John Clay Rat Trap Pass Randonneuse

[John Clay]

I finished sorting out and installing the components today and this evening I built the front wheel while watching TV with my spouse. With only 400 yards of riding it became apparent that this is a very nice handling and highly responsive bicycle; the real proof will come with meaningful riding but it felt effervescent and well mannered. It's ready for road trials and final adjustments.

Frame: 969 wall tubing. I'm after durability rather than maximum frame performance.

Lugs: Alessandro Rizzato's Serie Corsa vintage pressed steel; Padua, Italy

BB Shell and chainstays: Heavily worked chainstay sockets and stays provide perfect clearance for the 60mm VO fenders. It was a bit of a grunt to get there but I couldn't be happier with how that element turned out.

Drivetrain: Stronglight 99 drive side, Stronglight 49d on the off-side until I find a mate to the '99. 42/30 rings. 2X6 which will become a 2x7 shortly, and both via a Suntour Winner freewheel.

Pedals: Old Miche.

Changers: Dura Ace front, Cyclone GT rear, Campy shift levers.

Hubs: Campy Chorus front, old Super Record rear. DB spokes @ 2mm/1.8mm.

Rims: An artifact Mavic 517 rear and a new Sun CR18 front, 36 holes.

Saddle: Will become a B17 but for now is something from my parts bin.

Headset: Tange Levin with heavy grease.

Brakes: Superbe levers x Tektro cantilevers. With nothing special pads they are strong.

Lighting: None for now but the electrical slip ring essentials, details needed for concealed wiring and tail light mounting boss are present.

Things to do: Remove the headlight mounting tab from the rack and make a better one, then get it chromed. B17 saddle. Set up the freewheel for 7 cogs. Possibly configure the rear fender for rinko; the other rinko necessities are there. Substitute Berthoud fender stays for those awful drawbolt things. Water bottle cages and better brake pads. Ride it.

John Clay

Tallahassee, Florida

[Alistair Spence]

Looks awesome John. Very nice job. Looks like it should be a lot of fun to ride.

Alistair Spence,

Seattle, WA.

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Alistair Spence,

Seattle, WA.

[Richard]

Hell of a job John. Thanks for sharing the process with us

[Eli Naeher]

On Sat, Mar 2, 2019, at 12:38 AM, John Clay wrote:

That color is 🔥. Absolutely stunning. The rack looks very well-fitted to the bike, too. Very cool.

-Eli

New York

[Ian A]

I have been closely watching the build process on this project as it is just about my idea of a perfect bicycle.

Absolutely love the concept and execution of the build. I have an ML rSogn and a couple of years ago was so obsessed with a RTP inspired rando/tourer that I had the canti posts moved for 559 wheels. Maybe a little similar conceptually, but not in the same league as John's superb design and execution.

Please post an extended ride report when ready!

IanA Alberta Canada (still very cold here).

[John Clay]

Alistair and all – thanks! I've only ridden it a little but it is fun and lively. It feels very well connected to the road/path surface.

I think the rack will be useful, versatile. I'm looking forward to seeing how the bike handles with a load on it. For now I'll just strap what ever I need to it. The decision about a larger front rack bag will come out of that.

The frame geometry and bulk dimensions are identical to my 650b x 42 BSP bike. The RTP tire, well, tires of that size and intent, got my attention sometime after starting the 650b project. After reading about Hahn and Jan's experiences in Mexico on RTP bikes, and seeing what the BSP could do, it just made all the sense in the world to build the RTP bike. I thought that the SBH was a bit large for me and fenders but it's more workable than I thought.

The crank tread is 145mm. With a little finesse and a BB change I could get it to 140 but I probably won't go to the trouble. That's pretty satisfying for accommodating un-dented, 60mm wide fenders with a mm or two clearance on each side and a little more than 25mm annular clearance between the tire and fender ID.

Ian: I adore the color, too. It's a mixture of Rustoleum Kubota Orange and Sunburst Yellow; something in the range of 3:1 if I recall. I have the notes in the shop. Where I did a good job with the spray gun it's plenty glossy; where not it's a bit matt. If I ever re-up my urethanes I'll settle on one color and it will be this orange. But the Rusto is so inexpensive and easy to touch up I'm not sure I'll ever go back. Time will tell.

The brakes! They're a bit chunky but they'll put you over the bars.

John Clay

Tallahassee

[David Cummings]

Fabulous job! I’d love to see some closeups of how the BB turned out after all your efforts.

[John Clay]

Thanks David. It's difficult to get a decent perspective but here are a couple of photos. In retrospect I probably will reduce the crank tread from 145 to 140-ish in order to reduce the chainline. Right now it's about 46mm. That's not a huge deal but it will bug me if I don't. I'll go for a few more rides before I do that, tune up the wheels and do a few other tweaking tasks.  

[Daniel Jackson]

That is fantastic John. A true blivet if I ever saw one. What BB shell did you use here?

Thanks,
D.

[John Clay]

It's a plain vanilla 68mm LB100R shell, here: http://ceeway.com/NEWPARTSPAGES/Cast%20BB%20Shells.htm

It originally had a 14 degree included angle between the CS sockets. I forget exactly what it measured afterwards but something a bit over 30 degrees as I recall.

I'm not superstitious but the wider tire rationale made sense and the tires do work! It felt like they were slower in the soggy, sticky areas of my ride but that makes sense and is consistent with what I've heard from others.

Last night, while measuring chainline again, I remembered that I had dished the rear wheel as little as possible consistent with fitting a normal 6 speed into the rear space. There's only a mm between the cog and DO. It was my attempt at maximizing wheel strength; I wasn't thinking about chainline six months ago. It turns out, accidentally, that the front and rear chainlines are, as best I can measure, essentially the same at 47mm. So it's wider than the normal of 43.5, but it is straight. If I add a small dent to the right CS, bevel the pedal bosses on the crank arm and redish the wheel then a 43.5 chainline and 140mm crank tread can be achieved. That's pretty neat for such a fat tire and fender. Its not pressing in the least but as a point of honor I'll probably make the modifications in the next few months.

Changing out the eyebolt fender stays to Berthoud units....that is pressing. It looks like there will be no toe clip overlap if I do it. At the very least any collisions will be glancing and not hang anything up.

John

[John Clay]

David - I forgot to add the chainstay photos. Here are a couple.

 

 

John Clay

Tallahassee, Florida

[David Cummings]

Thanks for the photos - amazing work.  It's not really possible to tell what you did to achieve double the angle on the chain stays.

David "I love it when a plan comes together" in MT

[John Clay]

Photo set of the construction starts here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/albums/72157671170583438

John

[David Cummings]

To clarify, I meant that in a complimentary way: the cuts and modifications just disappeared after the brazing, filing, sanding, etc.

On Wednesday, March 6, 2019 at 10:12:11 PM UTC-5, David Cummings wrote:

...It's not really possible to tell what you did to achieve double the angle on the chain stays.

[John Clay]

I was just looking at the BSP and RTP bikes in the BB shell/chainstay area. I just have to say that getting dentless (fender and chainstays) clearance for the BSP, 50-ish mm fender is a piece of cake compared to getting it for a 60-ish mm fender and the RTP. The new Herse BB shell and chainstays should make that area on a BSP frame plug and play. But where's the challenge?....Seriously, they're worthwhile but I've been working with an old stash that needed to be used. But the next frame might get'em; a friend wants something and for his height it ought to be the SBH.

John Clay

Tallahassee, Florida

[John Clay]

It was a cool, gray afternoon in the woods; it had been gray all day. A cooler, gray evening was in the cards. With my better half out of town I thought that home-made mac & cheese, and beer seemed the perfect dinner; Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid on the Tube. But I needed the ingredients. Why not use the RTP rather than burning a gallon of gas? I've got about a hundred miles on it now and neither the bike nor the rack have been used in combat. The result, in little words? It does everything meaningfully better than the BSP. That, in a nutshell, encapsulates it. So here it is on today's bona fide mission to the Publix Supermarket. Twenty pounds of beer, cheddar cheese and bike lock, and it still handles superbly. You know there's some mass up there, and it took a quick re-calibration, but the bike handled just as predictably as with no load. Walking speed was woogedy but once up to any sort of transport speed it was perfect, including a couple of downhill sweepers.You know the mass is there but once you've adjusted your input accordingly it just doesn't matter.

John Clay

Tallahassee, FL

[Ian A]

This is officially my dream bicycle. If I knew how to design bicycles, this is what I would have designed, right down to 969 standard gauge tubing. Superb and the Tom Waits style poetry somehow makes it even better.

Seriously enjoyable ride-report. Please keep them coming!

IanA Alberta Canada

[satanas]

I'm not sure "meaningfully" counts as a little word - except perhaps amongst Indian academics! - but everything else looks good. ;-)

Later,
Stephen

[Eric Nichols]

Props not only for the bike, but also for the superb choice of liquid cargo AND the matching water bottle!

Eric Nichols
Who learned to build wheels from Ken who later founded Sierra Nevada Brewing Company

[John Clay]

You caught that! Full marks!! And that is cool, your wheelbuilding instructor!

I didn't notice what I'd done until late last night.

Just back from a 25 mile mixed ride with another trip to the grocery store for a couple of things. The bike is just crazy good. I'm gonna get a basket that fits the rack. It's just too convenient to be able to pick a few things up after a ride. My large and heavy On-Guard lock doesn't bounce around on the rack; it stays quietly in place off road and on.

I rode some more fire breaks and a dirt road today with a nice, deep strip of soft, fine sand on one side. There hasn't been much rain lately and so automobile traffic has pushed the fines to the side of the road. I was going probably 14 mph and the tires floated across it. I know this road and that sand intimately; that the tires didn't break through the surface but just rolled across the top is remarkable.

John Clay

Tallahassee

[John Clay]

When I built my frame for the Rat Trap Pass tire I included the foundational accoutrements for Rinko, including a brush capsule receptacle in the HT for a slip-ring assembly, but wasn't certain I'd go to the trouble to fully implement either. Finding myself over the moon with the tire and bike I've decided to go ahead with it. To my mind this is the perfect bike for it. The RTP bike is in the stand and I'm on the BSP bike.

The first task is installation of the slip-ring and brass brush ensemble; the other elements will follow. This is my third slip-ring project. A half dozen photos start here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/47573181622/in/dateposted/

John Clay

Tallahassee, FL

On Saturday, March 2, 2019 at 12:37:56 AM UTC-5, John Clay wrote:

[David Cummings]

John,

Absolutely amazing work! 

The connector on a spring inside the frame, how do you compress it before inserting the steerer?

Sent from Dave's rockin' iPhone

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[John Clay]

Today's porteur rack modifications start here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/47662857681/in/photostream/

Since the rack will have to come off for rinko I decided that it would be prudent to make the struts removable, lest they get bent.

John Clay

Tallahassee, Florida

[John Clay]

David,

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner.

I used a wooden 3/4" (I think) dowel inserted from the top of the HT. I depress the brush with a finger and then use the dowel (from above) to hold it there while I insert the steerer. I also wrap a piece of paper around the steerer threads to protect the brush. It's a bit fiddly, and I plan to refine the method with things that can be carried unobtrusively, but it works well enough.

It's a bit of a bummer to have the RTP bike in the stand while I configure it for rinko:

Removable rack struts (complete)

Headlight arm (in process)

Spiral wire guides on the outside of the arm (so the wires can be freed from the arm for transport) (in process)

Rinko rear fender

Slip ring + brush installation (complete)

Chain hanger way up the seat stay

Upper headset nut modification for allen wrench tightening

Headlight + hub + taillight

The RTP is phenomenal. If I was 6' + tall I'd be on the SBH but at 5-8 the RTP (and BSP) is perfect from both operational and aesthetic (very important to me) perspectives. The great news is that I'm enjoying the BSP while the RTP is out of service. Being forced (life is tough, here) to ride my superlative (I may be biased) BSP bike has reminded me that it's pretty damn phenomenal too. And now that I have an excellent 2.5", 0-60 psi, ASME Grade A pressure gauge on my pump (accurate AND I can read the dial) I actually know what pressure is in the tires. That is proving to be enlightening.

Best,

John

On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 9:22:55 PM UTC-4, David Cummings wrote:

John,

Absolutely amazing work! 

The connector on a spring inside the frame, how do you compress it before inserting the steerer?

Sent from Dave's rockin' iPhone

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 65...@googlegroups.com.

[David Cummings]

Thanks John! That's good info.  For the few times that you will Rinko the bike, I can see that it should work fine.  Maybe a spare spoke would work to hold the spring down if it's not too flexible?

As a tinkerer at heart, this has been a fascinating and very enjoyable thread to follow.

Cheers,

David in MT

[John Clay]

The fenders are in the middle of a rinko conversion. A "rear" fender has been transformed into a substantial-coverage front fender; I dressed up the front of the front fender. Two "front" fenders are becoming the rear; the two are long enough that the coverage will go from about four inches below the chainstay, to help keep the drivetrain cleaner, to pretty far around the rear of the wheel.

Photos are in this vicinity of the project flickr album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/47685893772/in/dateposted/

John Clay

Tallahassee, FL

[David Cummings]

Sorry if I missed it already, what fenders did you decide to go with? Only a few are 60mm or more.

David In MT

[John Clay]

Velo Orange, smooth 60mm aluminum. Two sets. The rear rinko fender was made of the two fronts. The front fender was made from one of the rears...so I have a spare. Fender stays are Berthoud, from Rene Herse Bicycles. The rinko nut, also from RH, is cool. I used a pair of sockets to shape the divot for the top of the rinko nut.

A shout out to Peter Weigle for sharing photos of his peerless work, without which I'd be lost in the wilderness.

I may trim both ends of the rear fender a little. The wheel can be removed as is but I wouldn't mind a little more clearance for the job. At this point the bike is fully rinko configured if I carry a combo pedal/headset wrench. When I get my hands on a spare headset locknut, it will require a trip into town, I'll braze a sleeve to it for snugging with a long allen key. Pedals (Speedplay Frogs, delivery tomorrow) will retain standard spindles; I'll just deal with that hopefully by simply leaving them on.

The front rack, now with removable front struts, can pack decently flat and more importantly will not suffer bent struts from shipping. I may add a short tombstone and decaleur to anchor the Berthoud front bag that lives on the BSP bike. I'll almost certainly get a basket; that would be awfully handy. The lighting/gen-hub slip-ring infrastructure is installed. It'll get gen-hub and lights in due course.

It needs a little tweaking here and there to get to 99.9% perfect, but it's ready to go.

Here are the results of the past few days:

John Clay

Tallahassee, Florida

[John Clay]

Slip-ring improvements necessary to avoid damaging the wire during installation/removal in the frame:

Working on rinko packing. I don't have the optimum arrangement figured out yet. It certainly makes a small, tidy package.

John Clay

Tallahassee, Florida

[Brad]

You could substitute r clamps for the eyebolts at the fenders without buying new stays.  Someday you might find an old frame with unthreaded bosses that needs the eyebots at the dropout end.

[John Hawrylak]

John

Great work.  What diameter tubing did you use?   

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[John Clay]

Sorry John, I missed this post! Conventional diameter tubing with 9/6 walls in the main triangle.

John

[John Clay]

This is the second and final Rustoleum-fail repaint. It's a Metallic orange that really pops out at you; much more-so than the photo communicates. The PPG guy for this area shot it and he's a lot more skilled than I am. If you look at the clear too long, it feels like you're falling right through it. Couldn't be more pleased and now I can get back to my regular routine including some riding.

My generator + lights are on the BSP frame. Once I decide on the final rack config I'll probably add lights to this bike, too.

[Eli Naeher]

Lovely color. What was the failure mode of the Rustoleum?

Thank you,

-Eli

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• 48837484593_470cdba813_o.jpg
  

[John Hinton]

What crank are you running?

- JH

[John Clay]

Eli posted: Lovely color. What was the failure mode of the Rustoleum?

Thanks Eli. Rust pimples started appearing on the top tube, apparently from sweat. That happened on both Rusto bikes and a third that had mechanically damaged paint over which I slapped some Rusto primer in an attempt at a quick, short term fix. It looks like Rustoleum, which is an oil based paint, doesn't prevent salt from getting to the metal. Modern automotive finishes are vastly superior but I wanted to try a simpler, far less expensive and less toxic system. But it doesn't do what it needs to do.

John Hinton posted: What crank are you running?

It's a Stronglight 99! 86mm BCD with a 28t minimum ring size. I can get pretty low gears with it.

John Clay

Tallahassee, Florida

John Clay

Tallahassee, Florida

[Michael F.]

Needs something a little nicer for a backdrop !

Looks Really Good,

Michael F.

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[Jeffrey Kane]

Hi John - such a great bike - and maybe even a greater flickr album (!) I'll admit to being perplexed by BB Height vs. BB Drop measurements (my brain wants the BB Drop number) ... do you have that listed somewhere? Is the 270 note on your geo-drawing the BB Height?

When you get a chance, of course / jsk

On Saturday, March 2, 2019 at 12:37:56 AM UTC-5, John Clay wrote:

I finished sorting out and installing the components today and this evening I built the front wheel while watching TV with my spouse. With only 400 yards of riding it became apparent that this is a very nice handling and highly responsive bicycle; the real proof will come with meaningful riding but it felt effervescent and well mannered. It's ready for road trials and final adjustments.

Frame: 969 wall tubing. I'm after durability rather than maximum frame performance.

Lugs: Alessandro Rizzato's Serie Corsa vintage pressed steel; Padua, Italy

BB Shell and chainstays: Heavily worked chainstay sockets and stays provide perfect clearance for the 60mm VO fenders. It was a bit of a grunt to get there but I couldn't be happier with how that element turned out.

Drivetrain: Stronglight 99 drive side, Stronglight 49d on the off-side until I find a mate to the '99. 42/30 rings. 2X6 which will become a 2x7 shortly, and both via a Suntour Winner freewheel.

Pedals: Old Miche.

Changers: Dura Ace front, Cyclone GT rear, Campy shift levers.

Hubs: Campy Chorus front, old Super Record rear. DB spokes @ 2mm/1.8mm.

Rims: An artifact Mavic 517 rear and a new Sun CR18 front, 36 holes.

Saddle: Will become a B17 but for now is something from my parts bin.

Headset: Tange Levin with heavy grease.

Brakes: Superbe levers x Tektro cantilevers. With nothing special pads they are strong.

Lighting: None for now but the electrical slip ring essentials, details needed for concealed wiring and tail light mounting boss are present.

Things to do: Remove the headlight mounting tab from the rack and make a better one, then get it chromed. B17 saddle. Set up the freewheel for 7 cogs. Possibly configure the rear fender for rinko; the other rinko necessities are there. Substitute Berthoud fender stays for those awful drawbolt things. Water bottle cages and better brake pads. Ride it.

John Clay

Tallahassee, Florida

[Scott Stulken]

I'm not John, but I'm 99% sure the "64" on the diagram means 64mm of BB drop.  Half of the 668mm wheel OD, minus 64mm BB drop would get us the 270mm BB height.  :^)

- Scott

[John Clay]

Jeffery: Thanks for the kind words. I just love this bike! And Scott, reply below yours, is correct; BB height is 270, BB drop is 64mm.

BB height vs drop? In as much as pedal clearance and strike are what we're trying to manage we're all after a certain BB centerline height but the builder needs to figure the drop since that's the measurement that's used on the frame fixture.

I should get a BB height measurement with the bike loaded with rider and gear, just to see how much it changes with squishy tires.

John Clay

Tallahassee, Florida

[Stephen Poole]

So John, the tyre radius is ~334mm, yes? I have one or two frames these might fit on - if the exchange rate improves. Id be very interested to see how much the tyres drop too, though aren't we supposed to inflate them so it's ~15%? With a nominal width of 54mm (and I'm guessing a bit less height) that would be about 8mm, giving a sagged BB height around 262mm.

Later,

Stephen (who likes the BB to be 260-265mm *before* the tyres are loaded) 

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[John Clay]

I am officially off of my Baby Shoe Pass vs. Rat Trap Pass bike fence.

Rat Trap Pass, hands down. I've known that for a long time but I still had clipless pedals and my lights on the BSP in spite of the BSP being the bike I always picked and often wanting to ride with whatever happened to be on my feet; I wish RAIDs would fit but that's a minor quibble.

I just finished moving the lights to the RTP and added a small Wald basket. The front rack struts are bolted at both ends and so can be removed for travel; the wires are removable from the cork-screw guides on the struts, without tools,

The BSP bike is now my fenderless Juniper Ridge drop bar dirt, until I build a purpose built replacement.

It is monumentally nice to have the combination of all weather, night/day sporting performance, utilitarian use, outstanding crappy road competency and general handling, comfort, and allroad capability that the RTP and SBH type/size tires offer, in one bike.

Moving the lights and hubs around is a fair bit of work but aside from some wheel and fender tuning it's done, and there isn't any going back. If I pretty much rode only rural asphalt roads or nothing but nice, recreational asphalt bicycle trails, I'd likely prefer the BSP, but that isn't close to my riding profile.

With the right string, deburred holes, epoxy to join string and copper in a short and slim joint, not too small holes, and a good shop vac to suck them through it wasn't too bad this time.

John Clay

Tallahassee, Florida

[John Clay]

"on the BSP in spite of the RTP being the bike I always picked"

[Dan Vee]

Bike looks awesome!  I seem to be at the same conclusion.  I like the baby shoes for mostly road but would rather have the SBH/JR on for anything else.  

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[David Cummings]

Wait until you try the new Humptulips Ridge ELs!

[Ryan Witt]

They are indeed excellent! Confirmed they follow the RTP tradition of being 2.1”. Just under 53mm on my partners’ 23mm rims after a little time to stretch.

On Mar 27, 2021, at 10:11 AM, David Cummings <flath...@gmail.com> wrote:

Wait until you try the new Humptulips Ridge ELs!

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[Stephen Poole]

Surely there ought to be a 584 version of these eventually? That would be more useful to me than 559.

@ Ryan is that 23mm internal or external width?

Later,

Stephen

[Ryan Witt]

> Surely there ought to be a 584 version of these eventually? That would be more useful to me than 559.

There have been rumblings. Can’t wait.

> @ Ryan is that 23mm internal or external width?

Internal. Stans Crest MK3

[Stephen Poole]

Thanks Ryan - I have the same rims in 584, so that's a good indication. I think 53-584 RH knobbies, plus 38-584 ELs on the other wheels ought to handle just about everything. ;-)

Later,

Stephen

[John Clay]

Yesterday a GCN article noted ten steel rando bikes at PBP; amazingly one of mine was included and had a link to this thread. That being the case I figured I'd post the URL to my Flickr account so GCN readers could see some relevant framebuilding photos:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/albums

Article link here:

https://www.globalcyclingnetwork.com/tech/features/best-randonneur-bikes-paris-brest-paris

Kinda blows my mind.

I hope y'all are doing well!

Best, John

[Greg Achtem]

“Isn’t that heavy steel bike with those big fat tires slow?”, says almost everyone reading that article.

Very cool, John!

On Aug 26, 2023, at 20:12, John Clay <nice.c...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[tto...@gmail.com]

Congratulations John! Nice work.  I'm running RTP Extralights on the commuter and love them!

[lena...@gmail.com]

Well-earned recognition John. Congratulations!

[David Cummings]

Whenever you’re ready to start production, just let us know! :)

David in MT

[John Clay]

All,

Thanks for the kind words and encouragement! I must say it's nice to hear.

Over the years, and recently/now, I've had requests to build these sorts of bicycles and I've always wanted to but not as a professional, not full time, not a real business, and that has posed a number of hurdles, liability protection being a big one. But I had a brain wave last night and I'm exploring an option that might make it possible (bicycle for materials and contributions to things I care about). I'll get back to y'all after I get a read on the feasibility...which will be after the hurricane that's bearing down on us.

I had a feeling that the Gulf temps would ramp the intensity up and it looks like it will; wind shear is pretty low now too. I see that my fellow FSU alum Steph Abrams along with Big Jim Cantore are on patrol! They're gonna bring us all home safely (chuckles). It's pretty fun to watch the dramatic TV coverage but underneath it's damned serious. Hopefully none of the dozen or so 100' pines or other big sticks will fall on our casa....but trees are gonna fall; crap shoot but it's sobering to realize that a whole bunch of folks in other parts of the world are in situations orders of magnitude worse than this; I can't help but feel for them.

Well, over and out for the time being and thanks again for all the nice comments!

Cheers,

John

Tallahassee

[David Cummings]

Be safe!