Re: Valentine's Day Challenge Finalists (Vote for one please)

[doubleV]

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:45:50 -0500, Will Dockery wrote:

> My vote goes for your Aberdeen poem, H.:
>
> "It always rains in Aberdeen"
>
> I liked this one a decade ago, and find I like it better now.
>
> And the criticism from Chandra P. Das back in 2003 that it was "riddled
> with cliche" was disproven, I assume?

ahh the cliched piece is gonna win
I vote for rain in aberdeen too, for its accesibility
"dragon's breath" does it for me

[George Dance]

On Feb 14, 6:34 am, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:
> A Dubliner of Cathay
> --------------------
>
> "What have we heard, what?" quoth whatever porpoise-
> inspected pool drowned Madam Prevaricose
> up to her leopard. Call me a footman's surface
> and track for an houryear brushyold garden hose
>
> for Czars in arbs; but sure Rafe Peasman knows
> what's clutchwelt in my hand, my singular harvest
> and skys ablunt. Nods Kong-zi, Gangridge blows
> froth off bloodborrow porridge. No left-hovers.
>
> Fucked if I'll stand and fight th' Hectorian Hero
> nor wash Ma's windows, bugger-all up my betting,
> travel again to the wall and the secret empire.
>
> I'll tell, yeauld love, no more without an umpire
> to mash my teaks, bundle down pleuks with a biro;
> and none, no none of the talks are fresh nor fitting.
>
> Peter J. Ross

>
> It always rains in Aberdeen
>

> It always rains in Aberdeen. We don't
> take flight, my flock of rubber-booted
> geese, don't even look to see the clouds
> that cataract the sky.  Wet sidewalks end
>
> only when we reach the crosswalk
> and then
> I don't raise my eyes
> to catch the change of light
> just let the shoulders jostle me
> in time.
>
> If I dared to lift my face
> would you be there?
> Would it be the day of Bucksburn Faire?
>
> Or would I have to stand
> on Crenshaw's portico and lift my hand
> to tap a nervous tap to pipes
> that march the streets not far away.
>
> I can wait,
> I can stand the foot of circled stairs
> and stare;
> at the silver urn filled with dusty flowers
> or the pewter clock set in a dome
> or I can sit for tea
> and crackers made with stone ground rye
> while Mrs. Crenshaw hems and smiles.
>
> And would we tread the walk
> (like I tread now, just parts
> of something pinstriped; flannel)
> or would we duck through
> Flanders' yard,
> scrape through rotting slats of fence
> and mesh through the hedge?
>
> We could rise like the sun's reflection
> echoing off the rain's mist;
> ride dragon's breath into the sky;
> through fields of clouds
> that cover Auchmill Road
> and Castlegate
>
> pretend a love for clocks
> down on Market Street
> doesn't portend our fall
> and leave us
> languishing like the gray mists
> haunting up from endless puddles
> from the nameless drops of rain
> in Aberdeen.
>
> -H
>
> Spatial Relationships
>
>  My lover Kali has no eyes
>  but draws my face in glyphs
>  of synapse -
>  arms outstretched
>  and tipped with fingers dripped in char
>  she grasps the canvass
>  in bunched waves -
>  futile strokes of burnt umber
>  like she's drowning, grasping waves of sea.
>
>  I cannot give her light
>  or tell her why,
>  as she leans her sightless
>  eyes toward me,
>  a flower pressing to the coolness of the earth,
>  I pull away.
>
> -H
>
> * Disconnexion *
>
> So many kisses left
> on the station steps. /"Un beso
> 
y te dejo."/ Kisses scattered /en la boca
> del metro. "Te amo." "Te llamo."/ Phones
> snap shut and heels trip down
> to waiting platforms. There's no
> signal in the underground, no
> 
tunnel-of-love buried, burrowing
> underneath the city; only the stop-start
> of red lights.
>        Emerging into sunshine,
> the scent of /azahar/, the thrill and trill
> of missed messages.
>
> -g
>
> Please only vote for 1.  The winner will receive this $10 gift card (already purchased) to the wonderful cheesecake factory.  Contestants please don't vote for yourselves, it it just bad manners.
>
> Regards
> -H
>
> (If I missed an entry please point me in the correct direction)

What happened to Rule 2? The only one that seems even remotely about
love is Spatial Relationships, so I guess I'll vote for that; but I
have to question what the other 3 finalists are doing here, when you
disqualified so many others.

[George Dance]

On Feb 14, 6:44 pm, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:

> Which one of these is /not/ about love?
>
> Regards
> -H

[George Dance]

On Feb 14, 6:59 pm, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:

> Well, maybe it is my poor reading skills but I read a poem about unrequited love, 1 about fondly missing a lover while travelling and a poem about missing one's first love.
>
> You?
> Regards
> -H

Only because you asked (since it wasn't my intention to turn your
voting thread into a debate), I read (in reverse order, and omitting
SR of course):

An piece about people in a railway station, presumably by an observer,
with no sign of emotional involvement

A poem ostensibly about the weather, actually about the speaker's own
nostalgia or other moodiness

A word-salad about nothing at all.

[Will Dockery]

On Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:34:05 AM UTC-5, qwerty...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Please only vote for 1. The winner will receive this $10 gift card (already purchased) to the wonderful cheesecake factory. Contestants please don't vote for yourselves, it it just bad manners.

I voted for "Aberdeen", but I wonder who selected the finalists, H?

I assume you did, and included two of your own poems... isn't that a bit like "voting for yourself"?

[Will Dockery]

That does sort of seem cliched, doesn't it?

> We could rise like mists of rain;

> ride dragon's breath into the sky;
> through fields of clouds
> that cover Auchmill Road
> and Castlegate
>

"Ok, enough for me. 'fields of cloud' -- gawd! Actually 'ride dragon's
breath into the sky' is not bad, but the preceeding image of 'rising
like mists'(which is a horrid cliche), dilutes its impact to nothing."
-Chandra Das

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Y7txg90Z-CU/ACAD3I_rIvQJ

[doubleV]

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 14:02:06 -0800, qwertyh123456 wrote:

> On Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:34:05 AM UTC-5, qwerty...@gmail.com
> wrote:

>> A Dubliner of Cathay
>>
>> --------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> "What have we heard, what?" quoth whatever porpoise-
>>
>> inspected pool drowned Madam Prevaricose
>>
>> up to her leopard. Call me a footman's surface
>>
>> and track for an houryear brushyold garden hose
>>
>>
>>
>> for Czars in arbs; but sure Rafe Peasman knows
>>
>> what's clutchwelt in my hand, my singular harvest
>>
>> and skys ablunt. Nods Kong-zi, Gangridge blows
>>
>> froth off bloodborrow porridge. No left-hovers.
>>
>>
>>
>> Fucked if I'll stand and fight th' Hectorian Hero
>>
>> nor wash Ma's windows, bugger-all up my betting,
>>
>> travel again to the wall and the secret empire.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'll tell, yeauld love, no more without an umpire
>>
>> to mash my teaks, bundle down pleuks with a biro;
>>
>> and none, no none of the talks are fresh nor fitting.
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter J. Ross
>>
>>
>>

>> It always rains in Aberdeen
>>
>>
>>

>> ride dragon's breath into the sky;
>>
>> through fields of clouds
>>
>> that cover Auchmill Road
>>
>> and Castlegate
>>
>>
>>

>> Please only vote for 1. The winner will receive this $10 gift card
>> (already purchased) to the wonderful cheesecake factory. Contestants
>> please don't vote for yourselves, it it just bad manners.
>>
>>
>>

>> Regards
>>
>> -H
>>
>>
>>
>> (If I missed an entry please point me in the correct direction)
>

> Well, the results are in and it is a tie!!!
>
> Being the food sport I am, I will pass the prize on to Peter J. Ross for
> his excellent poem "A Dubliner of Cathay"
>
> Peter please send me your address in e-mail and i will post your gift
> card as soon as circumstances permit.
>
> Congratulations to all and i hope everyone enjoyed our celebration of
> the holiday!!
>
> Regards -H

SCREW THAT, WE WANT A SHOWDOWN. You have to use the word hope, it has to
be by the author, and can't use any cliche's

[Will Dockery]

Peter J Ross wrote:
>
> He's an occasional plagiarist

That would be libel if you'd spelled my name right, liar.

Let's see you post proof for this lie or s.t.f.u?

--
Music & poetry from Will Dockery & The Shadowville All-Stars:
http://www.reverbnation.com/willdockery

[Will Dockery]

Peter J Ross wrote:
>
> I detect a similar whine

<lies snipped>

Not at all, in fact I was one of the few (only?) person to give Horatio's poem a favorable critique, a decade ago:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/XpPEhjCLT3o/iMxqrSoxPtYJ

Message-ID: <4db75780-82f8-45c3...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: It Always Rains in Aberdeen / 2003 Revisited
From: Will Dockery
Injection-Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 05:01:46 +0000

> We could rise like mists of rain;

>
> ride dragon's breath into the sky;
>
> through fields of clouds
>
> that cover Auchmill Road
>
> and Castlegate
>
> pretend a love for clocks
>
> down on Market Street
>
> doesn't portend our fall
>
> and leave us
>
> languishing like the gray mists
>
> haunting up from endless puddles
>
> from the nameless drops of rain
>
> in Aberdeen.
>
> -H

Ten years ago, part of what I thought of your poem went:

https://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/msg/e306d8a3aee6c5a7?dmode=source&output=gplain&noredirect

"For some reason or another, your poem keeps making me think of and
remember John Cale's "Vintage Violence" album. I haven't heard it in
about 20 years, but reading your poem the first time, memories of a
couple of melodies from that crept into my mind, and it just happened
again. It was a great set of songs, so thanks for helping bring 'em
back to me!" -Will Dockery (Date: 20 Aug 2003 04:26:54 -0700)

Ten years later, I still haven't gotten back to much John Cale, and sure not Vintage Violence, but still remember it well, or the vivid parts, the nice piano opening, but I assume it was the /lyrics/ your poem reminded me of...

And the first words on the record are...

http://lyrics.wikia.com/John_Cale:Hello,_There

"...Hooked up on a fishing line
Looking for the break of day
I've never been here before anyway
It's the wine in my feet that's to blame
Settled down in the mud, giving everybody blood
It's not such a beautiful thing to do
Left the castle in Spain in an ambulance all the way
Could it be that the clock's really stopped?" (John Cale)

I note that your rhythm os very similar, as are the images in many ways, at least superficially:

> > > We could rise like mists of rain;

> > > ride dragon's breath into the sky;
> > > through fields of clouds
> > > that cover Auchmill Road
> > > and Castlegate

Clocks:

> > > pretend the great clock
> > > down on Market Street
> > > doesn't umber our fall

John Cale:

"Left the castle in Spain in an ambulance all the way
Could it be that the clock's really stopped?"

Wet sidewalks, rain / "Settled down in the mud, giving everybody blood"

And, maybe... maybe I was smoking some weed and "Aberdeen" also simply had the ring of another far away place, John Cale's vision of Adelaide, maybe. After ten years without a thought, I just now wonder:

http://lyrics.wikia.com/John_Cale:Adelaide

"...I want to go home, I want to go home
I want to go back to Adelaide
It' s time for a change, don't want to be late
It's probably night in Adelaide." -John Cale

There's a few more things but it suddenly got late here, 'round midnight, so I have to run for a while... will get back to this when time permits.

We've yet to discuss... Miss Alice Crenshaw.

[Will Dockery]

Peter J Ross wrote:
>
> The discomfiture of
>
> the thieves

Oh, Michael Cook has returned?

I hadn't noticed...

[George Dance]

Or, at minimum, a runoff vote between the poems that tied for first
place.

However, it's better that way. It may have looked suspicious to some
when qwerty disqualified all efforts but those by ~PJ~ and his meat
puppet, and raised some doubts in some minds; but he did have the
reason of a rule, subjective as that rule was. To have him then simply
award first prize to ~PJ~, though, looks sufficient to dispel any
lingering doubt.

[George Dance]

On Feb 15, 7:04 am, Peter J Ross <p...@example.invalid> wrote:

>
> I thought a plain English translation might be useful.
>

A plain English translation of your "poem" would indeed be useful for
the reader. It might not be so useful for you, though, as it could
make it clearer to all that you(1) had nothing to say and (2) said
just that.

(Now, run along and tell Google that I "infringed your copyright"
again.)

[Will Dockery]

True, seems like a runoff would have been more interesting.

[Will Dockery]

On Friday, February 15, 2013 7:22:48 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
> On Feb 15, 7:04 am, Peter J Ross <p...@example.invalid> wrote:
>
> > I thought a plain English translation might be useful.
>
> A plain English translation of your "poem" would indeed be useful for
>
> the reader. It might not be so useful for you, though, as it could
>
> make it clearer to all that you(1) had nothing to say and (2) said
>
> just that.

Did anyone, Horatio, for instance, since this was his contest, explain what the garbageverse by PJR had to do with love?

[Will Dockery]

Peter J Ross wrote:
>
> I've translated

Perhaps you could provide translation of such garbage gibberish as:

"I'll tell, yeauld love, no more without an umpire

to mash my teaks, bundle down pleuks with a biro..."

Read more of PJR's junkverse at:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/gZPIYwvIl68/GtCxF4fejJUJ

[George Dance]

On Feb 15, 4:56 pm, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:

> >https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Y7txg90Z-CU/...
>
> The reader will note that even though I was not familiar with the one cliche someone pointed out I rewrote that section on the off chance.
>
> Regards
> -H

Actually, the quote "points out" three cliches. I'm not pointing that
out because I agree with it, of course. I'm pointing it out because I
don't agree, and I don't think any other readers agree, either, and
therefore I think it's a good example of how subjective, and
idiosyncratic, the judgement of "cliche" is.

[Will Dockery]

Good point.

[George Dance]

On Feb 15, 7:28 pm, Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, February 15, 2013 7:22:48 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
> > On Feb 15, 7:04 am, Peter J Ross <p...@example.invalid> wrote:
>
> > > I thought a plain English translation might be useful.
>
> > A plain English translation of your "poem" would indeed be useful for
>
> > the reader. It might not be so useful for you, though, as it could
>
> > make it clearer to all that you(1) had nothing to say and (2) said
>
> > just that.
>
> Did anyone, Horatio, for instance, since this was his contest, explain what the garbageverse by PJR had to do with love?
>

Yes; he told me he read it as "a poem about unrequited love".

[George Dance]

On Feb 15, 9:01 pm, Peter J Ross <p...@example.invalid> wrote:
> In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Fri, 15 Feb 2013 16:22:48 -0800 (PST),

> You're not quite right in the head, are you?
>

Is IKYABWAI really the best you can do, nutty PJ?

[Will Dockery]

Peter J Ross wrote:
>
> You're not quite right in the head, are you?
>

> Were you dropped on it as a baby, or did decent people punch it
>
> frequently during your laughably unsuccessful career as a right-wing
>
> political extremist?

He probably just wishes your writing made sense.

[Will Dockery]

On Saturday, February 16, 2013 5:04:38 AM UTC-5, qwerty...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I am surprised and a little disappointed to be reading this after I was so clear and gave everyone chances at multiple entries. This is a /comments/ group and yet no one decided to say "no, H, you are wrong 'pounding passions' is not cliche or 'I have never heard of tits referred to as peaches before even though it was in a top 10 pop song'"

Bingo, I get it now!

I see suddenly exactly what you're talking about, /and/ your very good reason for taking my poem out of the contest, the "peaches" cliche, which is even /more/ of a cliche being here in the Deep South.

I'll rethink that verse and get rid of the "peaches".

So, if I had spotted that obvious cliche sooner and managed to have changed that to something original, would the poem have passed, or do you spot any other cliches (et cetera) that I could now work on?

If you have any time to have a look:

Miss Alice Crenshaw

Little Victoria
stepped on a bumblebee,
near the sawmill millhouse.

Cousin Maxwell
saw it while sitting in a tree,
on the hill
across from Uncle Grouse.

Near the house of
Bullethead & Shorty...
Always late, never home,
they's a fighting,
they'll get home the best they can.
With some luck and
a Southern wind.

Shorty's chasing Bullethead
with a frying pan
full of chicken bones.

Jerked wire
someone tried to call the cops
on the telephone.

Sort of in the backyard
of the old waterpump house.
Near the canepatch,
Miss Crenshaw's creeping like a mouse.

She said some odd words,
seen them spit right out her mouth.

Everybody's watching television,
or Miss Crenshaw's hipshake.
She's a stroller in technicolor
up and down a dirt avenue
for goodness sake.

If you need a girl
you can converse on love with...
She's a good listener
and she ain't quite loud!
But a looker in a crowd.

On a two stooler bike,
somebody easing down the path.

Near the house of
Bullethead & Shorty...
Working late at the mill again.
Scoop the sugar with cabbage,
wash it down with cold gin.

Never sure when the morning starts
or where it ends.

I recall a bit later,
when she shook her peaches for me.
Shady silver leaf maples,
and a lonesome persimmon tree.

Full moon and hay fever
schoolhouse looking like a Sphinx.
She's a sweetie,
her hair's like a chestnut minx.

Everybody's watching television,
or Miss Crenshaw's hipshake.
She's a stroller
up and down a dirt avenue.

If you need a girl
you can converse on love with...
She's a good listener
and she ain't quite loud!
But a looker in a crowd.

-Will Dockery

[Will Dockery]

On Saturday, February 16, 2013 4:55:11 AM UTC-5, qwerty...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 15, 2013 8:02:38 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:

>> On Feb 15, 7:28 pm, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > > Did anyone, Horatio, for instance, since this was his contest, explain what the garbageverse by PJR had to do with love?
>
> > Yes; he told me he read it as "a poem about unrequited love".
>

> That was "Disconexxion"

Okay, so what did PJR's junkverse have to do with "love"?

[Will Dockery]

On Saturday, February 16, 2013 9:53:22 AM UTC-5, Hieronymous House wrote:
> Will Dockery

> When words pop crisply off a page when juxtaposed to one another like that, no matter what they say, you can tell the author just loved writing it.

Okay, I can dig that.

[Will Dockery]

On Saturday, February 16, 2013 4:58:50 AM UTC-5, qwerty...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Friday, February 15, 2013 7:42:28 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
>
> > Actually, the quote "points out" three cliches. I'm not pointing that
>
> >
>
> > out because I agree with it, of course. I'm pointing it out because I
>
> >
>
> > don't agree, and I don't think any other readers agree, either, and
>
> >
>
> > therefore I think it's a good example of how subjective, and
>
> >
>
> > idiosyncratic, the judgement of "cliche" is.
>

> You would have had to read the whole post, he was referring to one in particular.
>
> It has been my experience that cliche is rarely in doubt. Either you came up with an original concept and wrote about it or you did not. If someone else wrote about it first (we are talking analogies here, obviously anyone can write about a heart referring to the organ and be literal, but if it refers to love it is a horrid cliche) then it is NOT original and therefore ABHORRENT to writers and most readers.

How do you feel that Homage fits in on this?

[George Dance]

On Feb 16, 4:58 am, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 15, 2013 7:42:28 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:

> You would have had to read the whole post, he was referring to one in particular.
>
> It has been my experience that cliche is rarely in doubt.

My experience has been the opposite; and the following is more of the
same. You seem to be defining a cliche as any concept that is not
original; and that is certainly not the definition that I would use.

Either you came up with an original concept and wrote about it or you
did not.  If someone else wrote about it first (we are talking
analogies here, obviously anyone can write about a heart referring to
the organ and be literal, but if it refers to love it is a horrid
cliche) then it is NOT original and therefore ABHORRENT to writers and
most readers.
>

I think I understand your belief. As T.S. Eliot said about it,

"One of the facts that might come to light ... is our tendency to
insist, when we praise a poet, upon those aspects of his work in which
he least resembles anyone else. In these aspects or parts of his work
we pretend to find what is individual, what is the peculiar essence of
the man. We dwell with satisfaction upon the poet’s difference from
his predecessors, especially his immediate predecessors; we endeavour
to find something that can be isolated in order to be enjoyed. Whereas
if we approach a poet without this prejudice we shall often find that
not only the best, but the most individual parts of his work may be
those in which the dead poets, his ancestors, assert their immortality
most vigorously."

Then again, you may not consider Eliot a real writer like you.

[Will Dockery]

You have a great point there, George.

Eliot used all manner of homage, allusion, event outright borrowing and transformative use all through his poetry.

[Will Dockery]

On Saturday, February 16, 2013 2:31:38 PM UTC-5, qwerty...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 16, 2013 1:46:38 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > T. S. Eliot used all manner of homage, allusion, event outright borrowing and transformative use all through his poetry.
>
> I challenge you to find a cliche in Eliot's body of work.

Note that I didn't mention cliche in the list, but this fellow does:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1208634?uid=3739656&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101820536977

[Will Dockery]

qwerty wrote:
>
> Probably not, but feel free to include an interesting Eliot quote that supports one of my other beliefs:

Here's just a good one from Eliot I came across during my looking about for "T. S. Eliot" + "cliche":

"Poetry is not an expression of personality, it is an escape from personality; it not an outpouring of emotion, it is a suppression of emotion–but of of course, only those who have personality and emotions can ever know what it means to want to get away from these things."

–T.S. Eliot

[George Dance]

On Feb 16, 2:29 pm, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:

> No, I define cliche as cliche:  trite, boring, not original, overdone.

That's a bit better, but it gets us right back into the subjectivity I
previously commented on.

> I continue to explain why this is /bad/ in writing, a concept you seem to struggle with.

On the contrary, using the definition you've spelled out makes it into
a tautology: "trite" and "boring" writing" is "bad" writing by
definition. But "trite" and "boring" are bad writing by definition.


> <snip>

>
> > Then again, you may not consider Eliot a real writer like you.
>

> I don't consider myself a writer at all and I consider Eliot dead so also not a writer.
>
> Regards
> -H

[doubleV]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 02:04:38 -0800, qwertyh123456 wrote:

> On Friday, February 15, 2013 7:10:06 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
>> On Feb 15, 5:19 pm, doubleV <rawsto...@localnet.com> wrote:
>>

>> > On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 14:02:06 -0800, qwertyh123456 wrote:
>>
>> > > On Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:34:05 AM UTC-5,
>> > > qwerty...@gmail.com
>>
> <snip>
> <snip>
> Why is it so difficult for poets to have enough original thoughts to
> write a poem?
>

So what's the harm in having a final challenge to break the tie with the
same rules or something, eh?

-regards

[Will Dockery]

Seems like a a vote on the tied entries would have been a logical next move, but this was Horatio's contest so he made the call he wanted.

[George Dance]

On Feb 16, 2:31 pm, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:

> I challenge you to find a cliche in Eliot's body of work.
>

> Regards
> -H

Well, let's see. According to you, every line of every "pop song" is a
cliche; so how about
"Good night, ladies, good night, sweet ladies, good night, good night."

[George Dance]

On Feb 16, 7:16 pm, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:

> Exactly.
>
> Regards
> -H
>

But if "cliche" means "trite" and "boring" by definition, it can't
also mean 'unoriginal" by definition, since not every 'unoriginal'
line is trite or boring - so if you're going to define cliche as the
one, you can't define it as the other, too.

[George Dance]

On Feb 16, 9:15 pm, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:

> all cliches are unoriginal not all unoriginal is cliche.

Great; now we're getting somewhere.

Think of it like this:  You know all  apples are fruits right?  Yet
not every fruit is an apple.

Yep.

There are lots of places you can use this.

> Regards
> -H

[George Dance]

On Feb 16, 9:56 pm, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 16, 2013 9:19:43 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
>

Now that we've disposed of the "cliche" issue (which I think was
getting in the way of a real conversation, I think we can make more
progress. So I've snipped the whole of the backthread.

> All unoriginal is bad though.

OK; I'd agree that all unoriginal can be bad, and all from one source
is very likely to be bad; but all original can be bad, too. It's
important to say something different from what's been said before, but
if it's so different that no one can understand or relate to it -
"private language" poetry - then it's really no good, either.

> If you didn't write it, why include it in your writing?

You didn't invent the words you use for your poetry, so why include
them in your writing? The answer is the same, really: everything we
have in our heads, from words to phrases to images, has come in from
the outside. Your writing, and mine, consists of other people's
writing, mixed up in new combinations, but all of it borrowed
nevertheless. Language is shared; the only choice one has is to
participate in the process consciously or unconsciously.

> Anyway, poetry is too short to include unoriginal phrasing.  Every word should be examined to produce the most powerful effect, the most original images.

I agree that "every word should be examined to produce the most
powerful effect". But the most powerful effect is not always the
original image. In most poems I've read a poet has at least one
powerful original image -- for me that's usually the impetus for the
poem in the first place -- but if the poem is more than three lines,
one image isn't going to be enough to sustain it. So he has to
scrabble around for other images, and it's doubtful that the images he
thinks of are going to be more vivid than the images he finds.

Here's an example: It looks to me that the poet began with one image
-- the title, and the last line -- but the most powerful line here is
the one that's clearly borrowed.

The Flute of Spring

I know a shining meadow stream
That winds beneath an Eastern hill,
And all year long in sun or gloom
Its murmuring voice is never still.

[...]

And there when lengthening twilights fall
As softly as a wild bird's wing,
Across the valley in the dusk
I hear the silver flute of spring.

---
Bliss Carman

http://gdancesbetty.blogspot.ca/2010/05/flute-of-spring-bliss-carman.html

[George Dance]

On Feb 17, 1:46 pm, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Sunday, February 17, 2013 12:57:05 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
> > On Feb 16, 9:56 pm, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Saturday, February 16, 2013 9:19:43 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
>
> > Here's an example: It looks to me that the poet began with one image
>
> > -- the title, and the last line -- but the most powerful line here is
>
> > the one that's clearly borrowed.
>

> A "Flute of Spring"  is an image?

It certainly calls up an image in my mind. But maybe you think an
"image" is something else.

> This is why there can never be a discussion.

I didn't really think you were interested in discussion.

> You need to study.

I'm willing to "study" what you think an image is. What do you think
an image is?

>
> You need to read.
>

I'm willing to "read" what you think an image is. What do you think an
image is?

> You need to learn.
>

I'm willing to "learn" what you think an image is. What do you think
an image is?

> First.
>

[George Dance]

On Feb 16, 4:55 am, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, February 15, 2013 8:02:38 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:

> > On Feb 15, 7:28 pm, Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Friday, February 15, 2013 7:22:48 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 15, 7:04 am, Peter J Ross <p...@example.invalid> wrote:
>
> > > > > I thought a plain English translation might be useful.
>
> > > > A plain English translation of your "poem" would indeed be useful for
>
> > > > the reader. It might not be so useful for you, though, as it could
>
> > > > make it clearer to all that you(1) had nothing to say and (2) said
>
> > > > just that.

>
> > > Did anyone, Horatio, for instance, since this was his contest, explain what the garbageverse by PJR had to do with love?
>
> > Yes; he told me he read it as "a poem about unrequited love".
>
> That was "Disconexxion"
>

> Regards
> -H
>

Oh, really? I thought that "Disconnexions" was about "fondly missing a
lover while travelling".

So is this one about "fondly missing a lover while travelling", or
"about missing one's first love".

[George Dance]

On Feb 17, 3:19 pm, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:

> It always rains in Aberdeen is a poem about a gentleman pining for their first love.
>
> I should feel ashamed to have to spell it out as the author but in my defense I made it pretty obvious.
>
> Even included some symbolism and stuff.
>
> Regards
> -H

I thought that was the one you meant, but I didn't want to say so
without asking (having been wrong once, about one that looked just as
obvious).

So, by process of elimination, "A Dubliner of Cathay" is about "fondly

[George Dance]

On Feb 17, 3:28 pm, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:

> I am really not a teacher but here goes nothing:
>
> In writing, to make this exercise as simple as possible, consider an image to be the /opposite/ of an abstraction. This isn't axiomatic but it might help you get started.
>
> The worst abstractions tend to be when a writer "fills" their concrete "item" with an abstraction.
>
> "buckets of love"
> "horns of plenty"
> "Lake of sunshine"
> "saucer of hope"

> Flute of Spring.

"dim lands of peace. It dulls the image. It mixes an abstraction with
the ocncrete. It comes from the writer's not realizing that the
natural object is always the *adequate* symbol."

That's the 100-year-old insight that whoever taught you the above was
parroting. Notice that EP does not insist that the image ceases to be
one because of the abstraction; just that mixing the two dulls the
image. (One could also argue that it sharpens the abstraction, but of
course EP would advise to get rid of the abstraction entirely, as the
dim lands would make a reader think of peace automatically, or the
word "flute" would make a reader think of "spring").

But enough of that. If you want to write, or read stuff that's
written, as if it were 1913, that's your business. And maybe it's
correct; maybe if Carman had left "Flute of Spring" as the major image
in his poem, it would have been be completely forgettable and
forgotten. That fits in completely with what I was saying.

All this is just a distraction from the point I was making about the
poem: "the most powerful line here is the one that's clearly
borrowed."


> Regards
> -H
>
> (Who really misses Julie right about now)

Julie Carter? I can put you in touch with her, if you want.

[George Dance]

On Feb 17, 5:26 pm, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:

> You have a chinaman in Ireland, he is bound to yearn for his chinawomen back home.
>

What "chinawoman back home"? Where, in the whole bloody mess, is there
any mention of a "chinawoman", let alone any indication that this
purported "chinaman in Ireland" misses one?

[Will Dockery]

On Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:34:05 AM UTC-5, qwerty...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> "What have we heard, what?" quoth whatever porpoise-

<junk snip>

> to mash my teaks, bundle down pleuks with a biro;
>
> and none, no none of the talks are fresh nor fitting.

"Try to have your writing make sense." -Dennis M. Hammes

[Will Dockery]

George Dance wrote:
>
> What "chinawoman back home"? Where, in the whole bloody mess, is there
>
> any mention of a "chinawoman", let alone any indication that this
>
> purported "chinaman in Ireland" misses one?

Indeed, I've read the (drug addled?) piece of junkverse for maybe the tenth time now and I don't see it.

What I see is unreadable, coded, crap that is sure to repel almost any reader, except, apparently, Horatio and the writer himself... self indulgent navel gazing of the lowest order, basically.

[Will Dockery]

On Monday, February 18, 2013 4:27:42 AM UTC-5, Hieronymous House wrote:
> 4:09 AMWill Dockery

>
>
>
> ... self indulgent navel gazing of the lowest order, basically.
>
>
>

> Navel gazing, as you put it, is really nothing more than introspection. A little introspection is good for a person, as is self-indulgence. Indeed, we soothe and indulge ourselves by writing in he first place when instead we could just as well be either talking things out between us, or beating each other over the head with clubs.

Well put, no argument with any of that.

[George Dance]

"Porpoise" sounds like an allusion to the great Dale Houstman's opus,
"Sporking Through a Pile of Poo":

"Three petunias powdered!"
Screamed the sad Dauphin
On porpoise to his corpus
The body of Gauguin.

[George Dance]

On Feb 17, 4:34 pm, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:

> Flute of spring is not an image.

Once again, flute is definitely an image.

Perhaps you don't know what an image is. Here's a quote that may help
you:

"The imagery or images of a poem or a story, then, are the words in it
that create mental images through language that describes or convey
sensory details. Imagery is useful as it allows a reader to imagine
the details of the story or poem while reading it, and thereby gets
him or her involved in it."
http://pennyspoetry.wikia.com/wiki/Imagery

>
> Flute is an image.
>

Yes, it is. It creates an auditory image, for those who've heard a
flute.

> Flute of grass.  Flute of brass.  Flute of glass.

Those are just confused messes. You're mixing auditory and visual
images together. I can imagine a flute of brass, or glass (but
certainly not of grass), but I have no idea how either of them would
sound.

> Flute of sass?  no.  Flute of love?  Flute of hope?  Flute of enjoyment?  Flute of yearning? Flute of pain? Flute of dreams?

Most of those help me imagine the sound of a flute played different
ways. "Flute of enjoyment", for instance, makes me think of the
beginning of Ian Anderson's "Bouree"; "flute of anger" like parts of
his "Aqualung".

>
> Why are these not images??!!!  They are using words and flutes and stuff?
>

They're not images to you because you don't imagine anything by them,
and you think anyone who does imagine something by them is imagining
"wrong".

>
> Why can you not see something that is so easy?
>

Something that, indeed, was already critical cliche 50 years ago. What
makes you think that those


> I have no idea whatever else you were talking about with dim lands of something or other.
>

Sounds to me like you didn't read it, and you don't want to read it.
There's no other reason you can't remember the first four words,
especially when they're still in the backthread.

But it's no big deal: I was just showing you where your beliefs came
from (and that I understood them perfectly, since they're hardly
news), plus telling you that they were the change of subject.

> I don't know if anyone ever taught me that abstraction was bad

Yes, you have no idea where you picked up the belief that abstractions
were "bad". You probably learned it in high school poetry: it's been
the received wisdom since at least 1940.

> or if I just picked it up by reading good poetry

You really think that you just started reading things like "A Dubliner
in Cathay", decided all by yourself that they were really "good
poetry", and then figured out all by yourself that they were "good
poetry" because they didn't have any abstractions? Amazing.

> so the idea that someone was parroting one thing or another seems unlikely.

Since you don't understand, because you've never thought about, the
things you're saying, it's a good description of what you're doing, at
least. I can't say, because I don't know about the people who taught
you these things.

>
> Yes, she could explain abstractions to you.  I like to read.  And comment.  Teaching is for others.
>

"Comments" that aren't instructive are called trolling, and we have
quite enough that already. It's an alt list, so it's not my call
whether you stay or go; but if you're going to troll, then don't
expect me to treat you as anything else.

[Will Dockery]

Just on a very basic level, "Flute" gives me multiple images, silvery images, and the movements of the 'valves' I think they're called...

And actually, "Spring" gives me a grassy green, colorfull, etherial images, but it all depends on how much imagination and willingness to follow the poem, of course, as with any art.

> Perhaps you don't know what an image is. Here's a quote that may help
>
> you:
>
>
>
> "The imagery or images of a poem or a story, then, are the words in it
>
> that create mental images through language that describes or convey
>
> sensory details. Imagery is useful as it allows a reader to imagine
>
> the details of the story or poem while reading it, and thereby gets
>
> him or her involved in it."
>
> http://pennyspoetry.wikia.com/wiki/Imagery
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Flute is an image.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Yes, it is. It creates an auditory image, for those who've heard a
>
> flute.

That, too, and the flute sound of spring is that "bursting" of the music of birds, little creatures, the /green/ springing out.

> > Flute of grass.  Flute of brass.  Flute of glass.
>
>
>
> Those are just confused messes. You're mixing auditory and visual
>
> images together. I can imagine a flute of brass, or glass (but
>
> certainly not of grass), but I have no idea how either of them would
>
> sound.

That gives me a slightly odd, perhaps stoned or tripping images of a fluatist trying to creat a woodwind /reed/ sound with blades of grass.

Images are in the mind of the beholder as well as the poet.

> > Flute of sass?  no.  Flute of love?  Flute of hope?  Flute of enjoyment?  Flute of yearning? Flute of pain? Flute of dreams?
>
>
>
> Most of those help me imagine the sound of a flute played different
>
> ways. "Flute of enjoyment", for instance, makes me think of the
>
> beginning of Ian Anderson's "Bouree"; "flute of anger" like parts of
>
> his "Aqualung".

Absolutely, makes me wish my flautists friends Geno, John Joiner or the late Clyde Baker were here to comment on this effect, love that "blowing from a slight distance" effect. but have no idea what they'd call it.

> > Why are these not images??!!!  They are using words and flutes and stuff?
>
> They're not images to you because you don't imagine anything by them,
>
> and you think anyone who does imagine something by them is imagining
>
> "wrong".

Exactly... "art is subjective" still stands, and really always will when it come to poetry.

[Will Dockery]

On Monday, February 18, 2013 10:58:28 AM UTC-5, Hieronymous House wrote:
> 10:30 AMGeorge Dance
>
> - show quoted text -

>
> Once again, flute is definitely an image.
>

> Speaking of instrumental imagery, imagine the Horn of Plenty, the Horn of Africa, Cape Horn, the Horn of Good Hope, and Gabriel's Horn all rolled into one horny little toadstool sitting motherfucker like me. Okay, now I'm very sorry I made you do that. Now I can only imagine how horny you must think I am, like I don't ever get any. It's not that at all, believe me. It's who I get it from. I'm horny for a real Angel like you can only imagine.

"Around the Horn", old sailor slang the meaning I'll save for later:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Moby_Dick

""I'll chase him round Good Hope, and round the Horn, and round the Norway Maelstrom, and round perdition's flames before I give him up!" -Captain Ahab

[Will Dockery]

I'm a long-time Dale Houstman fan but I missed that one.

[George Dance]

https://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/msg/d62dca8839f0b918?hl=en

[George Dance]

On Feb 18, 4:38 pm, qwertyh123...@gmail.com wrote:

> This one thing you wrote is true, the rest is wrong.
>

Well, let's let everyone see what you insist is "wrong."

> <snip>

Nice try. But you don't get rid of it that easily.
<unsnip>

> > Something that, indeed, was already critical cliche 50 years ago. What makes you think I can't see it?

> > > I have no idea whatever else you were talking about with dim lands of something or other.

> > Sounds to me like you didn't read it, and you don't want to read it.
There's no other reason you can't remember the first four words,
especially when they're still in the backthread.
But it's no big deal: I was just showing you where your beliefs came
from (and that I understood them perfectly, since they're hardly
news), plus telling you that they were the change of subject.

> > > I don't know if anyone ever taught me that abstraction was bad

> > Yes, you have no idea where you picked up the belief that abstractions
were "bad". You probably learned it in high school poetry: it's been
the received wisdom since at least 1940.

> > > or if I just picked it up by reading good poetry

> > You really think that you just started reading things like "A Dubliner
in Cathay", decided all by yourself that they were really "good
poetry", and then figured out all by yourself that they were "good
poetry" because they didn't have any abstractions? Amazing.
> so the idea that someone was parroting one thing or another seems unlikely.

> > Since you don't understand, because you've never thought about, the
things you're saying, it's a good description of what you're doing,
at
least. I can't say, because I don't know about the people who taught
you these things.

</us>

> > "Comments" that aren't instructive are called trolling, and we have
>
> > quite enough that already. It's an alt list, so it's not my call
>
> > whether you stay or go; but if you're going to troll, then don't
>
> > expect me to treat you as anything else.
>

> You are especially wrong here.  This group is about comments.  I am not your teacher, go pay > for your education.
>
> As for me being a troll?  Why would I care if you think I am a troll.  You have nothing to
> offer that I could possibly miss.
>
> You plug your fingers in your ears and insist no one is speaking.

You know, I was going to use the same metaphor about you, when you
told me you didn't read what I'd written about Pound; but I thought it
was too cliched. I

> There is no benefit to me in you learning why abstractions are bad in writing

You get to "win" the so-called argument, of course.

> and you figured out that writing in abstractions and cliches is a lot easier than working at > your writing so you will refuse to give it up like most bad writers do.

You don't know a thing about my "writing", or what I've learned.
You're just insulting me because you didn't "win". So cut the crap.

[Chuck Lysaght]

What the fuck are you rambling on about?

[Cujo DeSockpuppet]

Chuck Lysaght <theguyo...@veryfast.biz> wrote in news:e8c98081-105e-
4ad0-9611-5...@googlegroups.com:

> rambling on
> http://skywriter.diaryland.com/

Yeah, I noticed that.

--
Cujo - The Official Overseer of Kooks and Trolls in dfw.*,
alt.paranormal, alt.astrology and alt.astrology.metapsych. Supreme Holy
Overlord of alt.fucknozzles. Winner of the 8/2000, 2/2003 & 4/2007 HL&S
award. July 2005 Hammer of Thor. Winning Trainer - Barbara Woodhouse
Memorial Dog Whistle - 12/2005 & 4/2008. COOSN-266-06-01895.
"You must mean every time I type? I get 100 dollars an hour to open my
mouth and convey my truth." - Eddieee, wondering why nobody calls him.

[Will Dockery]

On Saturday, February 16, 2013 7:15:05 PM UTC-5, qwerty...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 16, 2013 3:01:10 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > Here's just a good one from Eliot I came across during my looking about for "T. S. Eliot" + "cliche":
>
> > "Poetry is not an expression of personality, it is an escape from personality; it not an outpouring of emotion, it is a suppression of emotion–but of of course, only those who have personality and emotions can ever know what it means to want to get away from these things."
>
> > –T.S. Eliot
>
> This is not a cliche in Eliot's body of work but rather a concept embraced by modernism that has become cliche.

As you wrote:

"No, I define cliche as cliche: trite, boring, not original, overdone. I continue to explain why this is /bad/ in writing..."

And just the one example given today brings up the question of how far can homage go before it stretches into the area of unoriginal borrowing:

http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/cawwaste.htm

[George Dance]

>
> > > You plug your fingers in your ears and insist no one is speaking.
>
> > You know, I was going to use the same metaphor about you, when you
> > told me you didn't read what I'd written about Pound; but I thought it
> > was too cliched. I
>
> > > There is no benefit to me in you learning why abstractions are bad in writing
>
> > You get to "win" the so-called argument, of course.
>
> > > and you figured out that writing in abstractions and cliches is a lot easier than working at > your writing so you will refuse to give it up like most bad writers do.
>
> > You don't know a thing about my "writing", or what I've learned.
>
> > You're just insulting me because you didn't "win". So cut the crap.
>

> Me "getting to win" in your mind is getting you to agree abstractions are bad in poetry.

No, "getting to win" for you is to keep changing the subject until you
say something that I'll agree with (which is why you're now trying to
change it to "abstractions are bad in poetry".)

>
> What do I care if you agree?
>

You just said (though, like a good troll, you tried to attribute your
idea to me): if you can get me to agree with you, you can sapretend
you've won.

> They are bad.  Images are good.

And two legs are bad, and four legs are good. Whatever. You've given
no indication that you even understand what images and abstractions
are, much less whether they're "good", "bad", or "ugly".

You spent way too much time considering "where" I may  have learned
things so I snipped it ans you put it back in.

Who knows? Maybe you were miffed at my pointing out that all you've
been doing is mouthing cliches. Then again, maybe you were snipping so
that you can try to misrepresent the conversation. (I mean, how else
are you going to get away with pretending we've been debating whether
abstractions are "good" or "bad".)

>
> Then you continue that if I am not instructing in a comments group I am trolling?
>

When you continually pretend to be "instructing" other people on the
group, yet you never do any, it's pretty obvious what you're up to.

[Will Dockery]

He does seem to pretend to know a lot yet is never able to explain what he knows... heh.

[George Dance]

Notice that what he claims to "know" is the same thing that the actual
trolls we've seen on this group (~PJ~, ~gg~, and their dear departed
friends) have also claimed to "know"; and that he reacts the same way
they always have when called on any of it.

Of course I haven't seen him here that long, so I'm not going to make
a definitive judgement yet.

[Will Dockery]

On Monday, February 18, 2013 9:39:53 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:

> On Feb 18, 9:07 pm, Will Dockery wrote:
>> On Monday, February 18, 2013 8:55:47 PM UTC-5, George Dance wrote:
>
> > > > > > You plug your fingers in your ears and insist no one is
> > > > > > speaking.
>
> > > > > You know, I was going to use the same metaphor about you, when you
> > > > > told me you didn't read what I'd written about Pound; but I
> > > > > thought it
> > > > > was too cliched.
>

I remember Horatio from a decade ago but not a lot more besides that.

[Will Dockery]

On Monday, February 18, 2013 9:56:08 PM UTC-5, qwerty...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Monday, February 18, 2013 9:07:26 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>
> > He does seem to pretend to know a lot yet is never able to explain what
> > he knows... heh.
>

> What is this Will, third person bashing?

I wasn't "bashing", H, I was just making the observation how you make
statements, then refuse to explain yourself, saying you're not a "teacher".