Tire advice for a 650b virgin

[Luke Heller]

With all the new 650b tire options, input from the forum seems prudent. I'm new to 650b and want to get broke in right. The tires will be used on my Elephant NFE and primary use will be for randonneuring. I already have a set of thunderburts and panaracer comets to try out.

The options:
Parimoto 650b x 42mm
Soma Gand Randonneur 650b x 42mm
Panaracer Pasela 650b x 42mm
Hetre 650b x 42mm

The hetre is actually at the bottom of my list due to the cost and the amount of flats I see with them on the inter webs; #supple #flattingallthetime. Yeah I know that riding hetre's is like having and micro-orgasm every other pedal stroke. But the last thing I want is to change multiple flats on a winter brevet - or anytime for that matter.

Tires i currently love:
Schwalbe Kojack 700c x 35mm
Panaracer Pasela TG 700 x 35mm

If you were to recommend a 650b x 42mm tire to a newbie, what would it be. Consider price, ride feel, and puncture resistance.

[somervillebikes]

There's also the Compass Babyshoe Pass 650b x 42mm.

Hetre used to reign supreme until Compass came out with the BsP.  I have both Hetre and BsP and the BsP are superior. But they cost more than the budget Paselas. I have had one flat on Hetres in over a couple thousand miles. I have not had a flat on BsP, but I have only ridden them 600 miles.

I have also ridden tons of Paselas in 700c and they're okay too. Not fantastic, but not bad.

Parimotos have the magic feel of the Hetre and BsP and are even lighter, and cheaper, but they have less tread material and they wear out faster, about twice as fast. They are known to flat more as a result of less tread material.

If you like Paselas already, and you want to save some cash, the new Pasela 650x42 look like a sweet deal.  

Anton

[Chris Knighton]

Get the Compass Babyshoe Pass 42mm's. Regular casing if you plan to do a lot of trail and gravel riding, extra light if you'll do mostly road or tend to carry a spare on trails/gravel. Though many people use the extra light casings for rough stuff with no problems. Last year I put over 3000 miles on the regular casings without a single flat. I used to be cheap and use Pascelas but now I don't see any point in using the lower quality tires. The BSP tires are worth the price and the ride quality of them is the reason why I switched from 700c to 650b.

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/09/2016 09:51 AM, Luke Heller wrote:
> The hetre is actually at the bottom of my list due to the cost and the amount of flats I see with them on the inter webs; #supple #flattingallthetime.

Flatting all the time? Nonsense.

[Tim Gavin]

I've had excellent performance from my 38 mm Pari Motos; no flats in ~1500 miles. 

Before that, I tried Grand Bois Lierres, and I had tons of flats with those.  I believe the tread would pick up glass shards and let them penetrate, whereas the smooth tread (Pari Moto, Soma GR, most Compass tires) doesn't have that problem on the same poorly-swept city streets.

The Pari-Motos may not last forever, but they're half the price of the others so I like the value proposition.

They may be flat-prone in areas with thorns, but they've held up great versus commuting debris and gravel in relatively thorn-free Iowa.

Tim Gavin

Cedar Rapids, IA

[franklyn]

I pretty much only use Hetres on my 4 bikes nowadays. I know BsP's may be better, but I like having different colors than black on my bikes, and I don't think they give up too much to the BSPs.

I haven't flatted that much. I probably fixed 4 flats a year across my 4 bikes. Each time it's usually a tack, a staple, or a wire--meaning, the tire was less likely the difference maker there. Since I switched to tubeless friendly rims like A23s and SL23s, I have begun to put sealant in my tubes, so far, so good.

Franklyn

[Steve Chan]

   The Hetres have a very good reputation for being flat free, but much of that is due to running it at lower pressures than skinnier tires - the lower pressure means than when it rolls over something that might puncture a tire, it presses on it with lower pressure - lessening the likelihood of a puncture. If someone is getting a lot more flats with Hetres than with other tires, I wonder if they are not up to speed on proper pressure for the tire, and are running at much higher than necessary pressures.

   The Baby Shoe Pass is supposed to have a better tread pattern for some surfaces, and the Extra Legere version of the BSP is supposed to have a much better sidewall construction than the Hetre ELs.

   If you're really worried about flatting, then you might look into the Panaracer T-Serv 650Bx42, it has more puncture resistant casing and a very sticky rubber and a somewhat more pronounced tread pattern than either the Hetre or BSP - to me its a good tire for urban commuting, but not really as fast as a nice 650B tire can be. The SOMA GR "heavy" version would be another flat resistant version, but with a essentially slick tread. There is a version of the Pari Moto that is supposedly especially gravel oriented, and it sounds like a lighter weight version of the T-Serv based on casing and rubber.

   If you have the clearance for ~60mm tires, the new Schwalbe Big One should be a pretty interesting option - Schwalbe's new casings are really good, and their rubber manages to be sticky yet fairly long wearing. They seem to have invested heavily in R&D.

   For, for what it is worth, going tubeless is very much worth the effort (imo) if you worry about flats.

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[Ryan Watson]

Flats are definitely a "your mileage may vary" thing, but Hetres have been the least flattening tire I've ever ridden. And I live in Goathead Alley (Aka Albuquerque, NM ;-)

[Jon Doyle]

Compass Babyshoe Pass is what you want for rando. You have a nice bike, put nice tires on it.

I rode Babyshoes heavily for 2 years of rando (5,400 km), plus most of my off the clock rides. Flats were rare, mostly glass shards picked up in Boston, maybe two a year. Rear tire's tread wore through recently, but front still has plenty of tread.

I'm currently riding Compass Switchback Hills (48 mm) tubeless and they feel just as fast. You might consider them if a tubeless setup is of interest. The sealant should negate on-road punctures.

On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 at 9:51:44 AM UTC-5, Luke Heller wrote:

[Luke Heller]

So if BsB is the general consensus, is it worth spending the extra $20/tire for Extralight?

The seems to contradict all that make sense to me.

Spend more money for a tire that has a shorter lifespan.

$160 for a set of tires before s/h?

[Ken Mattina]

It all boils down to what is "good enough" versus "the best".

I guess now is the time that I shut up.

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[Daniel]

You mention randonneuring, but will you mostly riding pavement? 

I haven't ridden every tire on your list, but I've ridden a lot of 650B road tires (CdlV, Fatty Rumpkin, Hetres, Lierres, original Pari Motos, B-Lines, cheap Kendras, others I'm forgetting?) and of those the Hetres were easily the plushest, nicest to ride. I often call them "fast marshmallows." Coming from the 35mm 700C tires, especially a TG Pasela (I've never ridden those Kojaks), you'll find they're noticeably nicer.

In all my Hetre miles, I've maybe had 2 flats? That was mostly pavement, with a little bit of hardpack in sunny southern California. They're really amazing. Plu Hetres last so danged long that $/miles is very good. I've bought a few sets on these forums used and will probably continue to do so.

Otherwise, for a lower up front cost, the 42mm Pari Moto (reports say they're closed to 40mm) would be less up front cost, but not last as long. Ditto for Pasellas; in fact you might even get better $/mile since they should outlast the PMs.

These days, I fully believe the Compass tires are probably the next level and I'd love to ride some tubeless Switchback Pass 48s (and your NFE could handle them, probably with full fenders), but you'll be paying a premium. If you can swing it (or more importantly, allow yourself the indulgence), this is what I'd do if I wanted the best.

Daniel

PDX, OR

[Steve Chan]

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Daniel <datadat...@gmail.com> wrote:

Otherwise, for a lower up front cost, the 42mm Pari Moto (reports say they're closed to 40mm) would be less up front cost, but not last as long. Ditto for Pasellas; in fact you might even get better $/mile since they should outlast the PMs.

   The 42mm "Gravel King" version of the Pari Moto would be a good way to test the waters for a fast rolling, fat 650B tire. At $40/tire (list price), you're looking at 1/2 the price of the Compass tires, and with the Gravel King construction it should be more flat resistant than a normal pari moto.

   And what you are paying for in a tire isn't durability, it is ostensibly "quality" - however quality has many dimensions, in some cases it might be long term durability, but in this case it is higher end materials and more speed/performance. If you want the best durability in a 650B tire, then a Schwalbe Marathon or Big Ben is your ideal tire.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/09/2016 01:16 PM, Luke Heller wrote:
> So if BsB is the general consensus, is it worth spending the extra
> $20/tire for Extralight?
>
> The seems to contradict all that make sense to me.
> Spend more money for a tire that has a shorter lifespan.

This sounds as though you believe the ELs have a shorter lifespan than
the standard casings, but in general that's not the case.

[Rob Riggins]

I shared your tire-price shock last year. I bought a pair of regular Compass tires and felt like I was really stretching my ability to purchase tires. Then I got into fat biking and ended up buying a pair of studded tires. That made the Compass tires seem pretty affordable.

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Rob Riggins

[@cyclocult]

If they fit the Elephant, I'd suggest the Compass Switchback Hill 650x48, especially if you're planning to ride off the pavement. I have the ELs set up tubeless on my Rawland rSogn and love them. No flats after 500+ miles mostly off-road.

[William Lindsay]

On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 at 10:16:25 AM UTC-8, Luke Heller wrote:

So if BsB is the general consensus, is it worth spending the extra $20/tire for Extralight?

The seems to contradict all that make sense to me.

Spend more money for a tire that has a shorter lifespan.

$160 for a set of tires before s/h?

You were already considering Soma Grand Randonneurs 650Bx42, and those are $80 a tire as well.  Why the sticker shock now?  

At any rate, you did instruct the group to consider price, ride quality, puncture resistance.  I assume that maybe price is the most important of the three.  Your four options maybe now include six options:

Parimoto 650b x 42mm  LOW price, EXCELLENT ride quality, POOR flat resistance
Soma Gand Randonneur 650b x 42mm  VERY HIGH price, EXCELLENT ride quality, FAIR flat resistance
Panaracer Pasela 650b x 42mm  GOOD price, GOOD ride quality, VERY GOOD flat resistance

Hetre 650b x 42mm  HIGH price, VERY GOOD ride quality, GOOD flat resistance

Compass Babyshoe Pass standard  HIGH price, VERY GOOD ride quality, FAIR flat resistance

Compass Babyshoe extra light VERY HIGH price, EXCELLENT ride quality, FAIR flay resistance

Of course people can split hairs between those tires.  Even though I rated them the same above, I wouldn't fight if somebody asserted that BSP EL > Soma GR.  The Pasela might have the best combination of attributes for you.  I think it's a very solid tire.  I'm running Soma New Express 650B x 38 right now and think it's a very good value tire.  

[Jan Heine]

Just to clarify: Compass tires with "Standard" and "Extralight" casings have the same tread thickness, so they last the same number of miles. The difference is the more supple casing of the "Extralights", which makes the tire faster and more comfortable. The advantages of the "Standard" are lower price and higher resistance to sidewall cuts on rocky terrain.

Generally speaking, wider tires spread the wear over a much larger surface area, so they last many more miles. Consider that our tires are built like high-end racing tires, yet it's common to get 4-5000 miles out of a pair, whereas a 25 mm-wide racing tire rarely will last more than 1/3 of that distance.

Jan Heine

Compass Bicycles Ltd.

www.compasscycle.com

[Evan Baird]

I'm running 38mm Panaracer Gravel kings, which are basically beefed up parimotos. They've been fine for punctures, but not much traction on proper gravel rides. I hope they'll make the SK version in 650b, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Andrew Fatseas]

Lots of good advice already. I'll just add that the Hetres are definitely not flat prone. I've done many kilometres on them on and off road and only had perhaps 4 or 5 punctures since 2007. 

[ejg]

The Babyshoe is a great tire, but I prefer the Loup Loup pass 650bx38. 

For me it was worth the extra$ for the extralight.  

Flatting hasn't really been an issue with them, but everyone is differen't. When I used Pari-Motos I had more flats than I like. 

[ejg]

Jon, 

so you are liking the Switchbacks? I've been thinking about getting a pair and trying a tubeless set up. 

On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 at 1:11:32 PM UTC-5, Jon Doyle wrote:

[Nick Payne]

On 10/02/2016 1:19 PM, Andrew Fatseas wrote:
> Lots of good advice already. I'll just add that the Hetres are
> definitely not flat prone. I've done many kilometres on them on and
> off road and only had perhaps 4 or 5 punctures since 2007.

My experience matches yours. I've been using Hetres since whenever they
first appeared - quite a few years now - and can recall very few
punctures. If the OP is worried about punctures, buy tubes with
removable valve cores - I have 650b tubes from Schwalbe, Q-tubes, and
Maxxis that all come with removable cores - and put 50ml of sealant in
each tube. I've been doing that for about three years and haven't had a
single puncture in that time - well, I've probably had punctures, but
the sealant has repaired them without roadside repairs being needed.

One point to note if putting sealant in tubes - you're better off using
the largest tube that will fit in the tyre, as the less the tube is
stretched when inflated, the less work the sealant has to do to fix a
puncture. I've been using Maxxis flyweight 27.5x1.90/2.125 tubes inside
Hetres.

Nick

[David Cummings]

If you are going to go the short term cheap route, I would go scour the interweb for deals on Pari-Motos. If you are into long term investment, go Compass.

I have used Pasela and Soma B Line (essentially 650b sizes Pasela), they are both too firm for me now that I have experienced the plush ride of the Pari-Motos. I would also check your Paselas and see if they are true to size. My B Lines are rated at 38 but measure out to only 35-ish.

With the NFE, go as big as you can if you are truly going to be "all road." If it's just pavement, 38-42 is plenty.

My 2 cents

David Cumings
Kalispell, MT

[Steven Frederick]

I have around 3500 miles on a pair of standard red Hetres and have had
one flat, a puncture from a huge, chisel-point industrial staple that
would've done for any bicycle tire worth riding I think.

Steve

[Steve Park]

Oh my.  This is at the top of my list of bike to do's.

On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 at 1:11:32 PM UTC-5, Jon Doyle wrote:

[Tamaso Johnson]

Luke,
I've got BsP ELs on my NFE. They're great, if want a tubed tire. If the Switchback Hills was available when I got my bike, I would have got wider fenders (60mm Berthouds or something) and run these tires tubeless from the get go.

Schwalbe g-one is also on my shortlist to try.

I have a pair of like-new Pari Moto "42" you can have for real cheap if you want to try something that rides very similarly to the BsP.

[Jon Doyle]

All aces. The SBHs allow me to utilize the massive clearances in my frame and run lower pressures (25-ish psi). Felt extra good on dirt/crap roads and trails.

[Nick Favicchio]

If you'd like to wade at a lower price point, parimotos are dope and last half as long as the Compass tires.

If you wanna go both feet, ya, BSP ELs. Super hecka dope but that sticker shock is no joke!

I'd say go pari over standard case BSP.

[Randall Daniels]

I have about 3,400 miles over 4 months on my pair of Hetres. I'm 170lbs and generally run them right above the point they feel squishy during turns so generally 35-45 psi depending on the temperature. They are the most flat prone tires I've ridden. I've had 6 flats over that mileage span. 2 from punctures that would have taken down any regular tire and 4 from tiny shards of glass that worked through the tire over time. I generally ride fairly clean roads and a large portion of those miles were on the Silver Comet trail west of Atlanta so I'd rank the Hetres as fair/poor for flat resistance from my perspective. I've taken to examining the tires with a headlamp every few days and pulling out any shards of glass I can find buried in the rubber. I've not experienced this on any other tire. Previously I rode 700x25/26/27/28 width tires from Continental and rarely remember flatting and when I did I most often recall flatting due to pinch flats from rocks/rough roads.

I've got a pari-moto queued next and then maybe BSPs or Paselas when that wears out. I'm not trying to be overly negative, just presenting my experience.

[Justin August]

Randall-
That stinks! My experience with Hetres in the streets of Philly was the exact opposite. I can see being very frustrated. I have a couple wonderings:
Have you tried a lower pressure?
Have you thought of putting 1-2oz of Stans sealant in the tubes?
I would try one or both and see if it changes anything!

Wishing you the best,
Justin

[satanas]

FWIW: I toured in Europe last year between late March until just before PBP, mainly on Hetres, and had zero flats plus surprisingly little wear. This included various dubious road surfaces in the UK and France. IME, Hetres are not flat prone at all, but YMMV.

Later,

Stephen

PS: Virtually all tyres can have flats except perhaps Schwalbe Marathon Plus <shudder>.

[Steven Frederick]

One thing that 650b/27.5" has done for me (for better or worse!) is
normalize spending $50+ apiece for bicycle tires...I can remember when
I would routinely buy 26"mtb tires on clearance for under $20, and
road tires for not much more...

Steve

[Hudson Doerge]

One thing I'll throw out there based on my experience with a few of these tires. The $/mile argument falls apart if you ever have a sidewall slash or other irreparable damage to a tire. Sure, this may never happen to some people, but I've had a Hetre and BSP fall victim to damages that ended their lives long before the rubber wore out. Maybe bad luck, sure, but the fact is things like this happen and when they do the $/mile ratio changes drastically, especially when you're talking extra light casings. This is not to disparage Hetres or BSP, they're both fantastic tires, just another anecdote to make your decision more difficult.

-Hudson in ATX

[mitch....@gmail.com]

"B is the general consensus, is it worth spending the extra $20/tire for Extralight?

The seems to contradict all that make sense to me.

Spend more money for a tire that has a shorter lifespan..."

Generally tire lifespan is determined by tread thickness/composition and the tread is identical in the EL and non-EL Compass tire versions.

Both versions are likely to last the same number of miles.

The name confuses sometimes because you don't buy the EL version because it's lightweight but because the casing is more lightly built:

The EL BsP has a lighter casing fabric designed to be flexible as possible for its use. This and other features of the tire (e.g., tread to sidewall transition) make it more supple and that results in less rolling resistance and a faster/easier rolling tire. The difference can be felt but it can also be established empirically in roll down testing.

"...$160 for a set of tires before s/h?"

I used to buy tires almost exclusively on price but the Compass tires are worth the money to me because they ride and perform differently. Tires have by far the biggest effect on ride quality and quite a large effect on speed. If there's a smartest area to spend your cycling money it's tires.

But there are other good options mentioned in the thread. You can also wait and watch because features of the Compass tires are being copied more and more.

--Mitch

[Justin August]

I had the kevlar bead on a pair of Marathon Pluses rip apart, rendering them unusable. All tires are susceptible to this type of abuse.

-J

[Luke Heller]

Do the 42mm parip-moto's measure a true 42?

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Nick Favicchio <nickfa...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Hudson Doerge]

My 42mm pari motos set up tubeless on 25mm wide rims come out just a hair wider than babyshoe passes set up tubeless on 25mm rims. I don't have calipers to measure either, but they are at least as wide as the BsP for what that's worth.

[Tamaso Johnson]

Not in my experience. 42mm P-M (tan casing) were ~40mm on 19mm (WTB Frequency i19) rims for me, where BSP ELs are true to size.

[Nicholas Jensen]

I run the BsP EL tubeless on Pacenti SL rims. No issues after 1500 miles and I ride through a few miles of urban debris on every ride. These tires are worth every penny.

On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 at 10:16:25 AM UTC-8, Luke Heller wrote:

So if BsB is the general consensus, is it worth spending the extra $20/tire for Extralight?

The seems to contradict all that make sense to me.

Spend more money for a tire that has a shorter lifespan.

$160 for a set of tires before s/h?

[Philip Kim]

Parimoto (black gravel casing) 42's came out 40.5mm on Dyads.

[Luke Heller]

I just want to recognize all the folks on this list for all the helpful experience you have shared.

It's been very informative and I look forward to giving 650b's a real shot.

I ended up going with some Soma GR green labels for the time being; price was right.

If this is a good start to my new experience in 650b, I look forward to trying the BsP.