--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAE8waWks-KEk1tdZsFzFdkCc_4jwbs-t1qB-zUjJufqt30r7zw%40mail.gmail.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfMxKBoqz8AtPfRqF%2BOJtQxaEbP9KFUnsdij15127NwupQ%40mail.gmail.com.
|
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAE8waWks-KEk1tdZsFzFdkCc_4jwbs-t1qB-zUjJufqt30r7zw%40mail.gmail.com.
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfMxKBoqz8AtPfRqF%2BOJtQxaEbP9KFUnsdij15127NwupQ%40mail.gmail.com.
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue+subscribe@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAN-CUEy0ghwPxP_B0LPw6e0FkD4O4ak064VPhWBQHyxsjpZNHQ%40mail.gmail.com.
More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAN-CUEy0ghwPxP_B0LPw6e0FkD4O4ak064VPhWBQHyxsjpZNHQ%40mail.gmail.com.
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAE8waWks-KEk1tdZsFzFdkCc_4jwbs-t1qB-zUjJufqt30r7zw%40mail.gmail.com.
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfMxKBoqz8AtPfRqF%2BOJtQxaEbP9KFUnsdij15127NwupQ%40mail.gmail.com.
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAN-CUEy0ghwPxP_B0LPw6e0FkD4O4ak064VPhWBQHyxsjpZNHQ%40mail.gmail.com.
--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Institute Of Information Management Professional Fellow, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador and Independent Information Management Practitioner.More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CABTLsgh74xwh%2BqXJApctcDtKuanYfFYxq2zwk72LQ1qs0R4WUg%40mail.gmail.com.
|
Chidi Opara,
In the national interest, do you and Oluwatoyin Adepoju have any concrete suggestions when it comes to finding solutions to the crisis of Islamophobia in Nigeria ?
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAE8waWks-KEk1tdZsFzFdkCc_4jwbs-t1qB-zUjJufqt30r7zw%40mail.gmail.com.
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfMxKBoqz8AtPfRqF%2BOJtQxaEbP9KFUnsdij15127NwupQ%40mail.gmail.com.
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAN-CUEy0ghwPxP_B0LPw6e0FkD4O4ak064VPhWBQHyxsjpZNHQ%40mail.gmail.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfMyEafgJHO4xaY2G64pdpt1Svx_wMCarYQGSVApGdrS8g%40mail.gmail.com.
|
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAN-CUExCp8NZN6PSrKU2oO%3DCFCbwTniRYfm0c8Vs7%2B2%2BTsFfOw%40mail.gmail.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfNHWcpA%2B%2Bfr-DYhf8EchoNF6qTy7y1ewNBjXhRKgezX_g%40mail.gmail.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAN-CUEyr2vGfN2Q2Ban8ABJUv8%3DjKtykTvmG9JrxcxqKZjM-Xg%40mail.gmail.com.
Just laying a few cards on the table:
Unfortunately for all of us, we don’t have to go too far in search of ample grounds for Islamophobia, all we have to do is take a cursory look at the daily reports of atrocities filed and archived here :
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
The evidence staring us in the face cannot be wished away, denied, or swept under the carpet, nor should we tolerate all the senseless, often politically motivated violence or hope to root out the violence without addressing the root causes such as poverty ( economic and social injustice etc) which the many many studies have pointed out are fertile breeding grounds for the recruitment of terrorists, armed ransom kidnappers, and bandits
Even then at the citizen street, church, mosque, and temple level, what’s needed on all sides is some basic tolerance. If that tolerance and understanding existed or was taught as part of our civic responsibility, then there wouldn't even have to be any need for a law that outlaws hate speech. And of course, hate speech would never be preached from the pulpits of those who feel that they are the better people, their God’s chosen people, ,their gentle Jesus people when in fact Jesus preached, “Love your enemies”. Hitler of course, wasn’t listening
According to Quran: 2: 62
“Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.”
We have been here with this topic so many times before and Bishop Krister Stendahl’s three rules continue to be relevant 👍
(1) When trying to understand another religion, you should ask the adherents of that religion and not its enemies.
(2) Don't compare your best to their worst.
(3) Leave room for “holy envy.”
The fact is that in the Nigerian context the Christian fundamentalists (the Bible-thumping Pentecostal Pastors and their flocks, the Catholics, the various other denominations, cults and sects, our local cyberspace interlocutors in this place, people like Vincent Adepoju, Chidi Opara and his mostly non-Muslim Igbo folks among whom there are those who seriously contend that “the Igbos are one of the lost tribes of Israel”( Bing) ” the Igbos, one of the lost tribes of Israel” (Google) and true too “proverbs are the palm-oil with which words are eaten” so in this case there must be a lot of truth in the saying “ blood’s thicker than mud” - we either believe that or we take it with a pinch of salt and if we believe what they believe then we are to assume by self-definition / self-identification, in the international arena they must believe themselves to be in a natural, conscious or unconscious tribal ( genetically transmitted) alliance with the forces at war against Hamas, and of course in the national arena,100% against Boko Haram and allies.
According to Quran 5:82
“Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.”
The main thing about Christian fundamentalism, and the root cause of their intolerance is that they believe themselves to have exclusive rights - in fact a monopoly on the means of salvation, all based on these two sentences of Acts 4:11-12 which they believe is the unadulterated word of God :
“Jesus is “ 'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone. ' Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
And as far as they are concerned those who don’t say “ the blood of Jesus “ are going to burn in the lake of fire, eternally
If you’re sick and tired of listening to that kind of jazz, for a change here’s some civilised discussion about some non-judgemental approaches to finding out who we really are :
Sam Harris with Swami Sarvapriyananda
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAE8waWks-KEk1tdZsFzFdkCc_4jwbs-t1qB-zUjJufqt30r7zw%40mail.gmail.com.
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfMxKBoqz8AtPfRqF%2BOJtQxaEbP9KFUnsdij15127NwupQ%40mail.gmail.com.
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAN-CUEy0ghwPxP_B0LPw6e0FkD4O4ak064VPhWBQHyxsjpZNHQ%40mail.gmail.com.
Smiles...wow, wow, wow!
From your last writing, you have practically given me reason to abandon this obviously unproductive conversation.
You have provided justification for me to believe that you never intended to gain any meaningful insights from this dialogue, especially with your parade of corrupted narratives and inaccurate historical representations above. At this juncture, I'd wish you seek your understanding from more reliable sources, not just regarding Islam but also concerning religion as a whole.
Stay well, Ọgá
'Wale
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfOFUj%3DaN3m%3DgxAN3tKd99hba6PzKjAYPQEBgVoFB7Mi2w%40mail.gmail.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAN-CUEwN17MzSWWOLOticyi6YYqiAfnY%2BhiXc-x5LJmpTbCEuQ%40mail.gmail.com.
Dear Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju,
I’m not about to take refuge in the Gestalt Prayer.
To put you in a lighter mood, here’s some Mandinka Muslim music from Bamako, Mali:
Salif Keita : Dery (live) Dery ( studio)
You may complain like Tevia here or on this first day of Pesach continue to be patient like Iyov /Job. Please do as you please. You may go on, continue like a God-forsaken kafir and feel free to blame it all on Islam , and before you do that please take note that just like any other scriptures, Islam’s scriptures are also open to translation and interpretations, especially in the dialogue between orthodoxy and what’s sometimes deemed a blasphemy and heresy .
How do you deal with the loose cannon/ lone ranger /group defence / explanation/ justification /self-justification that begins with “ God told me to” - do it ?
Always God, never the devil, except every once in a little while it’s The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, or The Devil and Miss Prym, or Netanyahu (the prince of holiness incarnate) and the IDF rabbis - and - as you know, in Nigeria it happens more than occasionally (more often than never) that a sweet Pentecostal sister knocks on your door and tells you that GOD sent her to you, for you to burst out in song, like Jon Hendricks, with I'll Bet You Thought I'd Never Find You , or Marvin Gaye with Heaven must have sent you from above , or better still “Have you ever been experienced?” (Jimi Hendrix with the question: Are you experienced ?
As a history student of the motivations and great battles of The Crusades and many other religious wars (make war, not love) how do you take on the task of apportioning blame? As you are well aware, the crusades are not all over, or yet over.
With what equilibrium and spirit of compassion do you read the genocidal passages in the Hebrew Bible?
What about “Gentle Jesus, meek and mild, look upon a little child, pity my simplicity, suffer me to come to thee.” - did he not say ( according to Matthew 10:34) “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword!”
If you should choose to continue this discussion, to begin with, just to clear the air, I’ll treat you to an interrogation of Christianity on terms very similar to those you want to use to crucify Islam, starting with a partial list of the Major philosophers before Jesus - and dispense with Jesus’s extraordinary merits which are beyond any controversy , merits such as his mother was a virgin, God was or is his father, and hence he is described by Christian scriptural authority as “ the only begotten son of the Father, begotten, not made “, his many miracles, turning water into wine, raising Lazarus from the dead , resurrecting from the crucifixion after spending three days in hell, ascending to heaven after 40 days, currently in Heaven, sitting at the right hand side of God and soon coming back to judge the living and the dead. I should hope that you and the lost tribes don't have any problem with any of that. I don’t have any problem with Christianity.
The way I see it: Insofar as this is not a one-to-one private discussion starring your sceptical, adversarial & Islamophobic self at loggerheads with Brother Wale Ghazal, I hope that you don’t see me as “butting in” and if you think so, if you think that freedom of speech is not an essential part of Human Rights in Islam, please disabuse yourself of such an idea, because Freedom to think and aql mentioned 77 times in the Quran ( Islam’s foundational scripture) is an essential part of Islam.
As to the required politeness required in civilised discussion / altercation,
Surah Al-'Ankabut Ayat 46 of the Quran states,
“ And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our Allah and your Allah is One, and unto Him we surrender.”
I don’t know if you belong to “The People of The Book” or not , but be that as it may, a Muslim is supposed to discuss in a fair manner; Islam exhorts Muslims to discuss and debate using beautiful speech which means that on all sides - you and yours too, we ought to strive to avoid vituperative language. So, when referring to The Holy Quran you jive,” I would be shocked if the Koran is as blameless as you describe it”, just in case you didn’t know , that kind of speech is not respectful or helpful. You want to blame the Quran? The Holy Quran is “ blameworthy” ? Expecting a life-saving miracle, you are of course free - if the law permits it - to stand outside the main mosque in Sokoto or Kano holding up a placard declaring such a sacrilege, thereby declaring your eagerness to join the ranks of Deborah Samuel Yakubu - and in addition to that, to spend the rest of eternity in Jahannam…
I should hope that you understand my intention is to contribute to this discussion as a fair play representative, not an “ embodiment” or personification of the Islam that we’re supposed to be discussing, the one and only Islam that there is - in the spirit of “For peace you will find Into the steeple of beautiful people, where there's only one kind”
Brother Wale Ghazal’s decision “ to abandon this obviously unproductive conversation” tallies with the exact wording of a critical piece in S. Parvez Manzoor’s blog Islam and Liberty ; I notice that the blog site has been removed, but the words I’m referring to are to be found in one of his numerous essays on Modernity , on the general theme “The Conflict Between the Transcendence Affirming and the Transcendence Negating World Views” , a review which begins with the impossibility of any further discussion with your very tall order, your improbable propositions, blunders and misrepresentations of history as per you inane question “ With reference to Muhammad why did he have to subjugate the people of Mecca to his new religion?”
Who told you that the people of Mecca were “ subjugated” to “ his religion”?
# Check this out : The people of Mecca accept Islam
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/08bcff9a-d530-48d2-a680-bc284756b7cbn%40googlegroups.com.
Take it all in and check it all out in the spirit that it’s part of the freedom of speech which we all claim to espouse. I’d hate to have to take you off your high horse.
As Hamlet said to the corpse of Polonius, ” I took thee for thy better “
There’s also the old Hungarian-Jewish Jewish proverb that goes, “Approach a goat from the back, a horse from the front, and a stupid person from no direction whatsoever “
You pose no such dilemma to me, and I’m not about to humour a cosmic scholar like you any further, neither do I seek to lighten your burden, such as your having to do some of your research in the dark, due to lack of electricity in your corner of darkness in Nigeria, and, Islamically speaking, nor should a scholar - any kind of scholar , including a so-called scholar of Islam be approached anally, in this instance with the exception of the one you chose to cite : Maxime Rodinson - and of course you have approached him , as he should be approached: anally. Great Congratulations !
The other that should be approached from the rear is Ignác Goldziher - I’m thoroughly acquainted with both him and Maxime Rodinson , through the machinations of those who wanted to turn me away from investigating Islam any further.
To tell you the truth, the topic doesn’t interest me that much. For all I care, all the Islamophobes can go and drown in the nearest creek and my only reaction would be good riddance !
The world would be a better place without them.
Adepoju: This is what’s required of you and it’s not just your cerebral head and the screws that might be missing in it that’s at stake : No more vile calumny directed at Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala’s most beloved Prophet of Islam - a mercy to the worlds !
Taking the matter at hand - the threat Islamophobia in your country Nigeria, seriously, I drew your attention to what the Quran says about the parameters of discussion, little realising you’d refer to that as a “digression” : Surah Al-'Ankabut Ayat 46 , that aql mentioned 77 times in the Quran (Islam’s foundational scripture) is an essential part of Islam, and of course my friend S. Parvez Manzoor who, post-Rodinson and post 911 etc has been writing very engagingly about the Islamophobia issue - whereas your one and only point ad nauseam is that “Islam is to blame” - for Islamophobia. And what pray is to blame for antisemitism? Racism? Colonialism? Crass stupidity? And who are you to dictate to me what I should and should not do so that you “dont expend energy” - a five minute read, much shorter than my patient wading through your usual very abstruse, mystical & cosmological gobbledegook which is always infinitely longer and always arrives at some cosmic or comic black hole or no point at all. Please feel free to dialogue with yourself : to monologue - write an article on the subject.
It’s known as a Parthian shot : My digression ended with these two sentences which you are either ignoring or the great pretender that you are, you are pretending that you didn’t read , since they address the core of your absurdities in this your discussion with Wale Gazal :
“ Who told you that the people of Mecca were “ subjugated” to “ his religion”?
Nota bene : There are some things that I’m not inclined to discuss with just anybody, especially not with a fellow ignoramus. My advice to you is to check your sources , so that you don’t go around quoting Miller : Jesus never existed - as an authority on the subject just because you found him in Wikipedia or because he has a couple of God-given PHds in the subject, although he never met Jesus in person. By contrast, The Prophet of Islam , sallallahu alaihi wa salaam, lived in the full glare of history , we even know what he had for breakfast.
You could start here : https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Shia+websites
My own immediate background: During my period 1971 - 1981 in Sweden, I knew little about Christianity ( never set foot in a church ) and knew absolutely nothing about Islam. 1981 -1984 in Nigeria, almost got drowned in the baptismal waters in Umuahia. 1984 -2024 have been made painfully aware of Islamophobia In Europe which I imagine is a little different from the home- grown variety in Nigeria where centuries old Islam and Muslims live in the same space and coexist in a symbiotic relationship with the other Nigerian people practising other religions and ways of life.
Vincent Adepoju:
That which you were taught at your school may be true, that there’s nothing new under the sun, however, the only thing new that I have learned from your 546 word response is, as you would say “encapsulated” in this your one-liner:
“That Islam was established in Mecca through conquest is a basic fact ive long known since secondary school studies in religious knowledge and nothing ive learnt after has contradicted that.”
This gives me some insight as to where you're coming from. Fortunately or unfortunately for me, unlike all the other schools in that country, the secondary school that I attended ( The Prince of Wales) did not teach or offer “religious knowledge” as a subject, and this means that our young minds were not poisoned at that tender, impressionable age - as yours obviously was - brain-washed, polluted with the vile Christian and colonial missionary propaganda that Islam was spread by the sword . And it’s only your miseducation that which you believed you learned by rote back then , that you regurgitate and vomit here, that “ Islam was spread by the sword “
As you have revealed, this was taught to you, not in the history classroom, but as “religious knowledge”. Of course you were not there when it supposedly happened , just as you were not there for the alleged virgin birth, the water into wine miracle , the raising of Lazarus from the dead, the crucifixion, the resurrection and the ascension to Heaven.
As Mr. Dylan asks and answers, “You ever seen a ghost? No, but you've heard of them”
You should ask the good people of Indonesia how Islam came to their shores .
Maxime Rodinson the Marxist - along with Karl himself, should resurrect and spend more time on that interrogation.
Secondly, elementary epistemology dear Watson, - philosophy course 1 : For you to claim that you “know” something , that thing must be true.
Sometimes, your impatience is akin to that miscreant who had the impertinence to request that Hillel the Elder teach him the Torah whilst he was standing on one foot, we are to suppose, so that he could slip having to listen to the long story of the forty-year trek through the wilderness and all the stopovers, and as you “ know” , anticlimactically, due to a temporary fit of impetuosity with Moses himself never arriving at the Promised Land and sometime after his passing on to the Hereafter, it is recorded in the 6th book of the Hebrew Bible that his chosen successor Joshua achieved the Conquest of Canaan.
As in the good old days of our oral tradition, I have the mic now, it’s me that’s talking, it’s not going to be and has never been a filibuster, so hold your peace , try to continue to exercise some some sabr - that’s virtuous, and thank God that you don’t need a translator - as I suppose you normally do when catching a glimpse of what the Quran means, ” the Glorious Qur'an, that inimitable symphony, the very sounds of which move men to tears and ecstasy.”
If only you would read this short article “The Sword of Islam” , you would need to read no further.
The message to you dear Adepoju is that you’ve got a lot to unlearn. I’m the messenger.
You could study the history of Mecca, if you have the time
Once again :
“ Who told you that the people of Mecca were “ subjugated” to “ his religion”?
# Check this out : The people of Mecca accept Islam
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/usaafricadialogue/Ni-FlOZJHlY/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/aec230a9-0fd9-47eb-905d-3e5cb9eacd0bn%40googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAFYPD-S%3D8FGcghUD-ThoJC2J2qZGqzjqUzW3NiO1MbnF19kxeg%40mail.gmail.com.
Vincent Adepoju:
All the mistakes are mine, and I'm not going to read this over.
You sometimes sound as if you’re talking to a fellow idiot. I know that you believe yourself to be greatly learned, but please try to be a little more humble. You want to teach me how to ask my question and how to answer yours. If you’re not careful I’ll send Hamza, my grandson's friend from Egypt to discuss this kind of matter with you. I discussed such matters with Alims ( scholars) at al-Azhar during my last six weeks in Cairo, sat humbly at their feet, in 1991 - and not once was I given the kind of jazz now coming from your rear - and mind you, to date, the humblest person/ human being I have ever met is Abu Al Wafa Al Taftazani - the professor of Islamic Philosophy at Cairo University and I came to that conclusion during and after an hour long audience with him in his office and was initiated into the Rifai Order at the Al-Rifa'i Mosque in Cairo, that same Thursday…The same Cairo University, where USA’s President Barack Hussein Obama kick-started the Arab Spring with the greeting, assalamu alaikum.
It’s exactly as Abraham Lincoln said, “You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time”
In some neck of the woods, the problem is that Niggaz are scared of Revolution, and it's exactly as The Last Poets put it : “When the revolution comes Some of us will probably catch it on TV with chicken hanging from our mouths”
There’s a moment in history - an extended moment, a movement, a wave, you may call it a revolution - like the Haitian Revolution, like the American Revolution, like the French Revolution, like the Russian Revolution, like the Chinese Communist Revolution, like the Algerian Revolution , like The Islamic Revolution in Iran, a brand otherwise known as the Iranian Revolution
What was achieved in Mecca and is still on-going, down through the ages may be referred to as an ideological conquest.
Instead of doing something else right now, I’m going to “expend” some energy and some of my precious time writing this, to whoever is going to read it, with the understanding that (1) I’m only exercising a little my freedom here, and (2) I’m not Abu Hurairah or a paid praise singer, composer, portrait painter or poet for hire…
So, what do you have to say about Ojogbon’s “ Let there be light !”?
Coming from Ojogbon, first and foremost one intuits intellectual illumination, nothing as mundane as the everyday necessities such as clean pipe-born water etc that seems to be so woefully lacking for everyone, where you are.
Shouldn’t you be more concerned about that, since it most directly affects you? Shouldn't we be more concerned about that than about “Exploring Every Corner of The Cosmos in Search of Knowledge” ? Yeah, begin by digging deep where you’re standing, and you might be lucky to find some oil or diamonds. Of course, Bobby D did moan ( I Shall Be Free No. 10)
“Well, I don’t know, but I’ve been told
The streets in heaven are lined with gold
I ask you how things could get much worse
If the Russians happen to get up there first…”
BTW; Re - Alexander Pope’s Epitaph for your man, Sir Isaac Newton, 1735:
“Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night:
God said, Let Newton be! and all was light.”
All was and is light except in the world’s second most religious country, Nigeria where you find many who are more Catholic than the Pope, more Muslims in Nigeria than in Saudi Arabia, and thanks to Al-Islam, there’s a lot of nur - the most essential kind of light there is
I understand that for you, on a daily basis - it has to be prophetic and that it must be difficult for you to predict the peripatetic, sometimes epileptic supply of the electric. I suppose that the safest kind of prophecy about the Naija electric , one that covers all future eventualities, is “encapsulated” in these four words : Never. Expect. Power. Always., during my time in Nigeria (1981 - 84) abbreviated as NEPA
I sympathise with you struggling to overcome some of the more than metaphorical darkness in Nigeria, and that we have to apply some reverse gear to the arrested development In your neck of the woods. Without modernity’s electric current, I wonder how AI is going to take over. Have your conversations with the trees thrown any futuristic light on this, or must we forever go on agonising about the current present and the past?
In the modern post- Kant, and post-Russell world (post the four horsemen Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Daniel Dennett etc) I suppose that this is the kind crap that should interest you :
What did Bertrand Russell Think About Buddhism and Christianity
More seriously :
Obdurate is the wrong word by which to describe you. As Lakunle the village school teacher put it to his Sidi, in Soyinka’s The Lion and the Jewel, “You are as stubborn as an illiterate goat.” Disabuse yourself of the idea that you are the lion or a lion - of the House of Judah or anywhere else, when you’re not even from Sierra Leone. The illiterate goat in question is the same goat referred to in that Hungarian-Jewish proverb, “Approach a goat from the back, a horse from the front, and a stupid person from no direction whatsoever”.
In case you don’t know it, abuse comes with the territory, in your case that of the arrogant interlocutor pursuing his mission with Gradgrindian grandeur or is it vigour - or is it rigour - talking down to his less intelligent earthlings. In his early days in his birthplace Mecca, in some quarters the Prophet of Islam sallallahu alaihi wa salaam - was the object of some abuse, and much ridicule, not least of all from Amr ibn Hisham ibn al-Mughira the so-called wisest man in Mecca at the time, and as the down-to-earth super-rationalist and sceptic that he was, responded thus to The Israʾ and Miʿraj : ”Muhammad , raise one leg, and now raise the other and keep both legs in the air - you see, you can’t, and yet you want us to believe that you could fly? ”
It was after that incident that he was given the nickname Abu Jahl ( “the father of ignorance”)
Jesus of Nazareth also suffered abuse - in his case and quite unlike the Prophet of Islam, who never claimed divinity, according to John 10:33, “ The Jews” picked up stones to stone him, saying “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
Then there’s all that nasty business of human sacrifice -this time it’s the theology of the cross -the kind of sacrifice that was thought to have been abolished by the event known as the Akedah
I wish that I had time for all the repetitive little tittle-tattle. What’s your point? You are sarcastic, ironic, iconoclastic and disrespectful towards Wale Gazal, who nevertheless - decent Muslim fellow that he is, takes it in his stride; you salute him as “the Islamic idealist” - as if he is divorced from reality and he is the one and only Muslim in the world who doesn’t know the meaning of the word “fitra” ! I suppose that your own version of idealism - not the Kantian version, of course not, is more along the lines of ahimsa - whilst you may be the vegetarian or Jain who disapproves of those who break eggs to make halal omelettes, or the kind of vegetarian who does not mind chopping off the heads of vegetables unlike e.g. deGrasse Tyson .
So how do you think that your universe came into existence ( another meaningless question?) According to the Quran, Allah ( God) said “ kun!” - and it was (just like Allah said “Let Newton be”, and always light ). According to our Hebrew scribes, the Almighty created everything through the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet ( if you believe that then Abraham Abulafia should interest you) for real Islamic cosmology you should listen to Seyyed Hossein Nasr - I once saluted him when he visited Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh in London) and according to some of your cosmic scientists, there was a big bang - violence on a cosmic scale - and you? A divine drop of semen, from your dad, I suppose, and you could please spare us the awesome rub-a-dub details about the virgin birth.
You’ve heard about the alleged rebellion in Heaven? Once upon a time, more violence up there. You’ve also heard about Cain, the Flood no doubt, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah ,by the hand of the Almighty, just as you must have heard about The Ten Plagues
Your main beef is that that history records an event that Muslims worldwide know as the conquest of Mecca and your problem seems to be your idea that the Prophet of Islam was a fallible human being made in the image and likeness of Oluwatotyin Vincent Adepoju, when nothing could be further from the truth. As far as Islamic matters are concerned the Prophet of Islam sallallahu alayhi wa salaam was and is MASOOM.
Infallibility is one of his qualities
Now, please try to either get that into your head.
And if you can’t at least try to wrap that around your head ( like a turban
Plenty of resources here : https://www.al-islam.org/
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/usaafricadialogue/Ni-FlOZJHlY/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfMDQcW76-XHf8Eoyvt3%2BS1kBe25Zf-SDchKav81q%2BUCLQ%40mail.gmail.com.
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAFYPD-RJON-Aqm8W1ujTOE81dyAseqvxSMfv6xaZ5nmMpYwBpg%40mail.gmail.com.
|
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAN-CUEx58QOMGa1C-sv_TD08pSt7DidKv1pNXXcDW9GF%2BTVE_w%40mail.gmail.com.
O Marvel! a garden amidst the flames.
My heart has become capable of every form:
it is a pasture for gazelles and a convent for Christian monks,
and a temple for idols and the pilgrim’s Kaa’ba,
and the tables of the Torah and the book of the Quran.
I follow the religion of Love: whatever way Love’s camels take,
that is my religion and my faith.
(From The Interpreter of Desires, quoted by Britishmisk in ''Reflections on Ibn Arabi'')
Wale,
Lets take your responses one by one.1. Can you provide references for this- ''the Prophet and his followers ... later returned to Mecca peacefully with an army of about 10,000 to prevent further hostilities.'' [ my emphasis]You are stating that he did not lay siege to Mecca as claimed by Maxine Rodinson in his biography of Muhammed but simply showed up at Mecca with a massive army purely for protection of himself and his followers and henceforth settled there peacefully, the Meccans eventually accepting his new religion to the point where it became dominant there?
I'm very interested in examining diverse views about this claim. Can you present authorities that reinforce your claim? I'm keen on reading them and establishing for myself as far as possible what really happened.Cornelius has not taken a stance as you have and has largely been providing links to searches, to the best of my knowledge, so please dont ask me to go to his posts for guidance.
2. Islam has been spread both peacefully and by the sword.
Is that true or not?
Were the Fulani jihad or the Moorish conquest of Spain peaceful?
3. Muhammed can be compared with other spiritual figures because they embody similar patterns of spiritual growth, a point demonstrated in such accounts of comparative religion as Maurice Bucke's Cosmic Consciousness.
The fundamental pattern is that of intense spiritual hunger, leading to prolonged spiritual seeking, and possibly, to insight.
Also Muhammed is one of various spiritual figures who claim prophetic authority, at times, a summative authority.
I gave examples of other modern figures who did same. Whatever we may think about the validity of their claims or that of Muhammed does not negate the fact that such claims recur in the religious life, even though not all such claimants have the same influence on humanity.
4. I never suggested that Muhammad's human limitations negate his spiritual authority. I stated that his human limitations and spiritual authority constitute his totality as a human being.
5. Beautifully put: ''Muslims believe in the Prophet's infallibility in conveying the divine message, not in his superhuman perfection.The Quran repeatedly affirms that Muhammad is a human being like others (18:110), and his humanity is seen as a testament to the power of divine guidance, not a weakness.''
We diverge in the belief in perfection in conveying a divine message. The factuality of the existence of the divine remains open to question, in the first place, in my view. The idea that the human mind can transmit in its pure form a message from such an exalted intelligence, if such exists, looks unrealistic to me. How would you respond to the Satanic Verses incident in relation to that subject, Muhammed later repudiating some verses which were once part of his revelatory corpus, describing them as coming from Satan, the incident that inspired Rushdie's Satanic Verses? ( Wikipedia has a rich discussion of the subject, engaging centuries of scholarship on it.)
Also, various scriptures exist claiming divine inspiration. How does one assess their relative factuality?
6. I never described Islam as inherently violent. I stated that Islam is both a religion of violence and of peace.
I described it as a religion of violence bcs it was established in Mecca through conquest. I also described Islam as a religion of violence because it has been significantly spread through violence.
I gave examples of the Fulani jihad and the Moorish conquest of Spain. I also referenced Nigeria's Ilorin.
These are among the most strategic military, political and cultural achievements in Islamic history.
Why do you insist on continuing to refer to them as fringe occurrences?
One should be able to find more if one puts in effort.
Islam is also a religion of peace because a significant number of Muslims have chosen to concentrate in what is referred to as the greater jihad, the jihad of self conquest in submission to Allah.One of such is my University of Benin teacher Abdul Rasheed Yesufu, about whom I have written a celebratory essay of some length.
Others are the Muslims of the SW, apart from the intolerance of Fulani jihad influenced Ilorin Islam, contrastive contexts I have currently referenced.
Others are represented by the great Ibn Arabi, celebrated for hisO Marvel! a garden amidst the flames.
My heart has become capable of every form:
it is a pasture for gazelles and a convent for Christian monks,
and a temple for idols and the pilgrim’s Kaa’ba,
and the tables of the Torah and the book of the Quran.
I follow the religion of Love: whatever way Love’s camels take,
that is my religion and my faith.(From The Interpreter of Desires, quoted by Britishmisk in ''Reflections on Ibn Arabi'')
Ibn Arabi is described by some as one of the greatest and most sophisticated of religious thinkers and his Futuhat al Makkiyah, The Meccan Illuminations, as his greatest and most sophisticated work. I provide a very brief critical response to Eric Winkel's translation of the awesome first chapter of that work in ''The Discovery, the Discoverer and the Discovered : The Beauty of Islamic Mysticism in Ibn Arabi's Futuhat al Makkiyah, The Meccan Illuminations''.
Also among my humble contributions to Islamic discourse is ''Islamic Mysticism and Ibn Arabi in Relation to the Convergence of Cognitive Domains'', my very short Amazon review of review of Islamic Mystical Poetry: Sufi Verse from the Early Mystics to Rumi.
My ''Hijab Aesthetics and Mysticism'', maps a magnificent panoply of hijabi from around the world, in a broad range of contexts, from actual women to artistic depictions, in relation to the quest for intimacy of being or of perception, with ultimate reality.
I have also invoked Islam inspired theoretical structures in relation to developing ideas on transdisciplinarity, as I do in Imaginative Matrices and the Multifarious Universe of Knowledge: The Toyin Falola Cosmos and the Inspiration of Iya Lekuleja, the Magical Herbalist in relation to Dihlīz threshold of Al-Ghazali and Ebrahim Moosa, Laura Marks' Enfolding-Unfolding Aesthetics derived from Islmic thought and Bavine Nasser on Islamic architecture.
I compiled the very short dialogue ''Mysticisms in Dialogue : Islamic, Christian and Buddhist Mysticism in Dialogue through Words and Images''.Among the more prominent Muslims in Nigeria are the Saraki family. My ongoing exploration of the beauty of Gbemi Saraki in terms of various aesthetic conceptions has so far been published as ''The Undeniable Allure of the Beautiful: The Beauty of Gbemi Saraki and the Challenges of Aesthetics'', Part 1(Blogger, Facebook), Part 2 ( Blogger, academia.edu, Facebook), Part 3 ( academia.edu). I even had a website for the project. I'm asking Wix, the hosting company, to let me know what has happened to the website.
I have also discussed Islamic theology in relation to Islamic terrorism in ''Rethinking and Representing Islamic Theology in an Age of Violent Islamic Extremism'' and ''Boko Haram: Part 2: The Religious Imperative''.In terms of spiritual practice, I have written about how I have adapted the Islamic call to prayer.
If I were a Muslim, I might not be seen as doing badly in terms of explorations of various contexts of the spiritual culture to which I subscribe.The range of ideas and references employed in my writings on Islam make it clear I am acquainted with sophisticated texts in the field. I chose to limit myself to Maxine Rodinson's biography of Muhammed and Wikipedia on how Mecca became Islmamic because I don't see this discussion as requiring anything more than such preliminary investigations. But since you insist otherwise, I would like to know your sources.
Great thankstoyin
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAN-CUEx58QOMGa1C-sv_TD08pSt7DidKv1pNXXcDW9GF%2BTVE_w%40mail.gmail.com.
My heart has become capable of every form:
it is a pasture for gazelles and a convent for Christian monks,
and a temple for idols and the pilgrim’s Kaa’ba,
and the tables of the Torah and the book of the Quran.
I follow the religion of Love: whatever way Love’s camels take,
that is my religion and my faith.
(From The Interpreter of Desires, quoted by Britishmisk in ''Reflections on Ibn Arabi'')
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAN-CUEx58QOMGa1C-sv_TD08pSt7DidKv1pNXXcDW9GF%2BTVE_w%40mail.gmail.com.
The opening sentences below insult a fellow human being and it is inappropriate.
Error! Filename not specified.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/d273edbd-26c5-4b03-bc7e-161d96112caan%40googlegroups.com.
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to
Always God, never the devil, except every once in a little while it’s The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, or
As a history student of the motivations and great battles of
Chidi Opara,
May the Almighty save us all, from contempt.
I am quite capable of ignoring you and Adepoju,
you know. But what is thesis, without antithesis?
What is a female, without a male? Male+female=
spontaneous combustion= synthesis.
That's Poetry.
This idiot (Cornelius Ignoramus)
cut his teeth at a Literary and Debating Society
which does not absolve the likes of Al Ghazali
entitling his booky booky booky booky
“The Incoherence of the Philosophers”
BTW, I don’t like telling people what to do.
So, in lower six I turned in my prefect’s badge
after a week. As you may also know, common
knowledge is not so common,therefore the links
And, NB: much of what I read (Bible, Sam Harris etc) disagrees with me,
so how can you say, “It appears that Mazi Cornelius hates being disagreed with.”`?
Is that just another of your “ Thought for Today”?
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to
--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Institute Of Information Management Professional Fellow, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador and Independent Information Management Practitioner.More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CABTLsgj8BdwLXtwuD%2BnwjrtQvobqzKbXNvUF73%2BXeTkEwMmLwA%40mail.gmail.com.
Hopefully, today’s Panel Discussion on Islam in Africa will at least partly address the issue of Islamophobia…
Discussing with someone who doesn’t know, is not the same as discussing with someone who knows. With the former, one has to resist the urge to teach (therefore the links / or footnotes) with the latter, it's always a pleasure to learn something.( We will be missing some of the intellectual discussions that Kenneth loved engineering between himself and Moses (Ochonu) in which it was always instructive and more enjoyable as an observer of a game of tennis, than as a participant)
When Adepoju mentions the likes of Dion Fortune, I often pray, may the Almighty save us all from contempt. Of course, when it comes to what may be regarded as a “Jewish perspective” I hold Bernard Lewis in high esteem, compared to some of the others, just as with regard to anti-imperialism I hold Bernard Porter in high regard and I’m always inclined to listen to him ( although when it comes to the the rise and decline of the British Empire, Africa is not his forte)
Over many years, I studied the history of Islam in the Middle East, North Africa, the Indian subcontinent, Iran, Afghanistan etc ( but not Africa south of the Sahara, including Sudan) so I know, I think I know, all about it. I had washed my hands off any further discussion of this matter of how Islam was finally established in the Hijaz, and I was sitting peacefully and peaceably in my corner in Stockholm, when my name surfaced in this discussion again: “Cornelius has not taken a stance as you have and has largely been providing links to searches, to the best of my knowledge, so please dont ask me to go to his posts for guidance.” ( That was my learned friend Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju speaking )
The reputation of Allah’s most beloved is being tarnished and “Cornelius has not taken a stance” ?
Peacefully, I could have continued to ignore Adepoju, but I have to clear my name, satisfy my conscience, and when it comes to defending the honour of Rasulullah, on Judgement Day, let it not be said that I just sat there listening to all kinds of nonsense being said about him, and did not come to his defence. His enemies will always argue, that I don’t have to do anything ,that the Almighty Himself is capable of defending His Prophet, speak less of His only begotten son at Calvary, His 1st and 2nd temples in Jerusalem, and his only chosen people, during the Holocaust.
So let's be clear. Let’s begin here :
It’s a milestone peace treaty that’s still often mentioned in diplomatic parlance and commentary when it comes to the Middle East politics of war and peace. Also often mentioned as a hopeful pointer/ harbinger of peaceful relations is the seminal democratic achievement that preceded it, namely The Charter of Medina, the constitution of history’s first Islamic state in this world, with the Prophet of Islam - peace be upon him , as its leader.
If we really want to talk about contradiction/s then let's be reasonable and try this for size.
Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju wasn’t there to personally witness or supervise the epic achievement being referred to as ”The Conquest of Makkah” - this link reviews Rodinson’s and Irving’s assessments of the event). Adepoju wasn’t there to personally witness, examine or verify the immaculate conception, the virgin birth, the feeding of the 5,000 people with five loaves of bread and two fishes, the alleged crucifixion, resurrection and ascension either, but what happened in Mecca is as clear as daylight., even if Adepoju is suffering from denialism.
Adepoju's main beef and bone of contention : He seems to think that peace be upon him, Prophet Muhammad returns to Mecca guns blazing like those of the IDF or is maybe unconsciously comparing what happened at Mecca with the siege of Gaza the past seventeen (17) years…
One gets the uncanny impression that Adepoju would have much preferred that the Prophet of Islam sallallahu alaihi wa salaam, had been someone like Mother Teresa - sweet & gentle soul, make no war, and make no love either, just practising charity and the art of gentle missionary persuasion in Calcutta…
On the surface, “conquest” is quite a misleading word here, as it surely implies to á lurid, already Islamophobic imagination, nothing less than a bloody, fratricidal battle - when it absolutely wasn’t anything like that - when in fact it was much less bloody than the contemporary reports that Adepoju is used to reading about as a “ bloodless coup”
At base here’s Shakespeare's Coriolanus remonstrating at his point of exile:
“Have the power still
To banish your defenders; till at length
Your ignorance, which finds not till it feels,
Making not reservation of yourselves,
Still your own foes, deliver you as most
Abated captives to some nation
That won you without blows!”
The difference between Coriolanus there and The Prophet of Islam is that The Prophet of Islam returns in triumph, acceptance and success, whilst Coriolanus dispatches himself to self-exile and an ignominious death due to an excess of pride…and ,honour yes, but pride -and excess of it known as kibr, has not place in Islamic ethics as I found out for the very first time, when I read Leopold Weiss’s The Road to Mecca - and not surprisingly, Leopold Weiss became Muhammad Asad and even translated the Quran …
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to
--
Chidi Anthony Opara is a Poet, Institute Of Information Management Professional Fellow, MIT Chief Data Officer Ambassador and Independent Information Management Practitioner.More about him here: https://independent.academia.edu/ChidiAnthonyOpara
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CABTLsgj8BdwLXtwuD%2BnwjrtQvobqzKbXNvUF73%2BXeTkEwMmLwA%40mail.gmail.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/ae8abf3a-2d94-40c5-ab7c-5f4d80c3f925n%40googlegroups.com.
Both here and in the Hereafter, may we be on God’s side.
Did you hear what Mustapha Abdul-Hamid of Ghana said about Sierra Leone, in this evening's enlightening Panel Discussion on Islam in Africa ?
So you see, unlike your progressive poetic peoples party at the Owerri Motor Park, we the Saro people are not “one of the lost tribes of Israel '' nor do we suffer from any kind of religious bigotry.
If you see less of me in this kind of discussion it’s because of “(3) Avoid lies, backbiting, abusing and finding fault with other people and indulging in needless things and useless talk.”
Normally, this should not cause any offence or ruffle any feathers but for the fact that we are all biased and (of course) some people who are more biased than others don’t like this, especially some of the little people who, either shuffering from delusions of grandeur ( self-aggrandisement) or from the other side of the coin ( inferiority or superiority complex) seriously believe that they are greater, braver, more pious, more holy (the holier-than-thou type) more educated, because know a little Latin, Greek, Big English, speak the language of the trees etc…
The subject at hand, the Mecca matter is covered here and we could take some time to check it out before rushing to press the reply button:
# Understanding The Conquest Of Makkah
I take it for granted that you are familiar with the story of Korach's rebellion against Moses and the due punishment that the miscreants received
In this our real world - not the world of imaginary idealism there’s a judicious blend of divine morality in the service of realpolitik and justice considerations to be found under the heading Islam and realpolitik as a result of which we have George Bernard Shaw sounding off on Islam’s Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him : What George Bernard Shaw said about Prophet Muhammad :
“ I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capability to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. [1] The world must doubtless attach high value to the predictions of great men like me. I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today. The medieval ecclesiastics, either through ignorance or bigotry, painted Muhammadanism in the darkest colours. They were in fact trained both to hate the man Muhammad and his religion. To them Muhammad was Anti-Christ. I have studied him — the wonderful man, and in my opinion far from being an Anti-Christ he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much-needed peace and happiness. But to proceed, it was in the 19th century that honest thinkers like Carlyle, Goethe and Gibbon perceived intrinsic worth in the religion of Muhammad, and thus there was some change for the better in the European attitude towards Islam. [2] But the Europe of the present century is far advanced. It is beginning to be enamoured of the creed of Muhammad.”
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/usaafricadialogue/Ni-FlOZJHlY/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CABTLsgiS79uwU6Yq8hFD%3DT9DeRo5_yXyERnLZLix5NCZ353zfw%40mail.gmail.com.
Oluwatoyin:
I have nothing to add to what I've already said.
My own patience has reasonable limits and that’s why I do not intend to indulge you any further. I have other matters to attend to, other -for me - more meaningful matters to attend to, such as to finish reading J.M.Coetzee’s The Pole and Other Stories. I also need to meditate circa four hours a day.
With all due respect, I think that you had better continue the discussion with people who are better equipped mentally, to continue with an intelligent discussion along whatever trajectory you may propose, may satisfy you. The Islamic links that I have forwarded so far, should be sufficient. Even if you had the light and the inclination, I doubt that you could possibly cover my reading list in the time you have available, so that’s a non-starter. When I met Abu Wafa ( in 1991) his first question was about distinguishing Shia from Sunni - before meeting him, I had gathered that he had marked Shia leanings / tendencies ( I wasn’t too humble, and I was being myself when I told him no worries, I know all about it and thanked God that we didn’t have to get bogged down in that kind of interminable tittle-tattle - so we proceeded to more germane matters . Incidentally that 1756 debate convened by Nader Shah in Baghdad - I think that I could have done better - and believe it or not it was the Shia representative’s opening remarks in that debate “Ali is to me as as Harun was to Musa” that led me to read the Torah more than twenty-five times - with commentaries etc and a lot of other communications, consultations, discussions that I can’t share with you and that you won’t find on the internet or at the synagogue library - to fully understand the relationship between Moses and Aaron. I suppose that you would like to indulge me in a debate about that too, with links not from Najaf but from Al-Qaeda. Then it would be a case of mistaken identity and if you were speaking Swedish, you would definitely be talking to the wrong neger.
What did Paul say in 1 Corinthians 13:11?
By all means go ahead with your discussion and hopefully it will make a difference without me in the way..
Other things to do : https://www.facebook.com/reel/2042929202745090
I was of course joking when I said that “ I suppose that you would like to indulge me in a debate about that too, with links not from Najaf but from Al-Qaeda.”
A major correction : In 1743, Nader Shah in an attempt to unify the convened a debate between Sunni and Shiʿi clerics in the city of Najaf, in Iraq. Abdullah b. Husayn al-Suwaydi, a Baghdadi cleric who attended the debate as a representative of the Ottoman governor of Iraq, documented the details of this dialogue in a treatise “On the Unity of Islamic Theological Schools.” A verbatim transcript of the debate ( translated into English) is available as '' Documents of the Right Word.”
As one of my Professors from Najaf told me , “ Shah Nader was an evil man .”
Infinitely more pleasant : Mozart - Piano Concerto No. 27 in B-flat major, K. 595 (Mitsuko Uchida)
Adepoju :
The beginning of wisdom is fear of Hashem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjC7akZA180
Earlier on, just before the Akedah, I prayed this ritual prayer to He who hears prayer:
“May it be Your will, Hashem my God and the God of my forefathers, that You save us today and every day from those who are arrogant and from arrogance itself, from an evil man, from an evil companion, from an evil neighbour, from an evil mishap, from the destructive spiritual impediment Satan, from a harsh trial and from a harsh opponent, whether he is a member of the covenant or whether he is not a member of the covenant.”
I'm from the oral tradition; I prefer to talk on the phone.
I don’t know about you, but I have a wife, two daughters, a son, and three grandsons to consider and no time for delusions of grandeur with the idea that it’s part of you cultivating your public image in your duckpond or secular empire where a nondescript charlatan and coward can imagine that he can judge the Prophet of Islam, can judge Ali, the Lion of Allah and that when Cornelius says that he has chosen not to discuss such a matter any further, the human charlatan wants to ridicule him. Please feel free to go ahead. As Allah’s weakest slave, I do not feel challenged by you in any way - be it IFA-spiritual, Edo-cultural, Naija oil boom financial ( Allah is the rich and we are the poor), Big-Grammar 419-IQ intellectual, Duke Ellington musical, or anything else that’s in your upper mind. I don’t think that I am a worthy opponent for you to even waste any spittle on, so please go ahead with what you imagine to be metaphysical discourses about the Prophet of Islam’s military expedition and the Islamization of the Hijaz - or earlier on Moses's successor Joshua’s military incursions, and subjugation and Judaization of the lands that previously belonged to the Seven Canaanite nations.
Whilst your focus is on the Prophet of Islam’s so called conquest or restoration of Mecca and the Kaaba said to have been constructed by Abraham - to its original religion of Islam ( submission to Allah) - in my view a natural phenomenon and a historical fulfilment of prophecy - unlike you, I am less interested in the history of Mecca and of course more interested in the history of Jerusalem and its significance to the Jewish People.
in case you haven’t read it I recommend pages 70 -71 of Bernard Lewis : The Jews of Islam - an anecdote “ told by the great ninth -century historian Tabari, describing a visit by the Caliph Umar to the newly conquered city of Jerusalem” , which I talked about here - another link ( I’m busy with writing something much more spectacular - not erudite - and don’t have the time or the means to share Bernard Lewis otherwise - and by the way, the Judaica section of my personal library, what I refer to as my “holy of holies”, if you ever come to Stockholm where there is always light - (maybe to receive the Nobel Peace Prize?) I’ll show it to you and there too - a book, whatever volume of Torah , Talmud ,Quran cannot be judged by merely looking at its cover…
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/3d31ef9d-da4c-467e-ace9-694ce1756cb2n%40googlegroups.com.
Correction: Should read, “if you ever come to Stockholm where there is always light - (maybe after you receive the Nobel Peace Prize - in Oslo )...
Tomorrow is the last day of Pesach ( the Jewish Passover) and this suggests that once that’s over it could be business as usual in Gaza.
I imagine that in his dream of additional grandeur as a future President of Greater Nigeria, the Great Adepoju would either be staying neutral or - as the warrior scholar king would be leading by example, by sending an expeditionary force - brave man - with himself as commander-in-chief, to supplement the Hamas Resistance Forces with some of his awesome, anti-missionary and anti-imperialism Blackmagic