasara Samhita as quoted by Bhattotpala in his commentary of Brihat Samhita only. Everyone seems to be going with तत्र कालाक्षेत्रयो स्साम्यम्

.

The copy of Brihat Samhita I have is from Archive.org and is a 1946 publication with PVS Shastry's English translation.

--

Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[Haresh Gala]

Namaste ,

There is Big Blog Post About

Is Vedic astrology derived from Greek astrology? - Arguments Against It

May be useful....

Pls chk

http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.in/search/label/Greek%20astrology%20vs%20Vedic%20astrology

regards

haresh

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 3:14 PM, rniyengar <narayana...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Bvk sastry]

Namaste

The question of < greek astronomy/ astrology as source of vedic astrology/ astronomy> can not be satisfactorily resolved without

Total clarity < on antecedent - precedent- derivative> Modelling and relation of  Greek-Latin and other languages in relation to

Vedic language, in the frame work of Paninian rules.

In the current scenario of debates, there is an abundant prejudice overloaded in the views of debaters on both sides; 

The greek influence team looking at a historic linear time scale and

Indian thinkers preferring larger than life  cyclic time scales.

The instrument based time measure - like the seconds based on natural oscillation of a quartz crystal, the frequency of light coupled the measure of speed of light need to have a clarity of concept

In traditional frame.

Translating light- year = jyotirvarsha; seconds= a specific unit of time connected to wink of eye or articulation of a sound unit is extremely individualized working. 

In short, there is a critical need to revisit the theories of languages and language- derivative vocabulary across technical disciplines.

The errors of translation and text- inaccuracies have added newer dimensions in these studies; these are also to be addressed.

Regards

Bvk Sastry

Sent from my iPhone

[Haresh Gala]

Namaste ,

Many Aspect from this book .. cld be useful ..

Ancient  Indian Measurement – Interpreting them in Right way

 https://www.scribd.com/doc/24736841/Indian-Astronomy

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