Scrivener and Tiddlywiki

[Mohammad]

I think Tiddlywiki is a much better tool than Scrivener 

https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener/features?os=Windows

What do you think? Is there anything TW cannot do and Scrivener can?

--Mohammad

[Mohammad]

AND I think TW5 can do this kind of things easier  than other tools out there

http://calnewport.com/blog/2009/05/11/how-to-build-a-paper-research-wiki/

--Mohammad

[Mark S.]

I haven't found any really good way with TW to create outline style text the way you can with Scrivener, OrgMode, or Dynalist.  In real life, you want to move blocks of text around easily within a structure. Perhaps you could do a flat-structure version of this, using draggable tiddlers to change the order. But for larger structures, you would have to do a lot of re-linking, or re-tagging. When you're trying to write flat-out, you don't want to mess with the mechanism itself. There's also the problem of insertion of additional resources (e.g. images) which is clumsy because you still have to create the links by hand rather than a simple drag-n-drop.

-- Mark

[@TiddlyTweeter]

I think Mark S.' points are good.

Architecturally I think TW (as is) can be cumbersome if you need to emulate dynamic outlining.

[Mohammad]

Hi Mark, Hi Josiah,
So it seems TW gets in trouble when dealing with long and large texts like a book chapter. The other problem may be create the output of such large texts in other format with good table of contents and reference. That is required when publishing in PDF or similar formats.

So are these areas of further research and development in Tiddlywiki or not?

Mohammad

[@TiddlyTweeter]

It is not so much length as dynamics.

Say you had a chapter of 35 of paragraphs, each a Tiddler but needed to reorder them...

I think the central issue is about Tiddlers. We tend to assume they are "units" ... But complexity arises in combinatorial situations. Was the unit right?

[TonyM]

I would ask you all, what is in these other outliners you cant imagine a solution for in tiddlywiki, I am not familiar with them.

Of interest is the workflow you use. To me I tend to organise information by metadata, or with headings which I can use as tiddler names, even if it contains sub tiddlers. More often than not the order tends only to change localy. Thus by tagging a tiddller with the parent/grandparent and using drag and drop on the tag lists I get all the control I desire.

Different views can be created in a single tiddler that renders a chapter, section or whole document in a similar way to a toc, for viewing, and or editing and or drag and drop reordering. You can make sections or chapters colapsible, edit inline, or display metadata.

So I am not sure what is missing or can not be made.

This is a comment, from my mobile, as I happen to be in hospital having had a detached retina fixed (a real retina not an apple trademark). Something that once would have rendered me blind in that eye. Thanks to modern science and medicine, and thanks to the Australian heath system, at no cost to me.

So you could say I am keeping an eye on the group

Regards
Tony

[David Gifford]

Mark that is very true.

My own two cents worth is that TiddlyWiki is an excellent tool for indexing ideas and information, and seeing how they relate to each other, but is not really a good tool for writing. I now use Dynalist for writing, then export to StackEdit and tweak for publishing as a dynamic HTML or pdf. I use TiddlyWiki to organize my information: work info, bookmarks, links to photo gallery folders in my OneDrive, etc. Part of me wants one tool that does it all, and TiddlyWiki comes close in many ways, but it ultimately is better to find what each tool is best at and use them in tandem.

[Mohammad]

Many thanks for your comments.

So, Tiddlywiki is good for Tiddly things, may be a crowd of Tiddly things but not for big things like writing a multi chapter book or even a journal paper!

Two reasons by now

• Not strong, not comfortable for outlining
• Not smart and easy to use for long multi sections big texts
• Not capable to export high quality contents in form of epub, pdf, ... (like preparing medium to large texts e.g book)

--Mohammad

[HansWobbe]

David:

Thanks for sharing your writing tool insights.

Having followed your references to DynaList and found it to be quite useful, I couldn't resist peeking at StackEdit.  After a very few brief tests, I am curious regarding your statement that you write in DynaList and then export to StackEdit. Based on my experience with DynaList Notes, it seems to me to be easier to write in StackEdit and just use DynaList for managing dynamic lists. 

At the risk of imposing on your time, I would appreciate a bit of an expansion on your comment, since I may well be missing something.

Regards,

Hans

[David Gifford]

Happy to explain, Hans. Stackedit is great in that you can toggle everything away and write in a clear space in markdown. So I totally understand your comment.

My problems are three.

1. I found myself toggling a lot in stackedit. Toggle the format bar since no way to use keystrokes for bold and italic. Toggle the left bar to open a file. Toggle the right to access the TOC. Toggle to another part of the right for pubbing or printing etc. That was distracting. I had enough distractions like that in Tiddlywiki and didn't want more.

2. Dragging ideas to different places and zooming in and out is not as easy as in dynalist. I tend to think and write long articles hierarchically. So dynalist is quicker for that and suits my way of writing.

3. Confession time. I tend to format headers, etc, as I write, a bad habit. I am a very visual person who likes things looking nice even in the draft phase In stackedit this means a bunch of ugly ##s and **s everywhere. Made for a lot of clutter. So I decided to write in dynalist and format certain items in stackedit after the transfer process, to kind of trick/force myself not to format until after everything is written.

So, stackedit is great, but I am picky and weird. And this system so far is doing the trick.

Blessings.

[David Gifford]

I tried to write this from groups in my phone since some people take issue with the required long and religious signature on my work email. Google is telling me the send process didn't take, so I am copying and pasting it and sending by email. Would be a lot easier if I were at my lap. But I am in bed a little under the weather. Blessings.

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[Mark S.]

 Hi Tony,

Sorry to hear you're having some health problems. Hope everything turns out OK for you.

Dynalist and Scrivener are easy to pick up. Org-mode isn't too hard either as long as you stick with the basics.

In all of these, I think, you create a new entry, promote/demote it, or move it in the hierarchy -- without your fingers leaving the keyboard! You can work uninterrupted, concentrating on the text, not fiddling with the tech.

One of the weaknesses in TW is how much you have to use the mouse for. You create a new tiddler (by clicking on a button). Then you go back to the keyboard. Then you tab down and the tags appear. How to get rid of them ? Turns out you can tab and then space. But then you have to tab through all the edit fields before you can get to the text field. But you can't see which edit tool you're on (at least I can't), so what's the point? Most of the edit tools are useless unless you're already down in the text box, so wouldn't it be better to tab right into the text field? There also doesn't seem to be anyway to tab into the tag field. So you're stuck using the mouse again.

And I haven't even gotten to the part about how you're going to be breaking text into tiddlers, but the tiddlers will have to be managed with some list or contrivance if you want to view or edit them in proper sequence. Otherwise they'll just appear in the "recent" tab in whichever order they were created.

Speed. I've mentioned this before. In my heyday I could type 120wpm. More normally I could type 60wpm. Today 40 isn't impossible. But the refresh cycle on TW is constantly tripping up input, making the experience sluggish. The experience varies by platform, browser, and memory usage I think. But I don't expect to have typing problems *ever*.

There's also issues with the default edit font. The edit fonts are non-mono, and way too small on small devices. Yes, I know, I can tweak them.

These are all reasons why typing and writing on TW isn't optimal. I'm not saying impossible, just not comfortable.

-- Mark

[TonyM]

Mark,

Thanks for sharing. I can't type as fast as you and I am happy to use the mouse so I expect I do not expierience tw the same way. I do however think we should try address these issues you raise.

I need to deal with some typing lag in my 7mb + wiki, sometimes I type three words and have time to whistle a tune waiting for them to appear. As in twc I suspect hiding the sidebar from rendering may help this.

I saw a good tw outliner in my travels I will try and find it.

Regards
Tony

[HansWobbe]

@ David Gifford

Thanks for the additional insights.  I always find it useful to review the tools and workFlows of others as a way of learning how to improve my own.

I tihnk I am making good progress with StackEdit, although I was momentarily stumped by an inability to find the Synchronize "submenu".

Best wishes, Cheers and Blessings fpr the New Year.

Hans

[AdamS]

Mark and Tony,

Could you guys say a little more about the typing speed issue. I haven't encountered this yet, but have been hoping to use TW for long-form writing. So this issue troubles me. Are there any routes to fixing this issue? Or is it a product of something fundamental to the way TW works?

Best wishes,

Adam

[Mark S.]

It might work fine for you. TW performance is tied to machine performance. Maybe all my stuff is ancient ;-)

Just try TW using a fullish file (5 megs or more) on the platforms and under the conditions that you expect to be using it. If you do have an issue, the main thing to do is to separate your writing tiddlers from your viewing tiddlers. That is, keep the working TW file small, and transfer finished tiddlers to a "archival" TW that grows over time.

Good luck

-- Mark

[Mark Krieg]

I'll throw in my 2 cents...

I've never encountered a typing speed issue. I'm a fast typist and I primarily use a MacBookPro with Chrome browser. My primary TiddlyWiki is 88.7 megs. I use TW5 with node.js, however if I save it to a single .html file, although the launch is slow, I notice no lag when typing. As Mark S. commented, it probably depends on your platform (hardware and software). I also serve my node.js version frequently from a Raspberry Pi B+ with no lag!

Mark

[AdamS]

Thanks Mark and Mark. I guess I'll just keep plugging along then!

Best wishes,

Adam

[Greg Molyneux]

Mark S. (and any interested hackers)

That's EXACTLY the problem I see with using TiddlyWiki "live" as it were: trying to take notes on a live lecture or video presentation is tremendously painful in Tiddlywiki if you're trying to impose any order on the fly.  Moving from keyboard to mouse and back constantly makes the process largely unworkable with any serious time constraints.

I love TW for its organizational and relational capabilities, but for getting down information quickly, it's not my first choice.  Tools like TiddlyMap can help here if properly utilized, and there are others, but they still leave you with the same problem: lots of kb to mouse to kb movement.  This is seriously distracting when you're trying to "keep up" with a live event, or get something out of your head quickly.

That said, I do have an idea I'd like to float to anyone interested:  A killer plugin for TW would be a button that opens a new text entry window or frame.  Inside this otherwise blank frame, the user can type as fast as they are able, utilizing markdown or html (as in any standard tiddler), thus providing whatever formatting they see fit on the fly.  Yes, I know, you're thinking "you can do this with any tiddler right now, so what?"  Well, here's where things get neat (in my head at least)...

So far, the above largely mimics the general editing screen of StackEdit, so no big deal, but what if you were able to use a keystroke combination in this editor pane to insert a new tiddler framework.  So for example, if I press <CTRL+SHIFT+N> (or whatever - the choice doesn't matter much as long as it doesn't mess up anything else), this editor pane inserts something similar to the following:

created:

creator:

list:

modified:

modifier:

tags:

title:

tmap.id:

And then positions the cursor directly under these inserted fields, for data entry.  Now, the above entries were taken from a .tid file I exported from one of my tiddlers, so there's more in there than is necessary for a new tiddler, but you get the idea.  Now, I can already hear someone saying "you can do that right now by just copying this minimal framework to the clipboard", and that's true, but using a key binding would allow me to cut/paste text as I go for the editing I'm discussing, and that's important.  It'd be really impressive if the fields pasted with the custom key combination could be customized, so I could add fields as necessary for my specific wiki.

I understand, there's nothing specifically remarkable about what I'm suggesting above.  Assuming I've gone back to each of these pasted field sections shown above, and entered relevant information (title, tags, etc.), or had the information auto-populated (dates, modifier, etc.), then we have the basics for any number of individual tiddlers in text/markup form, all contained on this one edit panel.  After I'm done editing and taking notes, the magic plugin I'm thinking of would at this point allow me to press a "parse" or "finish" (or whatever) button, and it would parse the text I'd entered, separate the individual tiddlers at the appropriate points (using the populated fields listed as examples above), and create appropriate tiddlers in the TW file, properly tagged, linked, and stored as if I'd created them via the mouse interface one at a time.  Think of the time savings this would permit for live or rapid work, and still give us the organizational benefits of TW over an editor like StackEdit.

From my perspective, if you want to win users over from DynaList, StackEdit, or some of the other tools mentioned earlier in this thread, that'd be a quick (and really slick) way to squash some of the usability issues discussed here.  If anyone knows of a plugin that does this right now, please let me know, I'd love to try it out.

Regardless, I'd like to thank all the regulars here who do so much good work with this wonderful tool.

[TonyM]

Greg,

I did something similar as an exercise but it was of no value to me. In the body of any tiddler text build your multiple tiddlers, export it with a custom export and it creates the tiddlers on import. This could be developed to bypass the export to file step.

Regards
Tony

[Mark S.]

Hi Greg,

Just to clarify. You're suggesting that your keystroke insert the suggested fields as text ? I think that part could be done now inside the standard TW editor. The easiest way would be to hijack an existing key (like underscore). Not sure how easy it would be to navigate back to the starting point, so there might have to be some back-arrowing (technology is forcing me to invent new words).

So there would be a little fiddly stuff getting into the edit session, but after that you could just type away, as long as you didn't make mistakes like capitalizing tags incorrectly.

The 2nd part, parsing the text, could be done with a separate tool. I've made parsing java macros before that parsed CSV from one tiddler into a collection of tiddlers (turning Shakespeare into tiddlers), so that's the approach I would take.

Anyone else?

-- Mark

[Greg Molyneux]

Mark,

Yep, inserting these fields as text would allow me to move back (arrows, home, and end keys are my friend - and I'd never have to leave the keyboard), complete the required fields, and arrow back down to enter notes/text as desired.  If this keystroke combination could auto-populate things like the date fields, all the better, and allowing the user to choose which fields (beyond minimum required entries) are added would be a great bonus.  This is generally faster and more effective than constantly having to leave the keyboard to complete these tasks with the mouse interface for each new tiddler.

Parsing the text might be made easier with a dedicated delimiter inserted with/before the new tiddler fields: "-----BeginTiddler-----" for example.  Just a thought.

Again, this would be beneficial in my view for a specific use case - where StackEdit or Dynalist are preferred for their speed of entry in a "live" situation.  Being able to do all of these things without leaving the keyboard makes categorizing and relating this work on the fly quicker, and automatically breaking the one long page down to distinct tiddlers fits the TW data model (and benefits) better.  At the very least, inserting these fields on demand - even if you go back and fill them out later - quickly and cleanly identifies natural break points for the author.   This allows cleanup and refinement later, before breaking the long page into individual tiddlers, without having to completely re-parse the work.

There's a discussion going on in another thread right now about useful lessons from the "competition", and one of the things that strikes me there (and here) is this:  We see other programs able to do this or that, and frequently say "TiddlyWiki can do that".  In most cases, that is absolutely true - TW can do that.  But it doesn't.  At least not "out of the box".  So many of these features require someone to code the capability, or develop a given feature, or download and test a plugin (and hope it doesn't break something else), and this is a HUGE barrier to entry and use for most people.  This is why StackEdit or DynaList or similar are used so easily - they just do the things that people require for a given workflow.  It's not that they're better from a tech standpoint, but they are better suited to the needs of their users, right out of the box.

Thanks for your input, I do appreciate everyone's consideration.

[Dave]

I have the beginnings of a setup like this, but it only works if you have a node-based TW system:

I have a bash script (on Linux) that at a keystroke pops up a text dialog (big space for writing text), and it uses the first line as the tiddler title field, and anything you write immediately after that without empty lines can become part of the fields.

E.g. just now I called it up (without having my TW open in the browser) and wrote:

this is a test tiddler 2019-01-15
tags: wowser


bla bla bla

and then I opened up my TW and there it was [[this is a test tiddler 2019-01-15]] with the tag "wowser" and the text below bla bla bla.  It automatically inserts the fields "created" and "modified" both with today's date.

I'd imagine you should be able to re-program the script to allow several sections in the text to break it up into several different tiddlers.  

I don't have the time right now to actually do that (I'm a non-programmer by trade) but is this something you'd want me to post for you? (depends on if you have linux, and also you'd need the program YAD (yet another dialog) for it to work.

- Dave P

[Dave]

P.S., this very discussion topic  is the reason I'm so happy to have found Bob, simply because I can now use bash to manipulate tiddlers (text files) at will (as I'm more proficient at bash than javascript)

[Greg Molyneux]

Dave,

I use Linux all day at work, and regularly at home, so I would be interested in seeing the bash script you've got, if you don't mind posting it.  I think I've heard you mention it in previous threads as well.  YAD wouldn't be a problem, as it's widely available.

I haven't looked into Bob yet, but I'm excited to check it out - it seems to have a lot of potential.

Even with all of the above capability, this doesn't solve the problem for a wider user base.  Including the capabilities we're discussing here in a common (and widely available) packaging is what will expand the TW user base.  While I can use Linux, install and test plugins, and set up Bob, most general users aren't going to want to do such things.  Honestly, I don't want to hack these things together either - I'd much rather have a project built on Tiddlywiki with capabilities like we're discussing ready to go, right out of the box, built by people who know what they're doing (definitely not me).  Maybe packaged with an updated TiddlyDesktop.  Still, beggars can't be choosers, and until I break down and learn to develop what I want, I'll be happy with the unrealized capability of TW, and the ability to cobble together something that mostly works for myself.  Or I'll use StackEdit, DynaList, Trilium, or Scrivener where they make more sense.

thanks for sharing your code, I'm interested in seeing what it does.

[Dave]

I'll attach the file here.

Note: this is an adaptation of an ancient bash file for a "file per todo system" I used to use, and I honestly am not totally sure of the logic of everything in it.

The only comment I added now was the one about the date format for TW.

[Greg Molyneux]

Very cool, I'll dig through it when I get a chance.  It's always interesting to see how different people solve similar problems.

thanks,

Greg

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[TonyM]

Greg,

Bob has a single exe install and run, like othere servers it is based on node and maintains each tiddler in its own file.

Regards
Tony

[HC Haase]

@Greg Molyneux

There was a plugin  that had some of the functionality. However I can't remember the name. something like fast note /qiuck note ore someting.

When you created a new tiddler you was presented with one input field. the first line of the field was the title, the second tags separated by comma, the third tiddler body. But It was only one text field where you could just use up/down to navigate.

[Greg Molyneux]

TonyM:  Yep, it should be pretty easy to try out, I understand it can be installed as a plugin also, but the exe seems a much simpler approach.

HC: I'll check around and see if I can find it, thanks.  It'd be a start anyway.

[Greg Davis]

Looked through some of my old notes and think I found "them". FastNewTiddler which seemed to evolve into QuickTid which became rQuickTid. Search on those names and you find a couple dozen references.

Don't know their current status or if they are still compatible.

[TW5 Workflow] The Stealth NewHere Method! PLEASE READ - https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/Xm5SsHCer6E/IGdHpq5fp_gJ

Presenting: QuickTid - https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/05hAZCr-k-w/Qq4zuE4WIAAJ

Presenting: rQuickTid - attention-free note taking - https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/ZYg14WX-1mE/i1g-hOfUAgAJ

[Greg Molyneux]

Greg D:  Thank you for digging into this, I'll check them out and see what shakes loose.

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[Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/]

Thanks for alerting me to rQuickTid. I hadn't seen that variation. I just added it to the TiddlyWiki toolmap. I hope you use that to help you with yout digging

https://dynalist.io/d/zUP-nIWu2FFoXH-oM7L7d9DM

[Greg Molyneux]

I just tried rQuickTid: it is SO CLOSE!

In this one extension, you can very quickly create a new tiddler, with the first two lines being title, and tags (enclosed in [[]] for multi-word tags) respectively.  The third line on is the content of the tiddler, and behaves like regular tiddler entry, markdown and all.

This solution doesn't completely remove the mouse click, keyboard entry, mouse click tango that Mark S. mentioned some ways up this discussion, but it DRAMATICALLY cuts down on the problem.

Using this code as a starting point, and adding the capability of the plugin to detect a delimiter ("-----NewTiddler-----" for example) in the text, would make this plugin nearly perfect.  One could then start with the title and tag field lines, type the tiddler content underneath, insert a delimiter line (preferably with a specific keystroke), then start new title and tag field lines, and enter the text for a 2nd tiddler.  Rinse and repeat until the note taking session is over, and click one of the "add tiddler" button options in the note window, and have all the newly entered tiddlers parsed, created, and related as appropriate.

The only thing that would make this plugin better (besides what's described above) would be the ability to customize the fields (aside from title and tag) that can be inserted for each tiddler.

Thanks to Mat (The TWaddler) for it's creation, Greg D for finding it, HC Haase for mentioning it, Dave for indexing it on his fantastic toolmap, and everyone in the original discussion of the plugin for helping it progress.  I'd love to see someone with more talent than I possess to pick this thing up and flesh it out as described above.

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