Re – The on-going discussion in "Chielozona Eze Misinterprets

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Cornelius Hamelberg

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Apr 2, 2021, 3:24:25 PM4/2/21
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Re- Chielozona Eze Misinterpretes The Interpreters

It’s possible that the moderator was of the opinion that I am a sinner, that I had sinned or was being sinful and that’s why I’m carefully re-wording and then re-posting my contribution to this discussion hoping that it will be posted, because apparently my earlier posting was disapproved of by our moderator and that’s why it hasn’t appeared. Of course I could take recourse to expressing myself more fully and without the customary restraints or any fear of censorship or reprisals, here at my own personal blog We Sweden, without regret and free from any encouragements or interference by the thought police.

At the height of the Satanic Verses Controversy, on the way home after a meeting sponsored by the Swedish Section of PEN International, I was asked this memorable question by a Swedish writer Torbjörn Säfve: “Is there something so holy, that we can’t talk about it?” At which time I thought “the ineffable Name of God” otherwise referred to as the “Tetragrammaton”...

I guess that the corollary to that question is this other question: Is there something so unholy, or so forbidden that we can’t talk about it?

For instance here’s a little about “Yoruba Ifa on homosexuality” // Ifa on homosexuality

There’s also Rabbis on homosexuality

There are all kinds of fears, phobias about entering or participating in this kind of discussion: that homosexuals are very powerful people, that they have their special networks etc etc etc 

Time and again homosexuality has been discussed in this forum, in even extreme jargon as in this instance: Was Satan Straight or Gay? Robert Mugabe Weighs In, Again!!!

As we all know, homosexuality and homophobia as a reaction to homosexuality is one of the most contentious and one of the most sensitive issues in our realm of human affairs. I think that this is so, to the extent that our moderator is not willing to allow certain views through in this forum’s realm of freedom, the USA- Africa dialogue series zone over which, to all intents and purposes the flag of The First Amendment is still flying without abruption, and for many of us it’s also still axiomatic that “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness

Nor do we believe that “Hate speech “should be given any space in this forum - and hate speech in this case would endorse the death penalty and other punitive measures for the theory and practice of homosexuality. Therefore to begin with let me sincerely denounce hate speech and continue with what is manifestly not hate speech and is maybe love talk:

If Olyainka Agbetuyi’s perception that “This discussion. (on this listserv) is heavily influenced by the Americanised consciousness of discussants” is correct then Kenneth Harrow’s apocalyptic “i believe the time for change is here, finally” would be a prophesy on the cusp of fulfilment, that we are now living at the very end of days and what Kenneth Harrow says tallies with the fulfilment of what some of the Nigerian pastors are saying, that for a little while longer Satan the prince of darkness will be doing his rounds, doing his best to lead mankind astray, to make lawful that which God Himself has declared to be unlawful, but not for much longer, because Satan will soon be chained

The fact is, statistically speaking, the unquantified and probably unquantifiable “heavily influenced by the Americanised consciousness of discussants” is mere conjecture - most people on this list are still culturally very conscious twenty-first century Africans when it comes to drawing the line, the live and let live line between tolerance and acceptance of diverse sexual orientations. Practising homosexuals and the super heterosexuals may celebrate renowned homosexuals such as Langston Hughes, James Baldwin, Allen Ginsberg, Oscar Wilde, Patrick White for their literary output but I have not yet heard any of the Black and Beautiful discussants among us glorifying homosexuality, simply because, most of the believers among us have yet to oppose the religious mores of homophobic Islam and homophobic Christianity, not to mention the “people of the Book” whose book the Tanakh is also extremely hostile to homosexuality, in spite of which and notwithstanding, Tel Aviv is currently the Mecca of the Gay, because Modern Israel being a secular state and not a theocracy, Homosexuality is legal in Israel

Once upon a time Bob Dylan sang,

You’re going to Sodom and Gomorrah
But what do you care? Ain’t nobody there

Would want to marry your sister…”

And it is this Sodom and Gomorrah episode in the Bible that our Bible thumpers love to quote when railing against homosexuality

African consciousness and attendant attitudes towards homosexuality very much alive in Senegal to where Barack Obama once flew on Air Force One, just to tell the Brethren there that they must legalise homosexuality, they must listen to his Americanised Consciousness which says free your mind and your ass will follow or is it supposed to be the other way round, “free your ass and your mind will follow!”? It’s possible that Brother Obama had calculated that the French Colonial assimilation policy which I assume includes homosexual practice as a legal part of French culture must have penetrated so deep and must have taken deep roots in Senegal, to the extent that that’s the place in Africa that he thought that he could probably start a successful campaign to make homosexuality kosher, as never before – so that in the name of democracy, some Senegalese Bro could be singing to his fellow Senegalese Bro,

“Oh baby, we'll be making love again
We'll be going down so deep
The river's going to weep
And the mountain's going to shout, "Amen" “

Wole Soyinka doesn’t have to be “vindicated”; Human Rights Activist Wole Soyinka’s position on homosexuality is not hidden, so we don’t have to play hide and seek or hide and speak with him. Just as dear Biko Agozino says, we cannot and may not refer to that lone, taunted, ridiculed, satirised but not despised character Joe Golder who fulfils his function in “ The Interpreters” as the sum total of Soyinka’s stand on Human Rights for the gay people of Africa and everywhere else.





Harrow, Kenneth

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Apr 2, 2021, 6:27:55 PM4/2/21
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cornelius's list of famous gay black figures includes baldwin, whose works and reputation have recently received considerable attention--a resurgence. perhaps a status not possible in times of his early work when it was illegal to perform gay sexual acts.
now he is at great heights--a sign that times have changed.
one could think of other examples, i am sure.
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu


From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, April 2, 2021 11:21 AM
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Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re – The on-going discussion in "Chielozona Eze Misinterprets
 
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Toyin Falola

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Apr 2, 2021, 6:39:56 PM4/2/21
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I am rejecting a number of post that crosses the lines….

Dr BioDun J Ogundayo

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Apr 2, 2021, 6:48:42 PM4/2/21
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Ponder this folks: Is it okay for black people to be homophobic, or anti-gay, given our history as a ‘race’?


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BioDun J. Ogundayo , PhD. Arokesagun

Dr BioDun J Ogundayo

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Apr 2, 2021, 7:47:53 PM4/2/21
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Most of us men are uncomfortabe with LGBTQ probable because we would be challenged to reassess our masculinity, patriarchy, sexism, and how we perceive and treat women, especially in our most intimate(physical and emotional) spaces and selves. 

Socialization and cultural conditioning can sometimes run smack into moral/ethical consistency and integrity, especially for Black folk.

Moses Ochonu

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Apr 3, 2021, 4:54:13 AM4/3/21
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Yes, Biodun; much of the homophobia in Africa is grounded in masculine insecurities and in anxieties about the fragility of patriarchy. Patriarchy is a powerful, consequential, and oppressive force, but like most power formations it has a soft, insecure underbelly. This precarity means that it always needs a foil. That foil is sometimes feminism and its perceived threats. Sometimes that foil is minority sexualities and their alleged perversion of heteronormativity. In both cases, patriarchy, those invested in it, and those whose identities, selfhood, and personal economies are bound up with it reinforce and police it by constantly identifying threats that need to be extinguished. It would seem that in many parts of Africa today, alternative sexual orientations have emerged as that constructed threat and homophobic policies have in turn emerged as arenas for enacting and reinforcing patriarchy and macho masculinity.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 2, 2021, at 2:47 PM, Dr BioDun J Ogundayo <akand...@gmail.com> wrote:



Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM

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Apr 3, 2021, 11:12:03 AM4/3/21
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Professors Ken and Gloria,
Are polygamy and polyandry human rights? 

If yes, are they universal?

-Chidi Anthony Opara (CAO).

OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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Apr 3, 2021, 11:12:25 AM4/3/21
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Biodun.

I dont think your question is appropriately framed.

It panders to western politicised conception of Blackness as an undifferentiated homogenous mass.  That is a concept that fits only diaspora Blacks.

Blacks in Africa do not see themselves as an undifferentiated mass as Washington and London educated elites see us.  


Each nation sees themselves as reacting to incidents of gayness according to their heterogeneous antecedents.

I am glad Oga Cornelius shared the link how Ifá a millenial Yorùbá institution sees gayness from the health perspective.


This in addition for me, foregrounds Ifá institution as the foremost health institution of the Yoruba and not just a divination system.  It foretells the health consequences of gayness on the society at large.

I stand on the wisdom of Ifá.



OAA



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-------- Original message --------
From: Dr BioDun J Ogundayo <akand...@gmail.com>
Date: 02/04/2021 19:54 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to behomophobic, or anti-gay?

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Ponder this folks: Is it okay for black people to be homophobic, or anti-gay, given our history as a ‘race’?

On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 14:39 Toyin Falola <toyin...@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
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Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM

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Apr 3, 2021, 12:00:30 PM4/3/21
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Are polygamy and polyandry human rights?

If yes, are they universal rights?

-CAO.

OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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Apr 3, 2021, 12:23:02 PM4/3/21
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They are societal specific universal  human rights just like monogamy wherever practiced.

They all involve consenting adults


OAA



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-------- Original message --------
From: "Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM" <chidi...@gmail.com>
Date: 03/04/2021 13:04 (GMT+00:00)
To: USA African Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people tobehomophobic, or anti-gay?

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Are polygamy and polyandry human rights?

If yes, are they universal rights?

-CAO.

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021, 12:12 PM OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com> wrote:

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Gloria Emeagwali

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Apr 3, 2021, 12:36:05 PM4/3/21
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Chidi,

Unfortunately the same mindset that attacks the LGBTQ community also works against polytheism, polygamy and polyandry. 
It is a police surveillance mentality that seeks to impose one single, self serving  monotheistic and  monogamous understanding of existence.
Polygamy has several strengths when appropriately practised. South Asians did not have to ask  your permission to practise
 polyandry nor did some African communities where polyandry and polygamy  emerged historically   in the context of  huge demographic
 imbalances and specific economic configurations. 

 As I have pointed out, there are numerous reasons behind the growth of the LGBTQ community.  Religious hypocrisy is one of them. Ask the innocent  acolytes,
lured into religious sanctuaries by hypocritical  men of the flock.  Don't you know what I am talking about?

 Given the complicated religious, biological, cultural and  socio- cultural  circumstances surrounding the emergence of
 the LGBTQ community, we do not have the right to pass judgement. It is the human right of these communities to
 challenge their oppressors and live with dignity, freedom and peace.


Professor Gloria Emeagwali

Dr BioDun J Ogundayo

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Apr 3, 2021, 12:57:21 PM4/3/21
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Poser: 
If a group of Nigerians/Africans/Black people created/invented/developped technologies/solutions to our most desperate problems, and right after, they publicly stated they were LGBTQetc., would/should we reject them and their solutions in order to keep our “cultural/moral/ethical” integrity/purity?
‘BioDun

Harrow, Kenneth

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Apr 3, 2021, 3:22:56 PM4/3/21
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hi chidi
i don't think marriage arrangements are universal rights but social agreements. the idea of outlawing polygamy, say, was made by religious missionaries, who were operating out of a set of beliefs that were grounded in eurocentric values. the damage was made worse by promoting beliefs in punishments and rewards in an afterlife, which condemned people to believe their ancestors were punished eternally.

noxious beliefs.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu


From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM <chidi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 3, 2021 2:56 AM

To: USA African Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to be homophobic, or anti-gay?
 

OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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Apr 3, 2021, 3:23:05 PM4/3/21
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I have stated it is not a question of rejection.  It is a question of therapy and counseling.  Ifá counsels, offers therapies.  In western thought, psychoanalysis counsels, offers therapies.

I have also said the fact some people have unique marketable talents does not mean they can use those to blackmail and transgress, the norms of the society, especially if transgression entails endangering the larger society.

I have stated the case of a married bisexual  former Nigerian dictator who was reported to  practise his sexual lifestyle on younger men, go home to his wife, copulate with her and spread the vermin from his illicit lifestyle, go to his girlfriend , a popular newscaster whose family house is round the corner from mine and spread the pathogens from his illicit encounter.

Was he being fair to both women?

Did nt both women deserve better than that?


If lower animals can get over their adolescent gay trials and settle into mature sexual, biological natural preference why would members of the human race who pride themselves as the epitome of the highest Reason above lower animals not be able to readjust back to the path of the natural order of things, and insist on twisting' the pursuit of happiness' in such selfish ways until it endangers other members of their race?



OAA



Sent from my Galaxy



-------- Original message --------
From: Dr BioDun J Ogundayo <akand...@gmail.com>
Date: 03/04/2021 14:05 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to behomophobic, or anti-gay?

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Poser: 
If a group of Nigerians/Africans/Black people created/invented/developped technologies/solutions to our most desperate problems, and right after, they publicly stated they were LGBTQetc., would/should we reject them and their solutions in order to keep our “cultural/moral/ethical” integrity/purity?
‘BioDun
On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 08:36 Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM

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Apr 3, 2021, 3:23:46 PM4/3/21
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OAA,
Why is it that the condemnation "homophobia"(mainly from Africa) receives, does not come near to the condemnation "polyphobia"(mainly from the West) receives or supposed to receive?

-CAO.


On Saturday, April 3, 2021, OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com> wrote:



They are societal specific universal  human rights just like monogamy wherever practiced.

They all involve consenting adults


OAA



Sent from my Galaxy



-------- Original message --------
From: "Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM" <chidi...@gmail.com>
Date: 03/04/2021 13:04 (GMT+00:00)
To: USA African Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people tobehomophobic, or anti-gay?

Boxbe This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (chidi...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule | More info
Are polygamy and polyandry human rights?

If yes, are they universal rights?

-CAO.
On Sat, Apr 3, 2021, 12:12 PM OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com> wrote:




Biodun.

I dont think your question is appropriately framed.

It panders to western politicised conception of Blackness as an undifferentiated homogenous mass.  That is a concept that fits only diaspora Blacks.

Blacks in Africa do not see themselves as an undifferentiated mass as Washington and London educated elites see us.  


Each nation sees themselves as reacting to incidents of gayness according to their heterogeneous antecedents.

I am glad Oga Cornelius shared the link how Ifá a millenial Yorùbá institution sees gayness from the health perspective.


This in addition for me, foregrounds Ifá institution as the foremost health institution of the Yoruba and not just a divination system.  It foretells the health consequences of gayness on the society at large.

I stand on the wisdom of Ifá.



OAA



Sent from my Galaxy



-------- Original message --------
From: Dr BioDun J Ogundayo <akand...@gmail.com>
Date: 02/04/2021 19:54 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to behomophobic, or anti-gay?

Boxbe This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (akand...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule | More info

Ponder this folks: Is it okay for black people to be homophobic, or anti-gay, given our history as a ‘race’?

On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 14:39 Toyin Falola <toyin...@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:

I am rejecting a number of post that crosses the lines….

 

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>
Date: Friday, April 2, 2021 at 1:27 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re – The on-going discussion in "Chielozona Eze Misinterprets

cornelius's list of famous gay black figures includes baldwin, whose works and reputation have recently received considerable attention--a resurgence. perhaps a status not possible in times of his early work when it was illegal to perform gay sexual acts.

now he is at great heights--a sign that times have changed.

one could think of other examples, i am sure.

ken

 

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu


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Chielozona Eze

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Apr 3, 2021, 4:06:07 PM4/3/21
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Chidi

We might never understand the notion of human rights if we keep approaching it from the dominant abstract perspectives such as culture, religion, heritage under which practices such as polygamy and polyandry fall.

 

The term “universal” does not mean that a particular practice applies everywhere and at all times. It would be foolhardy to expect monogamy to become a form of marriage practiced everywhere in the world as a universal law. Universal refers to the conception of the individual as possessing dignity and moral sphere by the power of which s/he demands respect, justice and fairness from others.

 

For example: In Mariama Ba’s So Long a Letter, Ramatoulaye accuses her husband Modou Fall of betrayal because Modou married another woman. She accuses him of being unfair to her. Modou has not done anything that the culture does not permit. So, one might ask: why would Ramatoulaye write such a long letter whining about a man doing what men are allowed to do?

 

Another example:

In Buchi Emecheta’s The Joys of Motherhood, we read how Nnu Ego has to prepare her marital bed for her husband to consummate his marriage to Adaku. Nnu Ego has to sleep on the floor of the same room while Nnaife and Adaku are digging it out right above them. And she bites her teeth into her baby’s night clothes to prevent herself from screaming.

 

Another contemporary example is Ayobami Adebayo’s novel, Stay with Me, which is not about polygamy, but about how women are treated as means to ends rather than as ends in themselves.

 

The contribution of literature to the discourse of human rights is that it grounds the concept in everyday reality (in people's feelings), and encourages us to engage it from bottom-up. When these women write about how they are treated, they basically ask society (men) to put themselves in the women’s position for a while. This is the germ of universality. This, I think, is the greatest contribution of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: it provided working vocabularies with which individuals can draw attention to themselves as deserving respect.

 

The questions we ought to keep at the back of our minds when considering any so-called cultural practice: Whom (group/gender) does the underlying narrative favor; who is invested in protecting it? Would they still be protecting it if positions were reversed?

Chielo





Chielozona Eze
Bernard J. Brommel Distinguished Research Professor
Professor, Africana Studies, Northeastern Illinois University; Extraordinary Professor, Stellenbosch University, South Africa.Fellow - Stellenbosch Institute for Advanced Studies, South Africa
https://neiu.academia.edu/ChielozonaEze




Moses Ochonu

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Apr 3, 2021, 6:58:16 PM4/3/21
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Brother Chielozona,

Literature is no doubt a mirror to society, or it can be. I am however reticent to approximate to formalized, written literature the status of the final word when it comes to African female perspectives on polygamy. To the extent that fictional literature is also experiential and embodies the authors’ particular anxieties and lenses on society, we have to consider the fact that the works you mentioned represent a certain elite female demographic, and even within that context it is debatable whether the perspectives you outlined represent the paradigmatic sentiment. Several other African female perspectives on polygamy exist and are not codified in formal, non-vernacular literature, but are contained in vernacular and oral sources. I have listened to many interviews for instance with unlettered African women in polygamous relationships and their perspectives are a lot more nuanced than the one articulated in the fictional representations in the cited novels. One particular vernacular literary sphere that I am familiar with is the Soyyaya love literature in Hausaphone Northern Nigeria. In that genre, the portrayal of polygamy is quite nuanced. This is a long winded way of saying that perhaps we need to broaden the survey beyond the narrow space of novels written in the European languages by African women with a particular urban, elite pedigree. Having said that, I admit that I may be flattening a complex gender demographic myself when I speak of elite, urban women writers.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 3, 2021, at 11:06 AM, Chielozona Eze <chi...@gmail.com> wrote:



Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM

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Apr 3, 2021, 6:58:26 PM4/3/21
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Chielozona,
Human rights can be cultural and/or religious.

The universality of human rights should be in the acceptance of such rights, even by people in whose locations such human rights are not practised.

Human rights practices can still cause unease to some persons due to vested interests and such persons would of course complain.

The literary situations you referenced are personal opinions.

-CAO.

Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

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Apr 3, 2021, 6:58:51 PM4/3/21
to Chielozona Eze, 'Ayotunde Bewaji' via USA Africa Dialogue Series
May I suggest that Mariana Ba and Emecheta
 very rightly point to very toxic models of 
polygamy that are indeed hurtful and 
insulting - and violations of rights.

These are not the only models, however.
I have come across cases where  there is 
voluntary acceptance of the institution by
professional women who seek their own space,
 live in  different towns but prefer identification 
with an extended family and a father figure.
Others do not want the responsibilities 
of children but prefer a stable relationship.
There are also models where unofficial 
 polygamy  exists.

Not all gay couples are monogamous and some
monogamous families are only so in name, 
with scores of children born  outside 
wedlock.

We are seeing cases of three parent families 
and  polyamory in some regions  with dynamics
that may be more complicated than 
traditional polygamy.



Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies, CCSU
africahistory.net; vimeo.com/ gloriaemeagwali
Recipient of the 2014 Distinguished Research
Excellence Award, Univ. of Texas at Austin;
2019 Distinguished Africanist Award
New York African Studies Association

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Sent: Saturday, April 3, 2021 11:49 AM
To: 'Ayotunde Bewaji' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to be homophobic, or anti-gay?
 

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Dr BioDun J Ogundayo

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Apr 3, 2021, 6:59:05 PM4/3/21
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Thank you for your insights, sir. Especially your pointed examples of Emecheta’s and Bà’s (semi/autobiographical) oeuvres, which I have taught for a couple of decades in my neck of the woods as part of African/Africana women’s literature. 

My students, as wise and insightful as ever, have led me to a different place by their questioning, their humanity, their visceral/intuitive grasp of the whole notion of culturally and imperialistically determined sexual/gender “deviancy/ies” of LGBTQetc.

My posers on this platform on the subject have been to elicit some insights, and not the dismissive cultural chauvinism that presents itself as the Delphic font of all wisdom and truth.

Humility and generousity of spirit matter, even when the cudgel of our moral/intellectual superiority is acute and seductive. 

Again, and back to my question that started this phase of the sexuality/gendered palava: 

Is it morally/ethically consistent for Black people wherever to participate in all manner of homophobia—given our 500+ years of being denied our basic humanity simply because of our phenotype which, assuredly, was never our own choice? I am not equating being black with being gay, for those of us who think that the latter is a choice.
‘BioDun

Joseph Bangura

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Apr 3, 2021, 7:28:50 PM4/3/21
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com, Chielozona Eze
Are we talking about polygyny or polygamy in Africa?

Sent from my iPhone

Moses Ochonu

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Apr 3, 2021, 7:29:06 PM4/3/21
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Exactly Gloria; there are as many perspectives on polygamy among African women as there are models of polygamy. Some African female narratives on polygamy upend the toxic situations portrayed in some of the cited literary works. As you say, for some professional African women polygamy is an empowering, more convenient marital arrangement than monogamous marriage.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 3, 2021, at 1:58 PM, Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM <chidi...@gmail.com> wrote:



Moses Ebe Ochonu

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Apr 3, 2021, 7:43:06 PM4/3/21
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My understanding is that we're talking about polygyny but that we're using polygamy loosely to refer to it since that is the term that is generally/popularly understood metonymically to refer to polygyny.

Cornelius Hamelberg

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Apr 3, 2021, 7:53:37 PM4/3/21
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Gentle Ladies & Gentle Men,

If we’re pontificating about African tradition then you’ve got hold your horses! Aren’t we jumping the gun a little, talking about stereo and mono, mono-gamy, poly-gamy etc. when mono and ploy is supposed to be preceded by Umemulo ka Lungile Zulu?

Ama actually thinking of Okot p'Bitek’s Song of Lawino, his “Song of Ocol” and his “White Teeth”. As Don Harrow says, “one could think of other examples, i am sure

Dunno to what extent literature - fiction/ science fiction even as in the case of p’Bitek, protest literature is an accurate mirror of reality, when literature as per the author's vantage perspective is the reality….

In my humble opinion, the opposite of pontificating is defecating (and if I continued with that train of thought about that most sensitive hole, then O'Fallon would have said that I had crossed either this “the line” or the Mason and Dixon Line ( smile) 


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Chielozona Eze

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Apr 3, 2021, 9:26:10 PM4/3/21
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I cannot contest what you said, Moses, bros. I am aware that Ba and Emecheta belong to the elite females of their societies. Surely, the written literature does not claim to have a final word on the issue of polygamy. I don’t know much about Soyyaya love literature in Hausaphone Northern Nigeria. Their stories might not be much different from that of my paternal grandmother who was the sixth wife of my grandfather. There is no way I can say that she wasn’t a happy woman. Judging the contexts of her “happiness” however allows me to make some fairly general statement about polygamy in Igboland. She had been married to another man before but was “sent back” to her parents because she was said to be barren. My grandfather went for her because he needed a woman to take care of him in his old age. Nine months later, my uncle was born, and about three years later, my father. If she had been asked whether she was happy with her marriage I’m sure she would have said that she was. When people have not been exposed to alternatives, they’re usually forced to be happy with what they have.

As an aside: When Harriet Jacobs published her autobiography, Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl, racist Southerners doubted that she was the author, and when they could no longer doubt, they dismissed her narrative as elitist, claiming that ordinary slaves were happy with their lot.

Of course, polygamy and slavery are not the same, but we have got to trust the stories of those who have lived through a certain experience. Or at least suspend disbelief.
Chielozona



Chielozona Eze
Bernard J. Brommel Distinguished Research Professor
Professor, Africana Studies, Northeastern Illinois University; Extraordinary Professor, Stellenbosch University, South Africa.Fellow - Stellenbosch Institute for Advanced Studies, South Africa
https://neiu.academia.edu/ChielozonaEze



Chielozona Eze

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Apr 3, 2021, 9:26:26 PM4/3/21
to 'Ayotunde Bewaji' via USA Africa Dialogue Series

Chidi, bros.

The above are mere declarations. I would love to leave them the way you formulated them, not because they are right or wrong, but because they are just propositions that allow for no discussions.

Chielozona

Chielozona Eze
Bernard J. Brommel Distinguished Research Professor
Professor, Africana Studies, Northeastern Illinois University; Extraordinary Professor, Stellenbosch University, South Africa.Fellow - Stellenbosch Institute for Advanced Studies, South Africa
https://neiu.academia.edu/ChielozonaEze



OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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Apr 4, 2021, 12:14:12 AM4/4/21
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GE:

Thank you as usual for illuminating connubial  issues with your broad swathe of experience.

As Bangura wants to clarify, we are indeed talking of polygyny, with its more visible structure of polygamy. Some societies prefer polyandry.  Indeed many Caribbean and Black American ladies prefer serial polyandry and will talk calmly of their baby fathers.

I have a middle aged Caribbean mature student who has two Jamaican baby fathers with the first daughter a university graduate and the last daughter aged 12 by a Nigerian.  I had to proactively put my foot down that business is business; no fourth baby father!

I mentioned a Nigerian magnate here on this forum one of whose wives had him as her third husband.  She was the hub around all the children who lived with her and the last husband ( the magnate) provided the house in which all lived

I have recounted on this forum more than 10 years ago how my boss sent me to cover a burial ceremony for one of his university mates ( as weekend soft news programme) involved in polygamy with two university graduate wives bedecked in damask and flanking him on both sides at the occasion.


OAA



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-------- Original message --------
From: Moses Ebe Ochonu <meoc...@gmail.com>
Date: 03/04/2021 20:55 (GMT+00:00)
To: USAAfricaDialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to behomophobic, or anti-gay?

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My understanding is that we're talking about polygyny but that we're using polygamy loosely to refer to it since that is the term that is generally/popularly understood metonymically to refer to polygyny.

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 2:28 PM Joseph Bangura <Joseph....@kzoo.edu> wrote:

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OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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Well, your paternal grandma was exposed to alternatuves.  Of course objectively judged the second polygamous  alternative was better.  Would you agree?


OAA



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-------- Original message --------
From: Chielozona Eze <chi...@gmail.com>
Date: 03/04/2021 22:27 (GMT+00:00)
To: 'Ayotunde Bewaji' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to behomophobic, or anti-gay?

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I cannot contest what you said, Moses, bros. I am aware that Ba and Emecheta belong to the elite females of their societies. Surely, the written literature does not claim to have a final word on the issue of polygamy. I don’t know much about Soyyaya love literature in Hausaphone Northern Nigeria. Their stories might not be much different from that of my paternal grandmother who was the sixth wife of my grandfather. There is no way I can say that she wasn’t a happy woman. Judging the contexts of her “happiness” however allows me to make some fairly general statement about polygamy in Igboland. She had been married to another man before but was “sent back” to her parents because she was said to be barren. My grandfather went for her because he needed a woman to take care of him in his old age. Nine months later, my uncle was born, and about three years later, my father. If she had been asked whether she was happy with her marriage I’m sure she would have said that she was. When people have not been exposed to alternatives, they’re usually forced to be happy with what they have.

As an aside: When Harriet Jacobs published her autobiography, Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl, racist Southerners doubted that she was the author, and when they could no longer doubt, they dismissed her narrative as elitist, claiming that ordinary slaves were happy with their lot.

Of course, polygamy and slavery are not the same, but we have got to trust the stories of those who have lived through a certain experience. Or at least suspend disbelief.
Chielozona



Chielozona Eze
Bernard J. Brommel Distinguished Research Professor
Professor, Africana Studies, Northeastern Illinois University; Extraordinary Professor, Stellenbosch University, South Africa.Fellow - Stellenbosch Institute for Advanced Studies, South Africa
https://neiu.academia.edu/ChielozonaEze



On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 1:58 PM Moses Ochonu <meoc...@gmail.com> wrote:

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OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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Did Ba and Emecheta ever say their narratives were biographical ( not to even talk of autobiographical) or were they fictive?

Why must we handle such narratives as gospel truths with one on one correspondence with reality by which we define universal rights?


OAA



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-------- Original message --------
From: Dr BioDun J Ogundayo <akand...@gmail.com>
Date: 03/04/2021 20:09 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to behomophobic, or anti-gay?

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Thank you for your insights, sir. Especially your pointed examples of Emecheta’s and Bà’s (semi/autobiographical) oeuvres, which I have taught for a couple of decades in my neck of the woods as part of African/Africana women’s literature. 

My students, as wise and insightful as ever, have led me to a different place by their questioning, their humanity, their visceral/intuitive grasp of the whole notion of culturally and imperialistically determined sexual/gender “deviancy/ies” of LGBTQetc.

My posers on this platform on the subject have been to elicit some insights, and not the dismissive cultural chauvinism that presents itself as the Delphic font of all wisdom and truth.

Humility and generousity of spirit matter, even when the cudgel of our moral/intellectual superiority is acute and seductive. 

Again, and back to my question that started this phase of the sexuality/gendered palava: 

Is it morally/ethically consistent for Black people wherever to participate in all manner of homophobia—given our 500+ years of being denied our basic humanity simply because of our phenotype which, assuredly, was never our own choice? I am not equating being black with being gay, for those of us who think that the latter is a choice.
‘BioDun
On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 12:06 Chielozona Eze <chi...@gmail.com> wrote:
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BioDun J. Ogundayo , PhD. Arokesagun

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Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

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Apr 4, 2021, 1:14:25 AM4/4/21
to OLAYINKA AGBETUYI, usaafric...@googlegroups.com
You are right. Serial polyandry is common in the Caribbean.

It probably developed  in protest against errant 
husbands  and lovers, and became a pattern. 
When you get  lemons make lemonade. 
Men can be thrown in jail for not supporting 
their children in some regions, so there is 
an economic incentive.

Just before reading your last post I was reflecting 
on a recent situation where an acquaintance 
from a West  African country  recently discovered 
that his 19  year old son was not really his. 
He was doing polygamy,  and his wife polyandry, simultaneously. 

To avoid similar situations some royals
employed  castrated bodyguards- 
who in turn expand the LGBTQ community in
large numbers. I don’t think Soyinka 
talked about the context. Did he?

I must add that to my previous list.


GE




Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies, CCSU
africahistory.net; vimeo.com/ gloriaemeagwali
Recipient of the 2014 Distinguished Research
Excellence Award, Univ. of Texas at Austin;
2019 Distinguished Africanist Award
New York African Studies Association

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 3, 2021 5:31 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to behomophobic, or anti-gay?
 

Dr BioDun J Ogundayo

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Apr 4, 2021, 4:23:31 AM4/4/21
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Dear Sir, Dr Agbetuyi,
Kindly re-read what I wrote. Really!!!

I never asserted that Emecheta and Bâ ever said that 
“their narratives were biographical or autobiographical” as you state. Maybe in your mind, nobody else can formulate their thoughts/ideas/hypotheses/etc about anything until, and unless,  they satisfy your framing of the same, or your approval of the same. 

An opportunity to have enlightening conversation quickly becomes an empty, tedious, exercise in semantic polemics in which you must be the final arbiter, else the discussion degenerates into ad hominem and egotistic back-and-forth, ad infinitum, ad nauseam...

Did I ever claim that Emecheta’s and Bâ’s are gospels truths? Where? When?  As to whether the specific works of the 2 writers mentioned in this thread are fictive, or not, perhaps you, sir, have the only answer.

At what point is a conversation totally irrelevant, redundant, and an utter waste of time? 
There is power in silence. I will keep my power and silence.
Respectfully,
‘BioDun

Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM

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Apr 4, 2021, 4:23:43 AM4/4/21
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The reason why I asked the question whether polygamy and polyandry are human rights and if yes, whether they are universal, which I think brought up the issues of polygamy and polyandry and even a slight mention of polytheism (I think by Gloria) is because, equal resources are not invested in shooting down "polyphobia" in the West as in "homophobia" in Africa.

-CAO.

Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to behomophobic, or anti-gay?

Please be cautious: **External Email**




GE:

Thank you as usual for illuminating connubial  issues with your broad swathe of experience.

As Bangura wants to clarify, we are indeed talking of polygyny, with its more visible structure of polygamy. Some societies prefer polyandry.  Indeed many Caribbean and Black American ladies prefer serial polyandry and will talk calmly of their baby fathers.

I have a middle aged Caribbean mature student who has two Jamaican baby fathers with the first daughter a university graduate and the last daughter aged 12 by a Nigerian.  I had to proactively put my foot down that business is business; no fourth baby father!

I mentioned a Nigerian magnate here on this forum one of whose wives had him as her third husband.  She was the hub around all the children who lived with her and the last husband ( the magnate) provided the house in which all lived

I have recounted on this forum more than 10 years ago how my boss sent me to cover a burial ceremony for one of his university mates ( as weekend soft news programme) involved in polygamy with two university graduate wives bedecked in damask and flanking him on both sides at the occasion.


OAA



Sent from my Galaxy



-------- Original message --------
From: Moses Ebe Ochonu <meoc...@gmail.com>
Date: 03/04/2021 20:55 (GMT+00:00)
To: USAAfricaDialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to behomophobic, or anti-gay?

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My understanding is that we're talking about polygyny but that we're using polygamy loosely to refer to it since that is the term that is generally/popularly understood metonymically to refer to polygyny.

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 2:28 PM Joseph Bangura <Joseph....@kzoo.edu> wrote:
Are we talking about polygyny or polygamy in Africa?

Sent from my iPhone


Sent: Saturday, April 3, 2021 11:49 AM
To: 'Ayotunde Bewaji' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to be homophobic, or anti-gay?
 

Please be cautious: **External Email**

Chidi


Sent: Saturday, April 3, 2021 2:56 AM
To: USA African Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>

Harrow, Kenneth

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Apr 5, 2021, 7:36:22 PM4/5/21
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chidi, you are really pushing the logic here. homophobia is a bias against a real group of people, a significant group, who have been victims of hate and hate crimes as long as i can remember. if people want to marry more than one spouse, they are not constituted as a group in the same way that being a member of a race or gender is.
i have nothing against people have more than one partner, and i bet most people everywhere have similar sentiments, unless they are religious nutcases.
the issue you are raising turns more on western prejudices against african practices; and there you will find wide agreement not only here, on the list, but among most educated peoples. the vast biases against africa are indeed a problem. but comparing them to homophobia is a way to deflect us from the real issue.
and it is really quite simple. are gays to be accorded their rights everywhere or not? to me it is a lot like asking where women also are to be accorded their rights, like decent jobs or having abortions. it is rightwing religious groups that pose huge obstacles here.
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu


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OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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Apr 5, 2021, 10:55:39 PM4/5/21
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Ken:


I disagree that women's rights and gay rights are comparable.

Women are natural progression formation, gays are lifestyle choices.

Again its an insult to womanhood to compare them.

Gays are subsets of men and women.  Women have their gays too.

Its misleading to foreground such comparison to deflect the real issues.


OAA



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-------- Original message --------
From: "Harrow, Kenneth" <har...@msu.edu>
Date: 05/04/2021 20:43 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to behomophobic, or anti-gay?

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chidi, you are really pushing the logic here. homophobia is a bias against a real group of people, a significant group, who have been victims of hate and hate crimes as long as i can remember. if people want to marry more than one spouse, they are not constituted as a group in the same way that being a member of a race or gender is.
i have nothing against people have more than one partner, and i bet most people everywhere have similar sentiments, unless they are religious nutcases.
the issue you are raising turns more on western prejudices against african practices; and there you will find wide agreement not only here, on the list, but among most educated peoples. the vast biases against africa are indeed a problem. but comparing them to homophobia is a way to deflect us from the real issue.
and it is really quite simple. are gays to be accorded their rights everywhere or not? to me it is a lot like asking where women also are to be accorded their rights, like decent jobs or having abortions. it is rightwing religious groups that pose huge obstacles here.
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu


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Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

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Apr 5, 2021, 11:14:42 PM4/5/21
to OLAYINKA AGBETUYI, usaafric...@googlegroups.com
OA
What do you say about the LGBTQ community that
is of biological/genetic origin? 


Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies


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