Air in Racor filter

[Mark Kochendorfer]

My Westerbeke 27hp engine has two Racor filters with plastic bowls.  One is full of fuel and  the other has a couple of inches of air.  When I turn on the ignition the fuel flows down, but the air remains.  Is this normal?  The manual says the system is self bleeding so I expected the air to go away, but it does not.

Also the surveyor says to install a metal bowl.  Has anyone done this?  Is there a conversion kit or do I replace both filters?

Mark Kochendorfer

1984 NS30U #256?

Bayfield, WI Lake Superior

[Goo...@taxwizz.com]

With a metal bowl....  How would you know that there was air in the bowl?  Transparent Aluminum ?  Ed Collis  ORION VII  Toronto  at the Gathering

[Ed Brost]

Hi Mark;   We have the same problem!

Our fuel system became heavily contaminated with water. The mechanics resolution to the water problem resulted in air being trapped in the racor filter. The engine is running fine, maybe 7 or so hours over the last three days.  ‎But the air bubble does not seem to be getting smaller.

Sorry I can't help by offering a suggestion other than to say you are not alone.

I will send a separate post describing what caused our water ‎issue when we get back to our home port next week.

.....Ed

1986 NS30U #322

‎SaSeaCat

Kincardine Ont.

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.

From: Mark Kochendorfer Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 10:38 PM To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com Reply To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com Subject: Air in Racor filter

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[Jamie Morrison]

The air space in the filter bowl is usually caused when a filter is changed. The Racor instructions say to top up the filter bowl with fresh diesel before installing the cap after installing a new filter. I think some people skip this step. It takes a very long time for the bowl to refill on its own. I would suggest removing the cap and topping it up with fresh diesel. I don’t think running it with the bowl not topped up causes any difficulties unless the bowl is so empty that the pump starts to suck air. I guess the safe thing to do would be to top it up.

Jamie Morrison
Dexterity II
30U 225
Halifax, Nova Scotia

[Joseph L. Tierney]

I recently read an article which suggested the plastic sight bowl on fuel filters was a fire hazard, because the bowl could melt in an engine room fire and add more diesel fuel to the flames. Depending on the relative location of the filter and the fuel tank, it might drain the whole tank into the fire. That seems far-fetched to me.

I suspect that Racor and others are also uncomfortable with the thesis. They could solve it by offering glass sight bowls, such as the ones I recall on very old gasoline carburetors or filters on cars.

Bottom line: I wouldn't worry about it until the insurance companies start insisting it be fixed.

Joe Tierney, Boatless (ex-Allegro, 1992 NS33 #64),  Annapolis, MD

--

[Joe Valinoti]

A. I don’t know why you would have two filters except in a third world country.  B. I’ve not ever had this problem of air in the top of the Raycor.  When I change filter cartridges, I turn the fuel valve on for a minute and it fills the assembly up.  Then I let the pump run for a minute and I’m ready to go.  I agree, that with a metal bowl you can’t see what’s in there.  Raycor, however, does make a metal shield for the bottom of most of their units as a heat shield.  Also, as I’ve mentioned before, in the spring, I place a tube at the bottom of my tank and pump out whatever is there.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

 

From: Mark Kochendorfer

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 10:38 PM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Air in Racor filter

 

[chris_inniss]

Hi Mark

Could it be that 2nd Racor is old kit, (i.e. replaced but not removed) or used for a diesel generator once upon a time? 

Have you traced the hoses for source and destination?

Chris Inniss

30U 324 Peace on Earth

Chicago

[Jack Dokter]

Mark,  this also has been a bit of an annoyance for me.  Everytime, I quickly inspect this before heading off and for some reason it's usually always full except about once a month I see the bowl is half full.    ??!!!???  Self priming?  Phhuuut, yah right.  Obviously, some air got  in the system, or the orange O-ring on top of the bowl lost it's seal, but I can't figure out how the "full bowl" can go to "half full" in one trip.  I end up scratching my head over the issue and just go back to topping it up. 

Remember .... *** You need to close the fuel supply valve at the top of the tank prior to opening the bowl, otherwise the fuel in the supply line will flow back in the tank and the supply line will be empty***.

 I had considered replacing this filter unit before, but somewhat reluctant since we can now easily see if the fuel and filter are clean, water free, and filled.  Otherwise, it's only a guessing game with a metal canister version.

Jack Dokter

Nine Lives  26C W21 099

Penetanguishene, On

  

--

Jack Dokter

Nine Lives 1983 26C W21 #099

Penetanguishene, Ont

[Mark Kochendorfer]

Page 54.1 in the manual shows two filters in series.  And yes that is how they are plumbed.

On Thursday, July 24, 2014 8:38:22 AM UTC-5, Chris Inniss wrote:

Hi Mark

Could it be that 2nd Racor is old kit, (i.e. replaced but not removed) or used for a diesel generator once upon a time? 

Have you traced the hoses for source and destination?

Chris Inniss

30U 324 Peace on Earth

Chicago

-------- Original message --------
From: Joe Valinoti <joes...@gmail.com>
Date: 07/24/2014 8:20 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Air in Raycor filter

From: 

 

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 10:38 PM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Air in Racor filter

My Westerbeke 27hp engine has two Racor filters with plastic bowls.  One is full of fuel and  the other has a couple of inches of air.  When I turn on the ignition the fuel flows down, but the air remains.  Is this normal?  The manual says the system is self bleeding so I expected the air to go away, but it does not.

 

Also the surveyor says to install a metal bowl.  Has anyone done this?  Is there a conversion kit or do I replace both filters?

 

 

Mark Kochendorfer

1984 NS30U #256?

Bayfield, WI Lake Superior

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[Mark Kochendorfer]

Mine was made with two filters as far as I can tell (the manual).  I will have to check, but I am pretty certain the filters are above the tank too--so gravity won't feed them.  The metal shield is probably what I need since this was noted in the survey which went to the insurance company.  Certainly if gravity can feed the bowls then it makes sense to protect them from fire.

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[Joe Valinoti]

Which way the fuel flows is dependent upon which part of the system is higher.  My filter is lower then the tank.  Yours, obviously, is higher.  I don’t remember which system is recommended.  Will have to do some research.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

[mar...@gmail.com]

Thanks--I will use your advice and top it up.

---

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 10:28:59 -0400

Subject: Re: Air in Racor filter

From: dokte...@gmail.com
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

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[chris_inniss]

This is where it got confusing for me a few years ago because there are 2 filters on the W27 engine itself and both are Westerbeke parts.  Your Racor(s) would be the 3rd and 4th filter(s). 

Chris

-------- Original message --------
From: Mark Kochendorfer <mar...@gmail.com>
Date: 07/24/2014 9:59 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Air in Raycor filter

Page 54.1 in the manual shows two filters in series.  And yes that is how they are plumbed.

On Thursday, July 24, 2014 8:38:22 AM UTC-5, Chris Inniss wrote:

Hi Mark

Could it be that 2nd Racor is old kit, (i.e. replaced but not removed) or used for a diesel generator once upon a time? 

Have you traced the hoses for source and destination?

Chris Inniss

30U 324 Peace on Earth

Chicago

-------- Original message --------
From: Joe Valinoti <joes...@gmail.com>
Date: 07/24/2014 8:20 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Air in Raycor filter

From: 

 

Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 10:38 PM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Air in Racor filter

 

My Westerbeke 27hp engine has two Racor filters with plastic bowls.  One is full of fuel and  the other has a couple of inches of air.  When I turn on the ignition the fuel flows down, but the air remains.  Is this normal?  The manual says the system is self bleeding so I expected the air to go away, but it does not.

 

Also the surveyor says to install a metal bowl.  Has anyone done this?  Is there a conversion kit or do I replace both filters?

 

 

Mark Kochendorfer

1984 NS30U #256?

Bayfield, WI Lake Superior

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[mar...@gmail.com]

Wow--did not know about those.

Here is a picture.  Both filters were full when this was taken--and then later on the front one went to half full.

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=E294601C8F155ACA!1354&authkey=!AB1-b3autNNjjgA&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg

Mark Kochendorfer

1984 NS30U #256?

Bayfield, WI Lake Superior

---

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 10:34:25 -0500

Subject: Re: Air in Racor filter

From: chris_...@msn.com
To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

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[Chris Inniss]

A similar setup to mine. Page 54.1 shows 3 filters in my manual.  If you follow the line from the Fuel Shutoff Valve, you will first see the "Water Separating Fuel Filter"' (that's your Racor). Next on that line is "Primary Fuel Filter" and then "Secondary Fuel Filter".  These are much smaller and attached to the engine. The Seconday FF is part of the fuel pump. 

I would recommend you remove one Racor altogether, (if it hasn't been disconnected already.)  I see no advantage to 2 Racors as long as you change the other 3 filter elements regularly. In fact, if the second Racor is connected it may be a disadvantage inasmuch as the fuel pump is working harder and there is more potential for fuel starvation and/or air leaks. 

Joe Valinotti is the Guru. Don't know of he'd agree...

Chris



iPaded

[Joe Valinoti]

Thanks for the complement, warranted or not.  What I’m looking at in that diagram, is the 1st or “Water Separating Fuel Filter” would be the Racor.  The 2nd one listed as the “Primary Fuel Filter” is the one on the engine and the 3rd or last one is really the strainer in the fuel pump itself.   It seems to be a matter of semantics or a nomenclature problem.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

[John]

Since I was going to change my single Racor filter tomorrow with a  20 micron filter, does  any one know if the 10, 20 or 30 is ideal and why?

 John Ferrero

Puffin 297 NS30U #297

Northport, NY

On Jul 24, 2014, at 2:21 PM, Joe Valinoti wrote:

Thanks for the complement, warranted or not.  What I’m looking at in that diagram, is the 1st or “Water Separating Fuel Filter” would be the Racor.  The 2nd one listed as the “Primary Fuel Filter” is the one on the engine and the 3rd or last one is really the strainer in the fuel pump itself.   It seems to be a matter of semantics or a nomenclature problem.

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

 

From: Chris Inniss

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 1:24 PM

To: INA-Nonsuch-Di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Air in Racor filter

 

A similar setup to mine. Page 54.1 shows 3 filters in my manual.  If you follow the line from the Fuel Shutoff Valve, you will first see the "Water Separating Fuel Filter"' (that's your Racor). Next on that line is "Primary Fuel Filter" and then "Secondary Fuel Filter".  These are much smaller and attached to the engine. The Seconday FF is part of the fuel pump.

 

I would recommend you remove one Racor altogether, (if it hasn't been disconnected already.)  I see no advantage to 2 Racors as long as you change the other 3 filter elements regularly. In fact, if the second Racor is connected it may be a disadvantage inasmuch as the fuel pump is working harder and there is more potential for fuel starvation and/or air leaks.

Joe Valinotti is the Guru. Don't know of he'd agree...

 

Chris


<image.jpeg>
iPaded

[Jim Cosgrove]

My Racor--on a W27 on a Nonsuch 30-- has a 2 micron (not 20) filter because that's the way the previous owner's diesel mechanic set it up.  The theory is that then this is the only filter you need and the only one that needs to get changed.  The boat has been set up this way for over 12 years without apparent ill effect.  The previous owner's previous boat (a Nonsuch 26) was set up the same way.  I suppose you may need to change the filter more frequently, but it is an easy task.

Jim Cosgrove
FATE 30U #343
Galesville, MD

[Joe Valinoti]

Actually, I use a 2 micron and never have to change the one on the engine. 

 

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

[Gary Mertl]

Often two filters will be installed so if one would clog while running, you could switch over to the other and keep going while you deal with the problem. In this case there would be a valve to choose which filter is active. You see this mainly on Bluewater boats and it's likely overkill on our Nonsuch's. Regarding the metal bowl, I don't believe that is required on our small engines. Racor makes several filters that don't use metal bowls. You might get a clarification from your surveyor as to why that suggestion.

Gary
Catspaw
N30U #362
Blaine, WA

[Gary Mertl]

P. S. mine is a single, very old Racor filter. I don't believe it is original but must have been in there for a long time. I'm thinking of replacing it with a new, spin-on type Racor for easier maintenance.

Gary
Catspaw
N30U #362
Blaine, WA

[Gary Mertl]

I think you nailed it, Joe. Right on.

Gary
Catspaw
N30U #362
Blaine, WA

[Bob Jenkins]

Jack ,the problem I recently had was that this time I replaced the large O ring that came with the filter also, but found that the engine would not start ( the first time in 14 years, scary ) . Eventually found that the large O ring was not seated properly,because the manner that it was packaged , being rolled up to reduce size and then difficult to seat.

Bob Jenkins , 

Good News 30 U  # 323 

Bluffers Park YC

Toronto
 
Sent from my iPad

[Jack Dokter]

Bob,  

I had the same situation. The first time I changed that O-ring, I thought I had it properly seated until I was about 1/2 way out of the slip when the engine went silent.  Quite a scary situation but managed to scramble and secure the vessel in place.  To solve the problem I luckily saved the old O-ring and re-used it.   That was about 4 filter changes since because it's impossible to use the new rings as what you mentioned.  They're all scrunched up to a point where it's impossible to use unless you glue them in place somehow.  Maybe it's time to figure out how to reshape a new ring and have it installed.

Jack Dokter

[Gary Mertl]

Have you tried heating the o-ring? That might relax the material and make it regain it's original shape.

Gary
Catspaw
N30U #362
Blaine, WA

[Jack Dokter]

Great idea!  I'll try that tomorrow and let you know how that worked out.

Jack

[Joe Valinoti]

I can understand the frustration with the new “O” rings.  However, they will work and I’ve never had one leak.  Just be patient and make sure it is in the groove.  Possibly if you let it set for a bit after removing from the package.

Joe Valinoti
S/V IL Gatto NS30U #221
Sea Harbour YC
Oriental, NC USA

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~ ~

[Jack Dokter]

Gary,

I tried a something you mentioned earlier.  I let the O-Ring sit in a bowl of hot water for awhile.  Within a few minutes, the ring was manageable enough to work with.  Finally, we have a new Oring gasket installed with the water separator bowl.

Jack

[Gary Mertl]

Hooray! I'm very happy that worked and good to get first hand results. I have two of those filters waiting in my spares box...

Gary
Catspaw
N30U #362
Blaine, WA