Looking for a 42 Rene Herse Outer Chainring and Came Across Andel

[Gary Jacobson]

Compass has been out of 42 tooth outer chainrings for their Rene Herse crank for a while and I desperately need one.  If any one has one to sell, please let me know. 

In searching for possible options I came across this      http://www.andel.com.tw/products/products_show.php?language=_eng&pid=40&cid=18  

I don't recall if this company's offerings have been posted here, on in groups with some overlap of readership, so I thought to share the link.

Gary Jacobson

Rosendale, NY

[Steve Chan]

   Looks like they may be the actual manufacturer of the compass cranks. You would kind of expect that Compass has the distribution rights in the USA.

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[satanas]

Or maybe they were just "inspired" by Compass? Since they're saying 160-175mm and Compass are 165/171/177 (IIRC) their crank lengths don't appear to line up. There's no real info other than the pic though - Q, spindle length, BCD and intermediate arm lengths aren't stated.

Later,
Stephen

[Igor Belopolsky]

Heres a BikeForums post from 2014. These are not new.

http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/983464-andel-3-arms-crankset-rs3m-237pw.html

Discussed here before: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/650b/sNf6ZKGn5d8

Buy them here: https://www.velovitality.co.uk/products/andel-3-pin-classic-double-chainset

[mitch....@gmail.com]

Thanks for the links Gary and Igor.

Listed as 94 bcd (3 hole) which is different I think from the Compass RHerse cranks which have a smaller bcd.

No sign of where you can order rings, either as replacement or is other sizes are available. 

--Mitch 

[Igor Belopolsky]

Compass are 70bcd

[Stephen Poole]

It cannot possibly be 94bcd, given the smallest ring that fits 94bcd five arm cranks is 29T, or 28T for Wolftooth offset 1x rings. Andel are saying 42x24 is possible on their website, implying at most about 74bcd. It would be nice if the Compass rings fitted, but that wouldn't comply with Murphy's Law.

[Scott Stulken]

Yeah, there's gotta be a typo somewhere.  When I count the teeth of the inner ring in this picture, I get 30:  http://www.andel.com.tw/Archive/_eng/products/RS3M-237PW_B1.jpg  You can see the ring can't get much smaller before it starts impinging on the bolt holes.  I've been tempted by that crank in the past, because 94 BCD/30T is plenty small for my needs without going all the way to 70 BCD.  The main things that stopped me were availability and a lack of feedback from others.

- Scott  (aka ThermionicScott on BikeForums)

[mitch....@gmail.com]

I've said this before so sorry for the broken record, but I can't see the value of getting a crankset when there is reduced likelihood I'll be able to buy replacement chainrings when the originals wear out. 

I think people on this and related lists are putting in lots of miles, wearing out chainrings, and needing replacements. 

Do people consider classic-look cranks to be disposable now and go looking for another crank when rings wear? Or do they build, ride, and sell on their bikes at an interval less than chainring wear? 

I've had this issue on recent builds where I'm looking for a wide-range double that lets me use a 30t small ring. I was interested in the IRD Defiant crank for example, but IRD does not seem to support it by making their classic-look rings available. Others have found that TA still makes decent looking rings in 94 bcd that fit the IRD so that crank is more viable than I thought. I like this Andel crank but it's a risky buy if we can't even rely on suppliers to provide accurate bcd dimensions much less a source of rings. The Andel site lists chainrings only in 144, 135, 130, 74, and four-bolt mtb rings. 

This situation led me to see the value in Compass's R.Herse crank which is ironic considering OP Gary's predicament of long unavailability of 42t outer chainring. Whatever the production timeline and availability problems, at least Jan and Compass have a commitment to the idea that cranks should be long-lasting components that people will use a lot and need new rings. Let's hope they can work out the production and availability problems because they're the only supplier I can find who cares about chainring choice for gearing and ring replacement. VO seems to have have similar supply problems for their 50.4 rings. 

This situation makes me value the idea of well-designed 110/74 or 130/74 doubles cranks for wide-range two-ring set-ups. 

Maybe the market can only support 2-3 bcds for classic looking rings. Maybe it's too much to expect or hope, amidst the growing 1x trend, that producers will value the small market for traditional looking cranks/rings for wide range compact doubles. 

--Mitch 

[Greg Achtem]

Although I've never seen one with un-stock or mis-matched rings, the White Industries VBC crank should solve many of these problems. Has anyone gone crazy with the options on this crank?

--

[Justin Hughes]

I don't believe it does since the outer ring is proprietary, right? Presumably you can put any 5 bolt inner ring on there, but like you I have never seen it done. 

Justin

[Philip Kim]

why i went with the compass cranks. i didn't even know they made a 42t chainring. 

44t with a 12-28 is perfect for me, though I can see how a 42t option would be desirable as well.

[Gary Jacobson]

I just learned from Compass by telephone that they expect 42 outer chainrings some time before winter. Efforts in the past to get info via email didn't succeed, and I just figured it was because there was no information for them to share.

I will be stocking up on chainrings.

I like the Rene Herse cranks for many reasons, though have some concerns all of which have been illuminated in the forums.  I'd buy another set for sure unless there was something more standard available with a similar Q, and that could be easily set up as a double 42/28. Strength, weight and appearance all factor in. I'm always looking but haven't come up with anything.

Wish there was another source for 70 bcd three arm chain rings.

Gary Jacobson

Rosendale, NY

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[Evan Estern]

I use the White VBC.  I would have preferred to get the Rene Herse, but I found a great deal on the Whites so they were over $100 less.  They have served very well for over 7k miles.  Still on the original rings, although I swap between a 28 and a 30 on the inside for some events.  Shifting is flawless even over an 18 tooth gap (46/28).  

On Wednesday, October 4, 2017 at 11:07:22 AM UTC-4, Greg wrote:

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[Andy Bailey Goodell]

I've put on 35k+ miles now, which might be peanuts to some, but seems like a lot to me. Last month was the first time I bought replacement chainrings. I think I bought and sold bikes enough in the past, and had several in the fleet at all times, so I just never put enough miles on any one drivetrain to need new rings up front. Depending on many factors, I might still consider a one-time crankset at $200 over a probably replaceable one that costs double. There's no guarantee that Compass or any other brand will be around several years from now when I might want new rings.

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 11:00 AM, <mitch....@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Steve Palincsar]

So buy the replacements now and keep them in stock.  It only becomes a problem if you die first, and at that point it's not your problem anyway.

On 10/04/2017 09:38 PM, Andy Bailey Goodell wrote:

I've put on 35k+ miles now, which might be peanuts to some, but seems like a lot to me. Last month was the first time I bought replacement chainrings. I think I bought and sold bikes enough in the past, and had several in the fleet at all times, so I just never put enough miles on any one drivetrain to need new rings up front. Depending on many factors, I might still consider a one-time crankset at $200 over a probably replaceable one that costs double. There's no guarantee that Compass or any other brand will be around several years from now when I might want new rings.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Stephen Poole]

There are a few options for 42x28 or similar. It's possible with Sugino OX series 110/74 cranks, 42x29 is possible with 94bcd (several choices), smaller is possible with a 104/64 double spider (available from Cannondale and some SRAM road cranks), etc, etc. There are other options, including custom rings, obsolete cranks, etc.

FWIW, I'm planning on using older Cannondale Holliwgram cranks (Q=141mm) on the next/last bike, with a B.O.R. Germany 104/64 spider, KCNC 42x29/27 rings and (maybe) a 4iii retrofit power meter on the left crank. Just missed a set on eBay yesterday.  :-(

I agree with Steve's idea; personally holding a little stock of obscure items isn't a big deal.

Later,

Stephen

On 5 Oct 2017 12:44 pm, "Steve Palincsar" <pali...@his.com> wrote:

So buy the replacements now and keep them in stock.  It only becomes a problem if you die first...

[Lee Legrand]

Find out how long it takes to wear out your chain ring base on your personal style and time your on the bicycle.  Then subtract, 90-(your age) and that is probably the number of years you will be riding to but if you think you will go longer, increase.  Then divide that number by the time it takes to wear our your chainring.  That is how much you need to stock.

Example: I am 50 years old

Chain ring needs replacement every 8 years

Plan to stop riding at 95 years of age

95-50= 45 years

45/8=5.625 or 6 chain rings to keep in stock.  You are then good and you do not have to buy them all at once.  Like once a year to get your stock for a lifetime.

[Paul Sherman]

I have the Sugino's on my main bike and have no complaints so far - it's nice to be able to remove the cranks for travel using only a 5mm Allen wrench. I got my set for around ~$250 shipped from the UK, which puts them at a little over half the price of RH. I do think the RH are the prettiest cranks out there, I'd definitely buy a set if I had the budget.

Paul
Beijing

[Steve Palincsar]

You all might think this is just an amusing exercise.  But it is not.  I still recall the shock, horror and dismay I felt when I learned for the first time that new freewheels of the sort that I had been using on my Santana tandem were no longer available.  Oh, sure, there were plenty of freewheels, but not tandem grade freewheels.  I'd been so happy for so long Just Riding Around I never bothered to keep my eye on what was happening in the market, and the first inkling I had was "Oops, too late."  

But your formula, Lee, is dead wrong.  Chain rings need replacement due to wear, which is on a mileage and not a year basis.  You may think you have a stable annual mileage now, but that can change dramatically: get a new bike, and suddenly it's getting all the miles while the older members of the family languish (at least, until the new wears off); have an unfortunate life event and you can be off the bike for months or years.  So planning for 45 years and 6 chain rings is fanciful to the point of humor (unless that in fact was the point and I just didn't get it).  Keeping your eye on things and getting the next replacement in stock well before you need it, now that's practical.  You can even look for sales, or couple a purchase with something else in order to reduce shipping charges, etc.

It also helps to avoid "trendy."  Trendy today, gone tomorrow has been my experience.

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[satanas]

@ Paul: Do you have any issues with ankle clearance with the Suginos? That's my concern with them, as I had a set of Dura-Ace 7800 cranks with outboard bearings and my right ankle tended to rub/hit pretty severely; I don't have that problem with lower profile cranks, like 7410, most BB30s, etc. Otherwise the Suginos tick all the boxes, as they're available in the right length, chainrings are relatively standard, etc.

If Sugino made a low profile square taper or BB30 native version of the OX cranks I'd have bought some ages ago! (And yes, I know the OXs can be made to fit BB30 frames, but that doesn't solve my clearance issues.)

Later,
Stephen

[Lee Legrand]

But your formula, Lee, is dead wrong.  Chain rings need replacement due to wear, which is on a mileage and not a year basis.  You may think you have a stable annual mileage now, but that can change dramatically: get a new bike, and suddenly it's getting all the miles while the older members of the family languish (at least, until the new wears off); have an unfortunate life event and you can be off the bike for months or years.  So planning for 45 years and 6 chain rings is fanciful to the point of humor (unless that in fact was the point and I just didn't get it).  Keeping your eye on things and getting the next replacement in stock well before you need it, now that's practical.  You can even look for sales, or couple a purchase with something else in order to reduce shipping charges, etc.

Find out how long it takes to wear out your chain ring base on your personal style and time your on the bicycle.  Then subtract, 90-(your age) and that is probably the number of years you will be riding to but if you think you will go longer, increase.  Then divide that number by the time it takes to wear our your chainring.  That is how much you need to stock.

Never said it was based on a yearly bases and my answer was based on stock needed to accumulate so he never run out if Compass stops produces that size he wants.  So if he needs 8-42 teeth rings based on his he wears thru them and the time he think he will be cycling to (90 or 95 years of age).  I said in the last statement, he does not need to buy them all at ones but purchase one a year to build his stock up.

[Lee Legrand]

One more thing, my response was a response of having rare parts in stock in case they are no longer available and should be taken as such.  Again, there is no rush to get them and he does not need to get the whole thing in one shot but if he feels that this is important to him and he will like to have spare available, just in case, it is up to him. We cannot know what the future will hold but if that is the case, why stock up on anything and so the question of having one handy is moot.  Get it when you need it and if his chain ring made by compass is no longer available, so be it. Stock is just in case and it is understood that things come about in life but if he has too many, because of life circumstances forces him to not have the ability to ride, he could always sell them here.

[Jim Bronson]

This situation makes me value the idea of well-designed 110/74 or 130/74 doubles cranks for wide-range two-ring set-ups. 

That's what I'm using!  Ultegra 6503 and 44/28 with no big ring.  I'm very happy with this setup. 

-Jim

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[Brad]

My best guess is that it is an imitation aimed at a developing market for looks.
This was the original announcement on the revival of Rene Herse cranks.
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/07/06/rene-herse-cranks/

The sizing suggests to me that Sugino forges the Rene Herse crank, but that is based on 171 having been Sugino's crank size when everybody else was making them 170.

Visually they look different.  The Andel crank looks more like early three arm Japanese cranks which evolved into the Sugino Maxy crank. 
http://bmxmuseum.com/forsale/20160418_15465757183831ae_blowup.jpg   Just looking at it brings back adolescent angs, but it was an affordable cotterless crank in an age where steel cottered cranks were on their way out.

There were at one time a lot of three armed steel cottered cranks.
The bike boom demanded them.  http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=5B6F0651-4BAF-4C02-9B22-77A022A10D9F&Enum=115

There were also cotterless variants from at least Campagnolo and TA.
http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=1c9f2b57-2f2b-4d7b-95c3-3c3a8a807f28&Enum=115
and
http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mziW-VtA-o4KI-CYUt-1VZA.jpg  

[Greg Walton]

No need to guess, Jan Heine has many blog posts on the cranksets. Here is a list:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/category/components/rene-herse-cranks/

A good one on manufacturing:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2015/03/04/why-not-made-in-u-s-a/

Made in Taiwan, but hand polished in the USA! 

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/08/17/meet-our-polisher/

Greg

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[njh...@gmail.com]

On Friday, 6 October 2017 08:59:50 UTC+11, satanas wrote:

@ Paul: Do you have any issues with ankle clearance with the Suginos? That's my concern with them, as I had a set of Dura-Ace 7800 cranks with outboard bearings and my right ankle tended to rub/hit pretty severely; I don't have that problem with lower profile cranks, like 7410, most BB30s, etc. Otherwise the Suginos tick all the boxes, as they're available in the right length, chainrings are relatively standard, etc.

If Sugino made a low profile square taper or BB30 native version of the OX cranks I'd have bought some ages ago! (And yes, I know the OXs can be made to fit BB30 frames, but that doesn't solve my clearance issues.)

Why not just setup a standard low profile square taper touring crank as a 110/74 BCD double? That's what I did with a Sugino XD; setup as a 38/26 double. I ride pronounced toes-out, and need plenty of ankle clearance, and these cranks provide it. I cut the teeth off an old 42t chainring to make a chainguard - not necessary, but I think the crank looks nicer with it there. With 135mm rear spacing, I get a good chainline with the cranks on a 107mm BB and a 2mm spacer under the drive side cup:

[WMdeR]

Dear Brad,

The Herse crank is warm forged in Taiwan--not Sugino. Not my story to tell.

I will say that the Andel cranks I've used (IRDs are produced by Andel) have had accurate JIS tapers, clean pedal threads, were concentric, had minimal lateral runout, and no weird machining inconsistencies. The IRD cranks have been slightly overbuilt, which is consistent with their materials choices and position in the market (strong-light-cheap--pick two).

The RH cranks have had some growing pains (taper inconsistency, chainring runout; since fixed) and they did make a series of running changes to increase the strength of the crank near the pedal eye (rolling the pedal threads vs cutting them, and I believe they've added material to the pedal eye based on my samples), but it is a stable design now. I have three of them, including one of the pre-production prototypes, and do not hesitate to recommend them for general use.

Best Regards,

Will

William M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

[Eric Nichols]

RE Andel cranks.  A few years ago I bought a set of the Andel 180 mm cranks that Soma / Merry Sales was importing.  180 square taper 110/74 is a rare enough bird (right, Joe K?) that I was super-excited to try them. 

They had so much lateral runout that the big chainring would rub on the FD regardless of FD position.  Merry Sales sent me a replacement right arm, and it had the same wobble.  I gave up and got a refund. Hopefully that was just an issue with a specific product and a small user base. 

Eric Nichols

Newfields NH

[Scott Stulken]

Did you grease the tapers?  :^)

- Scott

[Igor Belopolsky]

Did anyone ever order these cranks? As someone said earlier, perhaps these are not 94BCD? Maybe the RH rings would work?

[Igor Belopolsky]

NVM, I'm looking at the photos and comparing, no way they would work.hmm

[HeikoS69]

Am Mittwoch, 20. Dezember 2017 13:15:56 UTC+1 schrieb Igor Belopolsky:

Did anyone ever order these cranks? As someone said earlier, perhaps these are not 94BCD? Maybe the RH rings would work?

Thes cranks are sold under the label of 

Dia Compe Ene Ciclo

http://www.diacompe.com.tw/product/ene-ciclo-chain-wheel-double/

http://www.diacompe.com.tw/product/ene-ciclo-chain-wheel-triple/

[Igor Belopolsky]

Well, that does not answer my question.
The Ene cranks are also quite a bit more than Andel's 'generic' version
https://www.velovitality.co.uk/products/andel-3-pin-classic-double-chainset

[Igor Belopolsky]

I found the cranks on rakuten - https://item.rakuten.co.jp/cycle-yoshida/00628788/

$220usd before shipping
also found rings, $69usd or something

[Scott Stulken]

It's too bad that they don't sell it off-the-shelf as a 46/30 (you'd have to buy the 30T ring separately, or buy the 46/38/30 triple and reconfigure it).  Just as a 46/34 or 48/36, there's no reason to buy this over a regular 110 BCD crank except for looks.

- Scott

[Igor Belopolsky]

hm, that is odd. here's a UK source: https://www.tritoncycles.co.uk/components-c9/chainsets-cranks-c70/ene-ciclo-double-crankset-p11981

I guess you could always go 46/30 w the Andel instead.

[Stephen Poole]

Looks?!? If you want 46x30 surely it makes more sense to get an IRD 94bcd crankset which comes with 46x30 rings and has a much more normal bcd. Rings to fit are available from TA, Stronglight, Blackspire, etc. And the IRD cranks are available in more lengths too. Or in 46x30 there are FSA's Tempo Adventure cranks, VO, Sugino OX, etc.

If you just want a 3-arm crankset because you like how RH cranks look, suck it up and cough up the dollars. There's a saying: "Quality is remembered long after price is forgotten."

Later,

Stephen

[Scott Stulken]

No matter how many times I've burned myself cheapening out instead of buying the right thing the first time around, I keep catching myself looking at these knockoff parts and weighing the pros and cons.  That's what this whole thread is about, right?

I love the Rene Herse cranks, and maybe I'll buy one someday.  But the main thing stopping me is that my gearing needs don't require anything special.

And don't call me "Shirley."  ;^)

- Scott

[Igor Belopolsky]

Just for fun, I reached out to VeloVitality about replacement rings for the Andel cranks and was told they are unable to get replacement/additional rings for the crank.

[David Parsons]

On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 8:45:09 PM UTC-8, satanas wrote:

 There's a saying: "Quality is remembered long after price is forgotten."

I don't know if that's a good saying.   I'm a bit of an audiophile, and pretty much every time I hear that phrase regarding audiophile gear it's a sign that the gear in question is a ripoff. 

[satanas]

There's a lot of hifi stuff that's horrifically expensive, and I have my doubts as to whether some of it has much value - apart from pose value. Once things are good enough to hear the music clearly, then IMHO they're good enough, but then it's not the gear I'm trying to listen to. I'm still happy with my "el cheapo" Rogers LS-8 speakers ~25 years later, but it's possible to pay at least £5m GBP now(!):

https://www.whathifi.com/features/11-worlds-most-expensive-loudspeakers

However, I've almost never been sorry about buying decent bike parts, though I guess I probably won't be active long enough to worry about wearing out Dura-Ace from now on. Maybe I can wear out one set of Dura-Ace EX hubs if I really push it; I've only had them for about 35 yests so far...

Later,
Stephen

[David Parsons]

On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 2:11:02 AM UTC-8, satanas wrote:

 Maybe I can wear out one set of Dura-Ace EX hubs if I really push it; I've only had them for about 35 yests so far...

    I'm sure I've got some still working hubs of that vintage but the important question is how many miles do you have on the offending hardware?

[Stephen Poole]

Really hard to say. One set probably has 50,000+ km, the AM hubs maybe 20,000, the others less as use has been shared around. Still, I've had zero problems with any Dura-Ace/XT/XTR hubs so far. The M900 hubs have also had a lot of use, including two trips to India, various MTB races, etc.

Given I've had most of them for 25+ years with no issues (and that old age is creeping up) they'll probably all outlast me. [sigh]

Later,

Stephen

[David Parsons]

The nice thing about the old D-A hubs are that they're loose ball, so unless the grease gets filled with sand (or congeals and stops being grease altogether) the races will just keep going until neutron embrittlement destroys them a few megayears down the line.

[Stephen Poole]

Neutron embrittlement?!? I just looked it up and it's said to happen mainly inside nuclear reactors. I don't cycle there much, but I suppose Homer Simpson might...  :-)