Please advise: what is the clean and simple method of having a multiline note for a tiddler?

[Mohammad]

I tried to have a note for tiddlers tagged with slide or someTag.

Several options available 

1. Have a child tiddler (tagged with parent) and named parent-note
   
2. Have a field named `note`
3. Have textarea bounded to a field
4. Have a textarea bounded to an index in a data tiddler

Each of these has some pitfalls and prevent to have a clean solution yet simple to use!

Pitfalls:

1. Very simple but you have two separate tiddler and keeping them with together is rather problematic
   
2. This is very simple, but fields only support single line edit box
3. Versatile and bounded to tiddler but you have a text area and a field with the same content and it is confusing
4. May be the better method, but reading and writting from a bounded text area into data tiddler is not simple

The first and second method are trivial. The third method is discussed here https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/iXAi7RISKGc/XLgGlFyJAQAJ and the solution was given by Mat.

A revised version is attached and a demo is available on: http://addnote.tiddlyspot.com/

Please advise!

[TonyM]

Mohammad,

Some ideas and "history"

The simple way to do this is to show a tiddlername-note title/link on every tiddler, if clicked you open and/or create the note, a note is present if the tiddlername-note title is not in italics. this however does not update if the title changes.

In the past I would have used an additional tiddler, tagged with the current, and named with the suffix "tiddlername-note", in this case renaming the tiddler would update the tag in the note tiddler even if that note tiddler has the old title in its name. 

Do look at the comments plugin in the 5.1.18 Pre-release, depending on your needs that may be what you want, no further work. See also the issue thread on GitHub 

Now, If I were building this I may create a TiddlerButton that creates a $:/notes/tiddlername-notes and places this name in a field on the tiddler called notes 

Then in the view template if the notes field exists provide a link/button at the bottom of the tiddler, and/or a toggle to display/edit them inline.

I expect I may also allow notes-anyname fields so more than one note can be created on a given tiddler.

Regards

Tony

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 2:34:52 AM UTC+10, Mohammad wrote:

I tried to have a note for tiddlers tagged with slide or someTag.

Several options available 

1. Have a child tiddler (tagged with parent) and named parent-note
   

1. Have a filed named `note`
2. Have textarea bounded to a filed

1. Have a textarea bounded to an index in a data tiddler

Each of these has some pitfalls and prevent to have a clean solution yet simple to use!

Pitfalls:

1. Very simple but you have two separate tiddler and keeping them with together is rather problematic
   

1. This is very simple, but fileds only support single line edit box
2. Versatile and bounded to tiddler but you have a text area and a filed with the same content and it is confusing

1. May be the better method, but reading and writting from a bounded text area into data tiddler is not simple

[TonyM]

Mohammad,

On a side note. and with all due respect, Your extremely common typo or misspelling of the word "field" as "filed" would be ok to adapt to, but I now find myself doing the same misspelling more and more often.

The following may help you if you choose to correct this common mistake.

The correct spelling would be voiced as "Feel-ed"

The incorrect spelling as voiced as "File-ed"

Field is the same word as a "Field in the country" where you can choose if it has sheep, cows or kangaroos in it. as you can choose in tiddly wiki the value in a field.

Filed is the word you would use to put away an electronic file, or if you had used a file - A file is a tool used to remove fine amounts of material from a workpiece. It is common in woodworking, metalworking, and other similar trade and hobby tasks."

Otherwise, thanks so much for all your valuable contributions.

:)

Tony

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 2:34:52 AM UTC+10, Mohammad wrote:

I tried to have a note for tiddlers tagged with slide or someTag.

Several options available 

1. Have a child tiddler (tagged with parent) and named parent-note
   

1. Have a filed named `note`
2. Have textarea bounded to a filed

1. Have a textarea bounded to an index in a data tiddler

Each of these has some pitfalls and prevent to have a clean solution yet simple to use!

Pitfalls:

1. Very simple but you have two separate tiddler and keeping them with together is rather problematic
   

1. This is very simple, but fileds only support single line edit box
2. Versatile and bounded to tiddler but you have a text area and a filed with the same content and it is confusing

1. May be the better method, but reading and writting from a bounded text area into data tiddler is not simple

[Mohammad]

Tony!

 Thank you for your comments. I have seen comments plugin and some others from people in this forum. But what I need is a simple one part extra explanation about the tiddler to be used!

The purpose is to have slide and slide notes not more!

The idea with $:/notes/.... can be confusing because when you export a tiddler you should be able to export its note too!

By the way I think I should carefully study the code behind comments plugin in 5.1.18-pre may be I can use part of that code and adopt to my case.

Thank you again for your time and idea!

Best

Mohammad

[Mohammad]

Thank you Tony for your extensive explanation on field and filed. I knew the meaning very well.

The problem is as I wrote from my tablet and use virtual keyboard with word and spelling suggestion!
When coding TW will not forgive it and you have to use the correct spelling.

No worry.

Best

Mohammad

[Mark S.]

Ideas ...

  5. Have a list field with the names of attached note tiddlers.

That way you can have more than one note per slide, and not pollute tag-space.

But then you have the same problem as #1 -- packaging. Assuming that you want to export a slide and it's notes. I'm curious who you want to export to ?

Keeping related tiddlers is always a problem.You could use PMario's bundler plugin. You could have a small button in your slide template that creates an export bundle with the name of the current tiddler and it's note tiddlers. The bundle appears in the bundler tab of the sidebar where they can then be exported.

-- Mark

[Mohammad]

Hello Mark!

 Thank you, yes I thought the same to have a customized export button!

By the way I learned from comments pluging in pre-release 5.1.18 how I can have my note edit box in the view mode not in the edit mode.

You asked to whom you want to export? It is good to export a slideshow with its all slides and notes as json file as archive, and distribute for example to students!

But as you said there is always problem to keep everything related with together!

I will have a look at PMario bundler plugin!

Mohammad

[Mark S.]

I haven't seen the comments plugin, so pardon me if this idea is unoriginal. It occurs to me that you could have a "packer" button that takes all tiddlers related to a current tiddler, and packs them into fields. Then when you export the tiddler, all the supporting tiddlers go with it. Later, an unpacker button would extract the fields.

-- Mark

[Mohammad]

Hi Mark!

 No, your idea is different from what introduced in comments plugin!

This is the comments plugin

https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Ftiddlywiki%2Fcomments

Right now, I am working on method #3 as it is a simple one for me! 

Mohammad

[TonyM]

Mark,

Actually it is an almost original idea and very creative,  history demonstrates a lot of good ideas "have their time" and multiple "originally discovered ideas"  can be similar. 

I have being corresponding the Jeremy on the comments plugin and hinted at such an idea. I expect you would be interested in that thread https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/3378

I have already created a way to use comments for tiddler review with an accept and reject button. the idea is (set the user name on the wiki) I apply comments to tiddlywiki.com tiddlers then export them and send them to someone, they import them and read them along side each tiddler, to which they apply updating that tiddler as they go and indicating accept or reject. You could then export them and send them back to the contributor.

To me having a packer would allow us to deliver (in comments) new tiddlers as well, perhaps a new tiddler referenced by the current tiddler or using the wikiwide comments also in the comments plugin.

I do believe this packer plugin "embed tiddler in tiddler" can be an independent tool and would be happy to help build it.

Regards

Tony

and a related one https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/3385

[TonyM]

Mark,

I would also add, designed correctly a packed would have the unpack "button" built in and be tolerant of generating multiple copies. The content need not be in a field but hidden in a \define 

partial code to illustrate

\define unpack(packedtiddlertitle newname)
<$set name=defaultname value=$newname$ emptyValue="originalname">
Button that Calls packedtiddlertitle(newname) to create the tiddler
</$set>
\end
\define packedtiddlertitle(newname)
all it takes to recreate the packed tiddler
\end
\define 2ndpackedtiddlertitle(newname)
all it takes to recreate the packed tiddler
\end
<<unpack packedtiddlertitle [optional-new name]>>
<<unpack 2ndpackedtiddlertitle [optional-new name]>>

People could package and use this for tiddler templates and new tiddler creation.

Regards

Tony

[Mark S.]

I was thinking that there must be code in TW to convert tiddlers into JSON. So it would be possible to convert all related tiddlers (it would be up to the user to decide the relationships) into fields. Like _assoc1, _assoc2, etc. Or maybe one big field.

The question is whether it would be any improvement over just using PMario's bundler plugin ??

-- Mark

[Mohammad]

Mark,

 I used the note field to add slide notes to my slide tiddlers! So, I can use the export macro included in the core!
The note is added using a text area in the view mode and it stored in the note field! So, when I switch to edit mode I have only the note field and in view mode I have a slider to show/hide the text area to add/edit note!

Mohammad

[TonyM]

Mark,

I would be looking at a package that perhaps even uses the bundler plugin to create json files but the key to distributing them is if no plugin needs installing.

We have json files out there, we can import them and they become tiddlers, surely we could copy and paste the json file content into a single tiddler. Then we should somehow be able to ask this to be extracted.

Perhaps an importer and exporter pair to move between tiddlers and single tiddler json files within a wiki. OK, that will be a plugin but it sounds like a core plugin to me rather than an optional plugin especially since I would expect it to simply reuse existing code.

Regards

Tony

[TonyM]

Mohammad,

Good to hear. I just assumed you needed a lot more than a single field. Is it working for multiline?

Regards

Tony

[Mohammad]

Hello Tony!

 Yes it works for me. I have bounded a text area in the view mode with a field called `note`.

Amazingly, what I enter in the multiline text area in any combination is stored in the single line note field and then I can transclude  and wikify it.

I myself did not expect to be able to use a bounded single line filed. The text area is shown/hidden using the reveal widget.

Mohammad

[TonyM]

Mohammad,

Would you mind sharing the code snipt that edits the note field as a multi-line text field. I would assume it was using the edittextWidget ?

In return see my attached tiddler bundle that creates notes using a subTiddler called tiddlername/notes and while it is not currently open to a tiddler title change it is easy to create a filter to export all notes along with a set of tiddlers.

See 

$:/PSaT/tiddler-notes for more info

Place  <<tiddler-notes>> in any tiddler or within a tiddler tagged for the view template

Regards

Tony

[Mohammad]

Hello Tony!

 I uploaded the code to http://addnote.tiddlyspot.com/

A short description has been added to show how the code works.

Hope you find it useful!

Mohammad

[TonyM]

Thanks Mohammad,

Quite simple really.

I see it looses its line breaks if edited in the default field editor.

I will add such a field to my edit-fields tool. Thanks

Tony

[Mohammad]

That's true Tony! I don't know how it works behind the scene!

I tried to hide the note filed to prevent user accidentally edit the note filed but I was not successful!

By the way it works!

Mohammad

[TonyM]

Mohammad,

There is a way to hide fields from the default edit, we know it already happens, but driving that tool to edit it the way we want would be better.

Regards
Tony

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mohammad

Mohammad: I uploaded the code to http://addnote.tiddlyspot.com/

 

A very useful tool!

I have many comments on it if you would like them?

I think this could be a step towards a utility, a plugin, many would use.

But I don't want to burden you with excess work. So let me know first before I do that.

I will make specific comments next on it as it is.

Best wishes
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mohammad wrote:

I tried to hide the note filed to prevent user accidentally edit the note filed but I was not successful!

UPDATE: This issue is addressed so you can ignore this message. Go to: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/3H2mJCm9eQE/

There probably is a way. But I'm not aware how you could selectively hide a specific field with content. You COULD hide ALL fields easily. But that is not so good because its too limiting.

FYI this is what the rendered code looks like ...

As a temporary measure, till how to do this gets solved, you could enter at the top of every note a message that would be seen in edit mode but not in the Popup ...


... that is likely already a bit complex for a naive user to see, but its better than nothing.

Best wishes
Josiah

<!-- *** ONLY EDIT THIS FROM VIEW MODE *** -->

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mohammad wrote:

http://addnote.tiddlyspot.com/

I am intrigued how you got the note: field to store line-breaks.

How did you do that? :-)

I can see the field content is very fragile--meaning you edit in the normal editor just one character in the note: field and on save all line-breaks are removed.

So its important to help you get advice on how to hide that field or make it not editable other than via "view mode".

Best wishes
Josiah

[TonyM]

Folks,

Just keep in mind modified and created and the modified and created by fields are already hidden, or not displayed. A method exists and I have seen it before but need to revisit it.

If nothing else you can update the current edit display to hide named fields.

Regards
Tony

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Right. Code is needed to make that good comment useful. I searched but could not get clear how to do it.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Try the following in the "filter" tab of advanced search:

[all[shadows+tiddlers]prefix[$:/config/EditTemplateFields/Visibility/]]

Fields are hidden from the editor if the tiddler with the title $:/config/EditTemplateFields/Visibility/ plus the name of the field contains "hide". For example, $:/config/EditTemplateFields/Visibility/title

The implementation details can be seen in the shadow tiddler $:/core/ui/EditTemplate/fields

Best wishes

Jeremy

--

Jeremy Ruston

jer...@jermolene.com

https://jermolene.com

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[TonyM]

Thanks Jeremy

I knew it was in your head.

Tony

[Ste Wilson]

A little late to this discussion and I appreciate it does something very different to what you have created but there is also stickynotes.tiddlyspot.com for post it like notes.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Jeremy

Sometimes I think you are a genius of foresight.

Josiah

[Mohammad]

Hello Josiah,

 I use this small code to add note to slides in slideshow (I mean the tiddlyshow)

By the way I welcome your comments and if I can I would be happy to implement them.

I also recommend to take a look at https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/

A comments plugin has been introduced there with many capabilities, but I cannot use it in my app, as

I think note is different from comment in my case!

Best

Mohammad

[Mohammad]

Josiah,

 With the AMAZING solution from Jeremy I think, now this small code is enough useful to be used for adding notes to tiddler.

 I think it is also better to add a button to tiddler toolbar instead on having the note icon at the bottom of tiddler!

I updated the code to hide the note filed. Look at http://addnote.tiddlyspot.com

Mohammad

[Mohammad]

Many thanks Jeremy!

 There is still a magic! How the result of text area (multi lines contains many different TW markups) is stored in a single line filed?

Mohammad

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mohammad wrote:

https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/

Its very good. It supports simple threading. BUT it does not do what your approach makes easy--a note in a field of the CURRENT Tiddler. Being able to put a note into the current Tiddler, not a child Tiddler, is very good because it often makes sense NOT to have any more Tiddlers than you really need.

There are design issues I could talk about. But, basically, I think your approach is relevant to many situations and its very good to see that solution working.

J.

[Mohammad]

Josiah,

 Thank you! I would be happy to hear your comments!

Mohammad

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mohammad

If you want to move this towards a plugin anyone could use ...

1 -- Since the notes system is invoked through a tag... either change the tag to something generic like "doNote" or allow the user to define it in a configuration Tiddler.  Limiting it to "slide" now makes it too narrow.

2 -- Give your tool a TITLE. I suggest "doNote", but anything you want will do the job.

3 -- At the moment the INTERFACE mixes a text button ("Note") with an icon (edit). I think it would be better that both were ICONS. The reason is that "Note" as a word here could be misleading. What it actually is "additional info." I think another icon could work better. Also you avoid linguistic issues that not everyone speaks English by using icons.

4 -- This is a DESIGN issue. I notice your icon for "Edit Note" has some blue in it. In the context of standard TW everything is monochrome. I think it would harmonise better to have all icons in monochrome.

These are just thoughts. For your consideration.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Mohammad]

Many thanks Josiah!

I will try to implement these comments! all of them are useful!

By the way its name is addNote right now and as my focus is on Tiddlyshow I customized it in the core of tiddlyshow code!

BUT I will also modify the code in addnote.tiddlyspot.com

There is an issue for revealing the note! I used a tooltip popup at the top of `Note` text! when the tiddler is very close to top edge of screen, part of note window is not shown and hidden. It needs a mechanism to detect the best position for revealing the note (top, or bottom). I understood this needs some JS while I always tried to use the TW core!

So, I failed to resolve it.

One way is to reveal the note as part of tiddler body! The other is to use a separate window or tab in browser!

BUT the good one in my opinion is a dynamic local popup!

Thank you again

Mohammad

[Mohammad]

 - Monochrome icon has been added

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Good. That icon better matches the "house style."

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mohammad wrote:

It needs a mechanism to detect the best position for revealing the note (top, or bottom). I understood this needs some JS while I always tried to use the TW core!

So, I failed to resolve it.

I see that issue ... IF the Tiddler is near the top the popup gets cut ...

There will be a mass of CSS solutions to this. But, in my crude thinking, till you get a full answer, show it BELOW, not above, the "Note." I think users adjust to "down" much better than "up", which feels like going backwards.

J.

.

[Mohammad]

Yes, but in my own case, tiddlers or slides occupy the whole screen so for me the top position is the best.
I think the full answer is a dynamic positioning.
Top or bottom depends to the distance of Note from top or bottom edge of screen.

Mohammad

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Sorry Mohammad I forgot this is all in the context of a whole-screen Presentation.

That likely makes the CSS easier. You might want to look at positioning the popup using the VIEWPORT as the context, rather than local to "Note".

Best wishes
Josiah

Mohammad wrote:

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Josiah, Mohammad,

Its very good. It supports simple threading. BUT it does not do what your approach makes easy--a note in a field of the CURRENT Tiddler. Being able to put a note into the current Tiddler, not a child Tiddler, is very good because it often makes sense NOT to have any more Tiddlers than you really need.

This isn’t intended to be prescriptive, but my own experience over the years of working with TW5 has been the gradual but emphatic realisation that things actually work much better if you embrace the proliferation of tiddlers. Right at the start there were a number of features that were intended to avoid that proliferation (in particular data tiddlers), but I’ve found over and over that one gets much more flexibility by exploding data structures into the smallest semantic units.

A case in point here is that applying a comment as a field on a tiddler means that the tiddler itself must be modified in order to make a comment on it.  That’s problematic in a multi-user situation when the tiddler belongs to somebody else. It also makes it impossible to apply a comment to a shadow tiddler. The technique doesn’t naturally extend to threaded comments either.

Meanwhile, the apparent advantage of keeping the comment within the originating tiddler is that it keeps things neat and tidy, with the comment bundled together with the original tiddler. But I think that’s pretty illusory: ones data is already conveniently bundled together by virtue of being in a TiddlyWiki.

Best wishes

Jeremy

[Mohammad]

Hello Jeremy!

 Thank you very much for your comments, I understood the note code for making comments is not good because of some technical reasons.

I really appreciate to advise me in the following case!

 

- I have set of tiddlers all tagged with say myTag

 - This set is called a slideshow named myTag

 - Each tiddler customized using css and TW codes and occupy the whole screen, I call each of these tiddler a slide

 - The author (who created the slides) needs to have some author-notes for some slides to be used at presentation time. This feature is available in Powerpoint from Microsoft and Impress from Libre Office

 * Now what is the best approach in TiddlyWiki to have author-notes?

   i. a note field in any slide to store author notes

  ii. a child tiddler to store the author-notes and named parent-note

 iii . a data tiddler to store all notes regarding this slideshow (e.g slideshow-notes). Indexes here are slide names (tiddler names) and notes are stored as values

iv. or .... what do you propose?

Best

Mohammad

 

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Mohammad

On 15 Aug 2018, at 18:57, Mohammad <mohammad...@gmail.com> wrote:

I really appreciate to advise me in the following case!

 

- I have set of tiddlers all tagged with say myTag

 - This set is called a slideshow named myTag

 - Each tiddler customized using css and TW codes and occupy the whole screen, I call each of these tiddler a slide

 - The author (who created the slides) needs to have some author-notes for some slides to be used at presentation time. This feature is available in Powerpoint from Microsoft and Impress from Libre Office

 * Now what is the best approach in TiddlyWiki to have author-notes?

   i. a note field in any slide to store author notes

  ii. a child tiddler to store the author-notes and named parent-note

 iii . a data tiddler to store all notes regarding this slideshow (e.g slideshow-notes). Indexes here are slide names (tiddler names) and notes are stored as values

iv. or .... what do you propose?

I’d recommend using a separate tiddler for the author notes, perhaps linking notes to their parent slide via the “list” field (along the lines of the comment plugin). That arrangement would allow multiple notes per slide, and for notes to apply to more than one slide.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

[Mohammad]

Many thanks Jeremy!

Best

Mohammad

[TonyM]

Mohammad,

I am not sure it was covered in this long thread, but I just found something you may want to know;

If you create a tiddler $:/config/EditTemplateFields/Visibility/fieldname where fieldname is your multi-line field you want to hide from the field edit section in edit mode, and place hide in its text field. It will no longer appear in edit mode. This will stop people editing it there and breaking the line breaks.

I expect you moved on from that but FYI

Regards

Tony

On Thursday, 9 August 2018 02:34:52 UTC+10, Mohammad wrote:

I tried to have a note for tiddlers tagged with slide or someTag.

Several options available 

1. Have a child tiddler (tagged with parent) and named parent-note
   
2. Have a field named `note`
3. Have textarea bounded to a field
4. Have a textarea bounded to an index in a data tiddler

Each of these has some pitfalls and prevent to have a clean solution yet simple to use!

Pitfalls:

1. Very simple but you have two separate tiddler and keeping them with together is rather problematic
   
2. This is very simple, but fields only support single line edit box
3. Versatile and bounded to tiddler but you have a text area and a field with the same content and it is confusing
4. May be the better method, but reading and writting from a bounded text area into data tiddler is not simple

The first and second method are trivial. The third method is discussed here https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/iXAi7RISKGc/XLgGlFyJAQAJ and the solution was given by Mat.

A revised version is attached and a demo is available on: http://addnote.tiddlyspot.com/

Please advise!