Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - AFRICA IN 2063 by Professor Lumumba

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.e...@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - AFRICA IN 2063 by Professor Lumumba - SHARING

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OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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May 4, 2020, 4:34:39 PM5/4/20

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I wish it were that simple. Its nothing to do with imperialists but different cultural interests which cannot be decreed out of existence by Pan Africanism ( whatever that means) in the different cultural positions.

China had existed as a unified polity f( one language one culture) for thousands of years before Mao came on the scene. In the African setting the thousands of years journey will now just begin with not a lot guaranteed and is it really necessary. Africans can have access to markets in the different regions as things are now without the set backs of the fractious struggles in a unified state.

OAA

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From: 'Julius Eto' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

Date: 04/05/2020 16:45 (GMT+00:00)

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Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - AFRICA IN 2063 by Professor Lumumba- SHARING

Dear OAA.
Agreed that some centrifugal forces need to be addressed but they should not stop the unification-for-strenght-and-security movement in our collective interest. A journey of a thousand mile starts with a step. Even China experienced this before it was formed after its powerful warlords and former regions were pacified under Mao.

Africa does not need a uniform religion or any other ideology (apart from Pan-Africanism) to become one country. The roles of Confucianism and common language in China's rise are acknowledged but exaggerated. Mao's genuine pro-people agrarian communism united the masses behind him.

Once African leaders greenlight a unification deal and agree to enthrone good governance by upholding transparency, justice and equity, centrifugal forces (intellectuals, journalists, politicians, security agencies etc) propped up by imperialists (the West, Russia, China, Arabs etc) would be kept at bay.

On Monday, May 4, 2020, 02:08:22 PM GMT+1, OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com> wrote:

As we can see there is an incongruous comparison with China to project a Congo- centric template of African development. That is the key problem of a prospective African Union similar to a situation which the British fought against at the beginning and
throughout its stay in the EU: the EU should not be Germo- centric or Franco-centric among the big nation states iof Europe.

As Patrick Lumumba is projecting a Congo- centric vision of Africa Union so is Sanusi Lamido projecting an articulate Nigeo- centric vision of African Union. This is inevitable given a playing arena full of powerful multifarious ethno- nation states.
This is where comparison with the large market space is disingenious.

China is a large nation state of ONE ethno- national composition whose fortunes cannot be projected onto multi- ethnic polities artificially yoked together into a Union with centrifugal aspirations reflected in the Lumumbo- Congolese view versus the Sanuso-
Nigerian view yoked to a Zikist- Nigerian view to the rump of an Nkruma- centric view. The incipient fault lines are already visible: there is no single, trans- African, central 'Confucionist' view harmonizing the whole of Africa as Confucius is in China.
This is the problem of a Chinese template projected onto an African Union.

This problem of 'a Union in whose image' needs to be resolved first before the Union can take off powered by that single minded image as happened in the case of the Chinese.

The alternative come 2063 may be similar to the Nigerian experiment in which people spend sixty years abusing and insulting each other and the union being declared the world headquarters of poverty for the common folks because the union has not benefitted
the common folks as it did the elites. Remember Obasanjo's marching orders to Buhari in 2015: under no condition must he allow the country to disintegrate under his watch; a nation being forcibly yoked together until it evolves- no matter how long or bitter-
a unifying ethos.

To conclude the geo- politico-cultural situations in China and Africa do not match and correlation of size and success is therefore not guaranteed. This looming cultural contradictions need to be considered in deciding to forge an African Union before,
in the words of Christopher Okigbo ( reflecting poetically on a similar Nigerian oddity) ' our dividing airs are gathered home.'

OAA

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Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - AFRICA IN 2063 by Professor Lumumba - SHARING

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Lumumba cautions Africans against activities of Chinese in Africa and highlights the visions of a United Africa.

https://youtu.be/6tR1f1K3QhQ

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Harrow, Kenneth

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May 4, 2020, 5:07:34 PM5/4/20

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dear oaa, your postings are often engaging and interesting.

so, if you permit, i'd be more cautious about very broad claims. youwrite,

"China had existed as a unified polity f( one language one culture) for thousands of years before Mao came on the scene."

i am not a chinese scholar, but i am pretty sure that statement is pretty inaccurate.

perhaps you can make your claim about africa by modifying that statement about china.

best

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com>
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Gloria Emeagwali

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May 4, 2020, 5:48:08 PM5/4/20

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I also thought the statement was rather sweeping.

Egypt unified around 3000BCE but China did so 221BC, under Emperor Qin Shi Huangdi ie 2020 plus 221 years ago. I have also discovered that there were several parallel dynasties, and a few others that were not recognized by some parties, so the unification was not as clear cut as some of the text books tend to suggest.

Shi Huangdi’ s dream occasionally went up in smoke.

The Shang and Zhou dynasties never controlled all of China and there was a North / South divide in some periods.

That’s just for the record.

On a related note, Jean-Claude Trichet, formerly of the European Central Bank, expressed interest in a European political confederation beyond the existing arrangement, in a debate on France 24,

earlier today.

There are a lot of potential models out there.Finding the appropriate, workable one is key.

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Harrow, Kenneth

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May 4, 2020, 6:10:54 PM5/4/20

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gloria, how many different "peoples," different regions with semi-autonomy (in the past), and most of all, how many languages, do we find, and did we find, in china? nothing like one regime and one country, one nation, one people, right? mr. google says 56 different ethnic groups; 297 languages. not one country united in any real sense, probably ever, and barely even now.

whereas in nigeria has 520 languages, and lots of ethnic groups. is that really relevent, either?

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

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Julius Eto

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May 5, 2020, 10:52:36 AM5/5/20

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My brother Agbetuyi,

You said: "Its nothing to do with imperialists but different cultural interests which cannot be decreed out of existence by Pan Africanism ( whatever that means) in the different cultural positions."

I agree with you that "different cultural interests...cannot be decreed out of existence" but disagree that it has nothing to do with imperialists. When the West, Russia, China, Arabs, India etc feverishly provide grants to some centrifugal forces in Africa (intellectuals, journalists, politicians, security agencies etc) to write and work against Pan-Africanism and its advocates, it's a form of imperialism at work, with an air of cloak-and-dagger to it.

Most of the cold and calculating sponsors, who have been exposed as seeking Africa's depopulation and even extinction of the black race to hijack our land and resources, would jump at your submission that "Africans can have access to markets in the different regions as things are now without the set backs of the fractious struggles in a unified state."

However, Dear OAA, I am not insinuating that you are sponsored or an imperialist agent.

On your fears about "the fractious struggles in a unified state," I said: "Agreed that some centrifugal forces need to be addressed but they should not stop the unification-for-strenght-and-security movement in our collective interest...Once African leaders greenlight a unification deal and agree to enthrone good governance by upholding transparency, justice and equity, centrifugal forces (intellectuals, journalists, politicians, security agencies etc) propped up by imperialists (the West, Russia, China, Arabs etc) would be kept at bay."

On Monday, May 4, 2020, 11:10:56 PM GMT+1, Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu> wrote:

gloria, how many different "peoples," different regions with semi-autonomy (in the past), and most of all, how many languages, do we find, and did we find, in china? nothing like one regime and one country, one nation, one people, right? mr. google says 56
different ethnic groups; 297 languages. not one country united in any real sense, probably ever, and barely even now.

whereas in nigeria has 520 languages, and lots of ethnic groups. is that really relevent, either?

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/DM5PR12MB245616354C11431717EB196FDAA60%40DM5PR12MB2456.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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May 5, 2020, 12:19:26 PM5/5/20

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My brother Julius Eto:

We must not elevate racism to an art.

Some so- called imperialists have the interests of Africans than fellow Africans. Each nation will decide where its interests lie relative to fellow Africans and international interests. The real reason Africans want African Union urgently now is because of the example of the European Union. Not all Europeans are in the EU ( Sweden is not.) Africans should have similar choices

Strengthening the OAU and not foreclosing each member nation's choices will mean when things go wrong the whole continent will not get it wrong. If some get it wrong there will be room for re-alignment and others can bail them out.

If the OAU decides to go for a union I hope we will meet in our tenth incarnation a thousand years later ( assuming advances in medical science allow us to live 100 years per incarnation) to compare notes in our common language and culture and decide whether its all worth it and proceed to our own Maoist stage.

OAA

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From: 'Julius Eto' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

Date: 05/05/2020 16:03 (GMT+00:00)

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Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - AFRICA IN 2063 by ProfessorLumumba- SHARING

My brother Agbetuyi,

You said: "Its nothing to do with imperialists but different cultural interests which cannot be decreed out of existence by Pan Africanism ( whatever that means) in the different cultural positions."

I agree with you that "different cultural interests...cannot be decreed out of existence" but disagree that it has nothing to do with imperialists. When the West, Russia, China, Arabs, India etc feverishly provide grants to some centrifugal forces in Africa (intellectuals, journalists, politicians, security agencies etc) to write and work against Pan-Africanism and its advocates, it's a form of imperialism at work, with an air of cloak-and-dagger to it.

Most of the cold and calculating sponsors, who have been exposed as seeking Africa's depopulation and even extinction of the black race to hijack our land and resources, would jump at your submission that "Africans can have access to markets in the different regions as things are now without the set backs of the fractious struggles in a unified state."

However, Dear OAA, I am not insinuating that you are sponsored or an imperialist agent.

On your fears about "the fractious struggles in a unified state," I said: "Agreed that some centrifugal forces need to be addressed but they should not stop the unification-for-strenght-and-security movement in our collective interest...Once African leaders greenlight a unification deal and agree to enthrone good governance by upholding transparency, justice and equity, centrifugal forces (intellectuals, journalists, politicians, security agencies etc) propped up by imperialists (the West, Russia, China, Arabs etc) would be kept at bay."

On Monday, May 4, 2020, 11:10:56 PM GMT+1, Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu> wrote:

gloria, how many different "peoples," different regions with semi-autonomy (in the past), and most of all, how many languages, do we find, and did we find, in china? nothing like one regime and one country, one nation, one people, right? mr. google says 56
different ethnic groups; 297 languages. not one country united in any real sense, probably ever, and barely even now.

whereas in nigeria has 520 languages, and lots of ethnic groups. is that really relevent, either?

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/DM5PR12MB245616354C11431717EB196FDAA60%40DM5PR12MB2456.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

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Julius Eto

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May 5, 2020, 1:05:59 PM5/5/20

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Hmmmm OAA!

I am not a racist and Pan-Africanism is not racism but a drive for rapid development and collective security in a world where the current global powers are sharks or lions with insatiable greed, baying for Africa's blood.

I agree with you that there should be a window or room to get out of any union. I also agree that some selfish Africans do not have the interest of the continent and race at heart but they should be shamed by pursuing what's good for all and not abandoning it. I don't agree that "some so-called imperialists have the interests of Africans than fellow Africans" because they are self-interested pretenders.

However, i don't understand what you mean by "proceed to our own Maoist stage."

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Dompere, Kofi Kissi

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May 5, 2020, 4:05:46 PM5/5/20

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Greetings ALL,

With respect to this topic, I wish to make familiar these my works

African Union: Pan African Analytical Foundations: Dompere, Kofi Kissi Theory of Philosophical Consciencism: Dompere, Kofi Kissi The Theory of Categorial Conversion : Rational Foundations of Nkrumaism in Socio-natural ...

The African Union as reflected in the THEORY OF REGINAL GROUPING must be understood to solve some problems of the AFRICAN nations and their relationships

to the rest of the world. These problems must be understood and critically discussed. My lecture on Sino-African relation, delivered at the conference in Ghana is also important to the topic . I will share it with anyone interested. Again my work on THE THEORY OF IMPIRIRIAL INCOMBANCY ,COMPETITIVE FRINGE AND NEOCOLONIAL STATES will be useful. Finally I must say everybody interested in AFRICA’S PAST-PRESENT-FUTURE (SANKOFA) TIME TRINITY must read NKRUMAH’S books of AFRICAN

Unity and CONSCIENCISM.

Stay strong and safe.

DOMPERE.

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OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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May 5, 2020, 4:06:05 PM5/5/20

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By Maoist stage I was referring to your suggestion if Mao disarming the warlords. I am saying after we forge a unified culture and single language ( which would involve a fractious struggle lasting hundreds of years as in the Chinese example, we then disarm the few surviving warlords as Mao did then take stock on how long it took us.

One way or another we will have to deal with super power lions and sharks whether through OAU or African Union. OAU helps most African countries to keep their options open whereas if the leadership of the Union is hijacked as the American Right did through Trump the whole of the continent may be doomed.

OAA

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-------- Original message --------

From: 'Julius Eto' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

Date: 05/05/2020 18:19 (GMT+00:00)

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - AFRICA IN 2063 by ProfessorLumumba- SHARING

Hmmmm OAA!

I am not a racist and Pan-Africanism is not racism but a drive for rapid development and collective security in a world where the current global powers are sharks or lions with insatiable greed, baying for Africa's blood.

I agree with you that there should be a window or room to get out of any union. I also agree that some selfish Africans do not have the interest of the continent and race at heart but they should be shamed by pursuing what's good for all and not abandoning it. I don't agree that "some so-called imperialists have the interests of Africans than fellow Africans" because they are self-interested pretenders.

However, i don't understand what you mean by "proceed to our own Maoist stage."

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OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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May 6, 2020, 7:30:03 PM5/6/20

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Ken & GE:

Majority of China speak Chinese. I have taught history of China for several years. May be what people say are 297 languages are dialects. I have also taught Japanese history and I know Japanese is a breakaway dialect of mainland China which evolved in a different line. So is a host of other East Asia languages. The similarity in the script is the give away.

To some people outside Yoruba land Ìkálę Yoruba and Okitipupa languages are not Yoruba dialects but different languages regarding intelligibility but the Yoruba know them as dialects of Yoruba language and they see themselves as Yoruba.

OAA

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-------- Original message --------

From: "Harrow, Kenneth" <har...@msu.edu>

Date: 04/05/2020 23:22 (GMT+00:00)

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - AFRICA IN 2063 by ProfessorLumumba- SHARING

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gloria, how many different "peoples," different regions with semi-autonomy (in the past), and most of all, how many languages, do we find, and did we find, in china? nothing like one regime and one country, one nation, one people, right? mr. google says 56 different ethnic groups; 297 languages. not one country united in any real sense, probably ever, and barely even now.

whereas in nigeria has 520 languages, and lots of ethnic groups. is that really relevent, either?

ken

kenneth harrow

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Harrow, Kenneth

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May 6, 2020, 9:12:41 PM5/6/20

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dear oaa, isn't chinese divided into many variants/dialects? mandarin, cantonese? aren't there many others?

ken

kenneth harrow

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Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 6:18 PM

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OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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May 7, 2020, 4:29:05 AM5/7/20

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Absolutely! Thats exactly my point. Yoruba language dialects are not normally considered diifferent languages from Yoruba .

Although I am not Ijebu and do not speak the dialect I can understands Ijebu speakers very well unlike say Igbo or Asante

For the Chinese Mandarin is the official orthographical dialect (which few people speak, which is like Oyo dialect in Yoruba, which I speak and write) but the other Chinese dialects will be mutually fairly intelligible.

OAA

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-------- Original message --------

From: "Harrow, Kenneth" <har...@msu.edu>

Date: 07/05/2020 03:34 (GMT+00:00)

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - AFRICA IN 2063 by ProfessorLumumba- SHARING

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dear oaa, isn't chinese divided into many variants/dialects? mandarin, cantonese? aren't there many others?

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

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Harrow, Kenneth

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May 7, 2020, 9:37:26 AM5/7/20

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interesting

ken

kenneth harrow

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