CNC controls and Windows XP

[John Dolecek]

CNC guys,

Many of our controls run on Windows XP and as I'm sure you all know Microsoft is not going to support it anymore. What do you plan to do with your machine, if anything? I would like to be able to have mine connected to the network for ease of file transfer but of course can't afford to have any hiccups. 

I've considered the option of using a newer Dell from Discount Electronics (currently using an oooold dell from there) and buy a Smooth Stepper to interface without the parallel port. Obviously, it's more ideal to not have to spend any money. 

Thoughts?

JTD

[Danny Miller]

PCI parallel port cards are ok if you don't have a parallel port on the motherboard.  Just not USB/parallel port bridges.

The SmoothStepper USB was a flawed product (very vulnerable to EMI-induced latchups), the SmoothStepper Ethernet should be good though.

Danny

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[Jerry Rutherford]

I have used Luinix CNC (Formerly EMC2) with no problems at all. I connect Geckodrives to the parallel port along with the limit/home switches and in some cases an AUX for coolant, and/or a motor start.

I like it because you put the DC in, tell it to install, and configure the port... done.

Jerry

Askjerry... everyone else does.
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[Riley]

They're still supporting it, just not for free. The updates will find their way to the usual cough-torrent-cough locations.

To freeze a working config and stop wondering if a update will break things (sp2, aaaaaaaagh!) consider this scenario.

It's fairly easy to run Linux under virtual machines even on older hardware. So set up the xp cnc system with local network access, no internet access, and run linux in a VM (like virtualbox) with internet access.

XP can access local sources, Linux can safely surf / source / send files as needed. If the VM becomes infested, maybe by a pointy haired link clicking dibert type boss, xp is still fine.

-
Riley

[Jerry Rutherford]

Bad.

Running virtual machines installs another layer between software and physical layer which may induce latency and therefore inaccuracy.

[Riley]

Don't run xp in the virtual machine, run Linux in the virtual machine running under xp

So to recap, working xp CNC setup kept intact in perpetuity. No update issues or upgrade requirements. It ain't broke so don't Futz with it.

Disable XP internet access

Install a VM under xp, give it's network adapter internet access, run Linux / Firefox / chrome / etc with auto updates enabled. Even if the vm became infested the original xp CNC setup remains untouched and functional



-
Riley

[Jerry Rutherford]

Is your CAM running Luinix? I.E. the program that actually controls the machine? Whatever THAT program is... do NOT run it in VM.

Whatever software you use for machine control... it has to be on the physical layer... or you could get latency issues. If you are using MACH-3 then the XP must me on the physical layer, and you can run whatever you want on the VM. If you are running Luinix CNC... then it has to be a Luinix box and you can run your CAD programs in VM.

Askjerry... everyone else does.
Visit me online at http://askjerry.info
See my projects, video links, tutorials, and blog today.

[John Dolecek]

I appreciate the linux suggestions and am considering this for future machines, but this machine is already being used for production and has a Mach3 license. I don't use the computer for anything else, but as I said, I want to have it connected to the shop lan. 

If it's behind a firewall and not used for surfing/other programs, is it secure (enough)?

John

[Jerry Rutherford]

Yes... if you have an XP machine running Mach-3... and it's not using a browser to go on the internet... you should be fine. I was using DECKNC for awhile... my shop had a LAN setup... so I would draw up something on my CAD machine, then save it on the WELLS C:\ drive. Then walk over to WELLS and run the job. Never had any issues... running Windows 98 at the time. Had another machine for internet surfing... it got hosed all the time... so I flat-lined it and installed Luinix booting from a CD.

People would hit some nasty site, we would re-boot, good as new. As long as you don't open a browser and hit the 'net... should be ok.

Askjerry... everyone else does.
Visit me online at http://askjerry.info
See my projects, video links, tutorials, and blog today.

[Ardie Scott Powell]

Is there a way to lock out browser access?  Just to prevent someone from (accidentally, of course) hosing the machine?

[Riley]

Maybe, maybe not. When something else behind the firewall (or the firewall/router itself) is compromised it can infect the xp box


Here's an example config to use


Take an working CNC machine running xp, unplug the network cable

Connect a USB network adapter but do not install/enable xp drivers for it

Install virtualbox, give the VM control of the usb network adapter and set it to boot Linux from a livecd iso.


The CNC sw will continue to work normally, no updates, infestations or new issues. Even using virtualbox while the CNC sw is running shouldn't cause problems, if it does then don't do that :-\




To network files or surf:

Launch virtualbox to boot the livcd image, save files to thumbdrive/xp-virtualbox-share/wherever, enjoy


XP will not be networked (unplugged cable, no USB nw adapter drivers)

Linux from a livecd is much more secure than XP will ever be

The VM provides another layer of isolation. Even if the livecd environment was deliberately infested it still couldn't touch xp on the physical hardware.

[Jeffrey Cicolani]

Depending on the age and the specs of the machine, you may want to look at simply upgrading the OS to Win7. I have a 6-7 year old laptop that is running on 7 just fine. Win7 is a direct child of XP. After the Vista debacle, MS went back and, using XP as the base, rebuilt their OS. If you turn off all the animations and disable some of the other features, you're essentially running XP.

Jeffrey Cicolani
See my most recent geekiness at www.cicolanistudios.com

"Power to the people powerful enough to crush the other people" Joss Whedon

"Always be yourself... unless you suck." Joss Whedon

[Clio Dunn]

I'd go with taking those computers off the internet, if they aren't already. You can keep them on the LAN for access to the Public "folder" with member's individual folders. This is dead easy and will prevent any compatibility issues that changing to Windows 7 may cause. There's no reason for computers dedicated to machine use (such as CNC mill) to be on the internet anyway.

[SteveBaker]

I've gotta say, running "hard realtime" tasks on a general-purpose operating system (be it Linux, Windows, MacOS or whatever) is just asking for trouble...especially if it ties you to   obsolete hardware like parallel ports and unsupported software like WinXP.  The OS may choose to steal your timeslice for whatever reason at any time - and then you miss whatever timing you're trying to get right...so no matter how careful you are to dumb down your PC, there is always a risk of a perfect storm of interrupts that'll take away time from your app when it's in some critical part of the code.

It's *FAR* better to remove the hard-realtime tasks (things that are timing-critical like running stepper motors or timing servos) into a microcontroller.  You can buy a complete Arduino "Mini-Micro" board for $7 these days - complete with USB and enough TTL signals to emulate a parallel port - and then some.   Then, your controlling PC can be doing anything you fancy while the CNC machine is running without having to worry about shutting off tasks, disconnecting from the net, etc.

Better still, this gives you a nice modern USB connection - so you don't have to worry that you can't find a PC with a parallel port on it anymore.

My two laser cutters now have "BeagleBone" boards as well as the Arduino - so the high level code runs on the embedded Linux machine - and all you have to do is send it files over WiFi or wired ethernet from any browser on any kind of device.   If I want to, I can even drive both of my laser cutters from my phone nowadays...which turns out to be kinda handy when I'm calibrating them and the phone works as a hand-held remote!

These tiny systems are so cheap now that it's much simpler to partition the problem into specialist hardware than to try to make a general-purpose machine do all of the work.

  -- Steve

[Jerry Rutherford]

Yes, running a RISC vs a PC operating system is much better. Laguna went this route... it has the Richauto A11 controller.
http://www.richnc.com.cn/en/products.aspx

Here is the direct link to the PDF manual: http://www.newtopcnc.com/pdf/139_0.pdf

It works, and it works well... but the limitation is that it can ONLY read a 256MB USB Thumb-drive. Larger than that and it fails.

You can get a 256MB drive on Amazon...
http://smile.amazon.com/s/ref=a9_sc_1?rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Athumb+drive+256mb&keywords=thumb+drive+256mb&ie=UTF8&qid=1397409905

We have had no issues with it... although I prefer a PC controller because you have a graphics display, can change feed rates on-the-fly, etc. There are newer A5x controllers which seem to support this... but I have no experience with them.

Jerry

Askjerry... everyone else does.
Visit me online at http://askjerry.info
See my projects, video links, tutorials, and blog today.

--

[Jerry Rutherford]

It looks like the Richauto A11 version is $288 to $300, I sent in a direct request to see the pricing difference for the A11 and A51 which has the color graphics display. These controllers have been out there for awhile... and have become an industry standard on smaller systems... there are tens of thousands of them in the field.

There is also another version which supports 4-axis and one for 2-axis (lathe) use.

Jerry

Askjerry... everyone else does.
Visit me online at http://askjerry.info
See my projects, video links, tutorials, and blog today.

[Matt Lawrence]

I have a single WinXP machine at home mainly for talking to my iPhone and when I go back to school, doing the homework that I can't do on Linux.  So, I'm lookingfor the most cost effective way to upgrade to Win7. Suggestions?

-- Matt

[Danny Miller]

Running true, open CNC G-code is FAR more intensive than 8-bit Arduino
can handle.

With a greatly reduced, standardized task on specific hardware like a
laser cutter or 3d printer, it can do fine.

But true, open-use G-code's requirements are multiple orders of
magnitude higher. The list of things an 8-bit controller couldn't
implement properly is longer than the list of what it CAN do.

Equally significant, the concept of loading G-code into a noninteractive
box and letting it run just isn't regarded as suitable for most
milling/routing applications. Too often things need to be changed
mid-run and when the whole solution was to load it onto a box and let it
run, that's just not very practical.

Danny

[Steve Baker]

I'm not saying that the interface should be G-code or that there should be
no higher level monitoring running elsewhere.

The fundamental low level hardware is only capable of a very few
timing-critical operations - those can be handled on an Arduino and your
PC (or whatever) can break down the G-code into lower level operations
that the embedded controller can handle.

Streaming G-code into that controller means that it doesn't need much
storage - and if the command buffer dries up, the Arduino could contain
simple methods to make the machine safe until more commands arrive.

Similarly, the requirement that there be a real-time graphical display or
some kind of human interaction can be handled without requiring something
like that to be driven by the embedded system.

-- Steve

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-- Steve