New Albion Drake

[Evan Baird]

Been keeping this under my bonnet for a couple years, but they finally built up a prototype so here it is. It's basically a 650b Wolverine with dropouts from the Rohloff Saga Disc and an EBB/PF30. It's built with Tange Infinity so it should be soilidly in the budget price range, which to be honest is about the most I can really afford.

[Evan Baird]

Oh and this https://youtu.be/_OwRLKDRlDA

[Igor Belopolsky]

AWESOME!

ETA?

On Monday, January 23, 2017 at 3:22:52 PM UTC-5, Evan Baird wrote:

Oh and this https://youtu.be/_OwRLKDRlDA

[Andrew]

When would it likely be available? What size tyre is that on it?

[Evan Baird]

It's just a prototype, so I have no idea when production frames would be available. Probably late summer at the earliest. The tires are Pacenti Quasimotos but it's designed around 48-50mmm road tires with fender clearance.

[Evan Baird]

It's was designed around the 50mm Cazaderos, which obviously aren't available since they have yet to be produced.

[Igor Belopolsky]

Pretty cool - would make a nice bad-weather rig..

[Palmer]

Hi Evan,
I do not understand how it differs from the Wolverine. I have a Wolverine and love it.
Can you explain the differences like a 10 year old could understand?
Thanks!
Tom Palmer
Twin Lake,
MI

[Fred Blasdel]

On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 6:07 AM, Palmer <volvot...@gmail.com> wrote:

I do not understand how it differs from the Wolverine. I have a Wolverine and love it.
Can you explain the differences like a 10 year old could understand?

The Wolverine has sliding dropouts for the fraction of users that dream of using a rohloff / beltdrive / singlespeed

This doesn't give up on those ideas but it uses a creaky bottom bracket from current fancy carbon bikes, instead of creaky dropouts from last decade's fancy hardtail MTBs.

The Wolverine has pretty nice tubing in the front triangle, but this has heavier/stiffer/cheaper stuff that's more like a Surly.

[Evan Baird]

The fender mounts are dialed in for 650b wheels. The tubing is lighter than the Saga disc or the Long Haul Trucker, so it should handle similarly to an XO-1. The BB height is also adjusted for 650b wheels. Forks will be ala carte. There will be a 65mm rake option eventually.

[William Lindsay]

Fred correctly pointed out that the Wolverine is belt drive ready.  A split drive-side seatstay is the key piece that allows a belt-drive build.  The Wolverine has a split drive-side seatstay, and the Drake does not.  If the Drake comes in at the very low price range that other New Albion bikes come in at, then it becomes an affordable test bed for the really great tires you can buy in 2017.  If you are one of those who believes that "the tires make the bike", then getting the least expensive frameset that takes the tires you want could be a great move.  It's like a gateway drug for 650b x Fat.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Eric Daume]

This kind of reminds me of the original Rawland bikes.

Eric

On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Evan Baird <vanst...@gmail.com> wrote:

Been keeping this under my bonnet for a couple years, but they finally built up a prototype so here it is. It's basically a 650b Wolverine with dropouts from the Rohloff Saga Disc and an EBB/PF30. It's built with Tange Infinity so it should be soilidly in the budget price range, which to be honest is about the most I can really afford.

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[Justin Hughes]

Saying the fender mounts and BB are dialed for "650b wheels" isn't useful. For what diameter tire or wheel/tire combo is a data point someone can actually use. Are you saying fender line and BB are optimized for 42-584 or bigger?

[Steve Chan]

   Are these 50mm Cazaderos anywhere in the pipeline? They would be the premium version of the MTB tires I rode back in the mid/late 80's!

On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 7:54 PM, Evan Baird <vanst...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's was designed around the 50mm Cazaderos, which obviously aren't available since they have yet to be produced.

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[Evan Baird]

As I said, it's made for 50mm tires with fenders.

[Evan Baird]

Yes, later this year.

[Randall Daniels]

I think you buried the lead. Assuming the price is in line with everything else looks like this would be the first "cheap" low-trail disc fork?

On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 6:43:25 PM UTC-5, Evan Baird wrote:

[rcnute]

72 degree STA in medium sizes please!

Ryan

[billiam]

Looking really nice.

Is that a level top tube?

I love 'em level.

billiam in medford, ore

--

[Mark McGrath]

It does look level.

I'm curious about the seat tube and head tube angles on it....are they the same as a wolverine, or different?

[Cary Weitzman]

billiam wrote:
> Is that a level top tube?
> I love 'em level.
>

Looks like a couple of degrees of upslope to me.

I wouldn't be upset to see even more, assuming "basically a Wolverine"
means it shares SOMAs low stack heights.

If this bike was built to fit someone (and properly sized) rather than
just for show, that looks to be the case, given the mighty whack 'o
spacers under that stem.

Cary

[Theodor Rzad]

The lowish trail allroad+ thing at the Albion price point: I predict it'll be popular! Think of all the existing mid-range 27.5" MTBs that could be re-invented by porting most if not all the components to this frameset. 

On Monday, January 23, 2017 at 12:11:06 PM UTC-8, Evan Baird wrote:

[Evan Baird]

That's the idea!

[Nick Favicchio]

Why that BB choice?

[Evan Baird]

Fred summed it up pretty succinctly in his response. You want modern cranks? Done. You want Rohloff? Done. You want offroad fixed? No problem. The only reason it doesn't have a belt splitter is that I don't want to deal with people trying to figure out what ratios will fit, even though I'm sure people will install them anyway. It's simple enough that a hobby builder could install it. Personally I'm happy with 1/8" chains though. PF30 addresses the issues with the BB30 interface and enables you to run pretty much any cranks you want. It's a win win, even if you use a threaded adapter.

[Igor Belopolsky]

Looking forward to this..

Will it be frame/fork or did I miss that post?

[Evan Baird]

Shot some pics at the Soma Warehouse today.

[mitch....@gmail.com]

Two sets of mid-seatstay rack bosses. Is there a (particular or generic) rack intended for these?

thanks,

Mitch

[don...@desinc.net]

On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 9:14:22 PM UTC-8, mitch....@gmail.com wrote:

Two sets of mid-seatstay rack bosses. Is there a (particular or generic) rack intended for these?

Rivendell has used this same setup for rear "mini" rack setups for quite some time http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/images/cc112-2_RearTriangle.jpg 

[Igor Belopolsky]

Very cool. TAKE MY MONEY

[Jen Cotton]

Can I request a tiny size?!?!? I need a ~500mm effective top tube, ~720 standover!

The smallest wolverine is way too big, but this could be done with a 650b wheel!

[don...@desinc.net]

On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 1:16:09 AM UTC-8, Jen Cotton wrote:

Can I request a tiny size?!?!? I need a ~500mm effective top tube, ~720 standover!

The smallest wolverine is way too big, but this could be done with a 650b wheel!

Not to Hijack, but get in contact with Elephant bikes. Theyre looking at doing a batch XS  NFEs with 26" wheels and lighter tubes. 510mm ETT  & 685mm standover from what I saw.

[Jen Cotton]

Thanks for the info, but price is a huge issue and I'd be interested in keeping the cost of a build as close to 1500 (or less) as possible. Couldn't do that with a NFE. A New Albion could potentially be ~800 dollars less. I also don't mind waiting.

[Max]

Jen, 

Unless you're specifically after disc brake compatibility, you may want to look into a small Bridgestone XO-1 / 2 / 3... The XO-1 went down to 42 cm size and is designed to work well with drop bars + 26" wheels, and has sprightly handling. Often on the 'Bay well-spec'ed for under $1k. MB-0/1/2/3 also offer some potential for running with drop bars, and many are obtainable for < $500. 

Curtlo (Doug Curtis) does custom for a good price – maybe not under $1.5k complete, but not too far from that. 

- Max

[Evan Baird]

These samples are 700c but they are the tires that will eventually be made for this frameset.

[Evan Baird]

[Steve Chan]

   Cool. If you have the mold for the 700x50c Cazaderos, then the 650Bx50c version should be pretty easy!

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 10:16 PM, Evan Baird <vanst...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 10:15:06 PM UTC-8, Evan Baird wrote:
> These samples are 700c but they are the tires that will eventually be m

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[Philip Kim]

these tires would be great for those that want a little more than 42's, but don't wanna go to 60mm tires. would definitely get these in the 650b when they come out.

[Nick Favicchio]

The tread on both those tires befuddles me. One is sitting on the fence between herring bone and bald, the other has about twice as much knob as it needs to my eyes.

I've rolled the 650b Cazadero and it's nice but it feels and looks like too much tread imo. I like the continuous center tread but maybe half the secondary ad shoulder knobs. Or something.

The other one - makes me frowny. But could well be dope.

[Evan Baird]

You've got a road specific tread and a mixed terrain tread. The rubber is very grippy, but that also means it wears more quickly. Both tread pattern are optimized to reduce wear on the intended terrain. A full herringbone is marginally gripper at the expense of tire life. The side knobs on the Caz are effective when loose sand coverage firm trails, like we have in California. It's not for mud, or CX racing. There are lots of tires made for that, and they categorically suck for other kinds of riding. It's for fast paced mixed terrain touring, because that's where we like to ride.

[satanas]

So one tyre is basically like a bigger Riv Jack Brown based on the tread pattern, or lack thereof, fine for bitumen. The other is a bigger Cazadero, which would probably be good for mixed rides around here; sand we have, gravel not so much.

Anything that needs much more tread than the latter (or a Thunder Burt) would typically be less stressful on a real MTB with flat bars, suspension, higher BB, etc.

As an aside, I sometimes wonder what Americans mean by "gravel" - does that just mean roads lacking bitumen? We have plenty of those here in Oz, but most are hard packed dirt +/- various contaminants, and are rarely surfaced with gravel as such.

Later,
Stephen

[Scott B]

I read "gravel" as somewhat maintained double track.  And so it varies so much to where you are in the US.  In the desert that means graded dirt/sand which can vary in quality to rock hard smooth to miles of washboard to loose sandy conditions.  All of which don't require much in the way of mountain bike tread.  The loose stuff is going to move around on you no matter how much tread you have and the compacted stuff again you don't really benefit from large knobs.  

[mitch....@gmail.com]

+1. In the US any non-paved double track / road gets called a gravel road, also frequently synonymous with dirt road. That includes mostly unimproved dirt roads where the only actual gravel is the incidentally occurring small rocks. Lots of single track is the same surface. Gravel road also includes non-paved roads that are graded and surfaced with a layer of uniform grey gravel, usually in a deep layer initially. That's what I always picture when Jan talks about gravel sliding on itself.

Most Americans think of a gravel or dirt road as one that doesn't get traveled so doesn't need to be paved. But in the N.American west, Plains, and Prarie, there are many miles and whole districts of improved gravel roads intended for regular travel. These kinds of roads are where a lot of the recent gravel racing takes place and they do have that layer of failry uniform gravel. When newly surfaced, It can be sharp edged slidey stuff that I do not enjoy.

There are some western districts where you see improved gravel roads like this but also, depending on which county is maintaining, improved dirt roads, sometimes with an oiled dirt surface. Terminology still gets mixed but locals usually say dirt road, oiled road, and gravel road to distinguish. (I haven't seen oiled roads in a while in CO, maybe they aren't done any more?)

Another kind of gravel road in the US west is a regular paved surface road where every few years they put down wet tar and then a thick layer of gravel but without any tar sealer layer over the gravel layer. Over time and with vehicle travel the dry gravel is supposed to sink down into the tar layer underneath and eventually look like a regular paved road. That can take a while and in the meantime you're riding on loose gravel that gets less loose over time.

I've heard that process in the west is called macadam, or macadamized, named for the Scott inventor John McAdam. When Stephen refers to bitumen I understand it to be a tar sealed road Americans would call (~smooth) pavement(?). When a British person says pavement they mean what Americans call a sidewalk. So when Americans cycling in Britain hear someone yell "Oy! Get off the pavement!", they answer "that's why I'm riding on the sidewalk."

--Mitch

[Stephen Poole]

Thanks guys!

Here we usually just say "dirt road" for anything easily navigable by 2WD vehicles. I'm not aware of anything where layers of uniform gravel are laid down. What we get sometimes is an "improved surface" which means large and/rough blue metal added for traction, usually on climbs; this is very bike-unfriendly. On some fire trails sand gets added (or washed from elsewhere?) at times, also making riding tiresome/tiring.

I've seen oiled gravel roads in Norway, back in the 1980s, but nowadays I think they're either very uncommon or extinct. Back then they were an easy way to fix high or remote roads after the spring thaw, but the country was a lot poorer and less developed then too.

In more remote areas of Oz (like outback deserts) things can be a lot rougher or looser, but deserts here are mostly flat, boring and hot so I avoid them; if I'm going to make an effort to go somewhere there are more rewarding and pleasant options IMHO.

The other major class of unsealed "roads" are fire trails, typically in national parks or state forests, etc. These usually have restricted access and are not generally passble except by 4WD or bike in any case. Surfaces vary wildly, from relatively smooth and firm to sandy to rough, etc. Near Sydney it's mainly sandstone, often steep and can at times be very rough. Off-camber corners, ruts, rocks, water bars, and sand patches are all common. Soils vary elsewhere, but soft soil isn't very common, and mud is rare, fortunate since some of it is like super glue, ie the dreaded "black mud."

Re nomenclature: "Sealed" means bitumen/asphalt/concrete, while "unsealed" means some sort of dirt road, usually with little traffic and/or remote. We have neither sidewalks nor pavements next to the road here - they are footpaths(!), and riding on them is rarely socially acceptable or legal.

Based on what has been said and pics I've seen, I suspect side knobs on tyres might be considerably more useful here than on some US "gravel." I'm not so sure we have as much here where something between ~42mm with a smoothish tread and 50+mm and somewhat knobby is all that useful. One can always survive with less than optimum traction, but sometimes only just!

Later,
Stephen

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[Evan Baird]

Where I live outside Yosemite the roads are a hodgepodge of neglected pavement with tons of cracks and potholes, dirt fire roads and occasional gravel. Because of seasonal snow melt and erosion gravel gets added to even out the holes but never stays deep and squishy for very long.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/17/2017 03:07 PM, mitch....@gmail.com wrote:
> Another kind of gravel road in the US west is a regular paved surface road where every few years they put down wet tar and then a thick layer of gravel but without any tar sealer layer over the gravel layer. Over time and with vehicle travel the dry gravel is supposed to sink down into the tar layer underneath and eventually look like a regular paved road. That can take a while and in the meantime you're riding on loose gravel that gets less loose over time.

That's chipseal, a type of pavement found all over
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chipseal

[mitch....@gmail.com]

Chipseal, thanks Steve. So what is macadam? Is that the tar sealed version or does it apply to all these tar plus gravel roads?

--Mitch

[Steve Palincsar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macadam

A more durable road surface (modern mixed asphalt pavement) sometimes referred to in the US as blacktop, was introduced in the 1920s. This pavement method mixed the aggregates into the asphalt with the binding material before they were laid. The macadam surface method laid the stone and sand aggregates on the road and then sprayed it with the binding material.^[22] While macadam roads have now been resurfaced in most developed countries, some are preserved along stretches of roads such as the United States' National Road.

Because of the historic use of macadam as a road surface, roads in some parts of the United States (as parts of Pennsylvania) are often referred to as macadam, even though they might be made of asphalt or concrete. Similarly, the term "tarmac" is sometimes colloquially misapplied to asphalt roads or aircraft runways.

I understand this to mean it's basically an obsolete form of paving, but the name lives on and is often applied to road surfaces that aren't really.

On 02/17/2017 05:39 PM, mitch....@gmail.com wrote:

[John P]

A guy from Idaho (I think) was coming to the SF Bay Area and wanted to ride some local trails.  I told him I'd show him around but in some areas the only trails that are legal are fire roads as opposed to single track.  In his mind he was concerned he wasn't going to enjoy what I was going to show him because in his area fire roads are covered in rocks and he didn't like riding them.  When he arrived I proceeded to take him on some relatively smooth dirt "fire roads" as we locally know them and he thought they were great with the trees the way they are, etc.  I didn't realize there were different definitions of fire road.

  -John

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[Stephen Poole]

It seems that nomenclature for road types and construction probably varies with topography, geology, climate, region, country, etc. I'm not sufficiently au fait with Australian methods to say exactly how the terms align here, but a quick look at Wikipedia suggests quite a few differences. Whether these are differences in technique or naming (for paved roads) is beyond me. FWIW, road construction methods in the Himalayas are different again, and some paved main highways can be rougher than some of our dirt roads or fire trails, due to heavy vehicles, erosion, landslips, etc.

It's probably more helpful to describe the surfaces involved than just to name them, as the potential for confusion is great. Wikipedia says "asphalt concrete" is common in the USA, but I'd never encountered the term before; it looks just like "road" to me from the pictures though. Here concrete means cement, when applied to roads or bridges, and is thus light in colour, not black(top).

Later,
Stephen

[Reed Kennedy]

Hey John,

Any chance you'd be willing to share the route you mentioned? I live in the Bay Area and I'd love to give it a try! Sounds like just my sorta thing. 

Reed

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[John Roberts]

Wow, love it with the low-trail fork. Much more distinguished IMHO. Of course, not to mention perceptions based on my own experience; this appears to me both more comfortable and welcoming (regardless of terrain).  

[John P]

You phrase your question as if I'm talking about something special.  Personally I love technical riding, the more the better.  That's special to me.  I think the guest might not have been that interested in technical stuff, but to me all the fire roads around the area aren't special, though I like riding them just fine.  What surprised me is that someone from out of the area seemed to so honestly enjoy what I find just average.

That said the specific memory came from a route in the Redwood Park area in Oakland.  If you're around here haven't you ridden everything already?  Want to ride together somewhere / anywhere?  I'm not a racer.  Feel free to contact off list, or on as you please.

I like mountain bike routes.  Or if you're saying you're primarily interested in "gravel grinder" types of routes have you looked up the Nifty Mixty route?  I've been pondering riding that in pieces or as a whole depending on what individuals are up for.  I acknowledge things are a bit soggy these days.

  -John in El Cerrito

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[Evan Baird]

[Will Morris]

Cool! Do you know the eta? I asked Soma about it a couple days ago,
but haven't heard anything definitive. Was about to go with
Endpoint's, but depending on max tire, this would be preferable.

On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 2:19 PM, Will Morris <wj...@cornell.edu> wrote:
> Cool! Do you know the eta? I asked Soma about it a couple days ago,
> but haven't heard anything definitive. Was about to go with Endpoint,
> but depending on max tire, this would be way preferable.

>
> On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Evan Baird <vanst...@gmail.com> wrote:
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[Evan Baird]

I'm told they're on order, so who knows.

On Mar 3, 2017 11:20 AM, "Will Morris" <wj...@cornell.edu> wrote:

Cool! Do you know the eta? I asked Soma about it a couple days ago,
but haven't heard anything definitive. Was about to go with Endpoint,
but depending on max tire, this would be way preferable.

On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Evan Baird <vanst...@gmail.com> wrote:
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[Randall Daniels]

Why the downward facing dropouts?

[Evan Baird]

The photo is a champs elysees fork modified by rock lobster for testing purposes. The production version will have disc specific fork blades.

[Randall Daniels]

Cool thanks for the reply.

[Alex Mazonowicz]

Hi Evan,

Hurrah! The Drake looks excellent, exactly the bike I'm after (I like to do some dirt/gravel touring). Put me down for the low trail version - it should be the perfect compliment to my (smooth road) New Albion Privateer.

If you need anyone to do some (ahem) testing, let me know - I do things like this in places like that.

Best regards


Alex


On Wednesday, 1 February 2017 14:54:54 UTC+13, Evan Baird wrote:

Shot some pics at the Soma Warehouse today.