Women and सन्ध्यावन्दनम् (from सन्ध्यावन्दनम् )

[Nagaraj Paturi]

A new thread is being started to avoid digression from the thread सन्ध्यावन्दनम् where the jijnāsā of the thread initiator is being attended to.:

G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 9:25 PM wrote:

Respected scholars,

Valmiki says: सन्ध्याकालमनाः श्यामा ध्रुवमेश्ः(Sh)यति जानकी । नदीं चेमां शूभजलां सन्ध्यार्थे वरवर्णीनी ॥ सु-१४-४९॥ गोरखपुर्.

This verse is interpreted to mean that Sita would visit the river in the evening for sandhyavandanam. One could construe that women during times Valmiki lived or wrote about, women did sandhyavandanam.

Regards,

Murthy 

sunil bhattacharjya<skbhatt...@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 11:07 PM wrote:

That a girl can undergo the upanayanam is given in the Harita Smriti. Probably they wore it like a necklace. As I understand, the girl will have her father as the guru. I am open to correction.

Regards,

skb  

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Arya Samaj, Gayatri Parivar and such modern movements make women perform Sandhyaa Vandanam. 

Some time ago I shared women in Arya Samaj reciting Veda mantras.

There are women priests chanting Veda mantras today, inside and outside these modern movements. 

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 10:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

A new thread is being started to avoid digression from the thread सन्ध्यावन्दनम् where the jijnāsā of the thread initiator is being attended to.:

G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 9:25 PM wrote:

Respected scholars,

Valmiki says: सन्ध्याकालमनाः श्यामा ध्रुवमेश्ः(Sh)यति जानकी । नदीं चेमां शूभजलां सन्ध्यार्थे वरवर्णीनी ॥ सु-१४-४९॥ गोरखपुर्.

This verse is interpreted to mean that Sita would visit the river in the evening for sandhyavandanam. One could construe that women during times Valmiki lived or wrote about, women did sandhyavandanam.

Regards,

Murthy 

sunil bhattacharjya<skbhattacharjya@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 11:07 PM wrote:

That a girl can undergo the upanayanam is given in the Harita Smriti. Probably they wore it like a necklace. As I understand, the girl will have her father as the guru. I am open to correction.

Regards,

skb  

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

correction:

Some time ago I shared a video of women in Arya Samaj reciting Veda mantras.

not

Some time ago I shared women in Arya Samaj reciting Veda mantras.

[V Subrahmanian]

http://avg-sanskrit.org/sutras/4-1-63.html

 यद्यपि स्त्रीणामध्ययनं प्रतिषिद्धम्, तथापि पुराकल्पे ह्येतदासीत् ।

तदाह यमः–

`पुराकल्पे तु नारीणां मौञ्जीबन्धनमिष्यते।

अध्यापनं च वेदानां सावित्रीवचनं तथा ।।   'इति।

सुब्रह्मण्यशर्मा

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 10:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

A new thread is being started to avoid digression from the thread सन्ध्यावन्दनम् where the jijnāsā of the thread initiator is being attended to.:

G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 9:25 PM wrote:

Respected scholars,

Valmiki says: सन्ध्याकालमनाः श्यामा ध्रुवमेश्ः(Sh)यति जानकी । नदीं चेमां शूभजलां सन्ध्यार्थे वरवर्णीनी ॥ सु-१४-४९॥ गोरखपुर्.

This verse is interpreted to mean that Sita would visit the river in the evening for sandhyavandanam. One could construe that women during times Valmiki lived or wrote about, women did sandhyavandanam.

Regards,

Murthy 

sunil bhattacharjya<skbhattacharjya@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 11:07 PM wrote:

That a girl can undergo the upanayanam is given in the Harita Smriti. Probably they wore it like a necklace. As I understand, the girl will have her father as the guru. I am open to correction.

Regards,

skb  

--

[ajit.gargeshwari]

Respected scholars,

Valmiki says: सन्ध्याकालमनाः श्यामा ध्रुवमेश्ः(Sh)यति जानकी । नदीं चेमां शूभजलां सन्ध्यार्थे वरवर्णीनी ॥ सु-१४-४९॥ गोरखपुर्.

This verse is interpreted to mean that Sita would visit the river in the evening for sandhyavandanam. One could construe that women during times Valmiki lived or wrote about, women did sandhyavandanam.

Regards,

Murthy
My web site : http://murthygss.tripod.com/index.htm
and also my Sanskrit blog :

http://simplesanskrit.blogspot.com/

http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com

I would like to know where Sandhyavandana as ritual is mentioned in the above quoted verse. Sandhya Kala means evening times or in the evening
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

[Sivasenani Nori]

On 28 March 2017 at 10:54, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

A new thread is being started to avoid digression from the thread सन्ध्यावन्दनम् where the jijnāsā of the thread initiator is being attended to.:

G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 9:25 PM wrote:

Respected scholars,

Valmiki says: सन्ध्याकालमनाः श्यामा ध्रुवमेश्ः(Sh)यति जानकी । नदीं चेमां शूभजलां सन्ध्यार्थे वरवर्णीनी ॥ सु-१४-४९॥ गोरखपुर्.

This verse is interpreted to mean that Sita would visit the river in the evening for sandhyavandanam. One could construe that women during times Valmiki lived or wrote about, women did sandhyavandanam.

Regards,

Murthy 

​The way I heard it, Sandhyavandanam is a nityakarma. Everybody has to do it.​ Those who have Veda-adhikaara should do it with Vedic mantras; others should do it with Slokas or should at least recite the twelve names of Aditya. Also, when Suryanamaskaras are taught to children, the twelve names are taught along with the different poses.

Regards

N. Siva Senani

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I wrote with reference Sandhyavandana as ritual men do it do women do it and does the particular verse Murthyji quoted implies that Sita performed Sandhya Vandana or just she offered her evening prayers by the river side.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Yes, Dr Gargeshwari,

Answer to your question is due from Sri Murthyji. 

AadaraNIya Sivasenaniji was not responding to your question. He was responding to Sri GSS Murthyji directly without agreeing or disagreeing with Sri Murthyji's interpretation of the verse. 

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[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

 सन्ध्याकालमनाः श्यामा ध्रुवमेश्ः(Sh)यति जानकी । नदीं चेमां शूभजलां सन्ध्यार्थे वरवर्णीनी ॥ सु-१४-४९॥ गोरखपुर्.

This verse is interpreted to mean that Sita would visit the river in the evening for sandhyavandanam. One could construe that women during times Valmiki lived or wrote about, women did sandhyavandanam.

                                   --- Vidvan GSS Murty

सन्ध्यार्थे does not mean ' for सन्ध्यावन्दनम् ’ - because nowhere in any authentic work it is stated that one should to to a नदी for सन्ध्यावन्दनम् ।

Rather , following the नमकमन्त्र - ’ गोपा अदृशन्नदृशन्नुदहार्यः ’  Sita went to fetch water as it is सन्ध्याकाल - one should not fetch water during night .

We have to check as to whether the commentator had had the knowledge of the above धर्मशास्त्रम् ।

Apastamba says - पाणिग्रहाणात् सहत्वं कर्मसु पुण्यफलेषु च ।

पत्नी would partake in the पुण्यफल ( never in पापफल) of पति । So राम performed सन्ध्यावन्दनम् and सीता  need not .

Another fact is that --

पुरा कल्पेषु नारीणां मौञ्जीबन्धनमिष्यते ।

अध्यापनं च वेदानां सावित्रीवचनं तथा ॥

Patanjali gives some examples in स्त्रीप्रत्ययप्रकरणम्--

काशकृत्स्निना प्रोक्ता मीमांसा  काशकृत्स्ना  - that means काशकृत्स्ना was a Vedic scholar .

औदमेय्याः  छात्राः  औदमेयाः - there were good and great women scholers .

Note this मनुस्मृति --

अन्ये कृतयुगे धर्माः त्रेतायां द्वापरे युगे ।

अन्ये कलियुगे नृणां युगरूपानुसारतः ॥

क्रुते तु मानवा धर्माः त्रेतायां  गौतमाः स्मृताः ॥

द्वापरे शङ्खलिखिताः कलौ पाराशराः स्मृताः ॥

even today we come across some ladies offering waters to आदित्य ।

अमन्त्रकम् it is okay.

According to पूर्वमीमांसा - स्त्रीशूद्रयोः वेदधिकारो नास्स्ति ।

Since many of  the present day पुरोहितs are not good I taught - गणपतिपूजा , पुण्याहवाचनम् , मन्त्रपुष्पम् and पुरुषसूक्तम् to my son and daughter .

You have आपद्धर्मs in उद्योगपर्व of महाभारतम् ।

वेदो’खिलो धर्ममूलं ...... आत्मनस्तुष्तिरेव च ( भृगुः in मनुस्मृति)

धन्यो’स्मि

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit, CALTS,
University of Hyderabad,
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R),040-23133660(O)

Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

Blog: Koradeeyam.blogspot.in 

[Jsr Prasad]

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 8:37 PM, ajit.gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Respected scholars,

Valmiki says: सन्ध्याकालमनाः श्यामा ध्रुवमेश्ः(Sh)यति जानकी । नदीं चेमां शूभजलां सन्ध्यार्थे वरवर्णीनी ॥ सु-१४-४९॥ गोरखपुर्.

This verse is interpreted to mean that Sita would visit the river in the evening for sandhyavandanam. One could construe that women during times Valmiki lived or wrote about, women did sandhyavandanam.

Regards,

Murthy

I would like to know where Sandhyavandana as ritual is mentioned in the above quoted verse. Sandhya Kala means evening times or in the evening

सन्ध्याकालमनाः श्यामा धृवमेष्यति जानकी ।
नदीं चेमां शुभजलां सन्ध्यार्थे वरवर्णिनी ।।5.14.49।।

Two word constructions need our attention in the verse - सन्ध्याकालमनाः and सन्ध्यार्थे ।

• तिलककार explains the sloka as following:

What is सन्ध्या? दिनरात्र्योः सन्धिरूपानुष्ठानकालः ।
What has been meant by सन्ध्या-काल-मनाः ? दिनरात्र्योः सन्धिरूपानुष्ठानकालो यस्य कर्मणः तत्र मनो यस्याः, सा ।

What is सन्ध्यार्थे? सन्ध्याकालक्रियमाणस्नानाद्यर्थे ।

Further, tilakakaara elaborates - (सन्ध्याशब्देन अत्र प्रातःकालो विवक्षितः ।) तत्र कर्तव्यस्नानादौ च अस्त्येव स्त्रीणामप्यधिकार इति कथं स्त्रीणां सन्ध्यावन्दनमिति परास्तं वेदितव्यम् । Then what has been granted to the women in context of सन्ध्या? "सम्यग् भगवद्ध्यानस्यैव सन्ध्यापदार्थत्वेन अस्त्येव तत्र स्त्रिया अधिकारः ।

He ends the annotation by clarifying - गायत्रीमन्त्रेण तदर्थस्मरणपूर्वकध्याने तु द्विजस्यैवाधिकार इत्यन्यत् ।

• Siromani-kaara briefly comments on सन्ध्या-काल-मनाः-
  

सन्ध्याकालः समयो यस्य तस्मिन् स्नानजपादौ मनो यस्याः सा श्यामा...

The sandhyaa-vandana ritual, about which another thread is being discussed, had not been explicitly mentioned by the tiikA-kaaras. It also needs our focus on tilaka-kaara's comment on गायत्रीमन्त्र and द्विज ।

Regards,

Prasad

[Nagaraj Paturi]

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 10:02 PM, Sivasenani Nori <sivas...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks aadaraNIya Sivasenaniji, for this view. 

That is how I have been taught. 

Nityakarma means activity natural to all beings all over the universe.

Sun worship is almost a universal cultural practice. In different parts of the world, it had different forms before they were wiped out in the name of anti-paganism etc. 

Particularly in India, I grew up watching people of several different castes offering arghya and namaskaras to Sun. 

They did not know that that is called arghya. 

Without using any Sanskrit lines, they used to do exactly what diṅnamaskāra-s mean, facing all directions. 

It looked almost like an amantraka Sandhyavandanam. 

 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Thank you Prof. Korda for confirming Dharma Shastras have no sanction for women doing Sandhyavandana as a ritual men do it. The Ramayana verse doesn't imply what Murtyji is saying.  The commentators has not explicitly implied the word in the given verse to mean Sandhya Vandanam as a ritual as Prof Prasad has mentioned.

Arya Samaj are different group all together where they have their own interpretations.

We live in a changed time where gender equality is major issue. Women may perform any ritual if they choose to. As women are going to court to enter temples they may also perform any rituals.

Amantraka sandhyavandana or any ritual explains गायत्रीमन्त्र and द्विज

[sunil bhattacharjya]

As I understand certain sanshyakala rituals are generally done by ladies. In my childhood my mother used to light lamps every evening, in the Kartika month, near the Tulashi plant and all the members of our family would join her and pray to mother Tulashi.

Regards,

Sunil KB

[Jsr Prasad]

काशकृत्स्निना प्रोक्ता मीमांसा  काशकृत्स्ना  - that means काशकृत्स्ना was a Vedic scholar .

औदमेय्याः  छात्राः  औदमेयाः - there were good and great women scholers .

The debate between the woman Vedic scholar Sulabha and king Janaka in Shantiparva might be interesting. Finally she defeats him, as per Bhishma's narration.

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Mandana Misras wife was asked to be the judge in the great debate that took place between Sanakara and Mandana Misra as traditions have recorded. During Sankaracharyas time women were great scholars.

Women were Vedic Rishis and Rishis have no gender or caste distinction. From high ideals to twisting shastras to suit ones needs

Lighting a lamp or doing pujas without reciting vedic mantras as many women do were not probably implied by the sages for whom vedas got revealed or Gayatri mantras got revealed. Many dharma shastras quickly brush aside tough question by saying there not applicable in Kali age and quickly quote yuga dharma. If rituals and their traditions needs to continue it may not be a bad idea to involve women also in rituals which are exclusively reserved for men. For performing shraddha there are certain exceptional cases where women can perform. Ramayana verse doesn't say about Sita performing Sanadhya vandana ritual though Ramayana holds women in very high esteem.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

-

[Jsr Prasad]

Yes, I appreciate your example to Ubhaya Bharati, Ajit ji. However -

Ramayana verse doesn't say about Sita performing Sanadhya vandana ritual though Ramayana holds women in very high esteem.

all that we need to see is whether Siitaa maa qualifies for a 'dwija' as per the vyaakhyaa-kaara. Ramayana epitomizing  women in high esteem has nothing to do with her grant of performing sandhyaa-vandanam. After all, Ramayanam is not only रामस्य अयनम् but also रामायाः अयनम् ।

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 11:26 PM, Jsr Prasad <jsrap...@gmail.com> wrote:

all that we need to see is whether Siitaa maa qualifies for a 'dwija' as per the vyaakhyaa-kaara. Ramayana epitomizing  women in high esteem has nothing to do with her grant of performing sandhyaa-vandanam. After all, Ramayanam is not only रामस्य अयनम् but also रामायाः अयनम् ।

​Are there are instances to show Dvijas were women? or does the word mean only men. I am asking this question out of curiosity to understand the role of women in Nityakarma. If Nityakarmas are for purifying the mind do men and women women have different ways to purify their minds? If nitykarma implies bhakti then why the difference. If Nitykarma is for the sake karma and nothing else then Karma and its phala does it happen different for men and women? As Sandhya Vandana is a nitya Karma why is it not exclusively said in Dhama Shastras and smritis it is obligatory for all dvijas.Please help me to understand my questions in the right perspective​.

[Jsr Prasad]

Who is a 'dvija?' one who is twice born (द्विर्जायते इति द्विजः) is dvija. The intellectual, the warrior and the trading classes are called dvijas. Earlier, the verse 'पुराकल्पे तु नारीणां...' has been quoted by Prof. Korada ji and Sri Subramanian ji. In that sense, it may be most likely that women of ancient times, qualify for a 'dvija?' I believe, with regard to forbidding women from the nitya-karmas (one of the three types of karmas) was/is not based on 'social' gender.

But, instead, it could be based on their 'biological' gender (so, gender has two senses, social&biological) they were/are avoided in Vaidika karmas; since they undergo the monthly menstrual cycle and considered to be 'ashuci' for 3-5 days. Gynecological aspects such as pregnancy etc., add heavily to this too, as they consume little over nine months.

Another example - when men do saashtaangam, it is performed as per injunctions of dharma-shastra. Where as women should not do the same way, why? Because their garbha/uterus should be protected by all means (furthermore, as per dharma-shastra, elders say that their वक्षस्स्थल should not touch the ground - भूमाता).  I think, these kind of reasons may form a justification between the difference of ways of men and women performing nitya/naimittika/kaamya karmas.

If nitykarma implies bhakti then why the difference.

As per the above justification there should not be any discrimination that can be symbolically seen from thee following giitokti-

यत्साङ्ख्यैः प्राप्यते स्थानं तद्योगैरपि गम्यते । (5.5)

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Thank you this answers my queries to large extent.

"Why was this rule formed specifically for women " it could be based on their 'biological' gender (so, gender has two senses, social&biological) they were/are avoided in Vaidika karmas; since they undergo the monthly menstrual cycle and considered to be 'ashuci' for 3-5 days."

Because their garbha/uterus should be protected by all means (furthermore, as per dharma-shastra, elders say that their वक्षस्स्थल should not touch the ground - भूमाता). "

Is it applicable to both men and women or only to women as men do have an equal contribution towards continuation of ones generation.

When there is death in family or when men have contagious infections can nitya Karma be performed. If answer is no them is there a bias towards a gender paying only lip sympathy towards equality men and women or was gender equality  applicable only to rishis and Gods and not to men.

Restricting my questions only towards nitya karmas as this thread can only discuss Nitya karma and Sandhyavandana is apart of Nitya karma.

I am sorry does any body else get these question is it only me gets such questions?

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Jsr Prasad]

अत्र तु विद्वांसः प्रमाणम्, नाहमधिकारी : )
 

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Even I am not a adhikari. I hope some scholars may attempt to answer. My question is not challenge usages or practice but try to understated why such practices exists. As Dharma Shastras allow changes

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 1:14 AM, Jsr Prasad <jsrap...@gmail.com> wrote:

अत्र तु विद्वांसः प्रमाणम्, नाहमधिकारी : )
 

When there is death in family or when men have contagious infections can nitya Karma be performed. If answer is no them is there a bias towards a gender paying only lip sympathy towards equality men and women or was gender equality  applicable only to rishis and Gods and not to men.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

> I am sorry does any body else get these question is it only me gets such questions?

--- Most of the moderns have been raising these questions time and again. 

> Is it applicable to both men and women or only to women as men do have an equal contribution towards continuation of ones generation.

--- What does 'it' refer to here ? 

they undergo the monthly menstrual cycle and considered to be 'ashuci' for 3-5 days ?

their garbha/uterus should be protected by all means ?

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

There was a thread on BVP on "Ritual purity in Hinduism" here. 

In that thread, I said :

1. The word 'ritual purity' is already an English word. Both the components of it 'ritual' and 'purity' are from outside the system that we are talking about it.

2. Cultural Anthropology is the modern discipline that deals with the concept of 'purity' from an intercultural, global, comparative perspective. There, it is always dealt in contrast with another concept 'pollution'. For example, what you discussed under 3 below is called 'ritual pollution'.

3. Your example shows that what you have in mind is, obviously, a 'purity -pollution' which is different from physical cleanliness / physical uncleanliness.  

4. In Cultural Anthropology, the culture-insider's ideas are called 'emic' ideas and the analyst's categories are called 'etic' categories. Emic categories in Sanskritic tradition for the purity-pollution that you are talking about are 's'oucha-as'oucha'.

5. What you described under 3 below is called mrita- as'oucha. There is jaata as'oucha too.

>I am looking for books and articles that critically deal with the concept of ritual purity in Hinduism.

---- 6. There are studies by scholars like Prof. T N Madan and Prof. McKim Marriott on these issues from a Cultural Anthropological perspective. 

7. Bhakti traditions such as Veerashaivism consider that Deekshas such as 'ishtalingadhaaraNa' can nullify such as'ouchas.  There are many other traditions which do not negate the idea of as'oucha per say, but consider a certain tool or tools of their tradition can nullify the as'oucha. 

8. In general, what rituals are not to be performed by a person in as'oucha etc. are covered in books such as Dharmasindhu. 

9. Many other prohibitions beyond such books are either local customs or svakapolakalpitas.     

[Nagaraj Paturi]

I also said there:

That the ideas of purity and pollution and their association with death, menstrual blood etc. are not peculiar to Hinduism but are  almost cultural universals may be realized by reading articles such as this

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 8:43 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am sorry does any body else get these question is it only me gets such questions?

--- Most of the moderns have been raising these questions time and again. 

​Thanks doesnot make me alone.​

 

> Is it applicable to both men and women or only to women as men do have an equal contribution towards continuation of ones generation.

--- What does 'it' refer to here ? 

 I meant to say protecting garbha/uterus for women and generative organ for men/ vitality is equally important to continue ones generation and to have healthy off springs. I am not questioning hygiene. But misusing the word hygiene making it discriminatory and arbitrary is the problem. In practice the emphasis often is on ' purity -pollution' rather than on physical cleanliness / physical uncleanliness. 

Many other prohibitions beyond such books are either local customs or svakapolakalpitas.  

​The emphasis is always on svakapolakalpitas. which is the unfortunate part.​

I shall try to read the books and articles that have been mentioned to better understated these discriminatory practices and to get the right perspective.

Thank you Prof. Paturi and Prof. Prasad, Prof. Korada and other scholars for having responded to my questions

[Venkata Sriram]

Pls refer to the topic "अशौचे सन्ध्योपासनं" of अशौच काण्ड from स्मृतिमुक्ताफलम्

http://vaidyanatha.ambaa.org/SMP3_aashaucha.pdf

The sandhyavandana, which is a nityakarma, should never be quit.  During ashaucha, one should perform the karma till till arghya-pradAna and the rest should be done mAnasika. 

Only those who are bedridden and cannot perform, for them, their sa-gotrikAs like brothers can perform in their name and give the gayatri tirtham to them.

regs,

sriram

[Nagaraj Paturi]

In that thread, I also said:

The concepts of 'ritual purity' and 'ritual pollution' belong to the realm of super-natural. Thus 'ritual purity' is supernatural (related) purity and 'ritual pollution' is supernatural (related) pollution. 

Here the word 'pollution' has no connotation of 'bad'. For example, as'oucha accruing due to death is not 'bad'. It does not come in the way of the as'oucha-holding person performing the Vaidika rituals of communicating with the ancestral spirits. Those rituals are not 'bad' rituals. They are 'good' rituals only. To perform them, the performing kartaa needs physical cleanliness, and many other conditions of 'purity'. Even the 'ritual pollution' of a different kind accruing from the touch or sight of a menstruating woman can badly affect the 'purity' required for performing such rituals. 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:06 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

The concepts of 'ritual purity' and 'ritual pollution' belong to the realm of super-natural. Thus 'ritual purity' is supernatural (related) purity and 'ritual pollution' is supernatural (related) pollution. 

Here the word 'pollution' has no connotation of 'bad'. For example, as'oucha accruing due to death is not 'bad'. It does not come in the way of the as'oucha-holding person performing the Vaidika rituals of communicating with the ancestral spirits. Those rituals are not 'bad' rituals. They are 'good' rituals only. To perform them, the performing kartaa needs physical cleanliness, and many other conditions of 'purity'. Even the 'ritual pollution' of a different kind accruing from the touch or sight of a menstruating woman can badly affect the 'purity' required for performing such rituals. 

​I heard a rationalist say justifying or trying to justify irrational and superstitious acts in the name of God and forcing it on one own family ,others  and society at large is equally irrational and dangerous to the noble principles on which the rihis visualized  vedas and Dharma Shastra​ authors have tried to interpret.

A ritual is a ritual from the ritualistic perspective all rituals gives rise to phala some good some bad depending on the ritual. A ritual is performed independently and is not changed or modified to suit ones needs as the seers of the rituals knew what results a ritual can give and what result a modified ritual can give etc. Unfortunately many rituals are either blindly performed or performed with fear with little or no understanding about ritual itself.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

> I shall try to read the books and articles that have been mentioned to better understated these discriminatory practices and to get the right perspective.

-- You might have wanted to say,  

I shall try to read the books and articles that have been mentioned to better understated these practices that appear to be discriminatory and to get the right perspective.

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:51 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

​​

I shall try to read the books and articles that have been mentioned to better understated these discriminatory practices and to get the right perspective.

-- You might have wanted to say,  

I shall try to read the books and articles that have been mentioned to better understated these practices that appear to be discriminatory and to get the right perspective.

​No​

​

​

I shall try to read the books and articles that have been mentioned to better understated these discriminatory practices and to get the right perspective.​

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The word 'discriminatory' is the crux of the problem in all such contexts:

One worldview is:

"I love/like/respect you along with what you are, how you are and what you do as long as it is ethical" 

Consequence of that is,

"I love to be what I am, how I am and what I do, I celebrate what I am, how I am and what I do since you love/like/respect me along with what I am , how I am and what I do as long as it is ethical"

Another worldview is :

"You do what I do. You be what I am and how I am. Only then are you lovable"

Consequence is:

"You must allow me to be what you are, how you are and allow me to do what you do since that is the way you love me or respect me."

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 10:06 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

You do what I do. You be what I am and how I am. Only then are you lovable"

​Unfortunately the consequence "You must allow me to be what you are, how you are and allow me to do what you do since that is the way you love me or respect me."​ is never implemented across societies for many leaders will then find themselves dispensable. and where education penetration is low the matter complicates. Live and Let live is an ideal out look unfortunately ignored and it is always live for today at any cost

[Shantharam Kalipatnapu]

Namaste to all,

I would like to state some. In Devi Bhagavata Mahatmyam, it is said that

विष्णोरंशो मुनिर्जात: सत्यवत्यां पराशरात् । विभज्य वेदांश्चतुर: शिष्यानध्यापयत्युरा ॥१४॥
व्रात्यानां द्विजबन्धूनां वेदेष्वनधीकारिणाम् । स्त्रीणां दुर्मेधसा नॄणां धर्मज्ञानं कथं भवेत् ॥१५॥
विचार्यैतत् तु मनसा भगवान् बादरायण: । पुराणसंहितां दध्यौ तेषां धर्मविधित्सया ॥१६॥

The 25th slokam should imply that Women do not have right to Vedas and Nitya Karmas.

Also HH Kanchi Paramacharya Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati mahaswami has clearly stated that

Men marry after their Upanayana and student-bachelorhood. Now for women marriage itself is Upanayana. Just as a boy dedicates himself to his guru, a girl must dedicate herself to her husband from her childhood until the start of their conjugal life and beyond. The Manusmriti says: "Strinam upanayanam-sthane vivaham Manurabravit" (Manu says that for women marriage is in place of upanayana). If you ask for an external sign of this like sacred thread worn by the men, we may at once point to the married woman's mangalasutra.

I said that "Upanayana" means "taking near", taking a boy near his guru for his brahmacaryasrama. A woman's guru is her husband. Being joined to him in wedlock is her upanayana."

You may read more about it at http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part18/chap2.htm.

ThankYou

On Tuesday, 28 March 2017 10:54:29 UTC+5:30, Nagaraj Paturi wrote:

A new thread is being started to avoid digression from the thread सन्ध्यावन्दनम् where the jijnāsā of the thread initiator is being attended to.:

G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 9:25 PM wrote:

Respected scholars,

Valmiki says: सन्ध्याकालमनाः श्यामा ध्रुवमेश्ः(Sh)यति जानकी । नदीं चेमां शूभजलां सन्ध्यार्थे वरवर्णीनी ॥ सु-१४-४९॥ गोरखपुर्.

This verse is interpreted to mean that Sita would visit the river in the evening for sandhyavandanam. One could construe that women during times Valmiki lived or wrote about, women did sandhyavandanam.

Regards,

Murthy 

sunil bhattacharjya<skbhatt...@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 11:07 PM wrote:

That a girl can undergo the upanayanam is given in the Harita Smriti. Probably they wore it like a necklace. As I understand, the girl will have her father as the guru. I am open to correction.

Regards,

skb  

[Nagaraj Paturi]

One worldview is:

"I love/like/respect you along with what you are, how you are and what you do as long as it is ethical" 

Consequence of that is,

"I love to be what I am, how I am and what I do, I celebrate what I am, how I am and what I do since you love/like/respect me along with what I am , how I am and what I do as long as it is ethical"

This is the worldview that has been vital and central to Indian culture. This is the secret of its characteristic pluralism and diversity.

Another worldview is :

"You do what I do. You be what I am and how I am. Only then are you lovable"

Consequence is:

"You must allow me to be what you are, how you are and allow me to do what you do since that is the way you love me or respect me."

This is the worldview of all cultures and traditions believing in converting the other person into what the converter is. Modernity has imbibed this worldview. That is the reason modernity is leading to these illusions of 'discrimination'. It is uniformity-imposing, diversity-destroying and anti-pluralistic. 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is the worldview of all cultures and traditions believing in converting the other person into what the converter is. Modernity has imbibed this worldview. That is the reason modernity is leading to these illusions of 'discrimination'. It is uniformity-imposing, diversity-destroying and anti-pluralistic. 

​Cant the same sentence be used against blind discriminatory practices of the past which penetrated the masses without any sanction of Vedas or Dhrama Shastas except when dharmasatras are twisted to give the meaning one wants to see​

[Nagaraj Paturi]

You probably mean those small section of Indians who resorted to discriminatory practices violated the Indian worldview

""I love/like/respect you along with what you are, how you are and what you do as long as it is ethical" 

and followed the worldview

"You do what I do. You be what I am and how I am. Only then are you lovable"

I agree. 

They are  worse. 

Because , at least the converting religious traditions and modernity, convert in order to love. 

But these hegemonic personality ridden traditionals who were aberrations, who  violated the pluralist diversity oriented Indian worldview did not even allow conversion. 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

You probably mean those small section of Indians who resorted to discriminatory practices violated the Indian worldview

​A small section forced a large section to follow discriminatory practices not found in Vedas Agamas or were not the intent of Dharma Sastras.​ Prevented the spread of education to all in the context of this thread, debarred women, disallowed them to utter Vedas, disallowed them to study Sanskrit, disallowed them to perform ritual  meant for men and talked all the time about Dharma. When awareness was felt and freedom was given such minority who followed discriminatory practices are diminishing by the day. The real sistas and correct interpreters do survive is always a ray of hope and worth celebrating on this festive day.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

By 'small section', I mean a small section of those who through sweeping generalizations are described as the 'discriminating' class. 

Fortunately, their influence did not reach the large section of those who through, again sweeping generalizations are believed to be and/or are projected to be discriminated. 

Influence of modernity on us so much that in understanding words such as 'education' too we have a monolithic, uniformity-based view of education.

Only if I am allowed to acquire your 'education', I will consider you to have allowed me to get 'educated' is the feeling resulting from this uniformity-centric , anti-pluralistic, anti-diversity worldview. 

Equivalents of Vedic hymn recital such as folk song singing, equivalent of purely theoretical courses such as Nyaya, VyakaraNa such as Philosophy (including courses on modern logic), Modern linguistics are being offered in universities. Seats-applicants ratio for these courses is extremely compared to the same for high salary giving courses such as engineering and medicine and many seats in those courses are left unfilled. Still, that 'education' is described as being 'denied' in the ancient times. 

Since we are talking of pre-modern period and women, unless we have documentation of women seeking those things which are described as 'denied' to them in that period, we can not justifiably use the word 'denied'. 

But , in any case, that there were persons who, due to their personality disorders, took the shelter of their own whimsical interpretations of S'aastras to justify their insane behaviors were responsible for the bad image about s'aastras is true.   

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Correction:

Seats-applicants ratio for these courses is extremely low compared to the same for high salary giving courses such as engineering and medicine

not

Seats-applicants ratio for these courses is extremely compared to the same for high salary giving courses such as engineering and medicine

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Since we are talking of pre-modern period and women, unless we have documentation of women seeking those things which are described as 'denied' to them in that period, we can not justifiably use the word 'denied'.

I cannot understand what do you consider as proof. There is

​ ​

e

​enough proof. I need not parade it here. From child marriage to, sati to widow burning denial of education property, rightful place in family and society all related to the mentality of discrimination and denial of education and suppression of freedom.

You say one who raises voice  and asks for reforms are making sweeping generalizations you may please have those views its perfect with me.

​"Influence of modernity on us so much that in understanding words such as 'education' too we have a monolithic, uniformity-based view of education."

Are you suggesting to that we should live like people as they lived in the middle ages or ancient past I cannot understand what is being suggested here.

I am glad that a least you said these few sentences. I am in total agreement here.

​"But , in any case, that there were persons who, due to their personality disorders, took the shelter of their own whimsical interpretations of S'aastras to justify their insane behaviors were responsible for the bad image about s'aastras is true.

​Equivalents of Vedic hymn recital such as folk song singing, equivalent of purely theoretical courses such as Nyaya, VyakaraNa such as Philosophy (including courses on modern logic), Modern linguistics are being offered in universities. Seats-applicants ratio for these courses is extremely compared to the same for high salary giving courses such as engineering and medicine and many seats in those courses are left unfilled. Still, that 'education' is described as being 'denied' in the ancient times. "

Seats-applicants ratio for these courses is extremely low compared to the same for high salary giving courses such as engineering and medicine
​

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 12:05 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sati to widow burning?

You mean Sati i.e., widow burning? 

Was there Sati among non-Kshatriyas? What is the percentage of Kshatriyas in the entire Indian population?

Within this minuscule percentage, were there no widows that were not burnt?

What percentage of the entire Indian widows underwent Sati ? 

Education?

I said:

​"Influence of modernity on us so much that in understanding words such as 'education' too we have a monolithic, uniformity-based view of education."

You respond saying:

Are you suggesting to that we should live like people as they lived in the middle ages or ancient past I cannot understand what is being suggested here.

Is there any connection between my sentence and your response?

Let me elaborate for your convenience:

When somebody is calling an agriculturist, a carpenter, a fisherman etc. who did not receive modern education as 'uneducated', it means that that somebody is not able to recognize that the knowledge of agriculture, carpentry, fishing etc. of these as 'education'. 

Even among the contemporary professionals, an auto-mechanic who did not receive modern schooling is considered as 'uneducated'. His knowledge of auto-mechanism is not considered as 'education'. Examples can go on and on from among such contemporary professionals. 

This description as 'uneducated' is resulting from understanding only modern schooling as 'education'

Similarly those who did not receive traditional Sanskrit education are being described as beinng described as those who were 'denied' 'education'.

  

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

 I was talking about Sanskrit learning and education being denied to women. I am not engaging in any debate on modern education.

Sati was and and taboos affecting widowhood was practices throughout India and even now to large extent. That needs another thread.

I did not call agriculturist, a carpenter, a fisherman etc. as uneducated. They don't have the expertise to understated Dharma Shastra and veda as such knowledge is always denied to them. Sanskrit and Shastric denied by force and birth not by choice.

Sanskrit and sastras were denied to women from middle ages till awareness grew and we have many good women Sanskrit Scholars

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Nagaraj Paturi]

I have been denied the name of Ajit Gargeshwari.

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[Bijoy Misra]

While preparing for a talk on "Science and Technology in the Vedic Period"

I encountered the word सन्ध्या as a cosmological phenomenon. 

There are various efforts to delineate the transition between states and

map it into feelings, words and icons.  The value judgement between

the states would appear like a religious imposition by the later thinkers.

My slides for the talk are now available and I can share.  Please write
to me privately if you would be interested. 
I will try to write it up as a paper later. 

Best regards,

BM

[Jsr Prasad]

Thanks for very useful information Sriram garu!

Regards,

Prasad

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:03 AM, Venkata Sriram <srira...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Thank you Venkata Sriramji. This answered my questions about performing of Nitya Karma including Sandhyavandana during ​ashaucha.

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:03 AM, Venkata Sriram <srira...@gmail.com> wrote:

Pls refer to the topic "अशौचे सन्ध्योपासनं" of अशौच काण्ड from स्मृतिमुक्ताफलम्

http://vaidyanatha.ambaa.org/SMP3_aashaucha.pdf

The sandhyavandana, which is a nityakarma, should never be quit.  During

​​

ashaucha, one should perform the karma till till arghya-pradAna and the rest should be done mAnasika. 

--

[विश्वासो वासुकेयः]

sunil bhattacharjya<skbhatt...@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 11:07 PM wrote:

That a girl can undergo the upanayanam is given in the Harita Smriti. Probably they wore it like a necklace. As I understand, the girl will have her father as the guru. I am open to correction.

Regards,

skb  

एवं ह्यनुवदति काणे-पाण्डुरङ्गः  https://archive.org/stream/HistoryOfDharmasastraVol.IIPartIPandurangVamanKane/History%20Of%20Dharmasastra%20-%20Vol.%20II%20Part%20I%20-%20Pandurang%20Vaman%20Kane#page/n345/mode/2up

 

[V Subrahmanian]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

vs 

[Ramaratnam S.]

In Bana's Kadambari there is a reference. Mahashveta was not only wearing a sacred thread but also was performing the sandhya. There it is not stated that she was wearing it like a necklace. In the Shakta tradition women are entitled to the chanting of the Gayatri mantra, the offering of the arghya to the devatas and the upasakas, the aacamana and the like. During the Sarasvati puja, the goddess is offered the upavita with the mantra,

शब्दब्रह्मात्मिके देवि शब्दशास्त्रकृतालये  /
ब्रह्मसूत्रं गृहाण त्वं ब्रह्मशक्रादिवन्दिते //
Unless there was a tradition of women wearing the sacred thread, the offering of it to the Goddess in the puja would not have come into practice.  Many privileges the women enjoyed were lost after the frequent foreign invasions from the 10th century.

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 7:57 PM, Ramaratnam S. <drsram...@gmail.com> wrote:

In Bana's Kadambari there is a reference. Mahashveta was not only wearing a sacred thread but also was performing the sandhya. There it is not stated that she was wearing it like a necklace. In the Shakta tradition women are entitled to the chanting of the Gayatri mantra, the offering of the arghya to the devatas and the upasakas, the aacamana and the like. During the Sarasvati puja, the goddess is offered the upavita with the mantra,

शब्दब्रह्मात्मिके देवि शब्दशास्त्रकृतालये  /
ब्रह्मसूत्रं गृहाण त्वं ब्रह्मशक्रादिवन्दिते //

​Also, you find plenty of iconographic depictions ​of goddesses with yajJNopavIta-s.

 

Unless there was a tradition of women wearing the sacred thread, the offering of it to the Goddess in the puja would not have come into practice.

​This particular logic ​does not seem sound to me. What applies to the deva-s doesn't necessarily apply to us.

 

  Many privileges the women enjoyed were lost after the frequent foreign invasions from the 10th century.

On 12 December 2017 at 07:37, V Subrahmanian <v.subra...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 2:46 AM, विश्वासो वासुकेयः <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

sunil bhattacharjya<skbhatt...@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 11:07 PM wrote:

That a girl can undergo the upanayanam is given in the Harita Smriti. Probably they wore it like a necklace. As I understand, the girl will have her father as the guru. I am open to correction.

Regards,

skb  

एवं ह्यनुवदति काणे-पाण्डुरङ्गः  https://archive.org/stream/HistoryOfDharmasastraVol.IIPartIPandurangVamanKane/History%20Of%20Dharmasastra%20-%20Vol.%20II%20Part%20I%20-%20Pandurang%20Vaman%20Kane#page/n345/mode/2up

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

vs 

 

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Vishvas /विश्वासः

[Siddharth Wakankar]

Sirs,

In modern times,there is a tradition among the followers of the Arya Samaj to have Upanayana of the girls or daughters.They are known to be adhering to Vedas,hence,they must have Vedic sanction for this thread.ceremony of the ladies.We may pursue this further.

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar.

[Rishi Goswami]

Namo Vidvadbhyah.
I read the whole thread and saw how things took a complete Uturn.
I would like to clarify that we find reference to Sandhyavandanam in Aashauch in granthas like nirnay sindhu and dharmasindhu. Not only in Aashauch, but also in Grahan.
A Brahmachari, only has to bathe for Shuddhikaran, he can perform Sandhya afterwords. A grihastha will have to wait for 10days minimum and 40days maximum to resume his
Sandhyavandanam. He can perform Manasi Sandhya though. Further clarification was given by a schollar above.

Sandhyavandanam in rivers is the best type of Sandhya. It is considered Sarvottam and Sandhya near Shayya is considered Adham.

Women were indeed allowed for Gayatrijapam probably in Satyayug and pratham charan of Tretayug. Then came the incident of Vrittrasura Hananam. Indra killed him and was doshi for BrahmaHatya. That sin was then passed on to trees(in form of sap), sea(phen), bhoomi(that whitish substance that comes out) and women(rajodharm). From that time women were prohibited from Vedadhikaar as they have to suffer the BrahmaHatya Dosh of Indra.

Sandhya is never to be stopped, not even in Yatra. There is a provision for 3 Sandhyas to be performed together. "Ekatantrena trikala-sandhyaam aham karishye". Provided 1 extra arghya should be added to each sandhya the next in form of prayashchitta.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Original thread:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/bvparishat/Women$20and$20%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A7%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%8D%7Csort:date/bvparishat/0n41vcuW9E0/BFx7VMW3BAAJ

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

[Chandrasekar B]

Arya Samaj is not as per Shastras. They created their own rules. Even the vedic prounounciation tone of Arya Samajists is not as per the original vedic prounounciation and tone. 

Hence once cannot go by Arya Samajists.   

Regards,

Chandrasekar

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Can ​Chandrasekarji

​answer why Arya Samaj is not as per shastra. Arya samaj have always argued their view is as per the Shastras. Shastras codify usage and practices of sistas of a given time. If sacred thread were worn by women and their use is now discontinued one has to trace when the scared thread were worn by women and when their usage discontinued. If shastras as interpreted by ancient  an modern commentators do have specific comments on the usage of sacred thread by women those texts should be pointed out. Prof. Wakankar pointed out that Arya Samaja followers do have the practice of women wearing the sacred thread. Since Arya Samaj primary motto is 'Back to the Vedas' one has to pursue the matter further.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 12:39 PM,

[Siddharth Wakankar]

Scholar Friends,

It may be noted that it was the Arya Samaj which tried its best to keep the Light of the Vedas and the Paninian System of Vyakarana (following the Ashtaadhyaayee and not the Kaumudi style) intact against odds.The followers of Kaumudi system may not accept Arya Samaj view-point,but you cannot summarily reject it,without giving valid reasons

.

I am not a follower of the Arya Samaj,but,you cannot deny a thing because it annoys you. You may disagree,that is all.

I think,this is the point of Dr.Ajitbhai.I thank him for his objective outlook.

S.Y.Wakankar.

Best Regards,

Prof. Dr Siddharth Y. Wakankar

I-5, Vrindavan Estates, Pashabhai Park, Race Course Circle (South), 

Vadodara - 390007. Gujarat, India.

Mobile: +91 9427339942

Email ID: sywak...@gmail.com

[Ramaratnam S.]

Let us not go into controversy. Let us discuss only this particular point - where is Sandhya and upanayana sanctioned for women in ancient texts? when was it prohibited and why?

[Siddharth Wakankar]

Yes sir,you are absolutely right.There is no use of hair splitting,which carries us away from the actual point.

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Learned members,

It was enlightening to see your arguments.

Here below I give my 2 cents:

Shri Korada ji said that nowhere has it been mentioned that Sandhyavandanam is to be done in a river.

There are 2 sides that I would like to present in this regard giving 2 different persepectives.

Rationally speaking: River / lake water was used in olden days in lieu of taps. Water as we all know is essential in performance of nityakarmas. What better place than a river in olden times?

Scripture wise: The Narayana upanishad in the section on gayatri avahana mentions "prithvi yonih.." where in it can be construed that the essential nature of Gayatri is intimately connected with mother earth and rivers being the nadis of mother earth sandhya worship was done in rivers. 

In this regard a siddhapurusha I knew opined that Gayatri japa is always meant to be done in a river/ ocean to counteract the overworking of the suryanadi thereby balancing the heat generated from prolonged japa. This person also had some radical notions about the Gayatri for this age being a new mantra while the Rshi Gayatri was a different mantra altogether. (This last point however makes no sense to me since the Savitri in its current form has been widely mentioned in both Smritis, Shrutis and Upanishads not to mention texts of astra vidya).

Regarding women not being given right to nityakarmas the following is my humble opinion:

 Feminism and forced equality is a modern western construct that trashes any paradigm that does not agree with its tenets to the letter. Trying to analyse the motives of the Rshis with such a blinkered approach would be to ignore the bigger picture. 

Manu clearly states that women remain under the protection of their fathers, husbands and sons at different stages of life. Women were considered as shakti and automatically received 50% of the punyakarma of their protectors(father-husband-son). When this be the case where is the question of double standards?

Added to this Vedic Rshikas like vAgambhrini, Lopamudra, Gargi et al are testimony to the fact that women had the independence and right to knowledge. How did a Gargi or  a Lopamudra or a Devahuti find mention if not for their thirst and acquisition of knowledge? 

Even today in a cerebral game like chess the of the top 100 grandmasters 98 are men and only 2 are women. Is this because of sexism? Or lack of equal opportunity?

Not so. Women have different biological and psychological priorities compared to men and trying to forcefit artificial equality on them in the name of feminism/ social justice is no less cruel than a couple of pushy parents trying to get an artistically inclined son to excel at math. 

Coming back to point, women in the time of Ramayana were worshippers of fire. They had to prepare the altar and the offerings while the man offered the ahutis and both partook of the results.

Else why would Sita call upon Agnideva of all Gods to witness her purity? 

विशुद्धभावां निष्पापां प्रतिगृह्णीष्व मैथिलीम् |

न किंचिरभिधातव्या अहमाज्ञापयामि ते 

Agni to Sri Rama: "Take back Mythili, who is sinless, with a pure character. She should not be told anything harsh. I hereby command you." (Valmiki Ramayana - Yuddha Kanda)

Since Sri Rama was Himself an agnihotri He could not disobey Agni deva. This is why He could not tell Sita about Her abandonment directly later in Uttara khanda and had to act through Lakshmana. 

The point is irrespective of who did what the vedic marriage is a beautiful picture of cooperation where each partner does what they do best and the result is not only synergistic but productive of immense merit to all concerned.

I have nothing to say about the modern rationalist movement which tries to force women into places they have never been before. If these rationalists really dont have implicit trust in the Rshis or their words why even bother? Only they can answer!

On Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 10:54:29 AM UTC+5:30, Nagaraj Paturi wrote:

A new thread is being started to avoid digression from the thread सन्ध्यावन्दनम् where the jijnāsā of the thread initiator is being attended to.:

G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 9:25 PM wrote:

Respected scholars,

Valmiki says: सन्ध्याकालमनाः श्यामा ध्रुवमेश्ः(Sh)यति जानकी । नदीं चेमां शूभजलां सन्ध्यार्थे वरवर्णीनी ॥ सु-१४-४९॥ गोरखपुर्.

This verse is interpreted to mean that Sita would visit the river in the evening for sandhyavandanam. One could construe that women during times Valmiki lived or wrote about, women did sandhyavandanam.

Regards,

Murthy 

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 1:18 AM, venkat veeraraghavan <vvenk...@gmail.com> wrote:

Regarding women not being given right to nityakarmas the following is my humble opinion:

 Feminism and forced equality is a modern western construct that trashes any paradigm that does not agree with its tenets to the letter. Trying to analyse the motives of the Rshis with such a blinkered approach would be to ignore the bigger picture. 

​Agree - however, I don't see such argument being made in recent replies (haven't dug up old responses).

 

Manu clearly states that women remain under the protection of their fathers, husbands and sons at different stages of life. Women were considered as shakti and automatically received 50% of the punyakarma of their protectors(father-husband-son). When this be the case where is the question of double standards?

That does not contradict claims to upanayana etc.. Yet, if manu is your ultimate authority and not hArita - it may be that way. If you honor hArita ​and manu equally - there is a clear provision for some women to undergo upanayana, as cited earlier.

 

Added to this Vedic Rshikas like vAgambhrini, Lopamudra, Gargi et al are testimony to the fact that women had the independence and right to knowledge. How did a Gargi or  a Lopamudra or a Devahuti find mention if not for their thirst and acquisition of knowledge? 

Even today in a cerebral game like chess the of the top 100 grandmasters 98 are men and only 2 are women. Is this because of sexism? Or lack of equal opportunity?

Not so.

​Good! Now the fact is that there ARE 2 women.​ shAstra must cater to such cases.

​The following citations may be of interest:

1. Hotii Vidyalankara : Born to 'kulin' brahmin family she was a widow from childhood . She became an authority on vyAkaraNa, poetry , smRti , Navya-nyAya and established her own 'chatuspathi' ( centers of higher learning ) at Varanasi ! Panditas bestowed her with the title of Vidyalankara . She died at an advanced age in the year 1810 . [IMG]
2. Hotu Vidyalankar/ nee Rupamanjari: She was not a brahmin , but her father , Narayan Das noticed her exceptional intellgence and sent her at the 'chatushpaathi' of a brahmin pandit . There Rupamanjari mastered Ayurveda , vyAkaraNa and other branches of studies . Her fame spread far and wide and students used to come from far off places to learn or get opinions on Ayurveda , charaka-samhita and vyAkaraNa . Ayurvedic doctors of the age used to consult her on matters of medicine ! Rupamanjari never married and kept her head shaven with a 'shikha' ( Chuda / tuft of hair ) and dressed as a man . She died 100 years of age at 1875 . [IMG]

​

 

Women have different biological and psychological priorities compared to men and trying to forcefit artificial equality on them in the name of feminism/ social justice is no less cruel than a couple of pushy parents trying to get an artistically inclined son to excel at math. 

Coming back to point, women in the time of Ramayana were worshippers of fire. They had to prepare the altar and the offerings while the man offered the ahutis and both partook of the results.

Else why would Sita call upon Agnideva of all Gods to witness her purity? 

विशुद्धभावां निष्पापां प्रतिगृह्णीष्व मैथिलीम् |

न किंचिरभिधातव्या अहमाज्ञापयामि ते 

Agni to Sri Rama: "Take back Mythili, who is sinless, with a pure character. She should not be told anything harsh. I hereby command you." (Valmiki Ramayana - Yuddha Kanda)

Since Sri Rama was Himself an agnihotri He could not disobey Agni deva. This is why He could not tell Sita about Her abandonment directly later in Uttara khanda and had to act through Lakshmana. 

The point is irrespective of who did what the vedic marriage is a beautiful picture of cooperation where each partner does what they do best and the result is not only synergistic but productive of immense merit to all concerned.

I have nothing to say about the modern rationalist movement which tries to force women into places they have never been before. If these rationalists really dont have implicit trust in the Rshis or their words why even bother? Only they can answer!

On Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 10:54:29 AM UTC+5:30, Nagaraj Paturi wrote:

A new thread is being started to avoid digression from the thread सन्ध्यावन्दनम् where the jijnāsā of the thread initiator is being attended to.:

G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 9:25 PM wrote:

Respected scholars,

Valmiki says: सन्ध्याकालमनाः श्यामा ध्रुवमेश्ः(Sh)यति जानकी । नदीं चेमां शूभजलां सन्ध्यार्थे वरवर्णीनी ॥ सु-१४-४९॥ गोरखपुर्.

This verse is interpreted to mean that Sita would visit the river in the evening for sandhyavandanam. One could construe that women during times Valmiki lived or wrote about, women did sandhyavandanam.

Regards,

Murthy 

sunil bhattacharjya<skbhatt...@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 11:07 PM wrote:

That a girl can undergo the upanayanam is given in the Harita Smriti. Probably they wore it like a necklace. As I understand, the girl will have her father as the guru. I am open to correction.

Regards,

skb  

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Shri Vishvas ji:

I was merely suggesting Manu smriti as a "worst-case" scenario. I was not posting any contrapoint to hArita.

I have no axe to grind whether women performed Nityakarma or not. 

I am merely exploring possibilities here.

The citations you have given only show that both ladies learnt vedAngas (do correct me if wrong) and not much information is given on whether they learnt the vedAh which would be implicit if they were performing nityakarmas.

However the puranas do attest to the fact that women had access to learning from the way sItA and pAnchAli debate with their husbands on the basis on shastra. This would not be possible without deep learning.

 

[Chandrasekar B]

According to Shastras the Vedas is Shabda Pramana ie., Sound of vedas itself need to be preserved and made sure that correct tone and prounounciation is maintained. But as far as I know, Arya Samajists prounounce Vedas not in proper tone or pronounciation as given to us by the rishis. But in a different style unique to Arya samaj.    This is just an example.  Likewise, there are other differences for instance the Shastras says Gayathri mantra needs to be recited only by Dvijas ie., one who has undergone Upanayana samskar but I see Gayathri mantra made as a regular mantra for all in Arya Samaj. 

Regards,

Chandrasekar

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:24 AM, venkat veeraraghavan <vvenk...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Shri Vishvas ji:

I was merely suggesting Manu smriti as a "worst-case" scenario. I was not posting any contrapoint to hArita.

I have no axe to grind whether women performed Nityakarma or not. 

I am merely exploring possibilities here.

The citations you have given only show that both ladies learnt vedAngas (do correct me if wrong) and not much information is given on whether they learnt the vedAh which would be implicit if they were performing nityakarmas.

​Sir, You have not read the citations I sent earlier from the kANe book (not the most recent ones) carefully - for they clearly say: "तत्र ब्रह्मवादिनीनाम् उपनयनम्, अग्नीन्धनम् वेदाध्ययनं स्वगृहे च भिक्षाचर्येति।"

​​

​And you seem to have missed quotations from patanjali​ presented by another member.

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 2:48 AM, Chandrasekar B <bbcs...@gmail.com> wrote:

According to Shastras the Vedas is Shabda Pramana ie., Sound of vedas itself need to be preserved and made sure that correct tone and prounounciation is maintained.

 

But as far as I know, Arya Samajists prounounce Vedas not in proper tone or pronounciation as given to us by the rishis.

(Just out of curiosity) ​Could some mAdhyandina+adhyAyI point out and elaborate on this alleged deviance?​ In the first place the followers of the mAdhyAndina shAkhA freely admit that they only preserve "hasta-svara" and not "vAchya-svara".

 

But in a different style unique to Arya samaj.    This is just an example.  Likewise, there are other differences for instance the Shastras says Gayathri mantra needs to be recited only by Dvijas ie., one who has undergone Upanayana samskar but I see Gayathri mantra made as a regular mantra for all in Arya Samaj. 

Regards,

Chandrasekar

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can ​Chandrasekarji

​answer why Arya Samaj is not as per shastra. Arya samaj have always argued their view is as per the Shastras. Shastras codify usage and practices of sistas of a given time. If sacred thread were worn by women and their use is now discontinued one has to trace when the scared thread were worn by women and when their usage discontinued. If shastras as interpreted by ancient  an modern commentators do have specific comments on the usage of sacred thread by women those texts should be pointed out. Prof. Wakankar pointed out that Arya Samaja followers do have the practice of women wearing the sacred thread. Since Arya Samaj primary motto is 'Back to the Vedas' one has to pursue the matter further.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 12:39 PM,

​​

Chandrasekar B <bbcs...@gmail.com> wrote:

Arya Samaj is not as per Shastras. They created their own rules. Even the vedic prounounciation tone of Arya Samajists is not as per the original vedic prounounciation and tone. 

Hence once cannot go by Arya Samajists.   

Regards,

Chandrasekar

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Thanks for  the clarifications.

[G S S Murthy]

It is a pity that only men seem to be discussing Rights of women.

Regards

Murthy

Thanks for  the clarifications.

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[Dr.BVK Sastry(G-MAIL)]

Namaste

 

On < I was merely suggesting Manu smriti as a "worst-case" scenario. I was not posting any contrapoint to hArita.   I have no axe to grind whether women performed Nityakarma or not. I am merely exploring possibilities here. >  and < Good! Now the fact is that there ARE 2 women.​ shAstra must cater to such cases.>  and  < Is this because of sexism? Or lack of equal opportunity ? >

 

1.     Let us step back for a moment and ask the question.  The logic is ‘ IF men becomes Rushi’s, THEN they have a right to expect ‘ Rushi-ka’s to be their Life –partners !  Are men so keen to become Rushi’s  for which upanayana samskara is the entry door ? :   

 

         Why was a Dharmashaastra kara making special detailing  on the issue of ‘ Women- Upanayana – Brahma vadini’s different from household- Women Bhikshaa only in ‘svagruha’ and not outside ?  (This would make the statement ‘ bhavati bhikshaam ( me) dehi to be reopened with a feminine gender perspective ?!)  unless the issue was relevant for the ‘society observed by Dharma Shaastra Kaara was concerned with this ?

 

         So what is the ‘ Dharma-Vyaadhi / baadhaa – peedaa ’ – (the Dharma linked stress and suffering)   and ‘ Dharma –Dukha’ in this debated issue ?  What solutions are  sought from ‘Dharma –Shaastra’ historicity as ‘ (a –gada) – (nigada) -aushadha  or a palliative opium ?

 

         Unless there is an  ‘ identified disease’,  and there is a  willing  patient seeking  a remedy -relief from  ‘ vyaadhi’,   there is no need for  a  medical professional,  pharma industry,  medical school  and medicine supply distribution chain in  a Health economy !     Unless there is an  ‘ identified DHARMA -disease’,  and there is a  willing  patient seeking  a remedy -relief from  ‘ Dharma vyaadhi’,   there is no need for  a Dharma-  professional, Religion- industry, Veda-Patha shaala  school  and  parihara - supply distribution chain in  a  Mandir centric economy ! 

 

 

2.      The issue of   SmrutiKara’s opinion, right from Manu to several others, on   ‘ Girl Child/Women/ upanayanam’ linked to  daunting display of yajnopaveetam ( over the dress – hanging like a necklace or cross over the shoulder of a lady), chanting of ‘speciifc vedamnatras for gruhyaagni karya and chanting in marriage -  and well a connected set of issues are debated endlessly in the context of ‘ Equality rights’. Good.

 

         What is needed to take the discussion with relevance further is the input  on :  How to make these concerned scholars to come out of their  ‘ history –text blinkers and scripted evidence of social practices, to see    ‘How they did in the past’ and  ‘ How we are doing in the last two centuries?

 

       The audience (Genre-1)  ask the question:  What should we be doing in this period, here, now ?

       The scholars (Genre -2)  question is : What is the road map to prepare a <  vAgambhrini, Lopamudra, Gargi sItA , pAnchAli / Pancha kanyA> of the coming decades who would desire a <  Rushi, Agastya, Yajnavalkya, Sri Rama – Dharmaraja> as life partners ? 

 

3.    These are issues that need to work on plans to ‘Educate the Families for compliance with Dharma Shaastra’ which needs to be built on the ‘ Updated Dharma Shaastra for desha –kaala –samaaja –vyavahara’ contexts.  What is needed is capturing the essence of ‘Dharmashaastra as a Smruti for  providing guidance to yoga-Samskaras’ for ‘ Yogyataa –adhikaara Siddhi,  Kartavyataa, Praayaschitta, Upaasanaa,  Saadhanaa, Aaraadhanaa’.  And Re-articulating what is told in ‘Samskrutham’ in the languages of the current society. ( One need not change the veda mantra; but one needs to add explanation to the ‘Samskaara’ and Education to the audience and the ‘ Samskaara –administrator= Purohita. )

 

4.     This line of exploration goes to seek two genre of people in the ‘concerned society’:  

 

          Genre -1 : Those who have the competence ( adhikaara – yogyataa –saamarthya) to be the spokes person on Dharma-Shaastra?  A knowledge of cover to cover letter detail on ‘History of Dharma Shaastra’ or ‘ Texts like Manus smirit’ are essential, but not sufficient!

 

          Genre-2: If such guidance be available, as tweaked from the old texts or create a new medley from old texts, the people who are willing to abide by it, and find a benefit . In absence of these two genre of people in the society as beneficiaries to sustain the practice, rest of the debate is a ‘ post mortem of a past game looking at the replay, using fast forward , rewind, slow motion, frame capturing techniques of video tools’.  No doubt it adds to scholarship and creates ‘Sat-Sang/ Song and good entertainment with sad-vichara’  but also leads to endless ‘ Vishaada - Vikopa’ looking at the vikruti’s.

 

5.   The Shaastra-kaaras job  and ‘Shaastra –  Samskaara -Vichaara Charchaa’  is not end up in making the ‘diagnostics and report’ leaving the job half done. A surgeon cannot rip open the heart to identify the block in the blood flow to identify the defective valve; and then say it is for someone else to clean it and  replace the valve and close it. A surgeon needs to work with the whole team and finish the job to restore the ‘ health of the patient. Otherwise, the ‘surgeon should limit the enterprise to class room and not go on to the ‘ operations table’.   

 

6. Coming back to the ‘ Women- Upanayana- Yajnopavita’, the answers are all available through the right understanding of the ‘ Upanayana Samkalpa’ for both male and female, and extendable to all Varnas and A-varnas !   This has been available in Smruti –texts and repeated at the beginning of ‘ Upanayana Samskaara’.

 

       Whether the father is undertaking or Guru is undertaking the responsibility for ‘ upanayana’,  the  guide lines provided for  ‘ brahmacharya/ Brahmachaarinee  vratas’. The  choice of continuing the ‘upanayanottara veda –vratas’ pursuit by ‘ women-upaneetaa’  as  ‘snaataka vratas /  brahmavaadinee options’  depends on several social issues, age of the girl, the institutional guidelines etc;. When the later smritikaara says ‘women –upaneetaa’  is restricted to seek bhikshaa in ‘sva-gruhe’’, one can see the change in social conditions.  In the current period, even this condition may not be tenable !

 

      A connected issue : Should humans be wearing yajnopaveeta in approaching Gods ? -  Explore the  observations  in PV Kane: Dharma Shaastra / Samskaras – Vol-2 – Page -388:  https://archive.org/stream/historyofdharmas029210mbp#page/n345/mode/2up . Is there likely to be a text and tradition suggesting special  rules for  ‘yajnopavita’ for ‘ Humans’ in general and ‘ Brahmanas when performing the pooja-patha –yajna –samskaras’ ? Does one see a conflict in the shruti and dharmashaastra –abhyasa ? Or is it an ‘ opinion by translation’?

 

Many issues and dimensions to contemplate  in which ‘yoga/ yaugika artha/ paribhashaa’ of Samskruth language plays a critical rule; a dimension which ‘ historical linguistics and ‘Sanskrit studies’ cannot resolve ! This needs  ‘Yoga- Samskrutham: Yoga way of studying Samskrutham’.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of venkat veeraraghavan
Sent: Tuesday, 12 December, 2017 9:55 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: Women and सन्ध्यावन्दनम् (from सन्ध्यावन्दनम् )

 

Dear Shri Vishvas ji:

 

I was merely suggesting Manu smriti as a "worst-case" scenario. I was not posting any contrapoint to hArita.

I have no axe to grind whether women performed Nityakarma or not. 

I am merely exploring possibilities here.

 

The citations you have given only show that both ladies learnt vedAngas (do correct me if wrong) and not much information is given on whether they learnt the vedAh which would be implicit if they were performing nityakarmas.

However the puranas do attest to the fact that women had access to learning from the way sItA and pAnchAli debate with their husbands on the basis on shastra. This would not be possible without deep learning.

 

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 9:03 PM, विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 1:18 AM, venkat veeraraghavan <vvenk...@gmail.com> wrote:

Regarding women not being given right to nityakarmas the following is my humble opinion:

 Feminism and forced equality is a modern western construct that trashes any paradigm that does not agree with its tenets to the letter. Trying to analyse the motives of the Rshis with such a blinkered approach would be to ignore the bigger picture. 

 

​Agree - however, I don't see such argument being made in recent replies (haven't dug up old responses).

 

 

Manu clearly states that women remain under the protection of their fathers, husbands and sons at different stages of life. Women were considered as shakti and automatically received 50% of the punyakarma of their protectors(father-husband-son). When this be the case where is the question of double standards?

 

That does not contradict claims to upanayana etc.. Yet, if manu is your ultimate authority and not hArita - it may be that way. If you honor hArita ​and manu equally - there is a clear provision for some women to undergo upanayana, as cited earlier.

 

 

Added to this Vedic Rshikas like vAgambhrini, Lopamudra, Gargi et al are testimony to the fact that women had the independence and right to knowledge. How did a Gargi or  a Lopamudra or a Devahuti find mention if not for their thirst and acquisition of knowledge? 

Even today in a cerebral game like chess the of the top 100 grandmasters 98 are men and only 2 are women. Is this because of sexism? Or lack of equal opportunity?

Not so.

 

​Good! Now the fact is that there ARE 2 women.​ shAstra must cater to such cases.

 

​The following citations may be of interest:

1.   Hotii Vidyalankara : Born to 'kulin' brahmin family she was a widow from childhood . She became an authority on vyAkaraNa, poetry , smRti , Navya-nyAya and established her own 'chatuspathi' ( centers of higher learning ) at Varanasi ! Panditas bestowed her with the title of Vidyalankara . She died at an advanced age in the year 1810 . [IMG]

2.   Hotu Vidyalankar/ nee Rupamanjari: She was not a brahmin , but her father , Narayan Das noticed her exceptional intellgence and sent her at the 'chatushpaathi' of a brahmin pandit . There Rupamanjari mastered Ayurveda , vyAkaraNa and other branches of studies . Her fame spread far and wide and students used to come from far off places to learn or get opinions on Ayurveda , charaka-samhita and vyAkaraNa . Ayurvedic doctors of the age used to consult her on matters of medicine ! Rupamanjari never married and kept her head shaven with a 'shikha' ( Chuda / tuft of hair ) and dressed as a man . She died 100 years of age at 1875 . [IMG]

​

 

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Dr.BVK Sastry(G-MAIL) <sastr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste

 

       The audience (Genre-1)  ask the question:

​​

What should we be doing in this period, here, now ?

       The scholars (Genre -2)  question is : What is the road map to prepare a <  vAgambhrini, Lopamudra, Gargi sItA , pAnchAli / Pancha kanyA> of the coming decades who would desire a < 

          Genre -1 : Those who have the competence ( adhikaara – yogyataa –saamarthya) to be the spokes person on Dharma-Shaastra?  A knowledge of cover to cover letter detail on ‘History of Dharma Shaastra’ or ‘ Texts like Manus smirit’ are essential, but not sufficient!

​My personal interest in this thread is of the genre-1 kind; albeit​ I would qualify "we"  in "​What should we be doing in this period, here, now ? " to be myself and immediate family. Mere shiShTAchAra (or what's left of it) is quite unsatisfactory without clear arguments from the shAstra-s with definite unwavering focus on its essence and intent. I fancy that since we cannot materialize a bRhaspati or brahmarShi, we should get by with the best we can manage via self-study and wide discussion.

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

>It is a pity that only men seem to be discussing Rights of women.

                                                                         -Sri G S S Murthy-ji

It is the need of the hour to see whether the 'rights' perspective fits in this context or contexts similar to this where the perspective is repeatedly being brought in. 

Rights issue is inherent in the right not to be harmed as part of dharma. Draupadi had a right not to be molested. DushTachatushTaya violated that right of a woman. That violation was replied through punishment. 

In such a sense, 'rights' perspective is not alien to Dharma perspective. 

But with regard to the rituals and details of actions involved, diverse roles of actions, diverse methods of achieving the same goal for different genders , occupation -holders etc., have always been considered as the diversity-centric understanding inherent in Indian culture. 

Right to moksha, right to puNya were considered as more important than right to a certain path followed by a certain gender or social class for puNya or moksha. 

[Hari Parshad Das]

The Śrīmad-bhāgavatam speaks of two ladies attaining to complete Vedic knowledge:

tebhyo dadhāra kanye dve vayunāṁ dhāriṇīṁ svadhā

ubhe te brahma-vādinyau jñāna-vijñāna-pārage

Translation: Svadhā, who was offered to the Pitās, begot two daughters named Vayunā and Dhāriṇī, both of whom were brahma-vādinīs and were expert in jñāna and vijñāna. (Bhāgavatam 4.1.64)

In the Bṛhad-devatā (2.82) of Śaunaka Ṛṣi, the names of no less than twenty-six women who have contributed hymns to the Vedas are listed. This means that they have composed, practiced, taught, and initiated others in these hymns, for only the creator of a hymn or those coming in the creator's disciplic succession can initiate others. Many of these hymns can still be found today in the Vedas. The list of women is as follows,

ghoṣā godhā viśvavārā apālopaniṣanniṣat

brahma-jāyā juhūr-nāma agastyasya svasāditiḥ

indrāṇī cendramātā ca saramā romaśorvaśī

lopāmudrā ca nadyaś-ca yamī nārī ca śaśvatī

śrīr-lākṣā sārparājñī vāk-śraddhā medhā ca dakṣiṇā

rātrī sūryā ca sāvitrī brahma-vādinya īritāḥ

Translation: Ghoṣā, Godhā, Viśvavārā, Apālā, Upaniṣat, Niṣat, Brahmajāyā also known as Juhū, Aditi – the sister of Agastya, Indrāṇi, the Mother of Indra, Saramā, Romaśā, Urvaśī, Lopāmudrā, the river Yamī, the river Nārī and the river Śaśvatī, Śrī, Lakṣā, Sārparājñī, Vāk, Śraddhā, Medhā, Dakṣiṇā, Rātrī and Sūryā – also known as Sāvitrī – are famous as knowers of Brahman and are [the contributors of Vedic hymns].

sādhu-caraṇa-rajo'bhilāṣī,

hari parshad das.

-------------------------------------------

Thanks for  the clarifications.

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[Sreekanth Rao]

Just a minor correction to Hari prasad das ji reply,

The hymns are not created or composed it's all an intutional flash. They are all discovered by rishis that is why they are called mantra drastru.

Vedas are apourusheya.

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[raman ramanuja]

Vivaha is upanayana. for women

--

[Hari Parshad Das]

dear Sreekanth Rao ji,

On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 5:03 PM, Sreekanth Rao <sreekanth.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just a minor correction to Hari prasad das ji reply,

The hymns are not created or composed it's all an intutional flash. They are all discovered by rishis that is why they are called mantra drastru.

Vedas are apourusheya.

Sure Vedas are apauruṣeya. Your point is well taken. However, according to convention, the draṣṭā of the mantra gets credited as the composer. Just like the Kāṭhaka branch of the Veda is not created by Kaṭha, but propagated by him. Similarly, Agni Purana is not originally the creation of Agni. However, it is due to convention only that sometimes, these personalities are named as composers of certain literature/mantras.

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[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

Shri Korada ji said that nowhere has it been mentioned that Sandhyavandanam is to be done in a river.

                                                                           -------- Vidvan Venkat Veeraraghavan

We are discussing शास्त्रम् and as such should follow the न्यायs that are relevant  ---

What should one do with regard to an issue that is not विहितम् ?

अविहिते कामचारः - one is free to do as per his will in matters that are not ordained / prescribed by वेद / शास्त्रम् ।

Here is महाभाष्यम् (ऋलृक्) --

अनुकरणं शिष्टाशिष्टाप्रतिषिद्धेषु यथा लौकिकवैदिकेषु ( वार्तिकम्)

भाष्यम् --

अशिष्टाप्रतिषिद्धं - य एवमसौ हिक्कति , य एवमसौ हसति , य एवमसौ कण्डूयति - इति तस्य अनुकरणं कुर्वन् हिक्केच्च हसेच्च कण्डूयेच्च

नैव तद्दोषाय स्यात् नाभ्युदयाय ।

So one may do (कामचारः = as he likes) सन्ध्यावन्दनम् in a river - there will be neither पुण्यम् nor पापम् as it is neither prescribed nor

restricted by शिष्टs .

The fact is that  many ( I too used to do in गोदावरी)  do this - but उपस्थानम् on shore only .

In modern times --

some time ago I was exhibiting to one of my students as to how one can discuss the compatibility between the horoscopes of 

bride and groom with the former's mother , while negotiating blind turnings with a sedan on busy roads of Hyderabad . I finished 

a trip to HSR , Bangluru from Hyderabad within six and half hours (670 km) by car  -- such things  neither fetch  पुण्यम् nor cause पापम् ।

Other issues --

How to decide शिष्टत्वम् today . What is defined in महाभाष्यम् ( पृषोदरादीनि ....6-3-109) cannot be applicable to all at all times .

Under नञ् ( 2-2-6) Patanjali says that every ब्राह्मण is an अब्राह्मण ( by some property or the other) --

किंप्रधानो’यं समासः ?  उत्तरपदार्थप्रधानः । यदि उत्तरपदार्थप्रधानः , अब्राह्मणम् आनयेत्युक्ते ब्राह्मणमात्रस्य आनयनं प्राप्नोति । ( .... ब्राह्मणाब्राहणशब्दयोः

पर्यायता प्रसज्येत -- कैयटः) ।

In शाबरभाष्यम् ( 1-4-30) the author says - आख्यातशब्दानाम् अर्थं ब्रुवतां शक्तिः सहकारिणी 

( the one who has got मानसिकशारीरकार्थिकशक्तिs only should perform the याग ( स्वर्गकामो यजेता) but not everyone.

Similarly , while enumerating आत्मगुणाः , Gautama in his धर्मसूत्रम् mentions अनायासः ( if not difficult then only perform 

धर्मकार्यम् etc.) .

So by and large , simply by not performing some prescribed rites one does not lose the designation of शिष्ट । Of course

the minimum qualifications are mandatory .

Even language - याज्ञे कर्मणि तु नापभाषन्ते स्म ( पस्पशा , महाभाष्यम्) - outside you may speak different language but during

वैदिककर्मs one should speak संस्कृतम्  that conforms to व्याकरणम् ।

--------------------

पत्नी partakes of the पुण्यम् of पति only but not that of father , son etc and this is clearly stated in आपस्तम्ब and quoted in

पूर्वमीमांसा ( शास्त्रदीपिका , 6/1/3/ 10-16) --

धर्मे चार्थे च कामे च नतिचरितव्या पाणिग्रहणात्तु सहत्वं कर्मसु तथा पुण्यफलेषु द्रव्यपरिग्रहेषु च ।

 

---------------

For ladies विवाह itself is considered as उपनयनम् --

वैवाहिको विधिः स्त्रीणां संस्कारो वैदिकः स्मृतः - मनु 2-67

वैदिकः संस्कारः = उपनयनम् ( अष्टवर्षा भवेत् कन्या -- गर्भाष्टमेषु  ब्राह्मणम् उपनयीत )

वैवाहिको विधिः स्त्रीणाम् औपनायनिकः स्मृतः -- निर्णयसिन्धुः - परि 3

Another point is --

कल्पः -- in गृह्यसूत्रम् there should be प्रयोग for उपनयनम् for ladies - it is not there .

There is no restriction in terms of ज्ञानम् - all people , irrespective of वर्ण / लिङ्ग etc , are  eligible .

कल्प्यते समर्थ्यते  वेदमन्त्राणां प्रयोगः अत्र अनेन वा इति कल्पः ।

प्रज्ञा विवेकं लभते भिन्नैरागमदर्शनैः ।

कियद्वा  शक्यमुन्नेतुं स्वतर्कमनुधावता ? -- वाक्यपदीयम् -2

एकं शास्त्रमधीयानो न विद्यात्  शास्त्रनिश्चयम् ।

तस्मात् बहुश्रुतः शास्त्रं विजानीयात् चिकित्सकः ॥  सुश्रुतसंहिता 4-7

धन्यो’स्मि

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit, CALTS,
University of Hyderabad,
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R),040-23133660(O)

Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

Blog: Koradeeyam.blogspot.in 

On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 8:10 AM, Hari Parshad Das <hpd...@gmail.com> wrote:

dear Sreekanth Rao ji,

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Subrahmanyam Korada <kora...@gmail.com> wrote:

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

​​

अविहिते कामचारः

- one is free to do as per his will in matters that are not ordained / prescribed by वेद / शास्त्रम् ।

कुत्रत्यमिदं

​ वाक्यम्?​ (मदभिमतमेव, तथापि मूलं जिज्ञासे)

भाष्यम् --

अशिष्टाप्रतिषिद्धं - य एवमसौ हिक्कति , य एवमसौ हसति , य एवमसौ कण्डूयति - इति तस्य अनुकरणं कुर्वन् हिक्केच्च हसेच्च कण्डूयेच्च

नैव तद्दोषाय स्यात् नाभ्युदयाय ।

So one may do (कामचारः = as he likes) सन्ध्यावन्दनम् in a river - there will be neither पुण्यम् nor पापम् as it is neither prescribed nor

restricted by शिष्टs .

The fact is that  many ( I too used to do in गोदावरी)  do this - but उपस्थानम् on shore only .

Other issues --

How to decide शिष्टत्वम् today . What is defined in महाभाष्यम् ( पृषोदरादीनि ....6-3-109) cannot be applicable to all at all times .

ननु

​ भाष्यकारो वक्ति स्पष्टम् - "एतस्मिन्नार्यावर्ते (निवासे) ये ब्राह्मणाः कुम्भीधान्या अलोलुपा अगृह्यमाणकारणाः किञ्चिदन्तरेण कस्याश्चिद्विद्यायाः पारङ्गतास्तत्रभवन्तः शिष्टाः। शिष्टाः शब्देषु प्रमाणम् …ब्राह्मणेन निष्कारणो धर्मः षड्ङ्गो वेदोऽध्येयो ज्ञेयश्च।"। इदानीं गणनां कुर्वन्तु कति शिष्टा अवशिष्टा इति।​

 

Under नञ् ( 2-2-6) Patanjali says that

​​

every ब्राह्मण is an अब्राह्मण ( by some property or the other) --

किंप्रधानो’यं समासः ?  उत्तरपदार्थप्रधानः । यदि उत्तरपदार्थप्रधानः , अब्राह्मणम् आनयेत्युक्ते ब्राह्मणमात्रस्य आनयनं प्राप्नोति । ( .... ब्राह्मणाब्राहणशब्दयोः

पर्यायता प्रसज्येत -- कैयटः) ।

अनेन

​ किं ​महज् ज्ञायते?? अब्राह्मणशब्दस्य पदप्राधान्यभेदाद् अर्थद्वयं सम्पद्यत इत्येव। नाम अब्राह्मण-ब्राह्मण-शब्दयोर् एव समानार्थकता पक्षे ब्रूते। पदम् भिन्नम् पदार्थो भिन्नः। न कर्हिचित् "​every ब्राह्मण is an अब्राह्मण " इति भाष्यकारो वक्ति!

 

Similarly , while enumerating आत्मगुणाः , Gautama in his धर्मसूत्रम् mentions अनायासः ( if not difficult then only perform 

धर्मकार्यम् etc.) .

रुचिकरमेतत्

​ - मूलम् अन्विष्टम्।

 आनन्दाश्रमप्रतौ_१,८.२३ / Stenzler-प्रतौ_८.२२: अथाष्टाव् आत्मगुणाः ॥

 आनन्दाश्रमप्रतौ_१,८.२४ / Stenzler-प्रतौ_८.२३: दया सर्वभूतेषु क्षान्तिर् अनसूया शौचम् अनायासोमङ्गलम् अकार्पण्यम् अस्पृहेति ॥

 आनन्दाश्रमप्रतौ_१,८.२५ / Stenzler-प्रतौ_८.२४: यस्यैते चत्वारिंशत्संस्कारा न चाष्टाव् आत्मगुणान स ब्रह्मणः सायुज्यं सालोक्यं गच्छति ॥

 आनन्दाश्रमप्रतौ_१,८.२६ / Stenzler-प्रतौ_८.२५: यस्य तु खलु संस्काराणाम् एकदेशो ऽप्य् अष्टाव् आत्मगुणा अथ स ब्रह्मणः सायुज्यं सालोक्यं चगच्छति ॥

 

अनुवादः

​ -

23. (Viz.) compassion on all creatures, forbearance, freedom from anger, purity, quietism, auspiciousness, freedom from avarice, and freedom from covetousness.

24. He who is sanctified by these forty sacraments, but whose soul is destitute of the eight good qualities, will not be united with Brahman, nor does he reach his heaven.

25. But he, forsooth, who is sanctified by a few only of these forty sacraments, and whose soul is endowed with the eight excellent qualities, will be united with Brahman, and will dwell in his heaven.

[23. Haradatta explains mangalya, 'auspiciousness,' to mean always doing what is praised (by good men) and avoiding what is blamed by them! Anâyâsa, 'quietism,' means, according to him, avoiding to undertake that which causes pain to oneself, even though it be a duty!]​

एकदेशशब्दप्रयोगेण मन्ये ​स्पष्टम्

​ - एकं वा संस्कारं कुर्याद् ब्राह्मण इति। ​

न्यूनातिन्यूनं

​ पाकसंस्थाम् अनुतिष्ठेत सायासोऽपि जन इति गम्यते।​ अपि च महाभाष्यकारो वक्ति - "प्रयत्नानर्थक्यं तु भवति। फलवता च नाम प्रयत्नेन भवितव्यम्। न च प्रयत्नः फलाद् व्यतिरेच्यः। … एवं तर्हि नापि ज्ञान एव धर्मो नापि प्रयोग एव।"

अन्तर्जाले

​ यदि लभ्यते हरदत्तटीका, दर्शनीयोऽहम्।​

पत्नी partakes of the पुण्यम् of पति only but not that of father , son etc and this is clearly stated in आपस्तम्ब and quoted in

पूर्वमीमांसा ( शास्त्रदीपिका , 6/1/3/ 10-16) --

धर्मे चार्थे च कामे च नतिचरितव्या पाणिग्रहणात्तु सहत्वं कर्मसु तथा पुण्यफलेषु द्रव्यपरिग्रहेषु च ।

 

---------------

Another point is --

कल्पः -- in गृह्यसूत्रम् there should be प्रयोग for उपनयनम् for ladies - it is not there .

​​बोधप्रदे

​ ऽस्मिल्ँ लेखे एष एक दोषः।

 कल्पेशास्त्रय् अन्तर्भवत्येव हारितधर्मसूत्रम् (यद् ब्रह्मवादिन्युपनयनम् उपलक्षयति), आश्वलायनगृह्यसूत्रञ्च (यद्धि स्त्रीसमावर्तनकर्मविकारं लक्षयति)। उल्लेखौ प्राग्दर्शिते काणेपुस्तके।

​

​​कल्पोक्तकर्मणां प्रकृतिर् एका निर्दिष्टा चेदपि नानावाक्यान्तरैर् तद्विकृतयो ज्ञेया भवन्ति। एवमेव न कस्मिन्नपि सूत्रे सम्पूर्णमप्य् उपनयनकर्मानुवदति क्षत्रियवैष्ययोर् - गौरवभिया।

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Shri Korada ji:

Thank you for your detailed clarifications.

I am not a Vidvan especially in front of people such as yourself. So kindly avoid referring to me as such.

I have a further doubt.

I have heard that a child (male/female) bears the karmas of the mother till 7/8 and the father till 14/16. (Unsure of the source for this)

Does this not also include the merit of any nityakarma / tapasya performed by parents?

Thanks,

Venkat

[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

Vidvan Visvas Vasuki ----

 

१.>अविहिते कामचारः - one is free to do as per his will in matters that are not ordained / prescribed by वेद / शास्त्रम् ।

कुत्रत्यमिदं

​ वाक्यम्?​ (मदभिमतमेव, तथापि मूलं जिज्ञासे) <

यथातथं च वाक्यम् अन्वेषणीयम् -- may be from प्रागुपनयनात् कामचारः कामवादः कामभक्षः ( गौ ध सू 1-2-1) | प्रायेण धर्मशास्त्रग्रन्थेषु

मीमांसायाग्रन्थेषु च उद्ध्रियते ।

२ .> ननु

​ भाष्यकारो वक्ति स्पष्टम् - "एतस्मिन्नार्यावर्ते (निवासे) ये ब्राह्मणाः कुम्भीधान्या  इदानीं गणनां कुर्वन्तु कति शिष्टा अवशिष्टा इति।​<

Even during the time of Patanjali not all were conforming to the above 100% --- take the तात्पर्यम् and historical reality --

1.you just study a 1000 horoscopes -- different भावs would give you  the idea  that all cannot  follow the standards 100%.

2.अप्रयुक्ते दीर्घसत्रवत् ( सिद्धान्तवार्तिकम्)  ( पस्पशा )

भाष्यम्  --

यद्यप्यप्रयुक्ताः - अवश्यं दीर्घसत्रवल्लक्षणेनानुविधेयाः । तद्यथा दीर्घसत्राणि वार्षशतिकानि  वार्षसहस्रिकाणि च । न चाद्यत्वे कश्चिदपि आहरति । केवलम्

ऋषिसम्प्रदायो धर्म इति कृत्वा  याज्ञिकाः शास्त्रेण अनुविदधते ।

अद्यत्वे = पाणिनेः व्याकरणप्रणयनकाले

3.भाष्यम्  (पस्पशा) --

पुराकल्पे एतदासीत् - संस्कारोत्तरकालं ब्राह्मणा व्याकरणं स्माधीयते । तेभ्यः ..... वैदिकाः शब्दाः उपदिश्यन्ते । तदद्यत्वे न तथा ।

 पुराकल्पे = युगान्तरे ; संस्कारः = उपनयनम् ;अद्यत्वे=पतञ्जलिकाले ;  न तथा = विपरीतम् 

If one takes Patanjali's parameters then even Kumarila , PrabhAkara , Samkaracarya , Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya 

etc also cannot be considered as शिष्टाः !

विरामो’वसानम् (1-4-109) भाष्यम् --

उपरतान्यस्मिन् कुले व्रतानि , उपरतः स्वाध्यायः । न च तत्र स्वाध्यायो भूतपूर्वो भवति नापि व्रतानि । 

 This is just कालमहिमा । 

In उद्योगपर्व of महाभारतम् , आपद्धर्मs are  mentioned .

So I said - every ब्राह्मण is an अब्राह्मण in one respect or the other but depending on the time , a person's state of body

and mind and आचार the शिष्टत्वम् is to be decided . One would follow यथाशक्ति ।

३>बोधप्रदे

​ ऽस्मिल्ँ लेखे एष एक दोषः।

 कल्पेशास्त्रय् अन्तर्भवत्येव हारितधर्मसूत्रम् (यद् ब्रह्मवादिन्युपनयनम् उपलक्षयति), आश्वलायनगृह्यसूत्रञ्च (यद्धि स्त्रीसमावर्तनकर्मविकारं लक्षयति)। उल्लेखौ प्राग्दर्शिते काणेपुस्तके।

​

​​कल्पोक्तकर्मणां प्रकृतिर् एका निर्दिष्टा चेदपि नानावाक्यान्तरैर् तद्विकृतयो ज्ञेया भवन्ति। एवमेव न कस्मिन्नपि सूत्रे सम्पूर्णमप्य् उपनयनकर्मानुवदति क्षत्रियवैष्ययोर् - गौरवभिया। <

कल्पशास्त्रे सन्ति चत्वारि सूत्राणि -- श्रौत-गृह्य-शुल्ब-धर्मसूत्रात्मकानि । 

धर्मशास्त्रकाराणां मध्द्ये सन्ति बहवः अभिप्रायभेदाः - केवलं हारीतेनैव स्त्रीणाम्  उपनयनम् प्रस्तावितम् । नान्यत्र गौतम-मनु-याज्ञवल्क्यादिषु ।

पुरा कल्पेषु नारीणां मौञ्जीबन्धनमिष्यते - इत्यादि कल्पान्तरविषयः , न तु कलियुगविषयः । ब्रह्मवादिन्यः तदा आसन् नेदानींतनकाले ।

नाममात्रेणापि  स्मृतिषु गृह्यसूत्रेषु  तद्व्याख्येनेषु वा स्त्रीणाम् उपनयनम् नैव विहितम् । 

मीमांसकैः  ’ प्रकृतिवद्विकृतिः कर्तव्या ’ इति नियमः अनुष्ठीयते । यत्र सकलाङ्गोपदेशः दर्शपूर्णमासादिः  सः  प्रकृतियाग इति यत्र  कतिपयाङ्गोपदेशः सौर्यादिः

सः विकृतियाग इति व्यवह्रियते ।

 Nowhere in कल्प is it mentioned that प्रकृतिवद्विकृतिः कर्तव्या (मीमांसान्यायः)  has to be applied . Even if we take षोडशोपचारपूजा

it is just ऊह (replacing the name of the deity etc) and not like विकृतियाग । You may show some प्रमाणम् ।

अपि च नास्माभिः  कदापि  अयं विषयः श्रुतपूर्वः न दृश्टपूर्वो वा । अस्माकं पूर्वैः नानुष्टितः । विवाह एव स्त्रीणां औपनायनिकसंस्कारः । 

कलियुगे स्त्रीणाम् उपनयनं न विहितम् ।

हारीतवचनं तु अर्थवादत्वेन नेयः ।

..................

Vidvan Venkat Veeraraghavan ---

1.>I am not a Vidvan especially in front of people such as yourself. So kindly avoid referring to me as such.<

This is not possible - this group is called  विद्वत्परिषत् - so all are Vidvans . 

Also we have to incur  पानिनिविरोधः --

तदधीते तद्वेद (4-2-59) -- व्याकरणम् अधीते वेत्ति वा वैयाकरणः ।

This is the tradition - one who is learning and the one who already learnt are considered on a par with each other.

2.>I have heard that a child (male/female) bears the karmas of the mother till 7/8 and the father till 14/16. (Unsure of the source for this)

Does this not also include the merit of any nityakarma / tapasya performed by parents?<

I have not seen this . But --

राजा राष्ट्रकृतं पापं राजपापं पुरोहितः ।

भर्ता च स्त्रीकृतं पापं शिष्यपापं गुरुर्व्रजेत् ॥

The पुण्यम् achieved out of नित्यकर्म / तपस्या by parents is not shared by anybody .

Alert -- you are using ' merit' for पुण्यम् !!

It was Vidvan Kale , who used  -- धर्मः /  religion ; पुण्यम् / merit ; दानम् / gift  etc . Many such terms are culture specific and pregnant with meaning.

But better to adapt the terms with transliteration so that the original meaning is not lost . In all these cases the back translation fails

- धर्मः - religion - मतम् ।

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 6:05 AM, Subrahmanyam Korada <kora...@gmail.com> wrote:

२ .> ननु

​ भाष्यकारो वक्ति स्पष्टम् - "एतस्मिन्नार्यावर्ते (निवासे) ये ब्राह्मणाः कुम्भीधान्या  इदानीं गणनां कुर्वन्तु कति शिष्टा अवशिष्टा इति।​<

Even during the time of Patanjali not all were conforming to the above 100% --- take the तात्पर्यम् and historical reality --

1.you just study a 1000 horoscopes -- different भावs would give you  the idea  that all cannot  follow the standards 100%.

2.अप्रयुक्ते दीर्घसत्रवत् ( सिद्धान्तवार्तिकम्)  ( पस्पशा )

भाष्यम्  --

यद्यप्यप्रयुक्ताः - अवश्यं दीर्घसत्रवल्लक्षणेनानुविधेयाः । तद्यथा दीर्घसत्राणि वार्षशतिकानि  वार्षसहस्रिकाणि च । न चाद्यत्वे कश्चिदपि आहरति । केवलम्

ऋषिसम्प्रदायो धर्म इति कृत्वा  याज्ञिकाः शास्त्रेण अनुविदधते ।

अद्यत्वे = पाणिनेः व्याकरणप्रणयनकाले

​दीर्घसत्रम् तदा ​​नाहरन्ति स्म चेत् साङ्गोपाङ्गवेदानाम् अध्येतारो कुम्भीधान्या अलोलुपा नासन्निति न।​ यदि न ते ऽभविष्यन्, न व्यर्थलक्षणम् अदास्यद् ऋषिः।

 

3.भाष्यम्  (पस्पशा) --

पुराकल्पे एतदासीत् - संस्कारोत्तरकालं ब्राह्मणा व्याकरणं स्माधीयते । तेभ्यः ..... वैदिकाः शब्दाः उपदिश्यन्ते । तदद्यत्वे न तथा ।

 पुराकल्पे = युगान्तरे ; संस्कारः = उपनयनम् ;अद्यत्वे=पतञ्जलिकाले ;  न तथा = विपरीतम् 

​व्याकरणमध्येत्य वेदाध्ययनम् इति क्रमो न चेदासीत् वेदाध्ययनेन साकं व्याकरणाध्ययनं नासीदिति न मन्तव्यम्।  "अनर्थकं व्याकरणम्" इति बहवो मन्यन्ते चेत् सर्वे तथा मेनिर इति न खलु। स्वयम् पतञ्जलिः प्रमाणम्।

 

If one takes Patanjali's parameters then even Kumarila , PrabhAkara , Samkaracarya , Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya 

etc also cannot be considered as शिष्टाः !

कुमरील-प्रभाकरयोर्

​ अशिष्टत्वस्य किम् प्रमाणम्?? कथमिव पतञ्जल्युक्तलक्षणं तेषु नान्वेति?​ शङ्करमाध्वरामानुजाधीतिषु न जानामि। आसीन्ननु वेदान्तदेशिको ऽपरः?

​​

श्रूयन्ते

​ ज्ञायन्ते च नैकशास्त्रकोविदा भवभूतिसदृशाः -

​ कथं तेषाम् अप्य् अशिष्टता?

विरामो’वसानम् (1-4-109) भाष्यम् --

उपरतान्यस्मिन् कुले व्रतानि , उपरतः स्वाध्यायः । न च तत्र स्वाध्यायो भूतपूर्वो भवति नापि व्रतानि । 

 This is just कालमहिमा । 

In उद्योगपर्व of महाभारतम् , आपद्धर्मs are  mentioned .

सत्यम्

​, कालाय तस्मै नमः।​

 

So I said - every ब्राह्मण is an अब्राह्मण in one respect or the other but depending on the time

भवद्वचनम्

​, न पतञ्जलेः :-)​

 

, a person's state of body

and mind and आचार the शिष्टत्वम् is to be decided . One would follow यथाशक्ति ।

शिष्टेषु

​ तारतम्यम् अस्तीत्यङ्गीकरोमि। शिष्टतमा न वर्तन्ते, येषां व्यवहारं दृष्ट्वा शास्त्राभिप्रायं‌ निश्चप्रचं ज्ञातुं शक्नुयाम। उप​शिष्टस्तु वर्तन्ते, येषां व्यवहारं दृष्ट्वा शास्त्राभिप्राये प्रायिकं ज्ञातुं लब्धुं शक्नुयाम। किञ्च शास्त्रपरीक्षा ऽनिवार्या ऽद्येति स्थितिः।

अन्ये

​ तु सन्ति केचन ये ह्यस्मिन्नपि दिने "दक्षिणायने" इत्येवं सङ्कल्पं वदन्तो दृश्यन्ते। ते ह्युपहासपात्रमन्तरा न हि बत  शिष्टताम् आप्नुवन्ति।​

 

३>बोधप्रदे

​ ऽस्मिल्ँ लेखे एष एक दोषः।

 कल्पेशास्त्रय् अन्तर्भवत्येव हारितधर्मसूत्रम् (यद् ब्रह्मवादिन्युपनयनम् उपलक्षयति), आश्वलायनगृह्यसूत्रञ्च (यद्धि स्त्रीसमावर्तनकर्मविकारं लक्षयति)। उल्लेखौ प्राग्दर्शिते काणेपुस्तके।

​

​​कल्पोक्तकर्मणां प्रकृतिर् एका निर्दिष्टा चेदपि नानावाक्यान्तरैर् तद्विकृतयो ज्ञेया भवन्ति। एवमेव न कस्मिन्नपि सूत्रे सम्पूर्णमप्य् उपनयनकर्मानुवदति क्षत्रियवैष्ययोर् - गौरवभिया। <

कल्पशास्त्रे सन्ति चत्वारि सूत्राणि -- श्रौत-गृह्य-शुल्ब-धर्मसूत्रात्मकानि । 

धर्मशास्त्रकाराणां मध्द्ये सन्ति बहवः अभिप्रायभेदाः - केवलं हारीतेनैव स्त्रीणाम्  उपनयनम् प्रस्तावितम् । नान्यत्र गौतम-मनु-याज्ञवल्क्यादिषु ।

​​

पुरा कल्पेषु नारीणां मौञ्जीबन्धनमिष्यते - इत्यादि कल्पान्तरविषयः , न तु कलियुगविषयः । ब्रह्मवादिन्यः तदा आसन् नेदानींतनकाले ।

सत्यम्।

​ प्राचीनकालय् आसन्, नाधुना। किञ्च सर्वथा न भवितुमर्हन्त्येवेति न। अभावलक्षणं न निषेधः।​ कलिवर्ज्येषु नान्तर्भवति।

 

नाममात्रेणापि  स्मृतिषु गृह्यसूत्रेषु  तद्व्याख्येनेषु वा स्त्रीणाम् उपनयनम् नैव विहितम् । 

​आश्वलायनेन ​

समावर्तने

​ स्पष्टं विहितय् उपनयनं गम्यत एव।

 

मीमांसकैः  ’ प्रकृतिवद्विकृतिः कर्तव्या ’ इति नियमः अनुष्ठीयते । यत्र सकलाङ्गोपदेशः दर्शपूर्णमासादिः  सः  प्रकृतियाग इति यत्र  कतिपयाङ्गोपदेशः सौर्यादिः

सः विकृतियाग इति व्यवह्रियते ।

 Nowhere in कल्प is it mentioned that प्रकृतिवद्विकृतिः कर्तव्या (मीमांसान्यायः)  has to be applied . Even if we take षोडशोपचारपूजा

it is just ऊह (replacing the name of the deity etc) and not like विकृतियाग । You may show some प्रमाणम् ।

​ ​

श्रीमन्

​, येन केनापि अधीतापस्तम्बसूत्रेण स्पष्टं ज्ञायते यत् सर्पबल्युपक्रमस्य प्रकृतिः पार्वणस्थालीपाक इति। इत्युक्तौ विकृतिः पार्वणस्थालिपाकस्य सर्पबल्युपक्रमहोम इति। सूत्रेषु लाघवात् सर्वं न व्यक्तमुच्यते चेद् मीमांसादिकं‌ शरण्यम् -  परिभाषा यथा व्याकरणे।

 

अपि च नास्माभिः  कदापि  अयं विषयः श्रुतपूर्वः न दृश्टपूर्वो वा । अस्माकं पूर्वैः नानुष्टितः ।

​​न​ च बहुभिः‌ "December 23"​ तमे दिनय् उत्तराणवचनं श्रुतं दृष्टं वा।​

 

विवाह एव स्त्रीणां औपनायनिकसंस्कारः ।

कलियुगे स्त्रीणाम् उपनयनं न विहितम् ।

हारीतवचनं तु अर्थवादत्वेन नेयः ।

स्तुतिनिन्दात्मको

​ ऽर्थवादः। कां स्तुतिं निन्दाम् वाऽत्र मनुते भवान्? काञ्चाश्वलायनवचने?

[Subrahmanyam Korada]

मन्ये मम भावं नाधिगच्छति भवान् --

इदानींतनकाले कियन्तः शिष्टाः भाष्योक्तलक्षणलक्षिताः सन्तीति भवता उक्तम् । मया उच्यते भाष्यादिप्रामाण्येन यत्  सर्वकालेषु  भाष्योक्तसर्वलक्षणलक्षिताः

नैव भवन्ति - भविष्यन्ति वा । इयं लोकरीतिः ।

मया स्वकपोलकल्पनया न किंचिदुच्यते -- 

ब्राह्मणाब्राह्मणश्ब्दविषये प्राचीनकालादपि व्यवहारः एवं वर्तते यत् न को’पि सर्ववेदशास्त्रोक्तकर्माणि  प्रतिदिनं आचरन् वर्तते । एतच्च स्पष्टम् प्रतीयते पतञ्जलिना।

सर्वमपि शास्त्रेषु  स्पष्टतया नोच्यते इति भवतैवोच्यते । शब्दप्रमाणेन अनुमानप्रमाणेन च अस्माभिः अवगन्तव्यम् ।

कालक्रमेण अध्ययने आचारे अनुष्ठाने च सर्वथा हीनता अस्त्येवेति मे’भिसन्धिः ।

गतसहस्रवर्षेषु येन केनापि शिष्टेन शिष्टकल्पेन वा स्त्रीणाम् उपनयन्म् अनुष्ठितमिति श्रुतं वा । अनुष्ठानप्रधानानि किल वैदिककर्माणि ।

आचारश्चैव साधूनाम् धर्ममूलम् इति मनुः । यदि अनुष्ठीयते  तर्हि न कस्यापि विप्रतिपत्तिः ।

मनुनैव उक्तम् -- सर्वे’पि संस्काराः स्त्रीणाम् अमन्त्रकाः कार्याः , विवाहश्च तासाम्  उपनयनेन समानमिति । इतरदपि प्रमाणम्  निर्णयसिन्धोः

प्रदर्शितं किल ।

यदि तत् प्रामाणं स्यात् तर्हि कथं तावत् निर्णयसिन्ध्वादिषु आपस्तंबादिषु च न वचनमात्रमपि उच्यते । 

प्रकृतिविकृतिन्यायः भिन्नकर्मणां मध्ये भवेत् न तु  समानकर्मणि भिन्नव्यक्तीनां मध्ये --  स्त्रीपुंसयोः उपनयने केवलं  मन्त्रेषु लिङ्गविभक्त्यादिकस्य

ऊहः क्रियते - मया तदेवोक्तम् । यत्र कानिचन आङ्गानि प्रकृतियागात् स्वीक्रियन्ते तत्रैव विकृतियागसंज्ञा । तत्रापि ऊहः भवेच्चेत् भवेन्नाम । 

यदि  पुरुषोपनयने सर्वाण्यङ्गान्युक्त्वा स्त्रियः उपनयने च कतिपयान्येव अङ्गान्युक्त्वा शिष्टानि पुरुषोपनयनात् आनीयन्ते तदा भवदुक्तिः सङ्गच्छेत।

ब्रह्मवादिनीस्थानीयाः यदि सन्ति तासां   स्तुतिः । 

अस्तु वा मतभेदः  स्मृतिकाराणाम् - इदानींतने काले शिष्टैः शिष्टकल्पैर्वा नानुष्ठीयते - नापि आश्वलायनैः ।

अलम् विचार्य 

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

2017-12-22 9:39 GMT-08:00 Subrahmanyam Korada <kora...@gmail.com>:

मन्ये मम भावं नाधिगच्छति भवान् --

इदानींतनकाले कियन्तः शिष्टाः भाष्योक्तलक्षणलक्षिताः सन्तीति भवता उक्तम् । मया उच्यते भाष्यादिप्रामाण्येन यत्  सर्वकालेषु  भाष्योक्तसर्वलक्षणलक्षिताः

नैव भवन्ति - भविष्यन्ति वा । इयं लोकरीतिः ।

नासन्निति

​ न खलु? अद्य पाणिनीसदृशीम् प्रतिभाम् कल्पयितुमपि कठिनम्। किञ्च हा आस दाक्षीपुत्रः।​ आसञ्च भाष्यकारकाल इति भाष्यकारोक्त्यैव ज्ञेयम्।

 

मया स्वकपोलकल्पनया न किंचिदुच्यते -- 

ब्राह्मणाब्राह्मणश्ब्दविषये प्राचीनकालादपि व्यवहारः एवं वर्तते यत् न को’पि सर्ववेदशास्त्रोक्तकर्माणि  प्रतिदिनं आचरन् वर्तते । एतच्च स्पष्टम् प्रतीयते पतञ्जलिना।

एतद् ह्येकं मतभेदस्य स्थानम्।​

​

नित्यकर्माणि

​ काम्यकर्माणीति विभक्तेषु, नित्यकर्मणाम् अपि कर्तारो ऽग्न्याधानादीनाम् नासन्निति कथम्?​ अथव लोपे जाते सप्रायश्चित्तं नान्वतिष्ठन्न् इति कथम्?

 

गतसहस्रवर्षेषु येन केनापि शिष्टेन शिष्टकल्पेन वा स्त्रीणाम् उपनयन्म् अनुष्ठितमिति श्रुतं वा । अनुष्ठानप्रधानानि किल वैदिककर्माणि ।

सत्यमेव।

​ किञ्चानुष्ठानाभावे ऽपि विच्छेदे जाते ऽप्य् उचितम् अनुष्ठातुं कैश्चित् कदाचिद् इत्येव भाति।
​लुप्तेष्वपि क्षत्रियश्रौतयागेषु नन्वन्वतिष्ठन् तेषु काञ्चनाधुनिकराजपुत्राः?

 

आचारश्चैव साधूनाम् धर्ममूलम् इति मनुः । यदि अनुष्ठीयते  तर्हि न कस्यापि विप्रतिपत्तिः ।

अत्र

​ स्पष्टतायै प्रश्नः - योग्यस्त्रीष्वनुष्ठीयते चेदुपनयनं वेदाध्ययनादिकम्, न कस्यापि विप्रतिपत्तिरिति वा?​

 

मनुनैव उक्तम् -- सर्वे’पि संस्काराः स्त्रीणाम् अमन्त्रकाः कार्याः ,

​​

विवाहश्च तासाम्  उपनयनेन समानमिति । इतरदपि प्रमाणम्  निर्णयसिन्धोः

प्रदर्शितं किल ।

यदि तत् प्रामाणं स्यात् तर्हि कथं तावत् निर्णयसिन्ध्वादिषु आपस्तंबादिषु च न वचनमात्रमपि उच्यते । 

​​विवाहश्च तासाम् उपनयनेन सममित्यादाव् अब्रह्मवादिन्यो ग्राह्या इति भाति। तथाऽपि समन्वयः शक्यः। (युगान्तरविषयम् तत् कर्मेति समन्वयान्तरं भवतानूक्तं प्रसिद्धम् एव।)

​अथ ​

यथोक्तं

​ भवतैव सूत्रकारेषु नैकविषयेषु मतभेदो ग्राह्यः। ​निर्णयसिन्धोर् बहुमान्यस्याप्य् अपूर्णतायाम् न स्याद् आश्चर्यं महत्।

​​

 

प्रकृतिविकृतिन्यायः भिन्नकर्मणां मध्ये भवेत् न तु  समानकर्मणि भिन्नव्यक्तीनां मध्ये --  स्त्रीपुंसयोः उपनयने केवलं  मन्त्रेषु लिङ्गविभक्त्यादिकस्य

ऊहः क्रियते - मया तदेवोक्तम् । यत्र कानिचन आङ्गानि प्रकृतियागात् स्वीक्रियन्ते तत्रैव विकृतियागसंज्ञा । तत्रापि ऊहः भवेच्चेत् भवेन्नाम । 

यदि  पुरुषोपनयने सर्वाण्यङ्गान्युक्त्वा स्त्रियः उपनयने च कतिपयान्येव अङ्गान्युक्त्वा शिष्टानि पुरुषोपनयनात् आनीयन्ते तदा भवदुक्तिः सङ्गच्छेत।

पुमुपनयनस्यैव

​ विकारं स्त्र्युपनयनम् इत्याशयः - स च विकारो गृह एव भिक्षाग्रहणाग्निसमिन्धनाभ्याम्।​

​

​ अथवा यथोक्तं भवता मा भूद् विकृतिसंज्ञाऽत्र - समानविधिस् सोहो गृह्यताम्।​ अनुक्तो विधिरिति मा भूत्।

 

ब्रह्मवादिनीस्थानीयाः यदि सन्ति तासां   स्तुतिः । 

​

उपनयनविधानं

​ स्वगृह एव भिक्षाचर्येत्यादि कथं स्तुतिर् भवति? समावर्तने च कथमुपस्थलेपनविधानम् आश्वलायनेन स्तुतिः? ​

 

अस्तु वा मतभेदः  स्मृतिकाराणाम् - इदानींतने काले शिष्टैः शिष्टकल्पैर्वा नानुष्ठीयते - नापि आश्वलायनैः

​कौतूहलान्तरम् - कर्णाटकेषु मैत्रेयीगुरुकुले स्त्रीणाम् वेदाध्यापनं भवतीति श्रुतम् - अपि ता उपनीयन्ते?​

क्षमावतैतावच्छ्रुतम्

​ प्रत्युक्तञ्चेति कृतज्ञोऽहम्। 🙏​

 परिवर्तनेषु सत्स्वपि शास्त्रसारो ग्रहणीयो रक्षणीयश्चेति मतिः।

[Subrahmanyam Korada]

विद्वन् !

पुनः पुनः विचार्यमाणे भवदुपस्थापितः तर्कः बलीयानिति प्रतिभाति --

स्यादेतत् --

कात्यायनेन स्मर्यते (3-3) --

यन्नाम्नातं स्वशाखायां परोक्तम् अविरोधि च ।

विद्वद्भिस्तदनुष्ठेयम् अग्निहोत्रादिकर्मवत् ॥

तस्मात् आपस्तम्बेन अनुक्तमपि  बालिकोपनयनम् आश्वलायनोक्तम् अवश्यमनुष्ठेयम् । न च  आश्वलायनोक्तिः सर्वथा प्रत्याख्यातुम् वचनशतेनापि शक्यते?

आह च शातातपः --

बह्वल्पं वा स्वगृह्योक्तं यस्य यावत्प्रचोदितम् ।

तस्य तावति शास्त्रार्थे कृते सर्वः कृतो भवेत् ॥

अयम् अशक्तपक्षः इति मीमांसकाः । अस्तु ।

विवाहानन्तरं तु षाष्ठः दम्पत्योः सहाधिकारः ततश्च सहधर्मचारित्वात् कर्मसु सहभागित्वम् --

यजमानशब्देन वेदे सर्वदा पुंसि एवाभिधानात्  पत्न्यादयस्तु पत्नीशब्देनैवाभिधानात् .... ( शास्त्रदीपिका , मी सू 3-3-9-17/18/19)

तस्मात् भवदुक्त एव सिद्धान्तः प्रमाण्पदवीम् आरोहति । अन्ते सिद्धः सिद्धान्तः - वादिप्रतिवादिभ्यां निर्णीतो’र्थः सिद्धान्त इत्युच्यते ।

भवान् किं करोतीति मां किं न प्रुच्छति भवान् --

पुत्रं पुत्रीं च विघ्नेश्वरपूज-पुण्याहवाचन-पुरुषसूक्त-महामन्त्रपुष्पाणि अध्यापयामासाहम् । 

सन्तुष्टश्चाहम् भवद्विचारेण । 

एतादृशाः विचाराः इतो’प्यधिकाः प्रवर्तेरन्निति आशासे ।

धन्यो’स्मि

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

How is this possible?

 A Brahmavadini has Upanayana in 8th year of conception and finished student hood by age of puberty? Page 295 of Kane's book. 

For studying one Veda it will take 12 years. If you add 12 +8 = 20. How can age of puberty become 20 years for woman? Not possible.

To make it possible we have to ASSUME life span of more than Kali Yuga. Like in Dwapara and Treta Yugas life span was thousands of years. In that SCENARIO age of puberty may be more than 60 years also. In that SCENARIO the Brahmavadini could study all Vedas and finish before puberty. She had enough time to study. In Kali Yuga age of puberty is hardly 10 to 14 years from birth for females. In 2 to max 6 years she cannot study much. She cannot definitely complete in 6 years.  

Therefore our Dharma Sastras are CORRECT. Upanayana for women and Vedic Study is possible in other Yugas only. Not Kali Yuga. In Kali Yuga it is PROHIBITED. Simple Arithmetic is enough to show this.

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 2:46 AM, विश्वासो वासुकेयः <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

sunil bhattacharjya<skbhatt...@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 11:07 PM wrote:

That a girl can undergo the upanayanam is given in the Harita Smriti. Probably they wore it like a necklace. As I understand, the girl will have her father as the guru. I am open to correction.

Regards,

skb  

एवं ह्यनुवदति काणे-पाण्डुरङ्गः  https://archive.org/stream/HistoryOfDharmasastraVol.IIPartIPandurangVamanKane/History%20Of%20Dharmasastra%20-%20Vol.%20II%20Part%20I%20-%20Pandurang%20Vaman%20Kane#page/n345/mode/2up

 

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Regards

 

-Venkatesh

[V Subrahmanian]

On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 9:07 PM, Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste

How is this possible?

 A Brahmavadini has Upanayana in 8th year of conception and finished student hood by age of puberty? Page 295 of Kane's book. 

For studying one Veda it will take 12 years. If you add 12 +8 = 20. How can age of puberty become 20 years for woman? Not possible.

To make it possible we have to ASSUME life span of more than Kali Yuga. Like in Dwapara and Treta Yugas life span was thousands of years.

I do not think this is true. For, Krishna, Pandavas, etc. did not live thousands of years.  They exited this earth in the range of 100 - 150 years of life. Can we say that Rukmini was offered for marriage when she was some 60 years of age?  

regards

vs

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 9:15 PM, V Subrahmanian <v.subra...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 9:07 PM, Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste

How is this possible?

 A Brahmavadini has Upanayana in 8th year of conception and finished student hood by age of puberty? Page 295 of Kane's book. 

For studying one Veda it will take 12 years. If you add 12 +8 = 20. How can age of puberty become 20 years for woman? Not possible.

To make it possible we have to ASSUME life span of more than Kali Yuga. Like in Dwapara and Treta Yugas life span was thousands of years.

I do not think this is true. For, Krishna, Pandavas, etc. did not live thousands of years.  They exited this earth in the range of 100 - 150 years of life. Can we say that Rukmini was offered for marriage when she was some 60 years of age?  

It is possible. I read somewhere Krishna was more than 80 years old at the time of Mahabharata war. Yudhisthira was older than Krishna. Duryodhana was older. Bhishma was hundreds of years old.

 

regards

vs

 

In that SCENARIO age of puberty may be more than 60 years also. In that SCENARIO the Brahmavadini could study all Vedas and finish before puberty. She had enough time to study. In Kali Yuga age of puberty is hardly 10 to 14 years from birth for females. In 2 to max 6 years she cannot study much. She cannot definitely complete in 6 years.  

Therefore our Dharma Sastras are CORRECT. Upanayana for women and Vedic Study is possible in other Yugas only. Not Kali Yuga. In Kali Yuga it is PROHIBITED. Simple Arithmetic is enough to show this.

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Regards

 

-Venkatesh

[venkat veeraraghavan]

The Pandavas although technically born in dvapara, were on the cusp of kali yuga. So I am unsure if dvapara lifespans hold in this case. 

Krishna and the Pandavas were 120+ when they left the world.

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

2017-12-24 6:13 GMT-08:00 Subrahmanyam Korada <kora...@gmail.com>:

विद्वन् !

पुनः पुनः विचार्यमाणे भवदुपस्थापितः तर्कः बलीयानिति प्रतिभाति --

​

बुद्धिर् हि प्रामाणिकी भवादृशाम् वन्दनीया पुनः पुनः। अभिप्रायभेदे सत्यपि सप्रमाणत्वाद् विचारपूर्वकत्वाच्च बोधप्रधा अभवन् भवल्लेखाः।​

 

स्यादेतत् --

कात्यायनेन स्मर्यते (3-3) --

यन्नाम्नातं स्वशाखायां परोक्तम् अविरोधि च ।

विद्वद्भिस्तदनुष्ठेयम् अग्निहोत्रादिकर्मवत् ॥

तस्मात् आपस्तम्बेन अनुक्तमपि  बालिकोपनयनम् आश्वलायनोक्तम् अवश्यमनुष्ठेयम् । न च  आश्वलायनोक्तिः सर्वथा प्रत्याख्यातुम् वचनशतेनापि शक्यते?

​"​

अत्रावश्य

​"​

शब्दे

​ ऽस्ति मम पुनर् विचारभेदः। कुलीनास्वपि बालासु काश्चनैव ब्रह्मवादित्वे ऽधिकारिण्यः। अद्यत्वे बालानां प्रौढानाम् विशिष्य ​

​पतनं

​ दुःखकरं​ प्रत्यक्षम्। सुखं काङ्क्षन्ते, न तपः।

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 7:37 AM, Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste

How is this possible?

 A Brahmavadini has Upanayana in 8th year of conception and finished student hood by age of puberty? Page 295 of Kane's book. 

For studying one Veda it will take 12 years. If you add 12 +8 = 20.

 

​

भवतः‌

​ गणनायां सन्ति नैके दोषाः। २९५-तमे पृष्ठे पञ्चमवर्ष एवोपनयनं सम्भवतीति स्पष्टम्। पुनः, वेदाध्ययनाय सर्वैरपि १२ वर्षाणि नापेक्ष्यन्ते। जानामि कञ्चित् स्नेहितं येन माध्यन्दिनसंहिता वर्षद्वय एवाधीता (ब्राह्मणासमिश्रितत्वात् तत् तत्र सहजम्)। तत्तिरीयकः कश्चन मत्परिचितः ३.५ वर्षेषु स्वसंहिताम् अधिजगाम।​ आस्ताम् - ब्रह्मचर्यावधौ किमुक्तमिति निभालयतु सकृद् भवान् -  https://archive.org/stream/HistoryOfDharmasastraVol.IIPartIPandurangVamanKane/History%20Of%20Dharmasastra%20-%20Vol.%20II%20Part%20I%20-%20Pandurang%20Vaman%20Kane#page/n403/mode/2up । 

​​

How can age of puberty become 20 years for woman? Not possible.

रजस

​ आविर्भावं यावदेव ब्रह्मचर्यं ब्रह्मवादिनीनां स्यादित्यत्र किम् प्रमाणम्?​

​

 

To make it possible we have to ASSUME life span of more than Kali Yuga. Like in Dwapara and Treta Yugas life span was thousands of years. In that SCENARIO age of puberty may be more than 60 years also.

चित्रमेतत्।

​ :-)​

 

In that SCENARIO the Brahmavadini could study all Vedas and finish before puberty. She had enough time to study. In Kali Yuga age of puberty is hardly 10 to 14 years from birth for females. In 2 to max 6 years she cannot study much. She cannot definitely complete in 6 years.  

Therefore our Dharma Sastras are CORRECT. Upanayana for women and Vedic Study is possible in other Yugas only. Not Kali Yuga. In Kali Yuga it is PROHIBITED. Simple Arithmetic is enough to show this.

On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 2:46 AM, विश्वासो वासुकेयः <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

sunil bhattacharjya<skbhatt...@gmail.com> Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 11:07 PM wrote:

That a girl can undergo the upanayanam is given in the Harita Smriti. Probably they wore it like a necklace. As I understand, the girl will have her father as the guru. I am open to correction.

Regards,

skb  

एवं ह्यनुवदति काणे-पाण्डुरङ्गः  https://archive.org/stream/HistoryOfDharmasastraVol.IIPartIPandurangVamanKane/History%20Of%20Dharmasastra%20-%20Vol.%20II%20Part%20I%20-%20Pandurang%20Vaman%20Kane#page/n345/mode/2up

 

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Regards

 

-Venkatesh

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[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

On Mon, Dec 25, 2017 at 2:20 AM, विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

रजस

​ आविर्भावं यावदेव ब्रह्मचर्यं ब्रह्मवादिनीनां स्यादित्यत्र किम् प्रमाणम्?​

Kindly see  Page 111 -

https://archive.org/stream/DharmasutrasTheLawCodesOfApastambaGautamaBaudhayanaAndVasistha/Dharmas%C5%ABtras%20-%20The%20Law%20Codes%20of%20%C4%80pastamba%2C%20Gautama%2C%20Baudh%C4%81yana%20and%20Vasi%E1%B9%A3%E1%B9%ADha#page/n157/mode/2up

अत्र धर्मसूत्राणि - प्रदानं प्राग् ऋतोः , अप्रयच्छन् दोषी, प्राग् वाससः प्रतिपत्तेरित्येके

Gautama Dharma Sutra and others are very strict about marriage of girls before puberty. Some even say girl must be married before she begins to wear clothes. This is a very young age.

प्रदानं प्राग् ऋतोः इत्यनेन धर्मसूत्रेण कन्यायाः विवाहः तस्याः ऋतोः पूर्वमेव करणीयः। अन्यथा पिता दोषी भवति । विवाहिता स्त्री पतिगृहे वसेत् न पितृगृहे इति विधिना विवाहितायाः अध्ययनं न संभवति ।

--

Regards

 

-Venkatesh

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 7:54 PM, Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste

On Mon, Dec 25, 2017 at 2:20 AM, विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

रजस

​ आविर्भावं यावदेव ब्रह्मचर्यं ब्रह्मवादिनीनां स्यादित्यत्र किम् प्रमाणम्?​

Kindly see  Page 111 -

https://archive.org/stream/DharmasutrasTheLawCodesOfApastambaGautamaBaudhayanaAndVasistha/Dharmas%C5%ABtras%20-%20The%20Law%20Codes%20of%20%C4%80pastamba%2C%20Gautama%2C%20Baudh%C4%81yana%20and%20Vasi%E1%B9%A3%E1%B9%ADha#page/n157/mode/2up

अत्र धर्मसूत्राणि - प्रदानं प्राग् ऋतोः , अप्रयच्छन् दोषी, प्राग् वाससः प्रतिपत्तेरित्येके

Gautama Dharma Sutra and others are very strict about marriage of girls before puberty. Some even say girl must be married before she begins to wear clothes. This is a very young age.

प्रदानं प्राग् ऋतोः इत्यनेन धर्मसूत्रेण कन्यायाः विवाहः तस्याः ऋतोः पूर्वमेव करणीयः। अन्यथा पिता दोषी भवति । विवाहिता स्त्री पतिगृहे वसेत् न पितृगृहे इति विधिना विवाहितायाः अध्ययनं न संभवति ।

केचनैव धर्मसूत्रकर्तार एवं वदन्ति, नेतरे - https://archive.org/stream/HistoryOfDharmasastraVol.IIPartIPandurangVamanKane/History%20Of%20Dharmasastra%20-%20Vol.%20II%20Part%20I%20-%20Pandurang%20Vaman%20Kane#page/n493/mode/2up , यदभिप्राये प्रौढविवाहो विगर्हितो बालानाम्। ​ एवम् अस्तु - तत् स्त्रीष्व् अब्रह्मवादिनिभिस् सहान्वेतीत्यस्तु समन्वयः।

(अहन्तु १३-१६ वर्षेष्वेव प्रायेणेच्छामि बालाविवाहम्, बहु मन्ये गृहस्थाश्रमम्। तथापि केचन पुंस इव काश्चन स्त्रियो न हि गार्हस्थ्यम् अर्हन्ति + इच्छन्ति वेति कटु सत्यम्।)

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

एतत् मतं यद्यपि अद्यतनजनेषु न प्रसिद्धं तथापि सत्यं वक्तव्यं यत् -

धर्मशास्त्रग्रन्थेषु स्पष्टीकृतं पदे पदे यत् रजस्वला स्त्री किमपि कर्म कर्तुं नार्हति । शुचित्वविहीना कथं वेदाध्ययनाधिकारिणी भवति? अत एव स्त्रीशूद्रद्विजबन्धूनां श्रेयस्करार्थं इतिहासपुराणश्रवणं प्रोक्तं , तेषां वेदाध्ययनं अनिष्टप्राप्तिहेतुरित्यपि प्रोक्तं शास्त्रकृद्भिः । द्विजः यत् वेदाध्ययनेन लभते तदेव स्त्रीशूद्रद्विजबन्धवः लभन्ते इतिहासपुराणश्रवणेन।

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

भोः मान्य,

रजस्वलावस्थायां वेदाध्ययनं कार्यम् इति केन बतोक्तम्? मासे न वा भवन्ति २४ दिनान्तराणि?

अपि च श्रौतकर्मसु विवाहे वा रजस्वलावस्था न बाधिकेति ज्ञेयम्।

[Dr.BVK Sastry(G-MAIL)]

Namaste

On < एतत् मतं यद्यपि अद्यतनजनेषु न प्रसिद्धं तथापि सत्यं वक्तव्यं यत् -   > .

1.     I feel  that there is a tremendous amount of  confusion on (a)   position of Dharmashastra and (b) ported understanding of the term < रजस्वला स्त्री  > across the Ayurveda and Dharma Shaastra, mixed up with a natural  female body phenomenon tied to cultural observances . 

2.     So it may be prudent to  examine the three issues clearly before throwing it open as ‘ yathecchasi tathaa kuru’ for your context of living and samskaras .

         Samskara is about the ‘Yoga value benefit’ and custom guidance. It is  not about a social , cultural imitation and ‘ back looking travel to future’.

(2a) The  meaning of < रजस्वला स्त्री>   < रजस्वलः - पुं, >    across multiple traditional disciplines and then push the debate on  ‘Veda rights, rites and limitations imposed on women’.   Notice the  masculine gender word and its specificity of meaning and context.

(2b) Dharma Shaastra issue :  Across disciplines and Ayurveda for health issues.

(2 c ) Cultural observance and current proposal for action.

3. Analysis

 3A)    The  meaning of   < रजस्वला स्त्री>   < रजस्वलः - पुं, >    across multiple traditional disciplines and then push the debate on  ‘Veda rights, rites and limitations imposed on women’.  

Samskrutham surely is a peculiar language, sensitive to  a single swara –varna variation !  Here in this context,  There is a need to see what –why of the term in the context?

 Is the term  < रजस्वला>   and then in a specific sense of  < mensturating  स्त्री  >  or   <  रजस्वलः  > in a differnt sense, yielding a differnt meaning across texts and contexts. The Lexicon entries are placed bleow for reference and deliberation.

 

When Dharmashaastra works repeatedly speak of < < रजस्वला स्त्री>   and <   स्त्री धर्म>  , the social context, the health and wellness context and spiritual context are to be seen clearly layered out.  < kimapi karma kartum naarhati> is a overstretched statement.  If she is not doing any work, how would she come in contact with another person and  there is a long list of ‘ Praayaschittas’ ??   Please read  the ‘ praayaschitta vivdhi’ noted below.

The   < Shuchi>  - < शुचित्वविहीना > is more aligned to the ‘Rajo guna temparament; and minimally to ‘ the body fluid changes as mensturation. Can one say with any confidence that a male does not suffer from < शुचित्वविहीन > condiiton  and  <  रजस्वलः  >state ?  Given the specific term in masculine and listed in dictionary ?

3B)  Dharma Shaastra issue  :  Dharma Shaastra seems to insist on  'Rajas' as ' One of the Three Gunas dominance in the body'.  Ayurveda focuses on Life style and Health ( Ritu charyaa , Swasthya ,Saukhya).

The cultural dictums and practice is a mix up from several streams inclusing the  'Tantra and Aagama'. The < रजस्वला>   observances do vary across four varnas ; and within each varna also, by profesion, status and social contexts.  A brahmana house maid could not  have put herself in to  confinements   under these rules and jeopardise her lively hood earning. And many Brahmana families keep a blind eye on this issue ,except  for critical samskaras and yajna related. 

3C)  Traditional guidance :        All said and done,  the ‘ Sandhyavandanam / upanayanam of women as  < kaama-chaara> = < doing as one likes> is a personal freedom and choice with consequences.  Should one draw ‘Puraa kalpa’ practices now ?  and insist ? – This is a mute question, especially for a ‘Brahminical cultural  pride’ where one  always thinks of ‘backward text compliance to text  by backward mode, where limit of backward tracing reference point is fuzzy. Even when ‘ traditional  brahmanas swear by a Gruhya  sutra for a samskara,  the practical is a mixed mode. The steps of ritual may come from ‘Gruhya Sutra’ but much of it gets reformatted by ‘Dharma-Shaastra’ and ‘ Shishtaachaara’ – ‘ Sadaachaara’ and ‘ practical local cultural contexts’. 

 The position of tradition is guided by the statements Shruti- Smriti (Gita) and Sadaachaara. Professor Korada has already clarified the rest of the issues:

( i)  यान्यवद्यानि कर्माणि, तानि सेवितव्यानि, नो इतराणि

 (ii)  तस्मात्  शास्त्रं प्रमाणं ते , कार्याकार्यव्यवस्थितौ ॥  and   

(iii)    Ashastravihitam ghoram tapyante ye tapo janah I

          Dambhahankarsanyuktah kamragblanvitah II

         Karshyantah shairastham bhutgramam achetsah I

         Mam chevantah sharirastham tanvidhiasurnishchayan II (  Gita :  5-6) 

Term Meanings :  रजस्वला    -     रजस्वलः 

 रजस्वल - (H3) रजस्--वल [p= 863,2] [L=173981]  mf (आ) n. covered with dust, dusty MBh.  ; BhP.   [p= 863,2] [L=173982]

full of the quality रजस्, full of passion Mn.  vi, 77 [p= 863,2] [L=173983] having water (= उदक-वत्) Nir.  Sch.  (H3B) रजस्--वल [p= 863,2] [L=173984] m. a buffalo L.  (H3B) रजस्--वल [p= 863,2] [L=173985] m. उष्ट्र or गर्दभ Sāy.  (cf. रजेषित under 2. रज, col.1 )

रजस्वलः [Cologne record ID=29038] [Printed book page 4-085]

रजस्वलः¦, पुं, (रजोऽत्रास्तीति । रजस् + “रजः- कृष्यासुतिपरिषदो वलच् ।” ५ । २ । ११२ ।  इति वलच् ।) महिषः । इति मेदिनी । ले, १६३ ॥ (अस्य पर्य्यायो यथा, —

“महिषो घोटकारिः स्यात् कासरश्च रजस्वलः । पीनस्कः कृष्णकायोऽथ लुलापो यमवाहनः ॥”

इति भावप्रकाशस्य पूर्व्वखण्डे द्बितीये भागे ॥  त्रि, रजोयुक्तः । यथा, भागवते । ७ । १३ । १२ ।

“तं शयानं धरोपस्थे कावेर्य्यां सह्यसानुनि । रजस्वलैस्तनूदेशैर्निगूढामलतेजसम् ॥”

रजोगुणयुक्तः । स्पृहयालुः । यथा, मनुः ।  ६ । ७७ ।

“जराशोकसमाविष्टं रोगायतनमातुरम् ।  रजस्वलमनित्यञ्च भूतावासमिमं त्यजेत् ॥”)

रजस्वला -    (H3B) रजस्--वला [p= 863,2] [L=173986] - f. a menstruating or marriageable woman GṛS.  ; Mn.  ; MBh.  &c.

 रजस्वला [Cologne record ID=29039] [Printed book page 4-085]

रजस्वला¦, स्त्री, (रजोऽस्त्यस्याः । “रजःकृष्या- सुतीति ।” ५ । २ । ११२ । इति वलच् । टाप् ।) रजोयुक्ता । तत्पर्य्यायः ।

 स्त्रीधर्म्मिणी २ अवी ३ आत्रेयी ४ मलिनी ५ पुष्पवती ६ ऋतुमती ७ उदक्या ८ । इत्यमरः । २ । ६ । २० ॥

दुरिः ९ पुष्पहासा १० । इति शब्दरत्नावली ॥

 पुष्पिता ११ अवीरा १२ विफली १३ निष्फली १४ । इति जटाधरः ॥ म्लाना १५ पांशुला १६ । इति राजनिर्घण्टः ॥ * ॥ 

अथ रजस्वलास्पर्शप्रायश्चित्तम् । “काश्यपः ।

‘रजस्वला तु संस्पृष्टा ब्राह्मण्या ब्राह्मणी यदि ।  एकरात्रं निराहारा पञ्चगव्येन शुध्यति ॥

रजस्वला तु संस्पृष्टा राजन्या ब्राह्मणी तु या ।  त्रिरात्रेण विशुद्धिः स्यात् व्याघ्रस्य वचनं यथा ॥

रजस्वला तु संस्पृष्टा वैश्यया ब्राह्मणी च या । पञ्चरात्रं निराहारा पञ्चगव्येन शुध्यति ॥

रजस्वला तु संस्पृष्टा शूद्रया ब्राह्मणी यदि । बड्रात्रेण विशुध्येत्तु ब्राह्मणी कामचारतः ॥

अकामतश्चरेदर्द्धं ब्राह्मणी सर्व्वजातिषु ॥’ एतेन रजस्वलाया ब्राह्मण्याः सवर्णरजस्वला-

स्पर्शे एकरात्रोपवासः पञ्चगव्यपानं कामतः । अकामतस्तदर्द्धम् । नक्तव्रतम् । असवर्णरज-

स्वलास्पर्शे त्रिरात्रपञ्चरात्रषड् रात्रोपवासाः । [Page4-085-b+ 52]

अकामतस्तदर्द्धम् । एतत् चतुर्थाहानन्तरं कर्त्तव्यम् ।  ‘चाण्डालेन श्वपाकेन संस्पृष्टा चेद्रजस्वला ।

अतिक्रम्य तान्यहानि प्रायश्चित्तं समाचरेत् ॥ त्रिरात्रमुपवासः स्यात् पञ्चगव्येन शुध्यति ।

तां निशान्तु व्यतिक्रम्य स्वजात्युक्तन्तु कारयेत् ॥’ इति वचनान्तरदर्शनात् एतत् कामतः ॥

अत्र दिनभेदोऽपि नास्ति । अज्ञाने बृहस्पतिः ।  ‘पतितान्त्यश्वपाकैश्च संस्पृष्टा स्त्री रजस्वला ।

तान्यहानि व्यतिक्रम्य प्रायश्चित्तं समाचरेत् ॥ प्रथमेऽह्नि त्रिरात्रं तु द्वितीये द्ब्यहमाचरेत् ।

अहोरात्रं तृतीयेऽह्नि चतुर्थे नक्तमाचरेत् ॥’ चतुर्थेऽह्नीति शुद्धिस्नानात् पूर्ब्बम् । व्याघ्रः ।

‘रजस्वला यदा स्पृष्टा श्वजम्बूकखरैः क्वचित् । निराहारा भवेत्तावत् यावत् स्नानेन शुध्यति ॥’

अत्रापि बृहस्पत्युक्तदिनभेदव्यवस्था । वृद्धशातातपः । 

‘रजस्वले तु ये नार्य्यावन्योन्यं स्पृशतो यदि । सवर्णे पञ्चगव्यन्तु ब्रह्मकूर्च्चमतः परम् ॥’

पञ्चगव्यपानं व्रतरूपम् । तेनोपवासः । ब्रह्मकूर्च्चमाह जावालः ।

‘अहोरात्रोषितो भूत्वा पौर्णमास्यां विशेषतः । पञ्चगव्यं पिबेत् प्रातर्ब्रह्मकूर्च्चविधिः स्मृतः ॥’

तदशक्तौ पुराणैकं दातव्यम् ।” इति प्रायश्चित्ततत्त्वम् ॥ * ॥ अन्यच्च ।

‘शुद्धा भर्त्तुश्चतुर्थेऽह्नि अशुद्धा दैवपैत्रयोः ।  दैवे कर्म्मणि पैत्रे च पञ्चमेऽहनि शुध्यति ॥’

इति शुद्धितत्त्वम् ॥ 

तस्यां गमने पापं यथा, “प्रथमे दिवसे कान्तां यो हि गच्छेद्रजस्वलाम् ।  ब्रह्महत्याचतुर्थांशं लभते नात्र संशयः ॥

स पुमान्न हि कर्म्मार्हो दैवे पैत्रे च कर्म्मणि ।  अधमः स च सर्व्वेषां निन्दितश्चायशस्करः ॥  द्वितीयदिवसे नारीं यो व्रजेच्च रजस्वलाम् ।

कामतः परिपूर्णाञ्च ब्रह्महत्यां लभेद्ध्रुवम् ॥ आजीवनं नाधिकारी पितृविप्रसुरार्च्चने ॥

अमनुष्योऽयशस्यः स्यादित्याङ्गिरसभाषितम् ॥ तृतीयदिवसे जायां यो हि गच्छेद्रजस्वलाम् ।

स मूढो ब्रह्महत्याञ्च लभते नात्र संशयः ॥  पूर्ब्बवत् पतितः सोऽपि न चार्हः सर्व्वकर्म्मसु ।

असत्पुत्त्रा चतुर्थेऽह्नि न गच्छेत्तां विचक्षणः ॥”

इति ब्रह्मवैवर्त्ते श्रीकृष्णजंन्मखण्डे ५९ अध्यायः ॥   अपि च ।

“अपूर्णे ऋतुकाले तु योऽभिगच्छेद्रजस्वलाम् ।  रेतपाः पितरस्तस्य एवमेतन्न संशयः ॥

एकस्तु पुरुषो याति द्बितीयां काममोहितः ।  तृतीयां वा चतुर्थीञ्च तदा स पुरुषाधमः ॥

ऋतुकाले तु सर्व्वासां पित्रर्थं भोग इष्यते । ऋतुकालाभिगामी यो ब्रह्मचार्य्येव सम्मतः ॥

न गच्छति च यः क्रोधात् मोहाद्वा पुरुषाधमः ।  ऋतौ ऋतौ भ्रूणहत्यां प्राप्नोति पुरुषश्चरन् ॥”

इति वाराहे गुह्यकर्म्मवर्णनं नामाध्यायः ॥  [Page4-085-c+ 52]

(अपि च ।

“रजस्वलास्त्रीगमनमेतन्नरककारणम् । रजस्वलावीरान्नञ्च पुंश्चल्यन्नञ्च भक्षणम् ।

अभक्ष्यान्नञ्च विप्रर्षे यदन्नं वृषलीपतेः ॥”  तथा च ।

“रजस्वलामकामाञ्च मलिनामप्रियान्तथा । वर्णवृद्धां वयोवृद्धां तथा व्याधिप्रपीडिताम् ॥

हीनाङ्गीं गर्भिणीं द्वेष्यां योनिदोषसमन्विताम् ।  सगोत्रां गुरुपुत्त्रीञ्च तथा प्रव्रजितामपि ॥

सन्ध्यापर्व्वस्वगम्याञ्च नोपेयात् प्रमदां नरः ॥ रजस्वलां प्राप्तवतो नरस्यानियतात्मनः ।

दृष्ट्यायुस्तेजसां हानि-रधर्म्मश्च ततो भवेत् ॥”  इति सुश्रुते चिकित्सितस्थाने २४ अध्यायः ॥)

Regards

BVK Sastry

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Venkatesh Murthy
Sent: Monday, 25 December, 2017 8:53 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

2017-12-25 21:12 GMT+05:30 विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com>:

भोः मान्य,

रजस्वलावस्थायां वेदाध्ययनं कार्यम् इति केन बतोक्तम्? मासे न वा भवन्ति २४ दिनान्तराणि?

अपि च श्रौतकर्मसु विवाहे वा रजस्वलावस्था न बाधिकेति ज्ञेयम्।

नित्यकर्माणि भवता नावगतानि। स्नानसन्ध्यावन्दनादीनि नित्यकर्माणि प्रतिदिनं कार्याणि। मासे केषुचित् दिनेषु नित्यकर्माणि कृत्वा केषुचित् दिनेषु यदि नित्यकर्माणि त्यजति प्रत्यवायो नाम दोषो जायते । वेदाध्ययनमपि नित्यकर्म एव, स्वाध्यायो अध्येतव्यः इति विधेः । प्रतिपदादिदिनानि अनध्ययनदिनानि वर्जयित्वा प्रतिदिनं वेदो अध्येतव्यः - अन्यथा दोषो जायते ।

स्त्रीणां वेदाध्ययनपक्षे -

रजस्वलावस्थायां यथा कर्मत्यागः अनिवार्यः तथा उक्तदोषोऽपि अनिवार्यः ।

--

Regards

 

-Venkatesh

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

2017-12-25 18:36 GMT-08:00 Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com>:

Namaste

2017-12-25 21:12 GMT+05:30 विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com>:

भोः मान्य,

रजस्वलावस्थायां वेदाध्ययनं कार्यम् इति केन बतोक्तम्? मासे न वा भवन्ति २४ दिनान्तराणि?

अपि च श्रौतकर्मसु विवाहे वा रजस्वलावस्था न बाधिकेति ज्ञेयम्।

नित्यकर्माणि भवता नावगतानि। स्नानसन्ध्यावन्दनादीनि नित्यकर्माणि प्रतिदिनं कार्याणि। मासे केषुचित् दिनेषु नित्यकर्माणि कृत्वा केषुचित् दिनेषु यदि नित्यकर्माणि त्यजति प्रत्यवायो नाम दोषो जायते । वेदाध्ययनमपि नित्यकर्म एव, स्वाध्यायो अध्येतव्यः इति विधेः । प्रतिपदादिदिनानि अनध्ययनदिनानि वर्जयित्वा प्रतिदिनं वेदो अध्येतव्यः - अन्यथा दोषो जायते ।

स्त्रीणां वेदाध्ययनपक्षे -

रजस्वलावस्थायां यथा कर्मत्यागः अनिवार्यः तथा उक्तदोषोऽपि अनिवार्यः ।

​​

​ब्रह्मचारिणां यतीनाञ्चाशौचं न भवति। ( https://archive.org/stream/HistoryOfDharmasastraancientAndMediaevalReligiousAndCivilLawV.4/Kane_A-History-of-Dharmasastra-v4_1953#page/n335/mode/2up )​ एवं ब्रह्मचारिणीनाम् अपि रजस्वलानां स्यात्।

अथवा ऽऽश्रमान्तरे पुरा कल्पे गृहस्थब्रह्मवादिनीनां या दशा ऽभवत्, सैवाधुनातनब्रह्मवादिनीनां स्यात्। नाम यथाऽशौचान्तरे शक्त्याभावे च मानसिककर्माणि विहितानि, तान्येव तासाम् अपि।​

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

इदमप्यवधेयम् - https://twitter.com/blog_supplement/status/709591126131482624 <-- काचिद् दात्री‌ मध्यकाल-मध्यदेश-मन्दिरस्य यज्ञोपवीतधारिणी चित्रिता। अपि च कश्चन - "इदानीमप्यौत्कल्यदेशे विवाहकाले कन्या धारयत्येव।  चतुर्थीकर्म पर्यन्तम्।  स्वयमेव दृष्टम्मया।"

[Deva Pattanayak]

Dear Potluri
I like to retract my last posting- hope you will be able to do that.
Thanks
Best Regards
Devanarayan