Propane Installations LPG

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Our discussions on Companion way steps developed a side branch on propane installations so I thought it mad sense to start a new thread. on the topic.

Here is a link to the 2000 ABYC standards for LPG (propane) installations. I know there have been changes to the standards but in order to see them you have to be a member of the ABYC, which I am not.

ABYC A-1 MARINE LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS (LPG ...j30.us › Number › filename › ABYC LPG standard

Here is an excerpt:

A-1.9.5.4 Fuel supply lines shall be protected by close

fitting grommets, sleeves, or sealant of non-abrasive

material wherever they pass through decks or watertight

bulkheads, and the method used shall be watertight.

A-1.9.5.5 Fuel supply lines passing through bulkheads

that need not be watertight shall be installed so that the

bulkheads will not cut, abrade, or damage the line.

A-1.9.5.6 Fuel supply lines shall be continuous lengths

of tubing, piping, or hose from the regulating device,

solenoid valve, or leak detector to the appliance, or to the

flexible section at the appliance.

Here are a couple of  good articles on the issue.

LPGas169-02.pdf

Safe Boat propane Installation.htm

inspecting-lp-gas-systems

The last article has a brief discussion on fibreglass tanks.

Mark Powers

[Peter Grabow]

Hi Mark,

Thank you for this post, and the helpful links.

I am in the process of doing multiple projects on my 30 Ultra, and have decided I need to upgrade/bring to code the propane system...

Last season I noticed a slight propane smell in the propane locker when using the propane system. The system is the original installation from 1987, other than I replaced two rusty tanks with a new one a few seasons ago (one tank usually lasts the entire season).

I figured the smell may be leaking from the regulator, but not positive about that.

 - The 'T' to divide the lines for the stove and the water heater is at the forward end of the engine compartment, so that will be moved to the propane locker to meet current standards.

 - I will be replacing all hoses as well as these too are the originals.

 - The solenoid will be replaced, well, just because everything else will be new (and it looks a bit corroded). I will also not have the wires taped to the propane hose - the article says not to do this.

 - Chafe protection will be added as there doesn't appear to be any at the moment.

 - The propane/fume sniffer is functioning well - I test it fairly often.

 - The propane locker drain hose is in good condition, a straight run to it's own thru-hull, and has no blockage

Questions -

Based on the link provided by Mark - 'Safe Boat Propane Installation' - it says " 3. Controls - In order from the tank - first the pressure gauge, then regulator, then the solenoid shut-off."

As seen in the attached photo, the set-up in the propane locker has the tank, then the solenoid, then the pressure gauge and then the regulator... 

- The West Marine 'Self Propane Installations' page also indicates that this is the proper order.

- The BoatUS site says that a solenoid should be after the pressure gauge, but before the regulator... they say that the 'low pressure solenoid' (for after the step-down regulator) are not of the same quality of a 'high-pressure' solenoid (between the pressure gauge and the regulator).

1) I am assuming I should change this order to have the pressure gauge first, then either the solenoid or the regulator?  I'm inclined to have the solenoid in 2nd position, based on BoatUS's quality comments...

Thoughts?

(Not sure why the parts in my propane locker do not match either of these orders...)

2) It is my understanding that the tapered fittings do not need any sort of thread tape/compound.

 - what is the better method to use on the non-tapered connections? Pipe thread compound or tape?

Thoughts, concerns? 

I am considering replacing my old Paloma (original) water heater with a new Excel, but will continue this thought/query on a separate thread.

Thank you,

Peter Grabow

S/V CAKE WALK III

1987 30 Ultra 430

Jersey City, NJ

[Paul Miller]

My understanding was that the gauge was to measure leak down with the solenoid closed. That would make the setup in your photograph correct. I consulted a local propane guru before I designed mine and that is how I did it.  If the gauge is next to the tank and your solenoid works it won’t tell you if you are leaking down at an unacceptable rate. 

Paul M

NS30U #211, Sandpiper 

Cowichan Bay, B.C.

[Peter Grabow]

Thank you Paul.

The schematic in the Nonsuch Owners Manual has it exactly how mine is currently set up, and how you did yours...

 - Where did you source your parts?

 - how did you split the single hose coming from the regulator into two(?) separate lines - or didn't you have to? I have a stove, and a water heater which operate via the propane.

 - What did you use to seal the threads on the non-flared connections? I see what looks like a red tape...

Thank you,

Peter

[Paul Miller]

I sourced my parts at a local hose and hydraulic supplier.

I split into three hoses inside the box. (Stove, heater, water heater)

-photo attached

The line leaving the manifold heading to the left leaves high on that side of the box. They exit the box through snug fitting vinyl hose sections for chafe. The pic was taken before I added them.

The sealant is a pink Teflon tape that is for propane.

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Paul M
NS30U #211, Sandpiper

Cowichan Bay B.C.

[Peter Grabow]

Thank you Paul.

Very nice looking installation!

Peter

[Bob Neches (Solar Wind, N26C #143)]

Paul,

Do your vinyl hose sections for chafe where the propane lines exit the locker keep it vapor-tight with respect to the boat interior?

-- Bob

   Solar Wind

   Nonsuch 26C #143

[Paul Miller]

A little Sikaflex would make them vapour tight but they are a good foot above the (now functional)drain at the bottom of the locker. If the locker could fill with gas to that level very little would leak into the engine room and it would be immediately detected and the solenoid would close.

The boat managed to pass surveys for the last thirty five years with a non-functional drain, no chafe protection, no seals, and a tee connection in the cabin. It is much safer now.

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[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Peter,

I went with the same order that Paul Miller used: tank, high pressure solenoid, pressure gauge and then regulator. If you use that order you must make sure it is a high pressure solenoid. Our local propane company also states that the low pressure solenoids are not as good of quality as the high pressure solenoids. Having the solenoid first means that when it shuts off, a leaking pressure gauge will be down stream of the propane. The only source of a leak will then be the tank or the connection between the tank and the solenoid. 

You should always shut off the valve on the propane tank when you are not using the propane. There is usually a placard at the solenoid switch that tells you this.  I have a piece of red wool tied to the propane valve. When I open the valve I hang the wool outside the locker as a visual reminder that the valve is open.

Hinterhoeller Yachts installed the solenoid switch above the stove which is not considered a safe location. If there is a fire on the stove I would have to reach through the flames to shut the propane off or go out to the propane locker.

Based on the photo you posted, if I was inspecting your boat, I would have told you that you need to replace the solenoid and the pressure gauge and suggest you replace the regulator. I would also tell you that the tongs and ignitor should not be sore in the propane locker. 

If I were inspecting Paul's boat I would say it is a very nice install but you have to seal the hoses where they exit the locker. 

I conduct courtesy boat safety checks as part to the Royal Canadian Marine Search and Rescue (formerly the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary), and those are some of the things we were taught to look for when we inspect a propane system.

My experience has been that some surveyors do not inspect the propane system, When I bought La Reina my surveyor inspected the propane system but did not say anything about sealing the hose exits. His report stated the boat had an electric bilge pump and a GPS. I was there for the survey and neither of those items were on the boat. Surveyors like the rest of us are not infallible. 

Mark Powers

[Paul Miller]

Okay Mark, for you (and for the inspectors, bless their hearts) I will add a little sika. 

...... Then it can build up a little higher and go into the cockpit and down the hatch. The most important thing here is that the drain must work. As installed they apparently didn’t. I found exactly the same water traps in my propane drain line as were described in an old magazine review of the Nonsuch 30 from early in the production that I found online. It was the reason I looked. 

Paul M

NS30U #211, Sandpiper 

Cowichan Bay, B.C.

[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

You are a good man Paul.

 If the propane flows out of the locker and into the cockpit there is a good chance it will go down the cockpit drains located on the cockpit floor and then out on to the water before it goes into the cabin.

Out on the water it is less likely to reach the correct ratio to ignite but is it does it is not in a confined space.

Mark Powers

[Paul Miller]

Weren’t we assuming my drains didn’t work? Did you change the rules? 🙄😂😂

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[Mark Powers La Reina 26C Vancouver, B.C.]

Rule changes will keep you on your toes Little Grasshopper.

I did not realize that your cockpits drains did not work either. I guess they were set up to act like a kitchen sink trap so that t

When you dropped a vital screw or nut down the drain you could disconnect the hose and retrieve the part.🤡

Mark Powers

[Peter Grabow]

Thank you Mark.

I may just replace the solenoid, gauge and regulator for now ( I don't like the way they look either) and re-do the lines and water heater later when I can make sure that I have everything spec'ed out to match and work the first time...

The additional pieces seen in the propane locker are not usually in there - I placed them there for the winter as I was shutting down the boat, so I would remember where they were. The only thing that remains in the locker during sailing season are the additional, small propane canisters that are for the BBQ grill.  I appreciate the concern!

Peter