Re- Chielozona Eze Misinterpretes The Interpreters
It’s possible that the moderator was of the opinion that I am a sinner, that I had sinned or was being sinful and that’s why I’m carefully re-wording and then re-posting my contribution to this discussion hoping that it will be posted, because apparently my earlier posting was disapproved of by our moderator and that’s why it hasn’t appeared. Of course I could take recourse to expressing myself more fully and without the customary restraints or any fear of censorship or reprisals, here at my own personal blog We Sweden, without regret and free from any encouragements or interference by the thought police.
At the height of the Satanic Verses Controversy, on the way home after a meeting sponsored by the Swedish Section of PEN International, I was asked this memorable question by a Swedish writer Torbjörn Säfve: “Is there something so holy, that we can’t talk about it?” At which time I thought “the ineffable Name of God” otherwise referred to as the “Tetragrammaton”...
I guess that the corollary to that question is this other question: Is there something so unholy, or so forbidden that we can’t talk about it?
For instance here’s a little about “Yoruba Ifa on homosexuality” // Ifa on homosexuality
There’s also Rabbis on homosexuality
There are all kinds of fears, phobias about entering or participating in this kind of discussion: that homosexuals are very powerful people, that they have their special networks etc etc etc
Time and again homosexuality has been discussed in this forum, in even extreme jargon as in this instance: Was Satan Straight or Gay? Robert Mugabe Weighs In, Again!!!
As we all know, homosexuality and homophobia as a reaction to homosexuality is one of the most contentious and one of the most sensitive issues in our realm of human affairs. I think that this is so, to the extent that our moderator is not willing to allow certain views through in this forum’s realm of freedom, the USA- Africa dialogue series zone over which, to all intents and purposes the flag of The First Amendment is still flying without abruption, and for many of us it’s also still axiomatic that “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness… “
Nor do we believe that “Hate speech “should be given any space in this forum - and hate speech in this case would endorse the death penalty and other punitive measures for the theory and practice of homosexuality. Therefore to begin with let me sincerely denounce hate speech and continue with what is manifestly not hate speech and is maybe love talk:
If Olyainka Agbetuyi’s perception that “This discussion. (on this listserv) is heavily influenced by the Americanised consciousness of discussants” is correct then Kenneth Harrow’s apocalyptic “i believe the time for change is here, finally” would be a prophesy on the cusp of fulfilment, that we are now living at the very end of days and what Kenneth Harrow says tallies with the fulfilment of what some of the Nigerian pastors are saying, that for a little while longer Satan the prince of darkness will be doing his rounds, doing his best to lead mankind astray, to make lawful that which God Himself has declared to be unlawful, but not for much longer, because Satan will soon be chained…
The fact is, statistically speaking, the unquantified and probably unquantifiable “heavily influenced by the Americanised consciousness of discussants” is mere conjecture - most people on this list are still culturally very conscious twenty-first century Africans when it comes to drawing the line, the live and let live line between tolerance and acceptance of diverse sexual orientations. Practising homosexuals and the super heterosexuals may celebrate renowned homosexuals such as Langston Hughes, James Baldwin, Allen Ginsberg, Oscar Wilde, Patrick White for their literary output but I have not yet heard any of the Black and Beautiful discussants among us glorifying homosexuality, simply because, most of the believers among us have yet to oppose the religious mores of homophobic Islam and homophobic Christianity, not to mention the “people of the Book” whose book the Tanakh is also extremely hostile to homosexuality, in spite of which and notwithstanding, Tel Aviv is currently the Mecca of the Gay, because Modern Israel being a secular state and not a theocracy, Homosexuality is legal in Israel
Once upon a time Bob Dylan sang,
“You’re
going to Sodom and Gomorrah
But
what do you care? Ain’t nobody there
Would want to marry your sister…”
And it is this Sodom and Gomorrah episode in the Bible that our Bible thumpers love to quote when railing against homosexuality
African consciousness and attendant attitudes towards homosexuality very much alive in Senegal to where Barack Obama once flew on Air Force One, just to tell the Brethren there that they must legalise homosexuality, they must listen to his Americanised Consciousness which says free your mind and your ass will follow or is it supposed to be the other way round, “free your ass and your mind will follow!”? It’s possible that Brother Obama had calculated that the French Colonial assimilation policy which I assume includes homosexual practice as a legal part of French culture must have penetrated so deep and must have taken deep roots in Senegal, to the extent that that’s the place in Africa that he thought that he could probably start a successful campaign to make homosexuality kosher, as never before – so that in the name of democracy, some Senegalese Bro could be singing to his fellow Senegalese Bro,
“Oh
baby, we'll be making love again
We'll
be going down so deep
The
river's going to weep
And
the mountain's going to shout, "Amen"
“
Wole Soyinka doesn’t have to be “vindicated”; Human Rights Activist Wole Soyinka’s position on homosexuality is not hidden, so we don’t have to play hide and seek or hide and speak with him. Just as dear Biko Agozino says, we cannot and may not refer to that lone, taunted, ridiculed, satirised but not despised character Joe Golder who fulfils his function in “ The Interpreters” as the sum total of Soyinka’s stand on Human Rights for the gay people of Africa and everywhere else.
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
I am rejecting a number of post that crosses the lines….
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On Apr 2, 2021, at 2:47 PM, Dr BioDun J Ogundayo <akand...@gmail.com> wrote:
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kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
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They are societal specific universal human rights just like monogamy wherever practiced.
They all involve consenting adults
OAA
Sent from my Galaxy
-------- Original message --------
From: "Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM" <chidi...@gmail.com>Date: 03/04/2021 13:04 (GMT+00:00)
To: USA African Dialogue Series <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people tobehomophobic, or anti-gay?
Are polygamy and polyandry human rights?
If yes, are they universal rights?
-CAO.
On Sat, Apr 3, 2021, 12:12 PM OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Biodun.
I dont think your question is appropriately framed.
It panders to western politicised conception of Blackness as an undifferentiated homogenous mass. That is a concept that fits only diaspora Blacks.
Blacks in Africa do not see themselves as an undifferentiated mass as Washington and London educated elites see us.
Each nation sees themselves as reacting to incidents of gayness according to their heterogeneous antecedents.
I am glad Oga Cornelius shared the link how Ifá a millenial Yorùbá institution sees gayness from the health perspective.
This in addition for me, foregrounds Ifá institution as the foremost health institution of the Yoruba and not just a divination system. It foretells the health consequences of gayness on the society at large.
I stand on the wisdom of Ifá.
OAA
Sent from my Galaxy
-------- Original message --------From: Dr BioDun J Ogundayo <akand...@gmail.com>
Date: 02/04/2021 19:54 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to behomophobic, or anti-gay?
Ponder this folks: Is it okay for black people to be homophobic, or anti-gay, given our history as a ‘race’?
On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 14:39 Toyin Falola <toyin...@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
I am rejecting a number of post that crosses the lines….
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>
Date: Friday, April 2, 2021 at 1:27 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re – The on-going discussion in "Chielozona Eze Misinterpretscornelius's list of famous gay black figures includes baldwin, whose works and reputation have recently received considerable attention--a resurgence. perhaps a status not possible in times of his early work when it was illegal to perform gay sexual acts.
now he is at great heights--a sign that times have changed.
one could think of other examples, i am sure.
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
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Chidi
We might never understand the notion of human rights if we keep approaching it from the dominant abstract perspectives such as culture, religion, heritage under which practices such as polygamy and polyandry fall.
The term “universal” does not mean that a particular practice applies everywhere and at all times. It would be foolhardy to expect monogamy to become a form of marriage practiced everywhere in the world as a universal law. Universal refers to the conception of the individual as possessing dignity and moral sphere by the power of which s/he demands respect, justice and fairness from others.
For example: In Mariama Ba’s So Long a Letter, Ramatoulaye accuses her husband Modou Fall of betrayal because Modou married another woman. She accuses him of being unfair to her. Modou has not done anything that the culture does not permit. So, one might ask: why would Ramatoulaye write such a long letter whining about a man doing what men are allowed to do?
Another example:
In Buchi Emecheta’s The Joys of Motherhood, we read how Nnu Ego has to prepare her marital bed for her husband to consummate his marriage to Adaku. Nnu Ego has to sleep on the floor of the same room while Nnaife and Adaku are digging it out right above them. And she bites her teeth into her baby’s night clothes to prevent herself from screaming.
Another contemporary example is Ayobami Adebayo’s novel, Stay with Me, which is not about polygamy, but about how women are treated as means to ends rather than as ends in themselves.
The contribution of literature to the discourse of human rights is that it grounds the concept in everyday reality (in people's feelings), and encourages us to engage it from bottom-up. When these women write about how they are treated, they basically ask society (men) to put themselves in the women’s position for a while. This is the germ of universality. This, I think, is the greatest contribution of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: it provided working vocabularies with which individuals can draw attention to themselves as deserving respect.
The questions we ought to keep at the back of our minds when
considering any so-called cultural practice: Whom (group/gender) does the underlying narrative favor;
who is invested in protecting it? Would they still be protecting it if
positions were reversed?
Chielo
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On Apr 3, 2021, at 11:06 AM, Chielozona Eze <chi...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Please be cautious: **External Email**
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On Apr 3, 2021, at 1:58 PM, Chidi Anthony Opara, FIIM <chidi...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Gentle Ladies & Gentle Men,
If we’re pontificating about African tradition then you’ve got hold your horses! Aren’t we jumping the gun a little, talking about stereo and mono, mono-gamy, poly-gamy etc. when mono and ploy is supposed to be preceded by Umemulo ka Lungile Zulu?
Ama actually thinking of Okot p'Bitek’s Song of Lawino, his “Song of Ocol” and his “White Teeth”. As Don Harrow says, “one could think of other examples, i am sure “
Dunno to what extent literature - fiction/ science fiction even as in the case of p’Bitek, protest literature is an accurate mirror of reality, when literature as per the author's vantage perspective is the reality….
In my humble opinion, the opposite of pontificating is defecating (and if I continued with that train of thought about that most sensitive hole, then O'Fallon would have said that I had crossed either this “the line” or the Mason and Dixon Line ( smile)
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I cannot contest what you said, Moses, bros. I am aware that Ba and Emecheta belong to the elite females of their societies. Surely, the written literature does not claim to have a final word on the issue of polygamy. I don’t know much about Soyyaya love literature in Hausaphone Northern Nigeria. Their stories might not be much different from that of my paternal grandmother who was the sixth wife of my grandfather. There is no way I can say that she wasn’t a happy woman. Judging the contexts of her “happiness” however allows me to make some fairly general statement about polygamy in Igboland. She had been married to another man before but was “sent back” to her parents because she was said to be barren. My grandfather went for her because he needed a woman to take care of him in his old age. Nine months later, my uncle was born, and about three years later, my father. If she had been asked whether she was happy with her marriage I’m sure she would have said that she was. When people have not been exposed to alternatives, they’re usually forced to be happy with what they have.
As an aside: When Harriet Jacobs published her autobiography, Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl, racist Southerners doubted that she was the author, and when they could no longer doubt, they dismissed her narrative as elitist, claiming that ordinary slaves were happy with their lot.
Of course, polygamy and slavery are not the same, but we have got to trust the stories of those who have lived through a certain experience. Or at least suspend disbelief.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/73A709F4-0451-4955-A06F-E2AC4E07ABF8%40gmail.com.
Chidi, bros.
The above are mere declarations. I would love to leave them the way you formulated them, not because they are right or wrong, but because they are just propositions that allow for no discussions.
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I cannot contest what you said, Moses, bros. I am aware that Ba and Emecheta belong to the elite females of their societies. Surely, the written literature does not claim to have a final word on the issue of polygamy. I don’t know much about Soyyaya love literature in Hausaphone Northern Nigeria. Their stories might not be much different from that of my paternal grandmother who was the sixth wife of my grandfather. There is no way I can say that she wasn’t a happy woman. Judging the contexts of her “happiness” however allows me to make some fairly general statement about polygamy in Igboland. She had been married to another man before but was “sent back” to her parents because she was said to be barren. My grandfather went for her because he needed a woman to take care of him in his old age. Nine months later, my uncle was born, and about three years later, my father. If she had been asked whether she was happy with her marriage I’m sure she would have said that she was. When people have not been exposed to alternatives, they’re usually forced to be happy with what they have.
As an aside: When Harriet Jacobs published her autobiography, Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl, racist Southerners doubted that she was the author, and when they could no longer doubt, they dismissed her narrative as elitist, claiming that ordinary slaves were happy with their lot.
Of course, polygamy and slavery are not the same, but we have got to trust the stories of those who have lived through a certain experience. Or at least suspend disbelief.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/73A709F4-0451-4955-A06F-E2AC4E07ABF8%40gmail.com.
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From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 3, 2021 5:31 PM
To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to behomophobic, or anti-gay?
Please be cautious: **External Email**
GE:
Thank you as usual for illuminating connubial issues with your broad swathe of experience.
As Bangura wants to clarify, we are indeed talking of polygyny, with its more visible structure of polygamy. Some societies prefer polyandry. Indeed many Caribbean and Black American ladies prefer serial polyandry and will talk calmly of their baby fathers.
I have a middle aged Caribbean mature student who has two Jamaican baby fathers with the first daughter a university graduate and the last daughter aged 12 by a Nigerian. I had to proactively put my foot down that business is business; no fourth baby father!
I mentioned a Nigerian magnate here on this forum one of whose wives had him as her third husband. She was the hub around all the children who lived with her and the last husband ( the magnate) provided the house in which all lived
I have recounted on this forum more than 10 years ago how my boss sent me to cover a burial ceremony for one of his university mates ( as weekend soft news programme) involved in polygamy with two university graduate wives bedecked in damask and flanking him on both sides at the occasion.
OAA
Sent from my Galaxy
-------- Original message --------
From: Moses Ebe Ochonu <meoc...@gmail.com>Date: 03/04/2021 20:55 (GMT+00:00)
To: USAAfricaDialogue <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com>Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to behomophobic, or anti-gay?
My understanding is that we're talking about polygyny but that we're using polygamy loosely to refer to it since that is the term that is generally/popularly understood metonymically to refer to polygyny.
On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 2:28 PM Joseph Bangura <Joseph....@kzoo.edu> wrote:
Are we talking about polygyny or polygamy in Africa?
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Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Is it okay for Black people to be homophobic, or anti-gay?
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Chidi
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kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university