Taking away Anonymous participation in Vilfredo

[Pietro Speroni di Fenizio]

Dear all, when Vilfredo started we soon realised that Vilfredo, due to its unusual voting system was not so much subject to being dominated by people voting multiple times. In the sense that if people vote 20 times in exactly the same way, the Pareto Front result would not change. So we permitted Anonymous Voting and Anonymous Proposing. 

But recently we started having problems. First of all during the Matera lesson when 30 people participated, it was common for people to vote and propose without having done the login. In theory this should not be a problem. After you vote the system asks you to login, or even to register or to vote anonymously. What happened is that when people started to login, the system crashed and the people lost what they did. As now people when they vote also should write why they vote against a proposal, this can be unsettling. They read and commented 30 proposals, and then all that work was gone. They were very patient.

This could be solved in some other ways, and it is not so related to Anonymity. Another issue instead is.

Recently some people of the Pirate Party started using Vilfredo, and some voted anonymously. And there anonymous voting gave problems. Because if you vote anonymously, we don't have your email address. And as such we cannot contact you as a key player. We cannot say to others to contact you as well. In other words Vilfredo AI moderation was severely limited.

So I would suggest to take away Anonymity. It might be a temporary measure or a permanent one. If someone wants to be anonymous they can still register under a pseudonym. But the system can send them an email if they are key players.

[Giovani Spagnolo]

 why not maling it part of some "advanced proposal settings" ?

so who's creating the question can decide whether or not to enable anonimity, and the system will tell him what the limitations are so they know what the'll be doing.

Gs

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[Pietro Speroni di Fenizio]

Hi Giovani,

I thought a lot about your idea. And then this morning I realised something.

People who vote anonymously are not just losing the extra information about if they are Key Players. They also lose the possibility to change their vote. 

Vilfredo has a point of being a fair system. But an asymmetry between how people participate risks taking away this fairness. In particular if I vote in an anyomous way, and I am a key player I am putting myself out of reach from the follow up discussion. Thus cornering everybody else into finding the agreement, while I will never change my position. This is not ok.

It would be different if people could vote registered, and then the system did not show who they were. But of course this would put me and Derek (the db maintainers) into the unpleasent position of being the only person who could easily find out who those people are. Which is not where I want us to be.

But considering people can just make a fare one time registration and use that to vote, I really do not see the issue.

We can keep anonymous proposing, for now. At least until the proposing phase does not become more dynamic. 

If someone has an idea on hot to crypt who voted for what, it might be a nice moment to say so :-).

Pietro

[Giovani Spagnolo]

I see your point.

Personally, what I think is that a mistake all decision making platforms are doing is trying to enforce "the right way" to discuss/decide on something. I believe that effective decision-making can happen in many different ways, and its success is highly correlated with the ability of the person modelling the decision maling process to pick the right "settings" for each discussion phase. This is the approach prototyped in "rule2gether", but never implemented (http://do2gether.telematicsfreedom.org/screenshots/D2GHiDraftPhase3.PNG/image_view_fullscreen.html)

More mockups and some features at http://do2gether.telematicsfreedom.org/software/draft2gether/d2g-draft-features/10.html

All you said about anonymity below is true, but may be desired "by design". For example, think about someone asking about some controversial issue, let's say drugs, abortion, or any other ethical/moral issue. It could be also political, depending on where you live (China?). Think that someone might be afraid of telling something under its real name, or even under a pseudonym if email or any traceable info is required for registration. These people (could be a minority) might be afraid to participate, either because they could be accused of something "wrong", but they could also be afraid to be telling something "against what most of people in the discussion might think" and be afraid of be derided by the majority. Also, if you think of some political or religious issues, there are surely issues where people (both believers or atheists, extreme right or left wing activists) will *never* change their mind :-) and they could prefer to be anonymous.

This is just an example, and may not be the best one I could think of now... anyway my point is that mass online decision-making platforms need to offer flexible decision-making workflows (it's OK to offer one by default or a few templates for the sake of usability). 

Even more important, is to make sure the process of building or configuring the "advanced options" is built in a way to educate the user that is building it on what the consequences of his setup are (for example, you can explain him that anonymity might cause "cornering people"). The same thing could be explained for the end user when sending an anonymous contribution (ie.: "Warning: if you vote anonymously you cannot change your vote later. Please consider registering under your real name or a pseudonym").

cheers,

giovani

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[Pietro Speroni di Fenizio]

Hi Giovani,

Vilfredo is absolutely trying to promote the (mathematically) correct way of taking decisions. That's the whole point!

We do the math, we only provide service for small groups because those are the only one we can mathematically handle. Getting a group reach a decision by getting the majority to impose it to the minority is easy. Everybody does that. That's not what we support.

And as such Vilfredo must become synonim of fair participation. Just tourning on a warning is not ok because it is not in line with the general direction of the website. We can keep the code if you think you might want to use it. But we cannot support an unfair participation.

I hear you regarding people who NEED anonimity. The situation is terrible with the NSA and other countries. There are many many reasons why people should be given the possibility to vote anonymously. But if we do it we need to do it right.

For now the right way is that such person must make an anonymous email address (many people are working on how to make this possible). Use that to register. And then vote using a pseudonym. And change the pseudonym for each question. They can connect to Vilfredo through TOR. Just letting people voting anonymously is, I am sorry, a sloppy solution. 

What we could do is: take away anonymous voting. Add a button explaining how to participate anonymously, by giving info on how to set up an anonymous email (at least to mailinator, but smari is working on a decentralised one), register and use TOR.

Should I start a Vilfredo question on how to solve this?

Sent from my iPad

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[Alessandro Ciofini]

Dear Pietro, dear all,
I think time is ready to open a new question on Vilfredo about this. Isn't it?
Cheers,
Alessandro

[Pietro Speroni di Fenizio]

Yes, I am preparing it right now.

Thanks.

Pietro

[Pietro Speroni di Fenizio]

Ok,

I just wrote the Vilfredo question on Anonymity:

How should Vilfredo handle participants who wish to remain anonymous?

http://vilfredo.org/viewquestion.php?q=145&room=Vilfredo

I copy and paste the text:

Vilfredo used to permit to participants to vote anonymously without logging in. We have temporarily suspended this as it was starting to give problems. Participants who did not register have a hard time in keeping up to date with the question:

• they cannot receive emails;
• they cannot be told they are key players, 
• nor can they be invited to convince someone to change their vote; 
• In fact they cannot change their vote at all. 

As such they slow down the participation for all, forcing everybody to go through more generations than really necessary.

On the other side the possibility to vote anonymously is important for people who are living in oppressive regimes, or that simply feel they might fall under scrutiny if they express their real point of view in a public discussion. Giving the possibility to people to vote anonymously permits us to always hear the other side of the story. And invite people to play devil's advocate. Eventually finding a wider consensus. Note that it is not necessary that a country censors people for anonymity to be necessary. Way before people are censored, self censorship of people who hold unpopular views appear.

How should Vilfredo handle people who wish to participate anonymously?

 This question was induced by this Discussion in the Vilfredo Develops in Athens Google Group. And should be considered an official developmental question giving directions for future Vilfredo developments.

 

[David Bovill]

I need to think about this, and to answer it properly - but as I may never answer if I do that :)

I think there are a few aspects to consider and act on:

1. Make registration easy and one click. Really make it super easy. Open ID, Facebook, Twitter, and especiall Mozilla Persona - http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/persona/
   
2. Allow their identity to be protected, so they look anonymous to others, but into to the system. Allow them to reveal their identity later. So have layers of anonymity.
3. Allow vague and indirect input form supporters" - legally speaking this is like having a voluntary association of football supporters, with the association having representation on the board. membership to the voluntary association is very informal - but it has influence on the vote.

Think of it as a visible cloud of influence - maybe the anonymous input is visible like polysacharide chains on dendrimer protein cores - but has no mathematical voting sturcture - just some vague interference that people can take into account.

With regard to fairness - fairness equals the freedom to vote and participate, and making the system as easy as possible for people to take part, and active outreach to encourage participation, and active statistical polling of marginalised groups that do not take part. There is an actual benefit to not haivng certain powers if you do not register - as it acts as an incentive to do so - an incentive to participation.

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[Pietro Speroni di Fenizio]

David, can you please upload your proposal at: http://vilfredo.org/viewquestion.php?q=145&room=Vilfredo

Thanks,

Pietro

[Pietro Speroni di Fenizio]

Dear all,

we have moved on the question in Vilfredo about Anonymous Participation.  

YOU CAN NOW VOTE on 11 wonderful proposals!

http://vilfredo.org/viewquestion.php?q=145&room=Vilfredo

We waited so long to let everybody write their proposal. We also changed the code to store a snapshot of the graph as people vote. Eventually we would like to make a little video where you can see how the Pareto Form is formed.

For those who have used Vilfredo before you might find a few changes. 

-First of all now we vote with icons. Prettier :-)

-The default is that you agree with every proposal. 

-You can say that you do not agree with a proposal or that you do not understand it. For now not understanding a proposal or not agreeing with it are treated in the same way. Eventually I am developing the math to differentiate between the two cases. (There are some problems with the obvious solution, that then domination would not be transitiva. A>B>C would not mean A>C. Which is a problem. But we did find a solution for that, need to have enough data to test it, and then implement it)

-when you do not agree with a proposal, or do not understand you must say why. Or you can agree on the reasons someone else wrote. Vilfredo has been missing a comment system that could explain why people vote how they do. And this could be a good step in this direction.

-After you have voted you can change your vote, and see how the Pareto Front changes as you vote. We don't fear strategic voting. We empower everybody to be equally strategic so the result is the actual compromise of what everybody does.

-You can see if you are a Key Player, and who else is a Key Player. You are also invited to convince key players to vote for proposals you like

All those comments that people wrote are now used by other people to try to convince them. If we go to another generations they can also be used to help people modify the proposals.

Good luck,

Pietro

http://vilfredo.org/viewquestion.php?q=145&room=Vilfredo

[Pietro Speroni di Fenizio]

Ok, so far 9 person have voted on the question. The question had 11 proposals (from 10 people, but the person who wrote two was me as someone asked me to post one they were unable to post. So actually 11 people).

I would say, please vote today, and then we'll move on to the next generation. I already have a very good idea of what I want to write.

Also by voting you get to see who voted what, and the graph.

Also there are few key players. If you are one of them (Cal, Ciovo, Parmigianino, Ford, CAnderson) consider if you can make the world a simpler place by changing your vote. Also everybody else check if you can change your vote and make the Pareto Front more similar to what you wish. At the beginning of the Vote you vote for what you believe, but as more people vote now you should focus more on making sure the Pareto Front is as similar as possible to what you believe. Maybe by taking away a vote to something that you only partially agree with, you might change the Pareto Front and have something more important appear instead. We do not check for this as it would be computationally prohibitively expensive. Also we do not, at this time, know which proposals do you prefer. Just which are good enough. 

We are considering changing the voting system in that direction, but it will take time.

So:

Messieurs,  faites vos jeux, :-)

http://vilfredo.org/viewquestion.php?q=145&room=Vilfredo

Pietro

[Pietro Speroni di Fenizio]

Thanks to all of you who voted. 11 people participated in voting the question.

You can see the result here:

The question is here:

http://vilfredo.org/viewquestion.php?q=145&room=Vilfredo

We also have 4 Key Players. We have invited them to change their mind before the end of the voting session. The preferred not to. So now Vilfredo (as a punishment ;-) ) has sent each of them a mail asking them to rewrite the proposal they did not like. Those are:

Cal for 2400

canderson for 2396 & 2405

Ford & Parmigianino for 2399

Maybe in a future version Vilfredo could help Ford and Parmigianino to get in touch and work on a version of 2399 together. But this does not stop what people can and should do. Anybody can try to integrate the various ideas from various proposals. If there is a proposal which you did not like you should try to rewrite it. rewriting a proposal you do not like has often been the best way to reach a hard to find consensus. Another thing that you can do is to look at what proposal you do support that are in the Pareto Front and try to merge them. Or take a proposal that you like and make it more sexy by rewriting it by adding elements from other proposals you did not like.

Have fun!

[Pietro Speroni di Fenizio]

I am about to move on the question on anonymity to the voting phase of the second generation. If you still want to write something please do it now.

http://vilfredo.org/viewquestion.php?q=145&room=Vilfredo

Cheers,

Pietro

[Derek Paterson]

On 14/10/2013 14:35, Pietro Speroni di Fenizio wrote:
> I am about to move on the question on anonymity to the voting phase of
> the second generation. If you still want to write something please do
> it now.

If you do it later this evening I will have time to write something.....
Up to you :-)

Been busier than a bull in a china mega sized china factory


>
> http://vilfredo.org/viewquestion.php?q=145&room=Vilfredo
>
> Cheers,
> Pietro

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[Pietro Speroni di Fenizio]

The question on Anonymity just moved on.

You now can (and should!!) vote. 

Remember that Vilfredo requires people to participate for it to work. 

http://vilfredo.org/viewquestion.php?q=145&room=Vilfredo

[Pietro Speroni di Fenizio]

Last call to vote on the second generation of the question on Anonymity.

Please vote now, I will move it on tomorrow morning.

http://vilfredo.org/viewquestion.php?q=145&room=Vilfredo

[Pietro Speroni di Fenizio]

Dear All,

I moved on the question on Anonymity.

http://vilfredo.org/viewquestion.php?q=145&room=Vilfredo

You can see here the result:

We started with 10 proposals and ended with 4 proposals in the Pareto Front.

Last generation we started with 11 proposals and ended with 6. So we are slowly going toward a synthesis. But this time there were also less people participating (which is one of the reason why the PF was smaller).

Also notice that one players wrote a proposal and voted only for that. Generally we try to discourage this way of voting, as it represents a person who is imposing his will over everybody. On the other side it is ok if it is done sparingly and the person honestly believes that his proposal was the only one acceptable. To find out who voted only for his own post you need to look at the tables.

We have a number of key players. I did try to contact many of them asking them to change their vote. And it looks like I was the only one doing that. In any case for all those that did NOT change their vote Vilfredo will have contacted you asking you to modify a proposal. In particular to rewrite in a way that you like the proposal that you refused to vote. Please do not ignore that. And please make sure those emails do not go into the spam folder. Or it will be hard for anybody in future to access them.

Those are:

CAnderson should rewrite 2433;
Giovani should rewrite 2440;
Ciovo should rewrite 2399 and 2433 and 2440
And Parmigianino should rewrite 2399

Or viceversa:
the 2433 should be rewritten by CAnderson and Ciovo
the 2440 by Ciovo and Giovani
and the 2399 by Parmigianino and Ciovo.

I wonder if Vilfredo should offer a place for collaborative writing in those cases. 

Congratulation to Cal for being so open minded to accept all proposals offered in the Pareto Front. Maybe he should try to merge them all.

As you write your proposals consider also who will actually do the work you are proposing. Right now Vilfredo is being programmed by me and Derek (mostly by Derek, with the algorithm thought out by me). If you present a big work to be done, are you also willing to participate in the coding of it? Or could you find someone that does it for you? Unfortunately the reality of a small project is that we all have big dreams, but little time. So please do not discount proposals that looks too modest. Sometimes that's as much as we can afford timewise.

Happy writing, (Ciovo, we feel your pain ;)

Pietro

[Pietro Speroni di Fenizio]

Dear all,

a whole month has passed. And possibly this might have lead people to better digest the various options we have respect to anonymity.

In any case the question now moved (by itself) to the next phase. So we are now in the voting phase. We have two new proposals to consider.

And it is looking good. So far we only voted in two, and they reached agreement. It might not look like a big deal but those two people in the past never could agree. So we might be near a consensus. Of course to find out who whose people are you will need to vote here.

http://vilfredo.org/viewquestion.php?q=145&room=Vilfredo

Cheers,

Pietro

[Pietro Speroni di Fenizio]

Dear All,

I hope you had a good Christmas.

The question on Anonimity has finally came to an end. And the result is:

Proposal Abstract

To get anonymity different actions should be done in different levels: server configuration, the actual software (Vilfredo) and the client-server connection (a user's choice).
Pseudonym is optional and no real data should be required to register.
Registration is mandatory in order to link data during iterations, also because it does not have real impact in anonymity (it does not revel who you are).
History of a registered users' activities and question/proposals could be stored or deleted based on a configuration parameter, just after it's not necessary to use it to make the system work during iterations.
Anonymity/Pseudonym should not change the way a user interact with the system (proposals, voting, ...).
Communications are delivered mainly by a private area, email is optional: encryption is possible to avoid leak in the inbox.

Since the proposal is complex and it covers different aspects, developers should give priority to single actions and define accordingly a schedule to work on.


PROPOSAL BODY

Anonymity (shortly, hide personal information so that you can't know who is the person) should be given thanks to:
0) server configuration and location: don't log ip and other data, server in a country with favourable laws
1) software: record actions (proposal, vote) and nothing else (ip, time, user-agent, page visited, connection time, last connection, etc..), data stored in a private dbms only for vilfredo
2) connection: choose https, behind a proxy or tor, hide the real ip (this is a user's choice)

Pseudonym (shortly, give a nickname so that you don't know the real name) is an option of the user, no personal information required to have an account.

All communications should be delivered in a private area, with the possibility to receive them by email. They could also be encrypted with asymmetric cryptography, especially if email is used (information could be stolen by inbox).

Registration is required and every user should have the same capabilities, regardless of his anonimity status. Registration is import to keep track of the user actions especially during iterations and if the user is a key player, but this is not creating real anonymity issues (especially if the communications are delivered in a private area).

History of a registered users' activities and question/proposals should be a configuration parameter, as it can weaken the anonymity of participants and track-record their opinions in different fields. It could also be a user choice (as long as it's not needed to make the system works properly, e.g.: after an interation, or a solution is found or a question is closed or before taking part to another question) to delete all links action-myusername, without changing the results of course: e.g. after participating in a question my actions (votes, comments and proposals) are completely anonymized and it's not possible to know even if I took part. This could also be strengthen giving the possibility to temporarily change the username in a particolar question, but history deletion is still important since internally data are probaly stored under the same username (just with different names to show).


What comes first and last is a developers' choice: here is a set of proposals in different fields to improve the handling of true anonymity (which is a very complex and serious task!) in Vilfredo, and it's clear that it's not easy or simple or fast to do. Other proposals have the same problem, and this is giving as much as possible a "global" goal to work on, not a step-by-step guide how to do it: this is what the project manager/developers will have to decide, based on time, experience, volunteers and other features in the roadmap.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Which we will define the guidelines for anonymity in the next versions. Also it is interesting that in the meantime as bitcoin exploded some new ways to have anonymity through cryptography might appear. Changing the game again :).

By the way, the new version of Vilfredo is proceeding well. I have seen some screenshot from Derek. And it should be much better from a user interface point of view. I hope to be able to invite you to try it out soon.

Have a good New Years Eve,

Pietro

[Giovani Spagnolo]

Pietro, Derek,

great news on next Vilfredo. If you want to share some mockups of the new UI for feedback, pls count on me.

cheers,

giovani

Inviato da iPad

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