WTB: budget 650b wheelset

[KEVIN MCCOOL]

Hey all-
I'm looking for a budget 650b wheelset for a low budget conversion project. I'm aware of the zac19/wheelsmith option on eBay but wanted to see if anyone here had an extra wheel set before heading that route.

Looking for 130 or 126 rear spacing. Other details I'm pretty open (spoke count etc)

Thanks for the consideration.

Kevin in Madison, WI

[Andy Beichler]

I just bought a set of cheap 650b wheels from Niagra Cycles Amazon site just to try them on a few bikes before I put down big money.  They are cheaper through Amazon than they are on their actual website.  The rear is 135 spaced and freewheel rather than freehub.  I did not have a problem with the freewheel and I was able to change it to 126 spacing by removing a couple of spacers and changing out the locknuts with a thinner set I had on a very old wheel. I can't comment on the durability because I have only ridden them a few miles but they were true out of the box. I did have to adjust the bearings, but I would have done that anyway.

I had been waiting since April to purchase a set of the wheels offered by uglyrm on ebay but he keeps setting a further date for when his store is going to reopen.  It had been the end of April, then the beginning of June and now it is mid-July.

[Igor Belopolsky]

who is uglyrm

[Philip Kim]

ebay seller that sells cheap wheels

[Mark Bulgier]

eBay seller bikewagoncat sells a front wheel for $40 and free shipping!
www.ebay.com/itm/122305606750

Unless my search skills are lacking, he doesn't seem to have a rear to match, but seller xtremebikeandsport does:
www.ebay.com/itm/401350630142
It's $68 and free shipping.  So maybe there's a better deal out there for the rear, but still the F+R total is only $108 delivered

Very basic wheels but they are, technically, 650b wheels...

Haven't tried them myself, so if anyone here gets them, please report back with a review when you get a chance.

I did get some wheels from uglyrm with Pacenti rims and Shimano hubs, freehub rear, for not much more than this, so hopefully that deal will come back at some point.

Mark Bulgier
Seattle

[Justin, Oakland]

Not as cheap but I have the earlier generation with synergy rims and love them:
https://www.modernbike.com/quality-wheels-pavement-front-rim-brake-wheel-650b-36h-shimano-lx---velocity-dyad---dt-champion-all-silver
https://www.modernbike.com/quality-wheels-pavement-front-rim-brake-wheel-650b-36h-shimano-lx-dynamo---velocity-dyad---dt-champion-all-silver
https://www.modernbike.com/quality-wheels-pavement-rear-rim-brake-wheel-650b-36h-shimano-lx-10s----velocity-dyad---dt-champion-all-silver

In fact that looks like a great summer off road choice....

-Justin

[Igor Belopolsky]

$300 https://www.rivbike.com/collections/wheels/products/velocity-made-shimano-alex-wheelset-650b-x-32h-135

[Scott Henry]

Not sure how low budget you are talking....

I have tires that cost more than this wheelset ---> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vera-Corsa-DPM-27-650B-Wheelset-Vera-Invictus-Tire-Black-Blue-Take-Off-/371967612132?hash=item569aff54e4:g:mSwAAOSw5cRZLhBY

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/650b.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Greg Walton]

Be cautious with that offering, I would be very surprised if The wheelset is actually 650b. I'm guessing they are mislabeled.

Greg

Seattle

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[Scott Henry]

True.    Looking closer, its marked 650b but looks more like a 650c.

Normally I would totally trust BikeWagon though 

[Paul Sherman]

https://bikingtoplay.blogspot.hk/2013/07/the-for-sale-post.html?m=1

Listmember Eric has some 650b wheels up for sale. Rim/hub/build quality would all be higher than the budget options on eBay. Tires are also a plus if you plan on running 38's anyway.

Paul

[Andy Beichler]

These are the same wheels that Niagra cycles offers through their Amazon site for about $90 delivered.

[Mark Bulgier]

Good to know, thanks!  Your earlier mini-review didn't give a link or brand or price.  I note that you haven't had them long, but they appear to be actual ridable wheels, not "wheel-shaped objects".  Hopefully you can report back with more impressions after they've been on the road for a while.  Cheers.

-Mark

[Andy Beichler]

I will know more after tomorrow. My daughter and I are headed out for a ride.  

[Andy Beichler]

Forgot to include the link.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01B9YSFSY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[marsh monster]

I'm looking for a cheap 126 spaced wheel for a neighborhood cruiser. How has this wheel held up? Is it quick release, didn't you have to replace the axle
to a shorter one?

[Hunter Ellis]

VO has a decent 126 hub that's not crazy expensive. I was looking around for those a while back and found it to be the only new 126mm hub that seemed worth buying.

https://velo-orange.com/collections/wheels/products/grand-cru-freewheel-rear-wheel-126mm-700c

20% off today

[Andy Beichler]

They have held up fine.  I commute on them most days and I have not had any problems with them.  As far as the axle goes, if I had a shorter axle, I would have replaced the original one. As it is, there is just an unusual amount of axle sticking out but the quick release still works.  

[earlethomas]

Bought the zac 19 set from ugly recently,on the advice of bikeman. In process of building, so I can't give a report on performance yet, but the wheels are true and look fine. Spec'd 130mm. If you are looking for an entry level rim brake set, why not bite? I've spent sometime looking around and I don't think you'll find anything else at this price. 650b wheelsets for rim brakes are not widely available, just a few around. If you are looking for disc,  I don't know. See thread:http://ridinggravel.com/forum/?p=post%2F27-5-wheelset-for-rim-brakes-9474402%3Fpid%3D1301879942

On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 3:57:56 PM UTC-4, KEVIN MCCOOL wrote:

[Igor Belopolsky]

I have the same wheelset^ Zac19
It's nothing fancy but you're looking for budget.

It is tough to get tires to seat, I am awaiting my Pasela tires that will go on them to wrap 2 layers of cloth tape

[David Cummings]

Ditto on the Zac19 from uglyrm. They are cheap and functional. A step above a “tire-shaped object” but not by much. A better analogy would be a “gateway drug.” ;)

David heavily addicted to 650b in the Mountains

[David Parsons]

Personally the only thing I've found wrong with the Zac19 rims are that the tire well is insanely deep;  I can fit (so far) Hetres, Nokian A10s & CdlVs into them without having to fuss with getting the tire seated, but Pari-Motos, G-Ones, and Confreries need to be prepped with soapy water to make the bead slide into place properly.

Admittedly, my Zac19s are all set up with tubeless tape (I bought a huge roll of it years ago and it's cheaper to keep taping with it than it is to buy cloth tape) so there's nothing except air pressure to keep the bead into place, but other than that they're 480gm, have a generous brake track, build easily, and stay true.  

[Scott Stulken]

Yeah, it's interesting how people's experiences will differ with the same stuff.  I kinda like deep wells (several of my bikes have singlewalled rims) since they make it so easy to get the beads over the edge of the rim.  You have to inflate the tire to 5-10 psi and massage the bead a little to make sure the tire is mounted straight before inflating the rest of the way, but big deal...

- Scott

[Chris Cullum]

On Dec 17, 2017 6:58 PM, "Scott Stulken" <thermio...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah, it's interesting how people's experiences will differ with the same stuff.  I kinda like deep wells (several of my bikes have singlewalled rims) since they make it so easy to get the beads over the edge of the rim.  You have to inflate the tire to 5-10 psi and massage the bead a little to make sure the tire is mounted straight before inflating the rest of the way, but big deal...

For the record I hated these rims as well. Tires would never mount straight even with much manipulation. God forbid you got a flat on the road because you would be stuck with a major lump in the tire where the bead seat was under the rim ledge. You could feel the bump on each wheel rotation. 

Pacenti rims are a bit harder to mount initially but snap into place and tires mount dead straight.

- Scott

On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 12:35:16 AM UTC-6, David Parsons wrote:

Personally the only thing I've found wrong with the Zac19 rims are that the tire well is insanely deep;  I can fit (so far) Hetres, Nokian A10s & CdlVs into them without having to fuss with getting the tire seated, but Pari-Motos, G-Ones, and Confreries need to be prepped with soapy water to make the bead slide into place properly.

Admittedly, my Zac19s are all set up with tubeless tape (I bought a huge roll of it years ago and it's cheaper to keep taping with it than it is to buy cloth tape) so there's nothing except air pressure to keep the bead into place, but other than that they're 480gm, have a generous brake track, build easily, and stay true.  

On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 9:48:45 PM UTC-8, David Cummings wrote:

Ditto on the Zac19 from uglyrm. They are cheap and functional. A step above a “tire-shaped object” but not by much. A better analogy would be a “gateway drug.” ;)

David heavily addicted to 650b in the Mountains

-- 

[David Cummings]

Another first world problem:  I have found that the easier it is to mount a tire on a rim, the harder it is to seat the bead properly.  The harder it is to mount the tire, the easier it is to seat the bead properly.  There must be some sort of happy medium, but I have not found it.  Even Pacenti tires are a b!tch to mount on Pacenti rims.  But the bead just snaps into place - presto!

David thumbs-hurt-just-thinking-about-mounting-tires in the Mountains

[Jim Bronson]

do they make one of those with a cassette hub?  I'm not about to get into freewheels for the first time in 25 years, so the matching rear is a no-go for me.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/650b.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

------------------------------------------------------------------

signature goes here

[Chris Cullum]

On Dec 17, 2017 9:16 PM, "David Cummings" <flath...@gmail.com> wrote:

Another first world problem: 

Ha, pretty much everything we talk about here is a first world problem, unless people that have no access to clean drinking water are also obsessing about brazed lug shorelines, etc ;-)

FWIW I have had no issues mounting times on Pacenti rims. I do concede that some people have had problems. Challenge tires on 700C rims is a whole 'nother issue! I like tires to mount straight. Having supple, nice riding tires that aren't round defeats the purpose for me.

[Andy Beichler]

Not that I am aware of. I looked but never did find a cassette hub option.  I only bought them because UglyRM went about three or four months with his store closed on eBay. I got tired of waiting.

[Jeff Bertolet]

The ebay wheelset is also available from your LBS through J&B, see it here. Your LBS probably won't match the ebay price, but they will probably true the wheel out of the box and resolve warranty issues should they arise.

[marsh monster]

Thanks for the info.
I would go for the uglyrm wheels, but I want to try and keep the spacing 126 on the frame I'm trying it on. I would rather not try to cold set
the frame, it's from 1984 and the previous owner(s) did some strange things to it during the fixie boom. I think they tried to space it down to get
120mm track wheels in there, I spaced it back to 126.

[Mark Bulgier]

The mysterious "marsh monster" wrote:

> I would go for the uglyrm wheels, but I want to try and keep the spacing 126 

Not sure which wheels you mean.  If the rear is for thread-on freewheel, those are easy to respace to 126.  If it's a Shimano freehub, those can be spaced to 126 too, but it's more work. 

I got some uglyrm wheels a year or two ago, with Shimano freehub, and spaced it down to 126 by purchasing a 7-speed freehub body, and using a different narrower cone on the right.  I described the process here at the time, and shared pictures.  Let me know if I should dig that old post out.

-Mark

[Chris Cullum]

On Dec 18, 2017 10:33 AM, "Mark Bulgier" <ma...@bulgier.net> wrote:

The mysterious "marsh monster" wrote:

> I would go for the uglyrm wheels, but I want to try and keep the spacing 126 

Not sure which wheels you mean.  If the rear is for thread-on freewheel, those are easy to respace to 126.  If it's a Shimano freehub, those can be spaced to 126 too, but it's more work. 

The Pacenti PL23 wheels are long gone. They must have got those rims for next to nothing, when they came out they retailed for $100 per rim. I know because I bought 3 at that price. Uglyrm has the Zac19 wheels with generic Shinano compatible freehubs hubs now. $99 OBO, which is a great deal if you can live with the shortcomings. Link:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F253247116863

I got some uglyrm wheels a year or two ago, with Shimano freehub, and spaced it down to 126 by purchasing a 7-speed freehub body, and using a different narrower cone on the right.  I described the process here at the time, and shared pictures.  Let me know if I should dig that old post out.

-Mark

-

[Igor Belopolsky]

i cant get my Pasela tires to seat the bead well on the zac19. ive tried two layers of velox 19mm tape and still not doing well. wire bead.

[Igor Belopolsky]

I ended up using tubeless tape and that works a lot better.

[Leif Eckstrom]

When using tubeless tape does one layer suffice or do you still do two layers?
Thanks,
Leif
Chicago

[David Parsons]

I use two layers because (a) that's my habit from tubeless tires and (b) the second layer provides extra support at the valve hole (most of my zac19s are drilled SV, so even at lowish pressures I don't want the presta valve burrowing out when the tube is inflated.

[Matt C.]

I bought a pair of the ZAC19 rims when I worked at a shop for pretty cheap to try 650b. I laced them to Velo Orange Hubs (freewheel rear 126mm and technically the front is labeled Dia Compe Ene but same hub) with DT Swiss straight gauge spokes.

I have Pacenti PariMoto tires (38mm) which I found mounted easily with 1 strip of cloth rim tape. However my friend tried to mount his Hetres on them and didn't have much luck.

I rode this wheelset for about 1000 miles commuting. Hubs still spin great. Rims are true.

I'm would be happy to sell this wheelset with the Pacenti tires/tubes for $150 shipped (lower 48 only) If anyone is interested let me know and I can provide pics.

Matt Cook
Bristol, RI

[Igor Belopolsky]

I tried 2 layers of Velox with Pasela wire-bead and it was no go. Tried to remount and use tire talc, not great but better, took a lot of overpressuring.

I then tried 2 layers of tubeless tape (making sure to cover the rim side to side) and used some tire talc and it was much, much better.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/NVwUrs0OYOsW0okP2

[David Cummings]

I have tried all of those techniques and found that soapy water plus over inflation works best. But that gets challenging on the road...

[Ken Freeman]

Is the rim hooked-bead or straight?  Surprising that a kevlar bead would not latch onto a hooked rim.

Ken Freeman

Ann Arbor, MI USA

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/650b.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA

[Chris Freeman]

Hi, could you please dig that post out??? I have searched but with no luck .

Cheers,

Chris

[Mark Bulgier]

Chris Freeman wrote:

> Hi, could you please dig that post out??? I have searched but with no luck .

OK sorry about sending you on a snipe hunt.  It wasn't here in this list, it was on iBOB, and it was three years ago (time files...)

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/internet-bob/4JlZZGOyZ1Y

Three key ingredients: 

1. purchase an Acera 7-speed freewheel body to replace your existing 8-9-10 sp. width freehub body
   
2. replace the right-side cone with a Dura-Ace of unknown model and year, that is thinner right-to-left and has a built-in rubber seal that fits the freehub.
3. put only 6 sprockets on it, with 7-sp. spacers between 'em, and a spacer outboard of the small sprocket.  That allows the freehub to come closer to the frame, without the chain hitting the seatstay.

I could have gotten that hub down to 120 mm, but I stopped at 122 with reduced dish. The wheel I did this on had the original Pacenti PL23 rim, which was known to crack at the spoke holes if the tension is too high.  With most any other rim, 120 shouldn't be a problem.  At 122 mm, I spring the frame open a little each time I put the wheel in -- didn't bother permanently respacing the frame.

Step one may be harder now, 3 years later.  I see the part here:

https://www.niagaracycle.com/categories/shimano-stx-rc-and-acera-x-7-speed-freehub-body

and listed as $17 -- but out of stock.  I didn't search further to see if it's available anywhere else.

Step #2 might be difficult unless we can find out what model/year that cone is.  I just had it in my bin of axles and cones for some reason.  There are probably other cones that'll work -- narrow left-to-right and with the seal attached.  Here's an Ultegra that looks promising: https://www.modernbike.com/ultegra-fh6700-right-hand-lock-nut-unit

But unless you have a pile of cones handy to trial-fit, it's hard to know.  Some bike shops might have a bin of miscellaneous cones they'll let you paw through.

Step #3 required fiddling with spacers a bit to find a combo where the lockring snugs everything up.  I ended up using one thicker aluminum spacer (8-speed I think) and one thinner, steel spacer.  Once again, might require access to a pile of miscellaneous spacers.

Considering the difficulty, there are probably easier ways to go about this, like just building the wheel with a proper hub instead of grafting together a Frankenhub.  On the other hand if you just happen to have the right parts lying around, this could be very easy.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do to help.

-Mark

[David Parsons]

On Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 6:01:38 AM UTC-8, Ken Freeman wrote:

Is the rim hooked-bead or straight?  Surprising that a kevlar bead would not latch onto a hooked rim.

In my experience,  the rim hook grabs the sidewall too tightly for air pressure to push the bead up to it (I have a couple of Confreries at home that are out of service because of this;  I was using them on CR18s & the Confrerie has a really light sidewall, so the bead tends to not completely seat, then the hook ends up cutting it after a thousand miles or so.)  lighter-weight tires suffer more, because the sidewall wants to mold around the hook   CdlVs & Nokian A10s are fine tires, but supple they aint, so the inflated tube can push the tire up more easily.

Ken Freeman

Ann Arbor, MI USA

On Tuesday, December 19, 2017, Igor Belopolsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

I tried 2 layers of Velox with Pasela wire-bead and it was no go. Tried to remount and use tire talc, not great but better, took a lot of overpressuring.

I then tried 2 layers of tubeless tape (making sure to cover the rim side to side) and used some tire talc and it was much, much better.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/NVwUrs0OYOsW0okP2

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to 65...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/650b.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Scott Stulken]

I see one STX-RC/Acera FH body left on Universal Cycles, but they have a "show full availability" button that says they have another 102(!) on order, and should be in by the end of the month: https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=2256

I know it wouldn't be too hard to stretch out my steel bikes to accommodate 8-11 speed wheels, but I've developed an affinity for 7-speed stuff.  It's so rugged and long-lasting, and just works well.  So I've stashed away a few extra FH bodies and cassettes, and keep an eye on the parts availability situation.

- Scott

[David Parsons]

I just cut down the cassettes when wedging 8x or 9x onto a narrow cassette.   The lower-end cassettes are easy, though the fancier ones where the cogs are mounted on a carrier are a bit more of a challenge.

[Andy Beichler]

What about going the opposite direction with hubs? Can you just mount an 8 speed freehub body on a seven speed hub and just dish the wheel?   Are seven speed hubs a bit wider than 8 speed hubs or is the difference made up in spacers on the axle?

[satanas]

^ Usually the hub shell was the same width, if we're talking about road hubs and older MTB hubs. However, there are exceptions. For instance, the original XT HG hubs were 36° only at first, then a bit later 32° became available; the latter had a different part # and a wider hub shell, not just fewer holes. So 36° XT M73x hubs could be reduced from 135mm OLD, but 32° not so much.

Hubs intended for wider DH/FR bikes (many Saint, Zee, maybe Hone) also have wider flange spacing.

Assuming you don't have an extra-wide hub shell, it should (in theory) be possible to replace a 5, 6 or 7 speed freehub body with an 8/9/10 speed version - assuming the method of attachment to the hub shell, axle type (10mm steel preferred), cones and dustcaps, etc, all match, or can be changed so they do. FWIW, I've converted 5/6/7 speed Dura-Ace EX & 740x hubs with 8 speed 740x HG bodies in the past, amongst other hubs.

However, modern cones and dustcaps tend to be more complicated so it's best to get the RH cone that matches the freehub body if you can. Another option is to use a more basic cone which easily clears the freehub body dust seal and just service the hub a bit more often.

The UC freehub body listing is problematic as it lists the STX RC bodies as 7/8 speed; these are *not* more-or-less the same thing, unlike 8/9/10 speed. FWIW, 7 speed HG bodies are ~30mm from the outside edge to the end of the splines, while 8 speed bodies are ~5mm wider. You can of course use an 8 speed body with a 7 speed cassette by adding a 3.5-ish mm spacer behind it, but that doesn't make it a 7 speed body...

Later,
Stephen

[David Parsons]

I've respaced 8/9/10 hubs down to 126mm, and the DS spokes are pretty close to vertical when the wheel is redished.   Of the pile of 7 vs 8/9/10 hubs I've measured (not many;  Shimano & White only) the hub shells didn't vary, but the 8/9/10 freehub was longer.    You can respace a hub by rebuilding the drive end to bring the cassette closer to the dropout, but that's wildly dependent on how the rear triangle is made.

[Scott Stulken]

Yeah, that "7/8" thing annoys me too -- perhaps since STX-RC started out as a 7-speed group and changed to 8-speed before it was discontinued, Universal themselves don't know which one they've got?  If it helps, the spare freehub body I'm holding in my hand with the Y3AP98020 mfg number on the label *is* the correct length for 7-speed (~31mm for mounting cogs, about 35mm from end-to-end.)  :^)

- Scott

[Mitchell Gass]

Andy, what is the OLN of the rear wheel? 130?

[Igor Belopolsky]

I have nothing to add except that I am now using a 7speed HG cassette w/ a spacer on my 8/9/10 hub and like it, along with a Shimano 8 speed friction/SIS downtube shifter but I wish for a 7 speed index

[Stephen Poole]

Your 8 speed shifter should index fine with 7 speeds too. I've used both 8 speed shifters with 7 speed cassettes and 7 speed XT thumbies with 8 speed cassettes with no issues. Just try it!  ;-)

On 26 Dec 2017 2:40 am, "Igor Belopolsky" <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have nothing to add except that I am now using a 7speed HG cassette w/ a spacer on my 8/9/10 hub and like it, along with a Shimano 8 speed friction/SIS downtube shifter but I wish for a 7 speed index

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/650b/1Wi28l5zhac/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 650b+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Igor Belopolsky]

Seems like the 8 doesnt index the 7 cassette well..

On Monday, December 25, 2017 at 11:37:31 AM UTC-5, satanas wrote:

Your 8 speed shifter should index fine with 7 speeds too. I've used both 8 speed shifters with 7 speed cassettes and 7 speed XT thumbies with 8 speed cassettes with no issues. Just try it!  ;-)

On 26 Dec 2017 2:40 am, "Igor Belopolsky" <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have nothing to add except that I am now using a 7speed HG cassette w/ a spacer on my 8/9/10 hub and like it, along with a Shimano 8 speed friction/SIS downtube shifter but I wish for a 7 speed index

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "650b" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/650b/1Wi28l5zhac/unsubscribe.

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 650b+uns...@googlegroups.com.

[Steve Palincsar]

Isn't there an alternate cable routing involved?

The other alternate cable routing, suggested by Brian Jenks, proprietor of Hubbub Cycles, decreases the derailer travel for each click. This makes some Shimano derailers and shifters compatible with Campagnolo cassettes. It is also useful when you want to use a 10-speed cassette with 9-speed shifters, or 9-speed cassette with 8-speed shifters, or an 8-speed cluster with 7-speed shifters. You will lose the use of one sprocket, unless you are using a shortened cassette such as a Shimano Linksys cassette, an 8 of 9 on 7, or 9 of 10 on 7. Note the two tabbed washers in the drawing below -- one to change the cable routing, and the other (with its tab facing to the right in the picture) to secure the cable. You may be able to get by without the second washer.

Unlike the JTek Shiftmate adapters and the Dura-Ace modification, the other alternate cable routings are not standardized. To get the indexing to match the sprocket spacing, you will have to check and readjust the place where the cable attaches.

--https://www.sheldonbrown.com/drivetrain-mixing.shtml

On 12/25/2017 04:24 PM, Igor Belopolsky wrote:

Seems like the 8 doesnt index the 7 cassette well..

On Monday, December 25, 2017 at 11:37:31 AM UTC-5, satanas wrote:

Your 8 speed shifter should index fine with 7 speeds too. I've used both 8 speed shifters with 7 speed cassettes and 7 speed XT thumbies with 8 speed cassettes with no issues. Just try it!  ;-)

On 26 Dec 2017 2:40 am, "Igor Belopolsky" <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have nothing to add except that I am now using a 7speed HG cassette w/ a spacer on my 8/9/10 hub and like it, along with a Shimano 8 speed friction/SIS downtube shifter but I wish for a 7 speed index

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Andy Beichler]

They came spaced at 135 but it was easy to respace them to 130. The locknuts were very thick so switching to a thinner set of locknuts and spacers from a busted hub I had got it down to to 130 no problem.  I am still using them with no problems.

[Stephen Poole]

Nope. The standard cable routing works fine when mixing 7 & 8 speed Shimano, assuming you are using a Shimano road (up to and including 10 speed, except Dura-Ace 740x and Tiagra 4700) or MTB (up to and including 9 speed) rear derailleur.

Dura-Ace 740x (pre-9 speed) uses less cable travel than everything else Shimano. All 9 speed shifters give the correct cable travel for 8 speed cassettes with a 740x rear derailleur, and 7700 rear derailleurs are backwards-compatible with 740x 8 speed shifters by routing the cable in the provided groove on the opposite side of the clamp bolt. That's the only alternate cable routing Shimano sanction.

Tiagra 4700 uses the same cable movement ratio as 11 speed road and so 4700 levers and RDs are only potentially compatible with those parts. Tiagra 4600 and earlier use the "standard" ratio.

Later Shimano RDs, including 10/11 MTB (Dynasys) and 11 speed road, use greater, and mutually incompatible, cable travel than before, to make setup less finicky, which it does.

The Hubbub routing can work very well if one is trying to mix Ergopower levers with Shimano RDs and cassettes, but isn't going to help with intra-Shimano compatibility IME, but I suppose some combo might work, maybe.

Note that sprocket pitch is not constant across Shimano 7 and 8 speed cassettes, despite what online third party documentation might imply - and yes, that includes Sheldon Brown. The cogs are the same thickness for 7 and 8, and there are two (2) different spacer thicknesses for each.

For 7 speeds, the first two spacers (which may be built-in on the second cog and are always built-in on the smallest cog) are 3.3mm thick; this is clearly written on the loose plastic spacers. The others are 3.1mm according to both Shimano and vernier calipers.

For 8 speeds, the first two spacers are again 3.3mm, while the rest are 3.0mm.

The mismatch between 7 & 8 thus accumulates at 0.1mm per cog (0.004") - but only from the 4th cog inwards.

It is at most 0.4 mm at the second innermost cog on an 8 speed cassette with 7 speed shifters; shifting to the last cog is controlled by the limit screw in all cases. 

With 8 speed levers and a 7 speed cassette the error is 0.3mm at the second largest cog; this is usually well within the tolerance provided by the floating upper jockey wheel, provided nothing else is wrong. Note that later RDs (for 9 or 10 speed systems) have less lateral freeplay in their top jockey wheels, which might theoretically make things a bit more finicky.

Later,

Stephen

On 26 Dec 2017 8:55 am, "Steve Palincsar" <pali...@his.com> wrote:

Isn't there an alternate cable routing involved

On 12/25/2017 04:24 PM, Igor Belopolsky wrote:

[Mark Bulgier]

Everyone interested in these things, read Stephen's post carefully and unpack his condensed facts thoroughly, there's a lot of knowledge in that one post.  It may seem like a lot of words but it is actually an "efficient" (if not downright terse) account of a whole bunch of complexity.  You might want to draw yourself a flow-chart!

-Mark

[Stephen Poole]

And of course if you don't want to think about it there's always friction shifting. (Not that people don't argue about that too.)

It's like the old saw about "the knee bone's connected to the thigh bone," and so forth. There are 206 bones in the human body, and quite a few joints, plus ligaments, tendons, nerves muscles, etc. Bicycles are very simple by comparison, and rarely need CT scans or the like for diagnosis.  :-)

As for terseness:

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint- Exupery (who was probably a fixie fan)

Later,

Stephen

On 26 Dec 2017 4:00 pm, "Mark Bulgier" <ma...@bulgier.net> wrote:

Everyone interested in these things, read Stephen's post carefully and unpack his condensed facts thoroughly, there's a lot of knowledge in that one post.  It may seem like a lot of words but it is actually an "efficient" (if not downright terse) account of a whole bunch of complexity.  You might want to draw yourself a flow-chart.

[Igor Belopolsky]

What if the RD that's doing the shifting is a Sachs Huret Duopar...?

:) :(

[Mark Bulgier]

Igor Belopolsky wrote:

> What if the RD that's doing the shifting is a Sachs Huret Duopar...?

Well then friction is your only choice AFAIK.  I doubt you can get it to index, though I never tried.  I also never tried a DuoPar with more than 7 speeds, but it is a very competent derailleur, so I imagine it will be pretty good with modern drivetrains, as long as it has enough reach to cover a modern wider cassette.  Probably does; 8-9-10 is not too much wider than 7-sp.  Anyone know?

Just be aware that it is fragile and prone to self-destruction if you are not aware of certain eccentricities -- namely, never roll the bike backwards or backpedal if the derailleur is aligned under a smaller sprocket than the chain is on.  Like if you stopped and got off the bike with it in low, then bumped the lever so now the mech wants to be on a smaller sprocket.  If you backpedal, the chain jumps off the upper pulley.  If you now pedal forward the chain may not manage to get back onto the pulley, it may lock itself to the cage, and continuing to pedal will bend those fragile little second parallelogram arms, or even tear the derailleur apart.

... Or it can bite you even if you are fully aware of the issue.  I broke one once despite being overly familiar with what you should never do, having seen other people ruin them.  I spec'd them on lots of custom bikes I made in the late-'70s and early '80s and saw more than a few come back mangled. Then, touring in Tuscany with a group of friends, I watched a few people roll out early from our lunch stop.  Just after they went out of sight around a corner, I heard a crash that sounded like one or more cyclists hitting the cobblestones.  I jumped on my bike to sprint over there and render assistance but all I managed to do was mangle my DuoPar, which had gotten aligned under a smaller sprocket while parked.  Luckily, it turned out no one crashed, and I never did figure out what made the crashing noise, so my derailleur was ruined for nothing!

I probably will never use one again, that episode left such a bad taste in my mouth.   I thought I was a good enough bike mechanic that "it'll never happen to me", but my hubris caught up with me.  Still, they do shift very well... until they don't. 

My advice is give one a try if you're so inclined, but not on an expensive overseas vacation, and don't pay full price for a titanium model.  Ti DuoPars are cool and all, but then you'll cry that much more when it blows up.

-Mark

[Igor Belopolsky]

Thanks Mark.

They look nifty, but you're right, finnicky.
I tried to get it to index but it's not doing well. If I had an adjuster it'd probably work out.

I'll probably list it for sale here, ibob or RBW and get something basic and generic Shimano ;0

[Stephen Poole]

The later steel Eco Duopars were less fragile than the earlier Ti ones, but still suffered from the same foibles.

Re 8/9/10 speed use: I haven't tried this (and won't!), but my experience with the Jubilee involved having to do a bit of Dremel work before it would shift all way across a standard 6 speed cassette. The Duopar is based on their Success RD, with the added gubbins, but back when that one was designed 5 or 6 was all that existed. IIRC the Duopar will stretch to 7, but the Duopar's outwards travel is restricted by the extra bits - the top cog cannot be very close to the dropout or shifting into top gear is reluctant. I doubt there's any chance of 8/9/10 working, though I suppose 8/9 on 7, etc, might have a chance.

Despite being aware of the Duopar's failings I managed to break one or two along the way. Eventually, I gave up and used a VX-GT which didn't shift quite as well but was reliable, lighter and cheaper.

Still, any Shimano index-compatible RD will shift better and be *much* more reliable, and most will be lighter and cheaper too. IMHO, the Duopar is best kept in a glass case as a specimen documenting an interesting step in the derailleur's evolution.

Later,

Stephen

[Andy Beichler]

The info you have posted in this thread seems worthy of it's own post to make it easier to search.  

[Mark Bulgier]

Andy Beichler wrote:

> The info you have posted in this thread seems worthy of it's own post to make it easier to search. 

Easier how?

I typed duopar in the search box and hit enter.  This thread was at the top of the search results. I can't imagine how it could be easier.

-Mark 

[Andy Beichler]

I was thinking that if there was a separate post for alternate cable routings, then it might be a great place to dump all the various approaches to it.

[Igor Belopolsky]

I have not had any issues using the DuoPar for a 7 or 8 speed HG cassette in friction mode.

For index I need something else.

[Ken Freeman]

Re the Duopar:  

A lot of Frank Berto’s '80s research on derailleurs seems to have been around “what parts can index successfully?” along with "what makes good derailleurs shift well?"  Regarding the Duo, Huret made an indexing system, the ARIS.  It was not compatible with the Duopar, in that the increment of cable pull provided by the shifter did not match the increment of cable pull needed by the DuoPar derailleur.  That would be a requirement for indexing, that a compatible shifter of some sort needs to exist.  He also indicated it was lacking in the sturdiness that is requisite for touring indexing. 

It meets some of Berto's requirements, however: to maintain a good chain gap over the entire range of a freewheel or cassette regardless of working front sprocket size, and to shift when the jockey wheel aligns with the intended rear sprocket, not shifting early or late.

My reference for Berto is his "Complete Guide to Upgrading Your Bike" which is copyrighted 1988.

From my own experience, I have Huret front and rear shifting on my 1984 Trek 610, now a Frankenbike.  It has Shimano 600EX 6207 freewheel hubs, a 7-speed Shimano freewheel (HG? not sure), an Eco-DuoPar rear derailleur, a SRAM 851 chain, a first-gen Chorus crankset w. 111 Campy BB, a super-light Huret front derailleur, and the original (to the frame) Shimano 600EX 6207 downtube friction shifters.  I keep the friction screw on the right lever rather tight to prevent the derailleur from slipping out of alignment, leading to destructive chain jamming.  Luckily I've always been able to prevent damage.  This setup has been in place for nearly 10 years.  Plan is to get a compact chainset someday - but I need low-Q!

I test mounted the Duo on my 650b, which has 12-34 Shimano 10-speed cassette, but I found also that some of the parts are in the way of the range of motion.  Having just bought a Dremel tool I considered some machining, but decided I might have to buy another Duo if I screwed it up.  So my Terraferma 650b wears a Shimano long-cage rear mech, friction-shifted with Huret DT levers.

Ken Freeman

Ann Arbor, MI USA

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "650b" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to 650b+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.