NOW - Time to Buy a 3DP!

[Kurt at VR-FX]

Damn - I can't think of the right phrase - flip the switch? Pull the
trigger? Take the plunge?? HELL - I just have to Do It - as Nike would
say!!!

As some of you may already know - I don't even have any of my 3DP's
right now. The last one, I left with a buddy of mine back in SD - before
coming to LA - for him to fix it (yup, he fixed the nozzle temp sensor)
- and for him to use for a project of his own.  But - now its KILLING Me
not having a printer. And, although I am doing some 3D Printing and work
on that aircraft project t Grumman - I can't really use the printers in
there for personal projects - since we are not supposed to do personal
project - since lab is essentially closed cause of Covid - and only open
for specific work related projects - like the aircraft project.

So - as you can imagine - I don't want spend a lot. And, I know there
was a recent thread - of the Killer 3DP - like Ender3 Killing the Prusa
MK3. As such, I figure its probably the Ender3 I should get. As I really
don't want to spend more than around $300. Hopefully I don't have to do
any upgrades to it - to have it functioning properly! I know there's an
all metal hot end upgrade option - If I'm not mistaken.

Anyway - I'd love the Input. Especially from you Andy!

TIA         ...Kurt

[Andy Cohen]

You know you can just pm me directly!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 13, 2020, at 11:59 AM, Kurt at VR-FX <vr...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> Damn - I can't think of the right phrase - flip the switch? Pull the trigger? Take the plunge?? HELL - I just have to Do It - as Nike would say!!!

[James Fackert]

some friends doing good work with the artillery, and I am anxiously awaiting my new dual extruder artist?

have a prusa minis and prusa at work but not impressed.

I would not buy anything that does not have ribbon cables and connectorized heater fans and sensors, and easy-in and out nozzle-heatbreak assembly.

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[Kurt at VR-FX]

Yes - but, also figured I would see what others thought!

Also - figured it would make for an interesting post.

But...

-K-

[Ron Frazier (3DPGRP)]

Buy a Delta. Not a bed slinger. Brainwash it so you have all the safety features. I would like my Anycubic Kossel if I got it working. It was working before I tried to upgrade firmware. I'm sure Andy would say get something not proprietary. $ 300 might be tough. Don't know what's in the market now. Add $ 100 to $ 200 for an enclosure if you want one. If you don't want a Delta, I would look into corexy so the build plate isn't dancing all around.

Ron

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Delta printers rock. I prefer to never physically level a bed.
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[Kurt at VR-FX]

Hey there James!

Thanks for the input. More below...

On 11/13/2020 5:38 PM, James Fackert wrote:

some friends doing good work with the artillery

Never heard of that one...

and I am anxiously awaiting my new dual extruder artist?

You question your own comment? But, I know that IDEX - still outside of my price range I think.

have a prusa minis and prusa at work but not impressed.

I don't know - I kinda liked the Prusa - dabbled with them at the FabLab at work - but, still outside my price range!

I would not buy anything that does not have ribbon cables and connectorized heater fans and sensors, and easy-in and out nozzle-heatbreak assembly.

I hear you. I've had issues with changing nozzles - and, if its difficult - it becomes a nightmare. Did a LOT of Nozzle changing at my last job is SD - mainly to go between smaller (.4mm) - and larger (.6mm) - and I LOVED Printing with the Larger nozzle. Even printed with even LARGER ones - which was kinda wild!

-K-

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[Nikki Egleton]

I like the Ender 5, especially if you don't want the bed moving in the Y-axis. It works just fine right out of the box and now costs less than $300. I highly recommend using it as is before purchasing any upgrades. Many of the things folks say they did to modify the ender 5 or the ender 3 are now stock features when you buy it new.

[Vishal Pai]

I was on the same fence few years back when I was looking to build a small print farm(4 printers) and there was no single printer that had big red flags (no mechanical issues to start with,thermal runway enabled,open board,easy spares,linear rail accuracy) 

Ended to have to compromise a few requirements and bought CR-10 Minis for 200$ a pop. Recently upgraded them with Whambam PEI magnetic sheets. 

Best decision ever. The 300 bed is super efficient and space+cost saver. Spares easily available and everything is open. Upgraded one of them with linear rails on X and Y. Nothing noticeable in quality so didn't upgrade the rest.

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[Kurt at VR-FX]

Actually - I think I remember you posting about the rails upgrade here on the forum a little while back. Thanks for the input.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/CAJUaB-N%3Db%2BxFJaMh5Nqcd2N7Jd3L4ZHM8iAWFscbdpuc4V6qcQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Kurt at VR-FX]

Thanks for your input Nikki. I see Ender 5 Pro & Plus on MatterHackers - but, not just the regular Ender5, and they are $379 & $549, respectively. Am curious where to get the Ender 5, for less than $300. Is it a US distributor - or, I need to purchase direct from Creality?

Thanks,
Kurt

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[James Fackert]

Artillery-3d.com sidewinder or genius, or jgmaker artist w dual independent extruders on a linear rail.

Both have ribbon cables instead of cable bundles, easily pluggable heaters motors and sensors, and easily swappable hot end/heat break assy.

The latter is just fulfilling on kickstarter, soon to be generally available.

Lots of youtube reviews kicking around on both.

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[pjpt...@gmail.com]

Kurt, I've sent you a PM. 
-P

[markni...@gmail.com]

Kurt,

The  Kingroon KP3s is on sales on Amazon for $140.00 shipped:  https://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Function-Assemble-Printing-180x180x180mm/dp/B08F51DPRX/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3Q5EVHGCEF0NT&dchild=1&keywords=kingroon+3d+printer&qid=1605422905&sprefix=Kingroon%2Caps%2C189&sr=8-3

Before you start laughing too hard be aware that it has linear rails on the X and Y axis, the Z is delrin rollers on aluminum extrusion.

It has a direct drive extruder, 32 bit board with color touch screen, and Alex Kenis didn't think it was too bad:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDVaoAK_rnk

[markni...@gmail.com]

I'll let whosawwhatsis weigh in on that Z axis design, as it appears to  be greatly similar to one near and dear to his heart.

[Nikki Egleton]

Kurt,

I purchased mine directly from Creality.

[Ray Price]

I would vote for purchasing from Tiny Machines down in Texas.  Excellent service and they are distributors for Creality and a few others.

https://tiny-machines-3d.myshopify.com/products/ender-3-pro-3d-printer ($289)

They assemble and test all the machines they send out, and offer great customer service.  Had an issue with my CR10s PRO v2 from them and they set up a call on a Saturday morning to step me through confirming it was the motherboard.  The motherboard shipped later that day. They will also install upgrades before they ship.

If not them, then go directly to Creality and do not pass go, do not collect $200.  

 

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[Kurt at VR-FX]

Yeah - that really sounds insanely dirt cheap! And, you comment about "it has linear rails on the X and Y axis, the Z is delrin rollers on aluminum extrusion" - it sounds like those are impressive features - and, hard to believe they would be features on such a cheap machine. Sounds a bit like a Rail Core.

Am surprised nobody on this forum has brought up this printer before - if its so cheap. They seriously MUST cut corners somewhere on a machine like these, as I remember years ago, I think it was on Andy's podcast, the idea that sourcing of the parts would cost minimal $200 for a cheap machine - much less, having it fully built.

Now - right before sending this, I figured - let me peek at the Amazon link. Price is now $159 shipped.

Also, I've seen cantilevered build plates in the past, will admit - have NOT seen a cantilevered print head gantry before - which make me even more skeptical on this sucker...

-K-

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[Zell Nanashi]

So, I have a JGmaker magic. I'm still pretty new at this, and have nothing to compare it to, so all i can really say here is it seems to work good. detail is nice and no issues with the prints beyond my own design flaws. Its $199 now

[markni...@gmail.com]

Kurt,

The  cantilevered print head is a la Bukito, which is why I referenced Whosawwhatsis.

If you reread that thread, a few threads back, he makes a very good argument for it.

Also with a direct drive extruder, it eliminates 2 potential problems with the Ender 3.

I wasn't pulling your chain, I ordered one of these for $140.00.

Alex Kenis says the build quality is good, and he is picky. 

[James Fackert]

The prusa mini has a cantilevered print head... And heat break slips into heart sink and 3 set screws. But it's non standard OD, and no connector used heater or thermistor.

We have two, have had issues with leveling sensors going bad. also has Teflon lined heat break which must be replaced.

Not sure what makes it worth 3x...

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[Vishal Pai]

My firm was the official Amazon return agent for Kingroon all of 2018-2019. ( I still have a huge lot of their KP1 printers..box style plug and play )

I do not recommend Kingroon products and 3d printers. It will be a long post for some other day but the main concern is the quality of the products and questionable business practices . I would rather buy Harbor Freight stuff than Kingroon. 

Buyer beware ! 

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[darrel...@gmail.com]

So, Kurt, did you put down your money yet?

[Kurt at VR-FX]

Nope!

Actually - you're funny!!!

Ur so quiet - and, this response - I know its Partially to Bust-my-Chops!

Truth is - yeah - I'm DYING To seriously be 3D Printing again!!! That being said - things are stressful lately - as I am prepping to move. That's part of why I haven't made a decision. And, even a Very Good Friend of mine here made a great suggestion/offer (thanks PP - still gotta hit U back!) - but, its been crazy. Actually - one option I am looking at is to Grab back one of my machines - so then I will have a 3DP!

Still - would love to have a new one - OMG the smell of a new 3DP - although NOT as exciting as the smell of a new car! (Hell - I hear they bottle that smell - which is probably NOT a good idea...)

So - yeah - I'm still trying to figure the right direction.

But - Hey Dude - its Great to hear from you again! Should I finally have my hands on a 3DP again soon - believe me - I PROMISE to post More - and post More about my Projects! I think that Dec. could see me blabbering a LOT on here...

-K-

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[donutboy3]

I've been looking to upgrade my 3DP as well. I'm looking at the Sainsmart Coreception. It's on amazon now for $479. The rumor is the is will go under $400 for black friday. 

[Kurt at VR-FX]

Will admit - looking at new 3DP - isn't the same as truly upgrading your 3DP. Now - if you said you wanted to upgrade your 3DP collection or toolchain - with a new 3DP - that would make more sense. Just busting a little chops here in regards to wording...

Personally - I have no input on the Sainsmart - but, maybe someone else here in the forum may chime in.

-K-

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[Edward Simpson]

Sainsmart's thing is rebranding with slight tweaks for 3D printers, that printer is also known as the Two Trees Sapphire Pro, I've linked to a review that came up a few months ago on it, but I'm not an owner so just passing on what I've found in the past.

[donutboy3]

During my research a lot of people say that the sainsmart coreception is an upgraded creality corexy elf. I'm hoping that the coreception goes sub $400 on black friday so I get it. If not, it's back to the hunt.

[markni...@gmail.com]

Nope, the  sainsmart coreception , is not a Sapphire Pro, I've got one. Might need a bit more tweaking than Kurt is willing to do.

The Sapphire Plus is a better choice, if there are any around. I haven't seen it lately. 

[donutboy3]

Which one do you have and why do you say the Sapphire Plus is better? Thanks

[Petr Ptacek]

The sainsmart coreception is almost identical to the creativity elf, it is not upgrades really and it is not sapphire pro. That's a smaller printer.

I have coreception. My two cents is the printer on its own is not great, but it had great potential and if you are willing to put money to upgrades, it is a great platform.

Extruder is junk and is facing backwards, platform is too thin for the size and not flat, control board has custom goofy FW, for the basics.

Mechanically, it is not bad although I don't like the two independent z axis. I like compact footprint and it is easy to enclose the printer.

My upgrades so far are reinforcing brackets, MIC6 build plate with AC silicone heater, BMG + e3d V6, Maestro board. I still want to couple the z axis together to one stepper.

Before you ask, I don't need mesh leveling with this setup because plate is simply ... flat.

Overall happy with result, minimal effort, but you will sink money into it.

-P

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[donutboy3]

Thanks for the info. 

I guess my question now would be is it worth getting a coreception or should I look at something else for more money?

[markni...@gmail.com]

donutboy, I actually have both, but have not had time to assemble the Sapphire Plus, due to work constraints.

The Plus has a bigger build area, much better frame, 2 leadscrews, belted together under the frame so that they stay in sync.

From looking at the Plus, it seems that Sapphire attempted to fix all the problems with the Pro, and then made it larger.

If you buy the Plus from Gearbest, get the version with Trinamic stepper drivers.

[TobyCWood]

Both machines look really cool. If I had room...

[donutboy3]

You make a good case for the Sapphire Plus. OK

so now the choices are Corecentric or Sapphire Plus. 

All opinions and votes will be welcomed.

PS 

Sorry I hijacked the post.

[TobyCWood]

Ok...

The linear rail Vs the rods are the same IME in Z. Both use the linear rails in X and Y.

The Coreception comes as a Direct Drive. The Sapphire comes as a Bowden setup. Direct drive will do better when all else is equal... although the distance from the feeder into the extruder is a bit longer than I like it's not a Bowden. Looks like you could upgrade to a Bondtech too which I would do.

I'd go Coreception. I also like the extrusions which allow for all sorts of mods and stuff like enclosing panels.

$549! NICE!

[pjpt...@gmail.com]

Sorry, in my previous post I mixed up Sapphire Pro (220mm) with a new Sapphire Plus (300mm). Yeah, they fixed some stuff and broke some other.

You will get just 2 linear rails instead of 4 rods, that's not good for a 300 mm build plate. No direct extruder option (Coreception has both), and their solution to couple two z-axes is well ... interesting: https://youtu.be/cKA5iPzMgVI?t=217

Mind you each stepper has its own individual controller driver since they use again Robin Nano.

I would pass, save money, get Coreception, do upgrades that are actually useful.

Just my 2 cents.

[markni...@gmail.com]

Okay, Just my 2 cents regarding the frames of the Sapphire Plus vs the Coreception.

The 4 corner posts on the Plus are 2040 extrusions, they're 2020 on the Coreception.

  The top plate on the Coreception is flat, meaning it is attached by 4 M5 screws into the 2020 extrusion.

The top plate on the Plus is a right angle on all 4 sides allowing both top and side fasteners securing the top plate to the frame. This along with the 2040 extrusions makes a much stiffer frame.

All of these bowden extruders allow for a direct drive conversion, even including the Ender 3. Look around, the more elaborate conversions are naturally more expensive, but the Plus comes with a BMG clone, possibly saving a few bucks.

Both of these printers are a platform for building a better printer out of them.

If this were my very first printer, I would not chose a core XY kit of either flavor, do a simpler kit first.

As an aside, 3dprinters online has the Plus on sale for $399.00. Take the 150 bucks you save over the Coreception and buy high quality after market parts to finish your printer, and you will have a better printer for less money.

If this is your first printer, you are not capable of doing this, unless you are a savant.

[donutboy3]

I've been printing for probably close to 3 years. This would be my second printer. My first was a Tevo Tarantula. I've modified it so much it's more of a Franken-Tula now. 

I want to get a corexy printer so I can essentially "up my game".  

I really appreciate everyone's input on this. 

[Tim Keller]

Donutboy3,

The Tevo Tarantula was also my first printer... and at the end it was more modified than original. Oddly, the extruder was one of the few things I never had an issue with. What killed my Tarantula was a heated bed that never tried to be level and over the 3 years I owned the printer became more and more warped to the point that I could only really print in a 50mmx50mm spot on the bed.

I replaced it with an Ender 5 plus. It's not a traditional corexy, but I've been very happy with it. The only thing I added was a PEI sheet but I've run the printer entirely stock to print all the parts for an MPCNC (Most Printed CNC machine) without issue.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/3d-printing-tips--tricks/ac3df233-de36-48bc-b05c-158051e55cb6n%40googlegroups.com.

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[Kurt at VR-FX]

Hey DonutBoy - you know, considering your webname - there used to be a 3DP that does pancakes. And, I don't mean the machine in hotels. I mean, one you can actually design various shapes & patterns of pancakes and "print" them.

But, yeah - go for it - up that Game!!!

-K-

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[BearsFan315]

following along and reading, as I am pondering getting my second 3d printer and looking to get a Core XY. mainly for larger print area and such. Been 3d printing for a while now, First 3d Printer was the Wanhao i3 (the original one) got one of the first ones shipped. the old school 2 piece control box on a string :) along with many on the forum did testing, upgrades, etc... and that machine is a solid printer. i can turn it on, level it out and let it run non stop till i am tired. done several 10+ hour prints for friends doing prototypes. was fun learning experience, as well as doing upgrades, printing parts for it, designing parts for it, and just printing with it.

I have been reading up on several and the one i keep going back to is the Ender 5, but also the sainsmart, and a few others. 

from reading things to look for are:

Direct Drive (or ability to convert to)

Auto Leveling (off the shelf with support of market options)

Quiet Stepper Drivers (run quieter & smoother)

Filament Sensor (run out or jam)

Print Resume (resume a print on power failure)

see that some allow hot end upgrades and bolt ons easily to e3d, bondtech, etc...

one thing i really wanted to do on next printers was dual extrusion... mainly to print support material !! something easy to remove or dissolve. 95% of the time i print PLA

how are the extruders that print 2 filaments ? any worth the effort or trial ?

[Alan Biocca]

The Voron's look interesting, they have corexy and corexz designs. There are various partial kits available, and if you don't have a printer or a friend with a printer to make some parts they have a PIF (print it forward) program that you could take advantage of. 

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[Kurt at VR-FX]

2 Extruders? IDEX designs I think are best. Of course, tool changers are an option - as well as I think its Cameleon (sp?) that Andy spoke of recently.

FYI - since this was my thread - I got my old WanHao D6 back - and have been cranking it out off-and-on the past few weeks.

Will post more of my projects soon...

-K-

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[BearsFan315]

had the TronXY5SA series on the watch list but after following and reading iFactory One Build thread, kind of marked that one off the list or the buyer beware list. 
ones that are on the list:

Creality Ender 5 Series

SainSmart Coreception  

was strange since the TronXY x5SA made several 3printer core xy top 5 lists ?! 

[donutboy3]

If you're considering the sainsmart coreception the creativity elf is pretty much the same printer. You can get it at amazon with a coupon for $409. BTW this is one I'm also considering. 

[LukeH]

The TronXY machines, including the X5SA have been carefully designed to tick boxes on spec sheets - they have all the features, like 32-bit controllers, bed levelling, and 24V PSU, which means it scores high on websites that compare feature lists, but none of that actually translates into reliable high quality printing.

The controller board is incredibly limited, the levelling sensor is terrible and lacks precision, the design of the print head is odd and and weighs more than a pound, resulting in print artefacts (and the parts cooling fan blows directly on the hot block), etc.

You can fix all of that stuff, but by the time you have replaced the control board, the hot end, the extruder, the fans, the belts and pulleys, the stepper mounts, the levelling sensor, the firmware, the lead screws, the bearings, the PSU, etc, you would have spent a whole lot of money for essentially some extrusion and a few end stops. :)

[BearsFan315]

looked at it but think the ender looks like a better machine overall.

i would like a machine that i can run out the box, after assembling. then can learn the machine and tweak and upgrade over time as needed or as i want. reliable and dependable.

also debating on a cantilever bed or full support ?!? i like the full support granted more moving parts 

saw some info on the Ender 6 as well.

[Luke Hartfiel]

A simply supported (full support) bed is going to be better than a cantilever bed, unless I guess opted for a small build volume. 

It is going to provide better stability for larger build plates, and better bang for buck when comparing printers of the same size. The downside is that you’ll have stepper motors and lead screws that can’t easily be hidden behind neatly moulded panels, so it will have a more industrial aesthetic, which matters to some people.

If you are considering a kit printer, then also consider a scratch build with an established design, such as a Voron or a Hypercube (or HEVO - “Hypercube Evolved”). Putting together a scratch build based on a well established design is exactly the same as putting together a kit printer, except you have to buy all the bits separately. The advantage is that you can get all the features you want at the best possible price. There are large, dedicated forums on these established designs. You can even buy kits where someone else has selected all the parts for you. The downside is that you’ll have zero manufacturer support (except from individual component suppliers).

On 5 Jan 2021, at 11:13 am, BearsFan315 <bears...@gmail.com> wrote:

looked at it but think the ender looks like a better machine overall.

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[darrel...@gmail.com]

Hey Kurt,

Speaking of IDEX designs, I didn't notice until just now that the new Flashforge Creator Pro 2 is an IDEX!  $899, way cheaper than the original Replicator that it resembles. Of course lots of things are cheaper now. Still, I'm tempted. It would be nice to have a familiar yet better machine.

-_DJ

[Kurt at VR-FX]

Yeah Darrell - I too would LOVE to get myself an IDEX machine, since for me - it would open up a LOT of possibilities!!! But, certainly can't afford one quite yet...

Kurt

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