Oregon Outback

[Jan Heine]

A while back, there was some discussion here what would be the best - or fastest - bike for the Oregon Outback 363-mile gravel race/ride.

The event was last weekend. (If fact, a number of riders probably are still out there.) The roads were among the most difficult gravel roads I've encountered anywhere - it really was a punishing ride.

Ira Ryan came first on a 700C cyclocross bike with 38 mm tires. I was second on my René Herse with Babyshoe Pass Extralight 650B x 42 mm tires. I feel that a little wider tires would have been beneficial on the soft gravel and sand, but direct comparison to mountain bikers showed that their stiff sidewalls and lack of give in the forks (almost all were on rigid setups) slowed them down more than our relatively narrow tires.

A full report of Ira Ryan's ride is here:

http://www.iraryancycles.com/2014/05/the-oregon-outback-and-how-to-ruin-a-perfectly-beautiful-bike-ride/

I posted mostly about my ride back from the finish here:

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/05/27/oregon-outback-and-the-long-way-back/

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

[Rick Johnson]

On 5/27/2014 2:40 PM, Jan Heine wrote:

direct comparison to mountain bikers showed that their stiff sidewalls and lack of give in the forks (almost all were on rigid setups) slowed them down more than our relatively narrow tires.

Oh Jan, I expected a more scientific analysis from you. Clearly the big difference is the rider - none of the MTB riders were the same level as you!
In the spirit of scientific inquiry I think you should go back and ride the route again with an MTB for a true apple-to-apples comparison!
;-)

BTW - I know what you mean about the difficult roads. A few years ago I did 600 miles of the Oregon Back Country Discovery Route 5 and even with 9 inches of suspension travel and a motor it is still some rough country.

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

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[oldma...@gmail.com]

Jan,

I'm not sure how much tongue is in your cheek when you made the comments about bikes and how they were equipped compared to speed and ride time. Really? I think you are missing a number of key factors for the majority of riders out there. Mainly that they weren't necessarily riding for "time" in the same manner as yourself or Ira. They were also for the most part carrying more gear and weight than you or Ira were. A lot of people appeared to be taking a different pace, had a different goal/mindset, as well as having differing levels of fitness compared to yourself, Ira, or any of the other people who finished quickly. Comparing yourself to them and insinuating that you and your equipment are better than others who did this ride is just self aggrandizement which is poor salesmanship for your products and cycling ideology.

I'm glad you had a great time. The route looks amazing and having your, Ira's, and Rick's times as benchmarks along the route is inspiring, but not better or more worthy of praise.

Gabe

[Jan Heine]

At 3:00 PM -0700 5/27/14, Rick Johnson wrote:
>On 5/27/2014 2:40 PM, Jan Heine wrote:
>
>>direct comparison to mountain bikers showed that their stiff
>>sidewalls and lack of give in the forks (almost all were on rigid
>>setups) slowed them down more than our relatively narrow tires.
>>
>
>
>Oh Jan, I expected a more scientific analysis from you. Clearly the
>big difference is the rider - none of the MTB riders were the same
>level as you!
>In the spirit of scientific inquiry I think you should go back and
>ride the route again with an MTB for a true apple-to-apples
>comparison!

Early on, I rode about 1/4 mile behind a strong rider on a mountain
bike. What struck me was that he was faster on the smooth stuff, but
once it got really rough, he struggled, and I began to catch up. Then
the road smoothed out, and he pulled ahead again.

The only reason a mountain bike could be faster on the smooth stuff
is that he put out more power. On the rough stuff, it seems that his
stiffer tires and especially stiffer fork must have consumed more
power.

One place where it was very, very muddy, he did pull ahead on his
wider tires and more knobby tires.

I only passed him when he stopped...

It'll be interesting to hear the experiences of other listmembers -
there were quite a few at the event!

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly

http://www.bikequarterly.com

[Harold Bielstein]

I disagree, I think the fact that Jan rode his rando bike rather than a bike specifically designed for gravel road riding says volumes about the efficacy, reliability and all-purpose nature of the types of bikes that represent his riding ideology.

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Hal Bielstein
hkbie...@rap.midco.net

[oldma...@gmail.com]

Hal,

That's fine you disagree, but I think you are missing my point which was that boasting about one's performance (essentially denigrating everyone else) and one's specially designed and purpose built bike as better than, is a crass and ineffectual way of marketing your brand or bicycle ideology. This ride wasn't inherently a race or a competition, some people chose to make it so for themselves and rode it as such.

To hierarchically compare themselves to everyone else, or to compare one's purpose built and designed bike against everyone else's bike is unfortunate and misleading. What the heck is a bike designed for gravel roads anyway? Is it what the mainstream bicycle industry is attempting to market? Is it a rigid 650b, 26" or 700c/29er wheeled and shod bike? Must it have disc brakes, fenders, racks, soft bags, suspension, etc? Must it carry camping gear? Does it have to have a certain geometry? In reality, any bike that can ride a gravel road is "gravel bike".

I'm not arguing that Jan's rando bike isn't or wasn't a worthy machine, but it wasn't more worthy or less worthy, or more or less purpose built or designed than pretty much any other bike that was out on the course. Jan's bike happens to be built and designed around a particular value-set or ideology about cycling, just like any other bike that was out there. It wasn't solely the bikes that allowed Ira or Jan and others to do the impressive times they did. Primarily it was the rider, their unique and individual fitness levels, mental fitness levels, endurance experience, and riding goals and strategies that allowed them to do what they did. Each of their specially designed and built bikes were tools which helped them do it in their own particular way and inline with their own particular fashions. Neither one is better or worse, just different shades of the same spectrum.

It is interesting that the bikes that set the fastest times weren't what was most represented on the course and can be seen as outliers in popular cycling design or ideology, and even for this ride. The times that Ira, Jan, Rick Hunter and others set are impressive. Good job to everyone who attempted this challenging ride.

Gabe

[Jim Bronson]

I'm glad Jan is around to express his ideology, because it has helped me considerably in my randonneuring.  Whereas at one point in time I rode stiff and slow Gatorskins, I now ride wide cushy and fast lightweight tires.

It is precisely because he is swimming against the steam that he needs to publicize his approach and the good results possible with it.  It's not like the Trek store in town it's going to start carrying Compass tires, no matter what Jan does.

[Fred Blasdel]

On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> wrote:

The roads were among the most difficult gravel roads I've encountered anywhere - it really was a punishing ride.

I thought they were all very well graded, not particularly -- but in a number of places they were graded with fine loose material of very low density.

People on all manner of tires had a lot of trouble in the volcanic "brown sauce" north of Fort Rock, especially on the straight section of NF-18 climbing to the intersection with NF-22. In that section I only had the slightest trouble on tubeless Thunder Burts when crossing the ruts left by other people's crashes :)

Having slashed many tires in the east cascades I used the lightly-armored Snakeskin version, but that didn't appear to be a big problem on the course, there weren't even any goatheads! The only destroyed tire I know of was a 650b Vee Rubber tire set up tubeless, which got cuts that didn't fully seal and a bulged casing.

I probably could have ridden the faster Evo version of the tires, which are lighter and as fast as Hetres but I wanted to play it conservative, and besides the slow surfaces and constant headwind were far greater factors than the tire's Crr.

Ira Ryan came first on a 700C cyclocross bike with 38 mm tires. I was second on my René Herse with Babyshoe Pass Extralight 650B x 42 mm tires. I feel that a little wider tires would have been beneficial on the soft gravel and sand

Width alone didn't seem to be enough, every rider on 29" Super Motos crashed at least once, even the organizer Gabe riding them tubeless at low pressure on the 50mm rims of his Krampus.

Did you have to walk up any sections or ride the brakes descending to avoid exceeding traction?

I didn't use my brakes at all until the latter part of the ride -- the water crossings of Trout Creek Road and the chicanes on it's lower part, the sandy switchbacks on Sayrs, and the gusty saddles on Gordon Ridge

 

but direct comparison to mountain bikers showed that their stiff sidewalls and lack of give in the forks (almost all were on rigid setups) slowed them down more than our relatively narrow tires.

Having stiffer sidewalls also lets you run much lower pressures without squirming -- and don't forget that many of their tires are no stiffer in the sidewalls than your non-EL tires.

Fork deflection is completely insignificant compared to that other pet theory of yours: planing! The MTBs you're criticizing have super stiff front triangles for directional stability in the singletrack this course lacked entirely. Those Surly trail bikes that were ridden in large numbers are all double-oversize 9/6/9 since they're made by 250lb midwestern giants to take their abuse.

[Fred Blasdel]

On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 3:30 PM, Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> wrote:

Early on, I rode about 1/4 mile behind a strong rider on a mountain bike. What struck me was that he was faster on the smooth stuff, but once it got really rough, he struggled, and I began to catch up. Then the road smoothed out, and he pulled ahead again.

The only reason a mountain bike could be faster on the smooth stuff is that he put out more power. On the rough stuff, it seems that his stiffer tires and especially stiffer fork must have consumed more power.

His bike was also likely heavier than yours, and loaded with the water bladder and camping gear you went without -- you need to dump power into the pedals to maintain your momentum and cadence through all those little decelerations

I was feeling it especially when riding with you and Ira for the first ~11 miles. Unlike the thru-riders I had a full complement of gear, my bike weighed 30lb more than any of the others in our break.

It's also entirely possible his tires were overinflated!

It was a fun game trying to match ruts to riders, there were a time we thought a track was a friend's 41mm Knard and it turned out to be a different friend on a Krampus with 3" Knards that weren't deflecting! He'd just gotten it and hadn't heard The Gospel of Berto yet.

 

One place where it was very, very muddy, he did pull ahead on his wider tires and more knobby tires.

I would say that was just muddy, no verys, verily :)

[Harold Bielstein]

Gabe, It seems that you have an “axe to grind” that would be better taken up with some specific individual rather than with everyone!

[Mike Schiller]

Gabe, I'm glad you posted your comments. I was trying very hard not to add any negative comments.  I certainly admire Jan and Ira's accomplishments as well as everyone else who was out there, I really wish I had made the effort to get up there from So Cal. 

Jan's comments about MTB tires and their suitability for this kind of terrain/event show a lack of real/actual MTB tire experience.  It isn't the first time he has extrapolated his experience to other areas without actual testing. While  I greatly admire the work he had done in the Cyclotouring/Randonneuring area and the significant impact he had made on me and cycling as a whole, every time he mentions some off-hand comment about an area he has virtually no experience in causes my blood to boil.  My direct experience with Hetres and Thunder Burt's has shown me that there are MTB tires to rival the incredible ride quality and speed of the GB tires. 

~mike

Carlsbad Ca

[Fred Blasdel]

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 6:35 PM, <oldma...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm not arguing that Jan's rando bike isn't or wasn't a worthy machine, but it wasn't more worthy or less worthy, or more or less purpose built or designed than pretty much any other bike that was out on the course. Jan's bike happens to be built and designed around a particular value-set or ideology about cycling, just like any other bike that was out there. It wasn't solely the bikes that allowed Ira or Jan and others to do the impressive times they did. Primarily it was the rider, their unique and individual fitness levels, mental fitness levels, endurance experience, and riding goals and strategies that allowed them to do what they did. Each of their specially designed and built bikes were tools which helped them do it in their own particular way and inline with their own particular fashions. Neither one is better or worse, just different shades of the same spectrum.

This is so true and was incredibly evident throughout the event

One strongman did it comfortably on a Bullitt cargo bike in 4 days buying nothing but beer and coffee, alongside people giving it their all on purpose-built steeds

Plenty of people with tricked out setups DNFed, including one of the organizers and one of my friends. So much of it is mental.

The most important feature of anyone's specially-designed setup is that they are confident in it

It is interesting that the bikes that set the fastest times weren't what was most represented on the course and can be seen as outliers in popular cycling design or ideology, and even for this ride. 

The outliers were much more interesting than all the bikes outfitted with buzzword-compliant "bikepacking" gear in one fell swipe of the credit card. "Mine's the black xpac with red stitching" was a constant joke in every camp and shuttle.

Donnie was baffled that he hadn't heard of any racks breaking -- but there was no aggregate bigger than a golf ball; no drops, steps, or gullies; no alpine or singletrack and only a couple creek crossings rideable even with lowrider panniers.

I guess since bikepacking almost necessitates sleeping in a bivy, the movement is predestined to huff its own farts :)

[Fred Blasdel]

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:29 PM, Mike Schiller <mikey...@rocketmail.com> wrote:

Jan's comments about MTB tires and their suitability for this kind of terrain/event show a lack of real/actual MTB tire experience.  It isn't the first time he has extrapolated his experience to other areas without actual testing. While  I greatly admire the work he had done in the Cyclotouring/Randonneuring area and the significant impact he had made on me and cycling as a whole, every time he mentions some off-hand comment about an area he has virtually no experience in causes my blood to boil.  My direct experience with Hetres and Thunder Burt's has shown me that there are MTB tires to rival the incredible ride quality and speed of the GB tires. 

You're certainly right about the "accidental trolling" effect he has on people when he reasons from first principles instead of experience

He did likely use the perfect tires for how he wanted to ride the course, but the majority of the ~125 people that rode it last weekend had other priorities

[mitch....@gmail.com]

Great article, and what an adventure. 

You mention at one point airing up your tires to pavement pressure, or intending to. You mentioned somewhere you rode the BSP XL tires at under 40 psi rear and a little less in front. What would you air up to for pavement then, if I understood correctly, and why have two different pressures?  

thanks, 

Mitch (my gravel rides last weekend on Babyshoe Pass XL tires were only a couple hours)

[Robert Markwardt]

Ira's report mentions that there were others, well qualified, who were looking to go fast..maybe the bike helped?. Getting angry at a post like Jans blows my mind. Anyway...I want to do this ride. Some good pics here including Ira's fast looking/non mountain orange bike.

http://theradavist.com/2014/05/bikes-faces-oregon-outback/#1

[cyclotourist]

Anyone able to tell me what this bike is: http://theradavist.com/2014/05/bikes-faces-oregon-outback/#8 

Lugged curved fork with discs, skinny tubes, long head tube... I'm in love!

And I know it's not hip to say good things about them, but it looks like Specialized has come out with a damn sensible bike in that Awol. Good for them!

Cheers,
David

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

--

[Mike Schiller]

That's a Donkelope, a custom touring bike.  http://donkelopebikes.blogspot.com/

~mike

[rob perks]

David, That is Martina from Swift Industries custom ride.  She has had it just over a year now and you can probably find some pics of it in their flicker feed as well - Rob

On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 11:37:28 PM UTC-7, cyclotourist wrote:

[Fred Blasdel]

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 11:37 PM, cyclotourist <cyclot...@gmail.com> wrote:

Anyone able to tell me what this bike is: http://theradavist.com/2014/05/bikes-faces-oregon-outback/#8 

Lugged curved fork with discs, skinny tubes, long head tube... I'm in love!

It's Martina's custom Donkelope: http://cycleswift.wordpress.com/2014/05/21/oregon-outback-shakedown-martina-brimmer/

The tallness is because she's a genuine T-Rex, I'm 4" taller than her, yet her inseam is nearly the same!

 

And I know it's not hip to say good things about them, but it looks like Specialized has come out with a damn sensible bike in that Awol.

I wouldn't say that, it's built absurdly stout (the frameset is a pound heavier than a Long Haul Trucker!) and the stack+reach are ridiculously exaggerated

[cyclotourist]

Thanks for the 411 everyone! I've heard of them before, but couldn't read it on my monitor! As I mentioned, love the curved/lugged disc fork!

Too bad the Awol is so over built, but the bike is a total move in the right direction! Hopefully they can dial it in and make it something like Salsa designed six years ago! :-)

Cheers,
David

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Matthew J]

>Jan's comments about MTB tires and their suitability for this kind of terrain/event show a lack of real/actual MTB tire experience.  It isn't the first time he has extrapolated his experience to other areas without actual testing. 

> While  I greatly admire the work he had done in the Cyclotouring/Randonneuring area and the significant impact he had made on me and cycling as a whole, every time he mentions some off-hand comment about an area 

> he has virtually no experience in causes my blood to boil.  My direct experience with Hetres and Thunder Burt's has shown me that there are MTB tires to rival the incredible ride quality and speed of the GB tires.  

I disagree with you and Gabe.  

Most casual, and even some committed observers of rides such as the Outback assume an MTB is the only way to go.   Jan and Ira's experience help demonstrate that those not interested in MTBs have options.  It is not as though MTBs were under represented.

[Matt Surch]

Fred, any thoughts on the Thunder Burts' rolling resistance versus the Furious Freds? Schwalbe claims they are lower, but I have to ask how that could be true, given they have deeper knobs. At the same time, the FFs can't handle more than pretty smooth trails, in my experience (puncture easily on rocks), so I wonder whether the Thunder Burt is the new go-to as the fastest practicable mixed terrain tire from Schwalbe?

Really interesting reading your feedback, btw.

Matt

[Mike Schiller]

the course organizers and developers were very clear in all the pre-ride communications that 2" tires were highly recommended. It seems that most riders took their advice. And contrary to Jan's write-up there were many,many riders on cross/gravel/fat tire road bikes with 40-45 mm tires.  

I've ridden thousands of off-road miles on Hetres and equivalent tires but I wouldn't have used those on that course unless that is all I had ( or I was the seller of).

~mike

[Steve Palincsar]

You think that's why Jan used them?

[Matthew J]

> the course organizers and developers were very clear in all the pre-ride communications that 2" tires were highly recommended.

At least as I understand Jan's comments, I think this is what he is trying to address.  While 2" tires may well be a good choice for some of the riders depending on what they were hoping to get out of the ride, the mindset that this type of ride is best done on 2" is not any different from road riders saying road rides are best done on 700x23s.  

Also, per Prolly's write up on the Outback on Theradavist.com (includes some great pictures of Fred and has bike, btw) Jan makes the point he uses one bike for all his riding (although I think Jan has a porteur for running errands in the city).  As we know from Jan's blog after completing the Outback Jan made pretty quick work riding back to Seattle along mainly paved roads.

Maybe many riders change bikes or bike set up between the two rides.  Personally find it inspirational Jan did both without any adjustments.

[rcnute]

Even a good 'ol MB-1!  http://theradavist.com/2014/05/bikes-faces-oregon-outback/#6

Ryan

[Fred Blasdel]

How else is he going to confirm that they'll hold up in such situations? 

[Fred Blasdel]

On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 7:14 AM, Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> wrote:

I think that for the loose stuff, you had the best setup. I really did wish for wider tires. I don't think added tread was needed - I really didn't slide except when my bike fish-tailed on the loose gravel.

But how much braking did you do to retain traction?

I didn't fishtail once. I did bobble the front wheel at low speeds a couple times on the poor trail surface after Beatty when I was mentally slow from the continuous effort.

I did do a hilarious powerslide on the last turn of Erskine Road before Gordon Ridge, suddenly having a tailwind for once I entered the turn at 40mph and the wind went from my back to pushing me to the outside on the loose-over-hard. I was spinning my wheels and dumping from my biggest to smallest gears but rode out of it upright.

 

My point about the bike not having problems was mostly in response to those (not on this list, but elsewhere) who think that lightweight equipment and especially tires are incredibly fragile.

I've been riding the supplest available tires for several years, and have torn many of them.

I had six slashes last summer, sidewall cuts to Racing Ralphs on the Iron Horse near Easton and in the Mad River Canyon above Entiat, a tread cut in an old Ralph entering the Plains of Abraham on Mt. St. Helens, a sidewall slash in a Hetre EL walking my bike near Spada Lake, and blowouts in both Hetre ELs in the Touts Coulee above Loomis.

Your ride showed that your bugfixes to the EL casing implementation worked!

I still wouldn't want to depend on them in the eastern cascades too far off a traveled mainline. Plenty of nontechnical routes in southern california and the southwest are even more definitely no-go because of how flinty the rocks are

I even had somebody call my bike a "parade bike" once!

You take a lot of well-earned pride in the concours fit and finish of your machine!  Just because it's high-performance doesn't mean you're not a dandy :)

[Matthew J]

> You take a lot of well-earned pride in the concours fit and finish of your machine!  Just because it's high-performance doesn't mean you're not a dandy :) 

Yeah, well your bovine spotted Elephant is drawing the oohs and ahhs on the Radavist blog site!

[Ely Ruth Rodriguez]

Great job Jan, and Ira too, congratulations on a strong finish and meeting your personal challenges.
I really enjoyed reading your write up and the fact that you rode home and missed dinner was pretty dang funny.
Very interesting seeing the different bikes, riders, styles, bags, philosophies, equipment, and goals.
Ira's bike looked all business with the discs, carbon fork, steel frame and minimal luggage. The team Swift portraits were also very interesting.

One thing is for sure, it sounds like everyone had a great time getting beat up by that wind and the loose surface.
Hat's off to the organizers and the riders for stirring peoples sense of adventure and imagination.
I hope to ride some of that countryside in the near future.

Ely

[Eric Daume]

What makes you say the AWOL is overbuilt? The tubing looks quite a bit smaller diameter than the Fargo, for instance.

Eric Daume

Dublin, OH

[Joe Broach]

Eric,

Maybe Fred will chime back in, but I read the overbuilt from "the frameset is a pound heavier than a Long Haul Trucker." Given that the LHT can handle a heck of a load, the AWOL sounds pretty stout for a "gravel grinder"/light tourer. The Fargo is designed to handle singletrack which to me is a different design mission (i.e. extra stiffness might have some handling benefit).

Neat to see Specialized playing with some different designs, though.

Best,

joe broach

portland, or

[Eric Daume]

Thanks Joe, I missed the LHT comparison in the original message. Some of that weight is due to the adjustable dropouts, but yeah... still at least half a pound heavier than the legendarily stiff LHT... yikes!

[Jan Heine]

Gabe,

I wasn't comparing those with camping gear and a different objective. I am sorry if my comment could be understood that way. Somebody who did the ride with a tent and stove and a week's worth of supplies isn't trying to keep up with the front-runners.

At the front, there were 5-10 riders who were going for it. These fast riders rode anything from a 700C cyclocross bike to a 26" mountain bike, with 29ers and my 650B randonneur bike thrown into the mix.

Comparing their speeds on different surfaces was interesting. If somebody is faster than me on one surface, but slower on another, then that gives me some indication that their bike setup is working better on one surface than the other.

Beyond that, the faster you ride on rough surfaces, the more you stress the equipment. That is why the French Technical Trials of the 1930s gave bonus points for higher speeds. So if the equipment works fine for the front-runners, then it really is able to handle this terrain.

So to clarify, I wasn't intending to take anything away from the achievements and fun that others had on this ride. I set out to see whether our components would do well on this relatively harsh test, and I was glad to report that they did exceedingly well. That's all.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
2116 Western Ave.
Seattle WA 98121
http://www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

At 12:40 PM -0700 5/28/14, oldma...@gmail.com wrote:

Jan,

I'm not sure how much tongue is in your cheek when you made the comments about bikes and how they were equipped compared to speed and ride time. Really? I think you are missing a number of key factors for the majority of riders out there. Mainly that they weren't necessarily riding for "time" in the same manner as yourself or Ira. They were also for the most part carrying more gear and weight than you or Ira were. A lot of people appeared to be taking a different pace, had a different goal/mindset, as well as having differing levels of fitness compared to yourself, Ira, or any of the other people who finished quickly. Comparing yourself to them and insinuating that you and your equipment are better than others who did this ride is just self aggrandizement which is poor salesmanship for your products and cycling ideology.

I'm glad you had a great time. The route looks amazing and having your, Ira's, and Rick's times as benchmarks along the route is inspiring, but not better or more worthy of praise.

Gabe

On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 2:40:43 PM UTC-7, Jan Heine wrote:

A while back, there was some discussion here what would be the best - or fastest - bike for the Oregon Outback 363-mile gravel race/ride.

The event was last weekend. (If fact, a number of riders probably are still out there.) The roads were among the most difficult gravel roads I've encountered anywhere - it really was a punishing ride.

Ira Ryan came first on a 700C cyclocross bike with 38 mm tires. I was second on my René Herse with Babyshoe Pass Extralight 650B x 42 mm tires. I feel that a little wider tires would have been beneficial on the soft gravel and sand, but direct comparison to mountain bikers showed that their stiff sidewalls and lack of give in the forks (almost all were on rigid setups) slowed them down more than our relatively narrow tires.

A full report of Ira Ryan's ride is here:

http://www.iraryancycles.com/2014/05/the-oregon-outback-and-how-to-ruin-a-perfectly-beautiful-bike-ride/

I posted mostly about my ride back from the finish here:

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/05/27/oregon-outback-and-the-long-way-back/

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

[Jan Heine]

I had about 35 psi in both tires, but on the loose gravel, I felt the
front could do with less. So at one gate, I was the first through,
and while the others closed the gate, I bled a little air out of the
tire. Maybe 2-3 psi, but it made a difference.

Jan H

[Jan Heine]

At 9:09 AM -0700 5/29/14, Mike Schiller wrote:
>the course organizers and developers were very clear in all the
>pre-ride communications that 2" tires were highly recommended. It
>seems that most riders took their advice. And contrary to Jan's
>write-up there were many,many riders on cross/gravel/fat tire road
>bikes with 40-45 mm tires.

The course organizers also felt strongly that you needed a mountain
bike. As Fred pointed out, the course was not mountain biking at all,
so many of the strengths of mountain bikes did not play out here.
It's a common misperception that as soon as you leave pavement, flat
handlebars and the other features that define a mountain bike are
necessary or at least advantageous.

It really was a road ride, on loose gravel roads. I do not think my
tire choice was ideal for the course. Neither were Ira's 38 mm tires.
I think that a 60 mm-wide tire, with an Extralight casing, would have
been close to ideal, if such a thing existed. If there was a loss of
speed on the smooth and paved sections, it would have been smaller
than the speed gain on the really loose stuff.

I didn't feel the need for extra tire tread or even knobbies, but
others seem to disagree. When my bike slid, it was because the gravel
I was pushing with my tires had nothing to hold it, rather than slip
at the tire/gravel interface. I don't see how knobs would stabilize
the rocks that don't come in contact with the tire.

The event was interesting because few of us knew what to expect. So
we brought the bikes that a) we had and b) that we thought would be
best-suited to the event. In the Washington Cascades, 42 mm tires are
all you need on most gravel roads, since we don't get loose, sandy
stuff like that.

So on the one hand, I am tempted to get a bike that would be ideally
suited to the event, but on the other hand, I also realize that my
current bike is fine for 99% of my riding.

I don't want anybody to construe my writing as saying that the only
suitable bike/tire was the one I rode. Anybody who has followed the
event (or the discussions on this list) knows that my tire choice was
both relatively narrow and definitely lightweight in comparison to
what most riders used and what the organizers recommended. Yes, as
the seller of these tires, I do have an interest in showing that they
are more durable than many people think. At least, instead of making
bold claims and wave my arms, I took them out there and tried them.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
2116 Western Ave.
Seattle WA 98121
http://www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

--

[Jan Heine]

I don't think anybody needs to apologize for the aesthetics of their
bikes. Fred looked good on his bike, and I appreciate that. Looking a
certain way shows that some effort has been spent, and being
presentable is a service to the public as well as to oneself.

I do think this is the first time I've been called a dandy, though!
My family will get a good laugh out of that!

Jan H

[Jan Heine]

At 1:33 PM -0700 5/29/14, Fred Blasdel wrote:

On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 7:14 AM, Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> wrote:

I think that for the loose stuff, you had the best setup. I really did wish for wider tires. I don't think added tread was needed - I really didn't slide except when my bike fish-tailed on the loose gravel.

But how much braking did you do to retain traction?

None. I only braked to keep my speed below 40 mph on the gravel. Just a basic precaution - if I hit a particularly loose patch of gravel or whatnot. Probably unnecessary - higher speed would float better over the gravel.

I do admit to walking a few of the steepest uphills toward the end. I didn't feel the need to ruin my knees...

Jan H.

[Jan Heine]

At 9:12 PM -0700 5/28/14, Fred Blasdel wrote:

On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 3:30 PM, Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> wrote:

Early on, I rode about 1/4 mile behind a strong rider on a mountain bike. What struck me was that he was faster on the smooth stuff, but once it got really rough, he struggled, and I began to catch up. Then the road smoothed out, and he pulled ahead again.

The only reason a mountain bike could be faster on the smooth stuff is that he put out more power. On the rough stuff, it seems that his stiffer tires and especially stiffer fork must have consumed more power.

His bike was also likely heavier than yours, and loaded with the water bladder and camping gear you went without -- you need to dump power into the pedals to maintain your momentum and cadence through all those little decelerations

I was feeling it especially when riding with you and Ira for the first ~11 miles. Unlike the thru-riders I had a full complement of gear, my bike weighed 30lb more than any of the others in our break.

Fred,

You are right that there are many possible factors, tire pressure being the biggest one. I was just surprised - I went into the event figuring I'd have one of the faster bikes on the smooth stuff and pavement, but that I would give up some speed on the rough stuff. When the opposite seemed to be the case, I was surprised.

It was fun riding with you at the front, and I was sad when you were gone - although you missed out the crash when our lead rider led us into a boulder field (I went over a huge rock with no damage, but one rider ripped off his derailleur hanger, while the other crashed and was a bit shaken up).

I didn't last much longer than you - the pace was high, too high, in fact, to maintain for long. That is how I rode behind the mountain biker and got to observe our relative speed...

The leaders also slowed down eventually, of course.

I think that for the loose stuff, you had the best setup. I really did wish for wider tires. I don't think added tread was needed - I really didn't slide except when my bike fish-tailed on the loose gravel.

My point about the bike not having problems was mostly in response to those (not on this list, but elsewhere) who think that lightweight equipment and especially tires are incredibly fragile. I even had somebody call my bike a "parade bike" once!

Jan Heine

Compass Bicycles Ltd.

[Fred Blasdel]

On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> wrote:

I didn't feel the need for extra tire tread or even knobbies, but others seem to disagree. When my bike slid, it was because the gravel I was pushing with my tires had nothing to hold it, rather than slip at the tire/gravel interface. I don't see how knobs would stabilize the rocks that don't come in contact with the tire.

Yet people don't use slick tires for racing in similar conditions, even at the World Cup level in the weeniest disciplines of the sport.

Downhill racing has lots of money and development, and it's a time-trial format competitive to the millisecond. If you're looking for your hallowed Technical Trials, mountain biking is where you'll find them.

Construction and materials are really important, but there are also a lot of fine-grained distinctions between tread patterns beyond wet and dry conditions, like hardpack vs. loose vs. loose-over-hard and combinations of dirt, duff, clay, sand, gravel, babyhead, rock, roots, etc.

People don't use slicks even on slickrock, perhaps there's a reason for that?

I think it's funny that you discovered the importance of tread patterns for wide tires on pavement but aren't getting it here

[jfrye]

I ran slick lightweight tires (Soma's new Grand Rando) for the Almanzo 100 recently. At the starting line I had maybe a half dozen other riders comment on my tire choice. One even cautioned me to be carfeful. I had no issues with either traction or tire fragility (less then five miles in I had past maybe four or five people already flatted).
We faced many miles of loose deep gravel, especially in the latter half of the course. I agree with Jan that unless you could run tires with a lug depth like a motocross tire you will not get purchase in deep gravel.

Jayme

[Evan Baird]

Just out of curiosity, what are you running them on? Any photos?

[Jayme Frye]

For Almanzo I ran the Grand Rando's on my Rawland Stag (strange for me I don't have a photo from the day). The tires have also seen duty on my Toussaint Cycles Velo Routier which I do have pics. 

Note that last picture. This is the only issue I have experienced with the tires in about 500 miles. Can't really blame the tire though for this (and before you ask no I didn't see the giant nail in the road :-D ) . 

Cheers

Jayme Frye

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[Evan Baird]

Looks good! I'm a fan of those brakes.