Current Disc Road Frames for 650b Conversion

[Justin Hughes]

In the interest of increasing space and ride time while decreasing maintenance I'm looking to pare down to just a few bikes and I would like all three of them to be fit 650b disc wheels. The hardtail MTB is the easiest and I'll shop for that one later. The bikepacking/gravel/errand frame will be the Elephant NFE later this year. 

But, the 42-584 disc go-fast frame is a little harder. I can't afford a custom right now so it would need to be a production frame, which I'm sure means conversion. I've owned plenty of steel frames and my current go-fast is a Fierte full Ti. I really dig it, but I'm a bigger guy and will never be svelt again so I really prefer tires bigger than 26-622. I've never had an aluminum frame, but I don't know that I'm against one for this application. I'd think the large supple tires, carbon seat post and fork should absorb a lot. 

Anyone know of frames that would fit the bill?

[Alex Wetmore]

There are so many gravel grinder frames out there now which are basically road bikes for 700C x 30-something and disk brakes.  Any of those should convert to 650B trivially (just replace the wheels).

Salsa Warbird or Salsa Collossal come to mind as likely candidates.  I knew they sold bikes like this, so I checked their website, there are probably better options that I'm not aware of.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Justin Hughes <justin...@me.com>
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 9:08:22 AM
To: 650b
Subject: [650B] Current Disc Road Frames for 650b Conversion

 

In the interest of increasing space and ride time while decreasing maintenance I'm looking to pare down to just a few bikes and I would like all three of them to be fit 650b disc wheels. The hardtail MTB is the easiest and I'll shop for that one later. The bikepacking/gravel/errand frame will be the Elephant NFE later this year. 

But, the 42-584 disc go-fast frame is a little harder. I can't afford a custom right now so it would need to be a production frame, which I'm sure means conversion. I've owned plenty of steel frames and my current go-fast is a Fierte full Ti. I really dig it, but I'm a bigger guy and will never be svelt again so I really prefer tires bigger than 26-622. I've never had an aluminum frame, but I don't know that I'm against one for this application. I'd think the large supple tires, carbon seat post and fork should absorb a lot. 

Anyone know of frames that would fit the bill?

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[Steve Chan]

   The Twin Six Rando seems to be a contender as well:

http://ridinggravel.com/gravel-news/at-the-finish-twin-six-standard-rando/

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[William Lindsay]

It's probably out of the OP's price range and targets, but I saw in the flesh, on the Sales Floor at Berkeley REI the Cannondale Slate.  It's got 650x42 tires mounted tubeless for you out the door, and has hydraulic Shimano Disc brakes.  It's a really cool bike, in my opinion.  $2800 complete.  

Parked right next to it was a really smartly set up budget disc bike, a Novarra Mazama.  $1100 for a really solid wannabe Fargo.  It had the first cable-actuated disc brakes I've ever felt that didn't feel like total crap in my hand.  A lot of people could do everything they need to do with a bike like that.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito CA

[avand...@gmail.com]

But why oh why did they spec a PF30 BB shell on a steel frame?

[Justin Hughes]

I guess I need to clarify that I'm not after an all-rounder, gravel-grinder, touring or do-it-all bike. I want this to be my group ride, light weight, bag-less, fender-less go-fast bike. 42-584 wheels on frames designed around 42-622 tires like the Twin Six Rando are gonna throw the geometry off. Not to mention that frame is just 4130 (which is great for certain applications). The Cannondale Slate is pretty cool, but I'm not looking for a complete build. I could sell off the components if it comes down to that, though. The Salsa Colossal seems like a valid option. I'd also like to avoid using a CX fork as the axle to crown would be way taller than needed. I appreciate the feedback. Keep it coming. 

[Alex Wetmore]

There are many bikes being sold as gravel grinder bikes that are very far from touring bikes.  They don't have any method of carrying racks and use lighter tubing and road-like geometry.  You already have one of the best production 650B bikes out there, which is the NFE, so I was trying to suggest other alternatives that aren't too similar to it.

Ignore the label, look at the geometry and tubing specs.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Justin Hughes <justin...@me.com>

Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 10:16:46 AM
To: 650b
Cc: justin...@me.com
Subject: Re: [650B] Current Disc Road Frames for 650b Conversion

 

[Sofia Torres]

Justin, you and I are after the same thing. I've thought about just going to a Cannondale (or whatever brand, but I like Cannondales) dealer and measuring the disc road bikes on the floor for clearance. Or buying a carbon Salsa Warbird, though that one I think the geo might get weird with 584 x 42. FWIW, I've measured a couple Orbea disc road frames (carbon) for 584 x 42 clearance and they were not even close. 

Check out the Marin Gestalt. We have one at the shop I work at... I can measure for Babyshoe Pass clearance tomorrow at work.

[Justin Hughes]

Thanks for the info, Sofia. Yeah, I mean a CAAD10 disc or the like would be pretty great if it fits the tires. I should probably take my calipers to the Cannondale dealer and find out. If and when I do I'll post my measurements. 

[Chris Cullum]

On May 2, 2016 9:23 AM, "Alex Wetmore" <al...@phred.org> wrote:
>
> There are so many gravel grinder frames out there now which are basically road bikes for 700C x 30-something and disk brakes.  Any of those should convert to 650B trivially (just replace the wheels).
>
>
> Salsa Warbird or Salsa Collossal come to mind as likely candidates.  I knew they sold bikes like this, so I checked their website, there are probably better options that I'm not aware of.
>

The Warbird probably yes but the Collossal doesn't have very good tire clearance. The problem with many of these bikes is that they have quite slack headtubes. It's hard to find one with both the clearance and a head angle in the 73deg range.

[Ed Braley]

Most of the new go-fast disc brake road bikes are designed for something like a 28mm 700C tire. A 650x38B tire might fit a few of these bikes, but a true 42mm tire is pushing it. A bike that will fit a 650x42B tire will probably be a more gravel oriented bike, and as such it will have a slack head angle, longer chain stays, and a taller fork.

 

I converted a PlanetX London Road to 650x42B and I like it as a gravel grinder type of bike. With Panaracer T-Serv tires it's not as fast as my Trek Pilot and Trek 1200c conversions on their Pari-Motos. It might feel faster on lighter tires, although I haven't tried it, and I don't really care because it suits my purposes as it is now.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/25373440@N00/albums/72157656526209401

 

If you're a big guy then a PanetX London Road might be good for you.

 

The Cannondale Slate is one of the few bikes that has race bike geometry and still fits 650x42B tires. I'd like to see that bike offered without the Lefty fork, since I personally don't think the benefit is worth additional cost. But I'm not customer, in any case...

 

There may be something out there, but you're still ahead of the curve with respect to what the industry is offering. As Alex stated, you'll have to look at the geometry and tubing specs as well as the tire clearances.

 

Things are still in a state of flux with respect to QR vs. thru-axle and disk mount variations. And factory built 650B 11 speed road compatible wheelsets are not common.

 

I really like my 650B bikes, but personally, for a group ride I'd reach for something light and fast on 700C wheels.

 

Ed

 

----- Original Message -----

[J L]

As a side note, what is the current wisdom about axles? Has QR or through-axle won for  road disc? 

Jason

--

[William Lindsay]

Justin

This may be out of your price range I assume, but I'd LOOOOVE to try this Open UP:

https://opencycle.com/up/

It looks to be a $2800 frameset.  Soulcraft has a Road+ bike as well, which is semi-custom.  

On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 10:16:46 AM UTC-7, Justin Hughes wrote:

[Justin Hughes]

Not sure, but for my purposes I'm sure QR is more than adequate and what I'd prefer. That said, I'm not ruling out thru axle frames because I am and will be using hubs that are easily convertible. 

[Justin Hughes]

Yeah, it's out of my price range. Interesting frame, though, for sure. 

[Eric Keller]

conversions sound great until you shell out the $50 and up for the
conversion caps. The problem with through axle is the movement to
Boost 148mm, which seems to be taking over from 142mm. And who knows
about front TA?

[Steven Frederick]

My worry with conversions is that gravel bikes featuring clearance for
fairly large 700c tires will mean a 650b conversion will lower the BB
too much. I would like a disc braked 650b all 'rounder that would
take a 48-51mm tire and have room for fenders or at least that size
w/out fenders and 42mm with.

I like the idea of the NFE very much but I too would like something a
bit racier, and not necessarily designed around low trail/front
loading geometry.

The C-dale Slate would interest me more if it took a bit bigger tire
and was easier (possible?) to fender. As Ed says, the Lefty doesn't
really fit my needs though I could live with it.

I was on the NFE list but had my name removed-I'm seriously thinking
about getting back on since it's about the only game in town right
now, but I'm trying to be patient and see what might come out in a
year or so. Also, might try getting Gunnar to do a Fast-track
designed around my tire preference. I checked with them a while back
and they were willing. It'd be a bit more money than the NFE tho,
which seems like a spanking good deal...

Steve

[Alex Wetmore]

Steven wrote:
> My worry with conversions is that gravel bikes featuring clearance for
> fairly large 700c tires will mean a 650b conversion will lower the BB
> too much. I would like a disc braked 650b all 'rounder that would
> take a 48-51mm tire and have room for fenders or at least that size
>w/out fenders and 42mm with.

This concern is easily addressed by looking at the BB drop of the bikes that you are considering. The Salsa frames that I mentioned have 70mm of drop, which on the high side of safe for a 42mm 650B tire. If you ride 170mm cranks it is very do-able. My primary 650B bike has 74mm of drop how I ride it (the bike has an EBB, so BB drop is variable) and I rarely have issues with pedal strike with 172.5mm cranks.

alex

________________________________________
From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Steven Frederick <stl...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 12:54:56 PM
To: 650b

[Greg Walton]

To amplify Alex's point, the Elephant NFE has a 70mm drop and many run 42mm tires with no complaints.  Most gravel bikes don't have more than a 70mm drop (there are exceptions, of course).

I would seriously look at the Salsa Warbird carbon frame; it seems to check all, or most of, your boxes.  The newest gen Warbirds have greater tire clearance, although I don't know where the max out for 650B.  And a 70mm drop, btw.

Greg

Seattle

[Andrew Pollard]

There is also Endpoint

http://rideendpoint.com/collections/frontpage/products/coffee-grinder

[Scott Henry]

That BB is the one reason that I have held off on buying that Twin Six standard frame many times.    Now they are out of the green matching fenders too.   So the deal is off for me.

But that Ti model does look rather tempting.

[Steven Frederick]

Thanks Alex and Greg. Looking at Salsa frames, the Vaya appeals, too.
(guess my "sporty," is relative) It has 75mm BB drop-is that better
or worse for a 650b conversion?

I also guess I'm resistant to conversions because I just have an
ornery streak that wants a bike company to offer products the way I
want them! Designed around the wheels I want to use and the
specifications and details that I care about. When Kirk Pacenti first
brought 650b to mtbs and everyone was doing conversions, I went with a
custom Curtlo designed around the NeoMoto. Gonna probably keep coming
back the the NFE, the Cdale Slate, maybe a custom. Or wait and see if
something else comes along.

Alex, the NFE was inspired by your self-made frame(s), right? You're
a sporty rider as well as a tourist/camper as I recall. It must
perform pretty well with a light load/fun rides?

Steve

[Ahmet Cemiloglu]

I don't know your budget, but the best deal for a go fast 650B conversion is GT Grade Carbon. Performance Bicycle sells an exclusive SRAM Force equipped model which is $1500 cheaper than the Ultegra equipped version. It's been in my radar for a while, it has hydrolic disc brakes, a through front axle, super skinny fiber-glass filled seatstays for added comfort, and StansNoTubes wheelset which could be sold for a good amount of return. There is plenty of clearance for wide 650B tires, and it even has eyelets for full size fenders! Price is $2000, however a $30 annual membership will get you 10% back (store credit), which is $200 you can spend on a new 650B wheelset. I'm torn between this and Specialized Diverge, it's just that the SRAM equipped exclusive model is a crazy good deal for the equipment you get. It's relatively lightweight, comes with a handsome carbon finish, and a Fizik saddle.

[Justin Hughes]

Was not aware of this model. Thanks!

[B Sloma]

I saw one of those at a shop, couldn't figure out what it was.

Also can't figure out if the Open UP can take a double crank.  It does show one in an illustration.

[Steve Park]

The Open U.P. Chainring Fit section at the bottom of the page in the Specifications implies that you can run up to a 50/36 double crankset (smaller rings would be compatible too).  I think most folks are running a single ring on it because the logical trail usage fits nicely with a 1x clutch derailleur system.  I was able to get good answers on things from Open over email too.  It looks like a stellar bike if you fit one of the sizes.

BB std: BB386EVO

Chainring fit:

NOTE:   For single chainring set-ups, we recommend flat rings, not offset rings, for the best chainline. For "regular" oval rings, deduct 2 teeth from the below spec. For extreme oval rings, who knows.

Max inner ring: 36t

Max outer ring: 50t (more is overkill with the bigger tires)

Max single ring: 46t (offset rings like SRAM 1x)

Max single ring: 50t (flat rings, better cassette alignment)

[Murray Love]

Steve, on BB drop for 700C->650B conversions, my rule of thumb is that the threshold is <=70mm drop or >=270mm BB height is the safe zone for a 650B conversion. This isn't a hard and fast line: If you're going to use 42mm+ tires or short cranks, or if you're willing to tolerate a certain amount of pedal strike, you can expand these boundaries, but that's a decent starting point.

I briefly converted my Kogswell P62 (75mm BB drop) to 650B for a light tour, and with 36mm Col de la Vies and 175mm cranks, pedal strike was relatively easy to achieve. It never bothered me too much, but it was certainly noticeable.

Murray

Victoria, BC

[Philip Kim]

Masi is coming out with a Randonneur model with WTB 650bx48 tires, disc and steel. Might be work looking into?

[Sofia Torres]

And what a about the Niner BSB 9 RDO? It's a cross bike but the angles look fairly road/normal in the bigger sizes. 65-68mm bb drop. Expensive though.

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[Chris Cullum]

There is also the All City Macho King that looks like it could make a great 650B gravel racer type bike. I think it comes as a frameset as well.

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[Steve Chan]

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 9:25 AM, Murray Love <murra...@gmail.com> wrote:

I briefly converted my Kogswell P62 (75mm BB drop) to 650B for a light tour, and with 36mm Col de la Vies and 175mm cranks, pedal strike was relatively easy to achieve. It never bothered me too much, but it was certainly noticeable.

   Out of curiousity, what kind of pedals and cranks were you using?

   It seems that ~5mm of BB height could be compensated for if you are using high Q cranks and big pedals. But if you've already gone to low-Q cranks and low stack/narrower pedals, then you might have to make up the difference with shorter cranks.

[Greg Achtem]

I thought the Jamis Renegade was pretty cool when I first heard of it. Jamis's "Adventure Bike". It comes with 700C x 35 tires but I think I read it could fit 40s. Should be simple to drop in 650B x 42*

70.5 BB drop in the 58cm size.

But the cool part (to me anyway) is that they provided provision for fenders (rack too if you want) with hidden fender eyelets. I thought that was some pretty forward thinking.

*That is unless the chain stays don't swoop in towards the spokes just aft of the tire like some carbon and aluminum frames do. Can't really tell from a quick google of images, but I have a sneaky suspicion that they just might.

[Murray Love]

That's a good point. The cranks were low-Q: Suntour XC Pros set up as a compact double. But the pedals were MKS touring, which are pretty darn wide and thick. If I was using something like the Shimano A520s on my Vitus, I would have had a fair bit more clearance.

Murray

Victoria, BC

[Justin August]

I believe that SOMA is testing a disc version of the Smoothie currently called the Fog Cutter. 

-Justin

[Justin Hughes]

That sounds very promising. I really liked my Smoothie with a full carbon Ritchey fork. I wish they'd using something a little nicer than Tange Prestige and just charge more, though. I'll be keeping an eye out for the Fog Cutter, thanks. Might pair well with the ENVE GRD fork. 

[Tamaso Johnson]

Just to play devil's advocate... The NFE goes plenty fast in my experience.

I guess it depends on what characteristics of a bike make it a 'go fast bike' for you though. Sure I think it would be fun to have a full carbon bike with 650b & discs, or maybe something like a CAAD12 disc with extra tire clearance. But, if what you're looking at are all primarily steel 'gravel grinder' frames, then why not just spend some of that money you'd put into another build on putting a decent road hydro group and relatively light wheelset on the NFE? I think it's easy to put bikes into arbitrary categories like 'commuter/town bike' or 'bike touring', but really with a platform like the NFE I think it can be many things. Build you a bike that can do both.

[Justin Hughes]

Because that's just it. I don't want a bike that can do both. I've had my share of all-rounders and multi-purpose bikes. They can be fantastic, but there are ultimately compromises. I built a Soma Wolverine in the place of the NFE while I wait. TRP Spyre Carbon brakes, carbon seatpost, Velocity Lightweight convertible ATB hubs to Blunt SS rims (second front wheel with SP PD-8 hub), Rival 22 mechs and shifters and SRAM XX 42/28 double. EL SBH and Thunder Burts. It should make a relatively light NFE not considering the Colin porteur and Tubus Tara racks. 

I don't want to be bothered with removing fenders and/or racks for a Sunday morning group ride. I could ride a LHT on a group ride, but I've been there and it's silly. I want a lightweight, fat tired, go-fast bike. I am not looking primarily at steel gravel grinder bikes. I want a road bike as stated in the OP. I want road geo and handling. It's going to take some doing, but I bet I find something that makes me happy. 

[Alex Wetmore]

You are stuck on the label.

Labels kill a lot of fine bikes.  The Bridgestone RB-T sold poorly because people thought it was a touring bike, when it was actually a lousy touring bike but a nice fat tired road bike.  The XO-1 sold poorly because it looked like a weird hybrid, but it was also built with nice tubing and was more like a road bike (albeit with strange frame geometry).

Gravel grinders and Allroad bikes are a new category, which means that designs are all over the place.  A lot of them are straight up road bikes with carbon forks or carbon forks&frames, road geometry, and light tubing.  Some of them are more like adventure bikes with slack angles.  Ignore the label, look at the geometry and ride the bike to see what the tubing feels like.

For that matter the same thing is true with adventure bikes.  Some are like the NFE or Rawland designs which use fairly light tubing and steeper angles and low trail to carry gear.  Some are like the Salsa Fargo which are stout and more like rigid mountain bikes.

No one is going to sell a production road bike today that fits 40mm tires and call it a road bike.  They'll call it a gravel grinder or allroad bike because that is where the market is. If you buy a custom you can call it whatever you want.

alex

---

From: 65...@googlegroups.com <65...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Justin Hughes <justin...@me.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2016 11:37:57 AM

To: 650b
Subject: Re: [650B] Current Disc Road Frames for 650b Conversion

[Steve Park]

This is completely reasonable.

Having the right tool for the job is a good thing.

On Tuesday, May 3, 2016 at 2:37:57 PM UTC-4, Justin Hughes wrote:

Because that's just it. I don't want a bike that can do both. I've had my share of all-rounders and multi-purpose bikes. They can be fantastic, but there are ultimately compromises. .....

[Justin Hughes]

I'm not purposely stuck on the label. I'm just using the term road bike because it's a way of articulating geometry and handling that most of us can understand. I understand the marketing bit and I'm not concerned with that. I can compare geometries and am in the process of doing so, but I can't ride all the candidates. There are very few dealers anywhere near me that stock something I'd be interested in and I don't blame them. And, admittedly, I am not knowledgeable enough know exactly which geometry and variables comprise the type of ride I'm after on this bike. But, generally speaking, something that fits 42-622 is not going to convert well to 42-584 for the purposes I have in mind. 

[Ed Braley]

Okay, I've been an eternal optimist with respect to 650B bikes, but I think this exercise needs a reality check.

 

A production bike that fits a 42mm 650B tire is probably not going to have standard road bike geometry. It's going to have gravel grinder geometry; slack head angle, and longer chain stays. If you check the geometry tables for the bikes that have been suggested thus far nearly all of them are like this.

 

There is really no need to fit 42mm tires on "road bikes", so companies don't make them. And I don't understand why you're hung up on running 42's on a Sunday morning group ride. Why? Unless you're really strong you'll be at a disadvantage with the guys rolling on 700C 25mm setups.

 

Ten years ago I was looking for something similar, and the dialog here went on for days... A few of you will remember the 650B race bike threads. We had some fun, and I did build the conversions that I envisioned at the time. I'm still riding them - they're 650x38B conversions, one is a disc cyclocross bike. The industry has certainly moved further into this direction over the last decade but there are still limitations. And some of those limitations are rational. There is no market big enough to justify production level go-fast road bikes that roll on 650x42B tires. They won't sell.

 

Cannondale took a chance. The Cannondale Slate is in a category all to itself. And based on what I read in Road Bike Action, I'd say it's future is in doubt. They panned it; not a road bike, not a gravel grinder, compromised in either respect. I live in Maine and my local dealer didn't order any Slates. It's a pity because I like the idea, but I didn't vote with my wallet, so that doesn't count.

 

You might find a "road bike" that just barely fits 650x38B's, and it might have disc brakes. And you'll be looking at a slim set of wheel options with standards in a state of flux. And you'll still be at a disadvantage on your Sunday group ride when you put this all together.

 

Ed.

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Justin Hughes

To: 650b

Cc: justin...@me.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 3:06 PM

Subject: Re: [650B] Current Disc Road Frames for 650b Conversion

[Justin Hughes]

Ed,

With respect, you're making a lot of assumptions. 

It's irrelevant why I'm "hung up" on a 42mm tire. But my OP laid it out pretty clearly if you cared to read it entirely. I'm over 200# and my local pavement is crap. Sure, a 38mm will serve my purposes fine, but it alters the geometry from that of a 700x23 wheel further, so is less optimal. 

Your experience 10 years ago is nearly irrelevant as well. What was the status of wider tire accepting frames, wider quality tires and non-MTB disc frames?

What do you mean by slim set of wheel options? I've already addressed this. Uniform hub compatibility among all the frames I'd like to have in my stable would be nice, but all my wheels will have convertible hubs so it's not really an issue. 

As I said in my OP, I would imagine this would have to be a conversion. 

Lastly, why are you suggesting 42-584 tires are at a disadvantage to 25-622 tires? Of course there is no "need" to fit 42-584 tires on a road bike. That doesn't mean it's not a good idea. 

Justin

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[Rick Johnson]

Indeed, Cannondale took a risk with the Slate. As a company they have a long history of that. Sometimes their ideas are too far ahead of the market or, like now, the market segment that "gets the idea" is simply very small.

My own opinion of the Slate is that they didn't gamble quite enough. They used the Lefty because it was quick and easy to adapt to this style of bike with minimal impact on their supply chain. As bike development goes it was a fairly low cost gamble to produce what is basically a CX frame with the larger head tube using an off-the-shelf Lefty. Unfortunately for most people the Lefty is "a solution looking for a problem" but Cannondale is committed to selling it despite all opinions to the contrary.

If it was up to me I would have gone one step farther back and used a Headshok. The Lefty is an evolution of the Headshok that only was necessary due to the inherent lack of long travel expected by the MTB market. For an adventure road bike that doesn't need long travel the Headshok is perfect. It's simple, balanced, compact, rides beautifully, can take disc brakes, mount fenders and can be made to clear any tire width this type of bike could ever possibly need.

In other words, all they needed to do was bring back the Silk Road concept from 1997 and update it for wider tires... job done.

  

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

[Ed Braley]

I don't think any suspension fork is necessary on a bike like this - the bike is too expensive for most people to buy as a new paradigm. Using a carbon fork and lowering the price would help it sell. And they should tell the cycle journalists beforehand that they can't shred hard pack turns on slicks ;-)

[Rick Johnson]

The "shred-ability" factor isn't the point of having front suspension here -

Disc brakes require a stiffer fork to handle the unique loads that type of brake system creates.
Ride quality at the front end suffers as a result.
Therefore adding a simple short travel suspension to the front makes for a better ride.
And not only is it tunable for varying rider weights and loads (unlike a rigid fork) but it can also be locked for climbing efficiency.

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
One, it's completely impossible. 
Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing. 
Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

[B Sloma]

I've followed the discussion from the beginning.  It's been interesting.  

You stated you want bigger than 26 tires.  And want a go fast bike.  Why not 700x28 then?  Or 29? 

I understand the new KTM revelator will clear 32c tires (or more).  Pretty standard road bike.  But yes, slacker steering.  Isn't 32 or 33 cushy enough for fast road riding?  

Beyond that, I just see diminishing returns.  And with slacker steering, how is this really important for a Sunday group ride?  An actual race, maybe?  And haven't road bikes been trending towards slacker steering anyway?    

[Ed Braley]

Yes, Justin, I am making assumptions, and so are you.

 

I did read your original post. And all of the replies. And your follow-up posts.

 

I don't think that my experience is irrelevant. I've done enough 650B conversions to have a pretty good sense for what it entails and how geometry, ride, and general handling are effected. The difference between a 38mm and a 42mm tire has some effect, but not that much. And there are plenty of heavy guys riding 38mm and smaller tires on rough roads. However, when we're considering frame and fork clearances it can be the difference between viable for conversion or not.

 

You will be limited on wheels that are 650B, and disc, and intended to fit road cassettes. If you stick with a 10 speed road build you have more options. But most better road bikes are 11 speed now. Most 650B mountain bike wheels are 10 speed, or they use the SRAM XD driver freehub which fits a specific cassette. There is one Stan's 650B disc brake production wheel set that will fit an 11 speed road cassette. And then you have to factor rear spacing, axle diameters and QR vs. thru axle for either 10 or 11 speed systems. Do you really expect to be swapping wheels between this road bike and your MTB and NFE on a regular basis? Are you running tubeless tires on the MTB? Swapping cassettes, swapping tires? Didn't you say you wanted less maintenance?

 

And finally, yes, I'm making an assumption about your Sunday morning group rides. If they're anything like the rides we have here, they're fast. The same bike on 700x25C will be faster and accelerate quicker than on 650x42B. Even going up as large as 700x30C you will still have an advantage over the 650x42B on pavement.

 

You can build something that will work for your intended purposes, but hitting all your requirements will be a challenge.

Ed

[Ed Braley]

I don't really notice a significant difference in road feel between my carbon caliper brake forks and the carbon disc forks on my bikes. Tires do make a noticeable difference, though.

 

What you say may be true, but if the fork adds a significant cost to the bike it reduces the sales potential. Cannondale should offer a simplified Slate at a lower cost to draw more prospective buyers to the series. A suspension model is the upgrade path.

 

A base model Tiagra 4700 Slate with a carbon fork on 650x42B wheels might appeal to someone looking to try something different to compliment their regular road or mountain bikes.

[Justin Hughes]

Ed,

I said I wasn't worried about the wheels and I was serious. I'm not limited. I have a wheelset that is easily and quickly convertible between all current QR and thru axle standards (not Boost), accepts 11s road and mountain cassettes and is lightweight. It's not setup tubeless and switching tires takes just minutes. 11s road is 11s road so Campy/Shim/SRAM....doesn't matter. I'd much rather swap tires and a cassette (doubtful I would need to often) than remove racks and fenders. I'd like to have 5 wheels shared between 3 bikes. Basically, one bike would be hanging without wheels at any given time.  Seems reasonable to me. 

I disagree that for most of my road riding the 700x25 wheel gives me an advantage over 650Bx42; your experience may very well be different. 

Regards,

Justin

[Justin Hughes]

I agree and would look hard at a Slate with a full carbon fork (or better just let me buy the frame), but I'm not interested in the Lefty fork or what that entails. 

Justin

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[Harold Bielstein]

I wonder if you (anyone) would like the handling of road bike geometry when equipped with a 650Bx42 verses a 700Cx25 tire? Doesn’t look like there would be a significant difference.

On May 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Ed Braley <edbr...@maine.rr.com> wrote:

I don't really notice a significant difference in road feel between my carbon caliper brake forks and the carbon disc forks on my bikes. Tires do make a noticeable difference, though.
 
What you say may be true, but if the fork adds a significant cost to the bike it reduces the sales potential. Cannondale should offer a simplified Slate at a lower cost to draw more prospective buyers to the series. A suspension model is the upgrade path.
 
A base model Tiagra 4700 Slate with a carbon fork on 650x42B wheels might appeal to someone looking to try something different to compliment their regular road or mountain bikes. 
 

Ed.

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Hal Bielstein
hkbie...@gmail.com

[Justin Hughes]

That is precisely the point. 

Justin

On May 3, 2016, at 8:19 PM, Harold Bielstein <hkbie...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wonder if you (anyone) would like the handling of road bike geometry when equipped with a 650Bx42 verses a 700Cx25 tire? Doesn’t look like there would be a significant difference.

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[Rick Johnson]

I wouldn't argue with having several models to choose from - that is in keeping with current marketing strategies.

Ideally there would be some differentiation like this:

• "Sprint" model with rigid fork and 700x35-ish to appeal to the more speed focused road riders.
  
• "Explorer" model coming standard with 650x40-something tires for those more concerned with riding the maximum range of terrain on a simple lightweight bike.
  
• "Deluxe" model with the Headshok that maximizes versatility and comfort. Frame sizes <56cm would come standard with 650 wheels, larger frames with 700 wheels.
  

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

[Ahmet Cemiloglu]

What I understand from your input is, you want a comfortable bike that's also a blast to ride. I would focus on GT Grade Carbon and Specialized Diverge. As tested in BQ, Diverge is 650x42B compatible, and to my knowledge you can fit up to 700x38C on GT Grade. It should easily take in 650x42B tires too. It all comes down to styling, riding characteristics, and what you get for your money. Diverge is available as a frameset, however GT Grade with SRAM Force as a complete bike is cheaper and is a better deal for the money.

Sent from my iPhone

[Steven Frederick]

Yeah, I have to admit, riding my 38mm-tired Stag on rough dirt roads last night I would've been REALLY happy to have that little bit of travel up front.  I feel like a went a short round in a cage match this morning...beat up!

[Steve Park]

I see what you mean there.  I guess the perceived usefulness is of any type front suspension is going to vary with the rider's background and the intended use.  I scratch my head on the lefty Slate still.

Though the concept of a 650b CAAD12 hits a mainstream vein directly.   It would resemble the timeless C'dale joe-racer bike, but with fat tires that would be conceptually obvious in a way that adding active suspension to a road bike is not.  

Gosh, a 650b CAAD12 would be a rocket ship unlike many other 650b bikes who's essence leans more toward adventure/enduro riding.  

If only I ran the toy factory.

[Rick Johnson]

I'm not suggesting just any suspension here - I mean specifically a Lefty or Headshok.

A lot of riders on this list would probably smack their head with the realization of what they've been missing if they had the opportunity to feel the ride of a Lefty or Headshok in the context of adventure riding. The feel is immediately different than any conventional fork with which most people are familiar.

In the hope of promoting some understanding it's necessary to explain the functional differences.

A conventional fork relies on bushings that must by nature have a certain amount of looseness to operate. The result is a feeling of vague and imprecise steering. The main push towards through axles these days is in fact an attempt to band-aid the inherent weakness of "twisty legs". These bushings also must be lubricated in an oil bath, which not only requires periodic maintenance, but that results in the requirement of oil seals. Oil seals come with an effect commonly called "stiction" which is a manifestation of static friction. Simply stated the seal has a high amount of friction at the moment of zero movement. So the conventional fork slides freely while blowing through it's long travel absorbing big hits. But when the movements are very small, as in minor surface irregularities and roughness, the seals act like a loosely held clamp inhibiting suspension movement. This results in small movements and buzziness being transmitted to the rider.

By contrast the Lefty and Headshok are fundamentally different. There are no bushings, oil bath or seals. The axial movement of the fork is on bearings. You all appreciate how good roller bearing headsets are right? This is a "roller bearing fork". There is zero play in the system so steering is solid and precise like no other fork. There is no stiction so the fork tracks immediately over the smallest surface irregularities and provides a buttery smooth ride.

The only difference between the two is that the Headshok system is contained in the steering head. This limits it's maximum travel to between 60-100mm typically. The Lefty moves the system outside the head tube allowing more travel. It's a testament to the strength of the system that it only requires one fork leg to carry normal loads. The statement Cannondale throws down with the Lefty is this - in a way they are saying our fork is so superior that it only takes one leg to be vastly better than the conventional approach. And yea, it looks weird to most people.

So, for those not requiring long travel a Lefty is overkill even though it has the same ride characteristics as a Headshok. When simply riding off pavement, chip seal, gravel. washboards or any other imperfect surface the Headshok is the elegant solution. With both the difference in ride quality can be as dramatic as the change to wide tires. But paring a Headshok with 30-45mm wide tires is like chocolate and peanut butter - truly a match made in heaven.

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
One, it's completely impossible. 
Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing. 
Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

[Evan Baird]

Actually the Soma Fogcutter is going to be marketed as a road bike with 700x42mm tire clearance. I don't feel that super light tires like the Soma SV or the Compass Barlows are really up to any serious offroad use. That said, I don't think 42 is at all inappropriate for real life paved road riding. In fact riding the sample build with 35mm tires was vaguely terrifying after being on 38-42mm tires on my Stag for the past year or so.

[satanas]

Agreed re the Headshock - it's a good thing for limited travel uses.

Re 42-584 for road/training rides: Last year I rode PBP on the Soma 300g 42mm tyres, and yes, I finished. Still, the extra wheel weight and aero drag was noticeable. Compared with lightweight 2x-622 tyres acceleration was slower IME. This might not matter to the OP but the effect is real. It's also likely that most bikes which will accept 42-584 might be heavier in general than more normal road bikes; again, this may or may not matter.

I doubt I'll do much touring in future on <38mm tyres if it can be avoided, but for fast rides or randonnees I'm less convinced. There are both pluses and minuses, as with most things.

Later,
Stephen

[Steve Chan]

   For what it is worth, when I run some calculations of rotational moment of inertia for an 650B SL23 with a 42mm Babyshoe Pass ELs and 3oz of sealant, it comes out pretty much identical to the moment of inertia for a 700c SL23 with 25mm Conti GP4000S2 and a Schwalbe Extralight butyl tube.

   So if the geometry is the same, and the wheels have the same rotational moment of inertia, a fat tire 650B road bike should have no trouble keeping up on a weekend club ride. Assuming of course that the rider can keep up with the club riders on a conventional road bike.

   I haven't been able to do any A/B testing, but I feel my 650B road bike ( short wheelbase, 73/73 angles, no fenders, no dynamo, no luggage and only a fllyweight front rack) feels just as quick and responsive as when I owned a ti/carbon Serotta with 700x25 Conti GP4000 tires. Except of course that the 42mm tires make it easy to ride confidently on all kinds of mediocre surfaces and take corners at higher speeds.

   Whether the overall market is ready for such a bike or not, I think this type of bike is great for a recreational rider who doesn't aspire to ride in brevets or go camping/touring on their bike, but appreciates the benefits of fat, fast tires on a sporty bike.

"Sow a thought, reap an action. Sow an action, reap a habit. Sow a habit, reap a character. Sow a character, reap a destiny." - Samuel Smiles

[Kevan Rutledge]

My Elephant NFE is great as a rack-less, fender-less, go-fast road bike.  I have two wheelsets for it: 700c with 32mm tires and 650b with 42mm tires.  With the exception of the low trail fork, the geometry is nearly identical to my old race bike.  I primarily ride it unloaded, and haven't noticed anything odd about the handling with either wheelset.  My XL frame with Force 22 is right around 22 pounds.

If you're already getting an NFE, try it on a group ride.  You might be pleasantly surprised.

Kevan

[Stephen Poole]

On 5 May 2016 12:39 pm, "Steve Chan" <sych...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>    For what it is worth, when I run some calculations of rotational moment of inertia for an 650B SL23 with a 42mm Babyshoe Pass ELs and 3oz of sealant, it comes out pretty much identical to the moment of inertia for a 700c SL23 with 25mm Conti GP4000S2 and a Schwalbe Extralight butyl tube.

And the actual numbers are??? Still, one could for example use somewhat lighter and more aero CF rims much more easily with 622 than 584. Maybe some haven't noticed but wider aero CF rims have become the default in the pro peleton for everything except climbing stages. One can argue endlessly that these things don't make "much" or enough difference, but results in races would suggest otherwise.

>    So if the geometry is the same, and the wheels have the same rotational moment of inertia, a fat tire 650B road bike should have no trouble keeping up on a weekend club ride.

Big leap there...

> Assuming of course that the rider can keep up with the club riders on a conventional road bike.

That might be true *if* everything else was equal, but IMHO that's unlikely to be the case. While I'm sure that some people on 650b can keep up with some people on 700c, sometimes, (and vice versa), 700c does have its advantages, as does CF, etc, etc...

Later,
Stephen

[Steve Chan]

Hi Stephen,

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 8:20 AM, Stephen Poole <nsc.e...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 5 May 2016 12:39 pm, "Steve Chan" <sych...@gmail.com> wrote:
>    For what it is worth, when I run some calculations of rotational moment of inertia for an 650B SL23 with a 42mm Babyshoe Pass ELs and 3oz of sealant, it comes out pretty much identical to the moment of inertia for a 700c SL23 with 25mm Conti GP4000S2 and a Schwalbe Extralight butyl tube.

And the actual numbers are???

   I realized after sending that I had actually only put in 2oz of sealant in the calculations - but countering that is the fact that sealant isn't spinning mass, its a fluid that exerts some friction on the tire as it rotates, so adding it in as rotating mass serves as a loose upper bound (probably a *very* loose upper bound) on the rotational inertia.

   I've attached the Google Sheet I used - feel free to offer suggestions (or just copy it and tweak it yourself). I used the standard formula of I=MR^2 and I calculate the inertia for the rim and tire separately and then sum them. I set the radius to be the average of the inner and our radii of the wheel and tire. I may made have made a mistake in setting up the calculations, but I believe it is correct as a first order approximation.

​

 Wheel Moment of Inertia

​

   You can see the values for yourself - treating all of the 2oz of sealant as rotating mass yields a .2% increase in the inertia of the wheels/tires.

Still, one could for example use somewhat lighter and more aero CF rims much more easily with 622 than 584. Maybe some haven't noticed but wider aero CF rims have become the default in the pro peleton for everything except climbing stages. One can argue endlessly that these things don't make "much" or enough difference, but results in races would suggest otherwise.

   That's true, you can play with whatever variables you like. I ran the numbers for my actual wheelset/tires on my 650B, and the equivalent wheelset/tires on my old Serotta. Actually, on my old Serotta, I used 25mm GP4000, which are likely to be slower than a GP4000s2, and I had deeper section aero rims which were heavier than the SL23s, so this is actually biased in favor of the 700c wheelset.

>    So if the geometry is the same, and the wheels have the same rotational moment of inertia, a fat tire 650B road bike should have no trouble keeping up on a weekend club ride.

Big leap there...

    In the context of this thread, where a poster asked about 650B fat tire version of a 700c bike and wanted to use it for club rides instead of the equivalent 700c road bike. So in this context, we can assume the same rider, same riding position, etc...

    Even so, there are 2 main variables that I'm leaving out - feel free to call out others:

1) Rolling resistance of the tires. It may be that the Compass EL casings just don't match up to the Conti GP4000s casings for crr. On the other hand, the wider contact patch will lower the crr, all things being equal.

2) Aero drag on the wheels/tires. In wind tunnel tests, they typically quantify the difference in finish times for a race between a couple of mm difference among skinny tire/rim combos, assuming a constant speed of 30mph over the full course. I am presuming that most club rides are at much lower speeds where the time difference would drop dramatically. In my area, the club rides include significant climbing, where the aero advantage at 30mph pretty much disappears.

> Assuming of course that the rider can keep up with the club riders on a conventional road bike.

That might be true *if* everything else was equal, but IMHO that's unlikely to be the case. While I'm sure that some people on 650b can keep up with some people on 700c, sometimes, (and vice versa), 700c does have its advantages, as does CF, etc, etc...

  The argument is for the same rider, riding essentially the same road bike, but converting from 700c to 650b, using the same riding position, etc... Which is basically the premise of the thread. I'm not offering the argument that a surly disc trucker 650B with fast tires/sealant is going to keep up with a Look carbon race bike, much less that arbitrarily different riders riding arbitrarily different bikes in 650B vs 700c.

[Stephen Poole]

>> "Steve Chan" <sych...@gmail.com> wrote:

>    You can see the values for yourself - treating all of the 2oz of sealant as rotating mass yields a .2% increase in the inertia of the wheels/tires.

Okay, thanks - I wasn't sure if "close" might have meant 5-10%.

>     In the context of this thread, where a poster asked about 650B fat tire version of a 700c bike and wanted to use it for club rides instead of the equivalent 700c road bike. So in this context, we can assume the same rider, same riding position, etc...
>     Even so, there are 2 main variables that I'm leaving out - feel free to call out others:
>
> 1) Rolling resistance of the tires. It may be that the Compass EL casings just don't match up to the Conti GP4000s casings for crr. On the other hand, the wider contact patch will lower the crr, all things being equal.

^ I'd be surprised if there was much if any disadvantage here.

> 2) Aero drag on the wheels/tires. In wind tunnel tests, they typically quantify the difference in finish times for a race between a couple of mm difference among skinny tire/rim combos, assuming a constant speed of 30mph over the full course. I am presuming that most club rides are at much lower speeds where the time difference would drop dramatically. In my area, the club rides include significant climbing, where the aero advantage at 30mph pretty much disappears.

Not necessarily the case around Sydney. One of the popular Sunday morning rides includes a long flattish section before the end, with multiple sprints along the way; speeds can be high.

>   The argument is for the same rider, riding essentially the same road bike, but converting from 700c to 650b, using the same riding position, etc... Which is basically the premise of the thread. I'm not offering the argument that a surly disc trucker 650B with fast tires/sealant is going to keep up with a Look carbon race bike, much less that arbitrarily different riders riding arbitrarily different bikes in 650B vs 700c.

Fair enough, but I suspect it's the LHTs and similar that will be more 650b compatible than the Looks, in which case it's apples versus oranges - or rocks versus feathers.  :-)

Later,
Stephen (who really hopes a suitable non-custom frame can be found)

[Fred Blasdel]

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 9:22 AM, Steve Chan <sych...@gmail.com> wrote:

2) Aero drag on the wheels/tires. In wind tunnel tests, they typically quantify the difference in finish times for a race between a couple of mm difference among skinny tire/rim combos, assuming a constant speed of 30mph over the full course. I am presuming that most club rides are at much lower speeds where the time difference would drop dramatically. In my area, the club rides include significant climbing, where the aero advantage at 30mph pretty much disappears.

That's not true, just because testing is done at 30mph apparent wind doesn't mean that the effect goes away at lower speeds. In fact at 15-20mph you save more time since you're spending longer on the bike to begin with.

Aerodynamics trumps weight, even when climbing: http://flocycling.blogspot.com/2014/01/flo-cycling-great-debate-aero-vs-weight.html

And even under accelerations: http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Why_Wheel_Aerodynamics_Can_Outweigh_Wheel_Weight_and_Inertia_2106.html

Just because the extra rotational inertia "feels" slower doesn't mean it is, there's plenty of similar effects with rolling resistance.

[Justin August]

This just showed up on Craigslist. Fits the bill if you're into the cool features it has. http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/5573997243.html

-Justin

[Max]

Curtlo. The custom pricing is comparable to what many off the shelf frames cost.

[Steven Frederick]

And they're great bikes, even if they take a year to deliver. (don't
believe the 12-16 week estimate Doug typically offers) My 27.5"
(ordered when it was still 650b) is still one of the best handling
mtbs I've ever owned.

Steve

On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Max <msh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Curtlo. The custom pricing is comparable to what many off the shelf frames cost.
>

[cyclotourist]

Just took a look over at the Masi site, and happened across their CX model: http://www.masibikes.com/bikes/competition/cx-2016 

Looks like a good frame, with a 65mm BB drop, and more importantly, a nicely lugged fork with a bit of a bend in it! Crap components, but those can be swapped out. Should easily fit SBHs, and maybe even Thunder Burts.

Don't see it anywhere online, either discussion or advertisements.

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 9:59 AM, Philip Kim <phili...@gmail.com> wrote:

Masi is coming out with a Randonneur model with WTB 650bx48 tires, disc and steel. Might be work looking into?

On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 12:08:22 PM UTC-4, Justin Hughes wrote:

In the interest of increasing space and ride time while decreasing maintenance I'm looking to pare down to just a few bikes and I would like all three of them to be fit 650b disc wheels. The hardtail MTB is the easiest and I'll shop for that one later. The bikepacking/gravel/errand frame will be the Elephant NFE later this year. 

But, the 42-584 disc go-fast frame is a little harder. I can't afford a custom right now so it would need to be a production frame, which I'm sure means conversion. I've owned plenty of steel frames and my current go-fast is a Fierte full Ti. I really dig it, but I'm a bigger guy and will never be svelt again so I really prefer tires bigger than 26-622. I've never had an aluminum frame, but I don't know that I'm against one for this application. I'd think the large supple tires, carbon seat post and fork should absorb a lot. 

Anyone know of frames that would fit the bill?

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Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Chris Sanford]

And speaking of Masi, this 2017 model looks very cool: http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/reviews/first-look-2017-masi-speciale-randonneur

Chris - PDX