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On 28 Dec 2020, at 09:54, Jeremy Ruston <jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote:
Since we last discussed this topic, I've been increasingly thinking that we should indeed make plans to change the name.
Just my thoughts. Though I'd be interested to hear more on potential other ideas.Best wishesTT
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Perhaps worth clarifying that "change the name" at its simplest might mean renaming the current TiddlyWiki 5 project to Xememex as of a particular version number. We'd try to maintain backwards compatibility as we normally do, but just lose the terms "TiddlyWiki" and "tiddler".There are other approaches. We could fork the good parts of TiddlyWiki 5.x into a new project called Xememex that is less constrained by backwards compatibility (eg. targeting more modern JavaScript engines). Both the TiddlyWiki 5 and Xememex projects would proceed independently, allowing end users to defer or avoid switching over.
Thinking about the details that would need resolving, it's clear that the hard part is actually losing the word "tiddler", because we use it so ubiquitously for widget, attribute and variable names.Best wishesJeremy
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There are other approaches. We could fork the good parts of TiddlyWiki 5.x into a new project called Xememex that is less constrained by backwards compatibility (eg. targeting more modern JavaScript engines). Both the TiddlyWiki 5 and Xememex projects would proceed independently, allowing end users to defer or avoid switching over.
Every time this topic comes up we end up going round in circles with people proposing new names. Let’s try to avoid that, it just gets in the way of the much more complex discussion that we actually need about why and how we want to do this.
If xememex is the only alternative, then stick with the current name. At least you never have to explain how to pronounce it or spell it.
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Jeremy Ruston wrote:Every time this topic comes up we end up going round in circles with people proposing new names. Let’s try to avoid that, it just gets in the way of the much more complex discussion that we actually need about why and how we want to do this.Fair enuff (but the thread title certainly invites for this).
Could you elaborate more on what "...that is less constrained by backwards compatibility" means? To start off, do you (merely) mean it as an opportunity to make a one time correction of some past mistakes
or do you mean a change in philosophy, i.e to let go of the "backward compatibility"-effort with a version that is more open to continuous backward breaking changes (like most other software is)?
<:-)
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As appealing as this sounds, I just don't think that as a small community we have the resources to support both, unless the intention would be for TiddlyWiki 5 to only receive bug fix updates.
As you mention in a later reply, the real challenge is replacing the word tiddler. I remember trying this in Classic and it wasn't easy then and is probably even harder now with all the widget attributes etc. Which makes me wonder if this would really be the best use of our time and resources?
Cheers,
Saq
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In other words, I think TiddlyWiki 5 is ripe for such a thorough internal overhaul that changing the names might not be as much of a practical consideration as it would be if we had to maintain backwards compatibility.
As you mention in a later reply, the real challenge is replacing the word tiddler. I remember trying this in Classic and it wasn't easy then and is probably even harder now with all the widget attributes etc. Which makes me wonder if this would really be the best use of our time and resources?
That is indeed one of the critical questions.Over the years we've had consistent feedback on the name "TiddlyWiki" that ranges between:* I don't care about the name, it's just a meaningless string of letters* I think the name is fine, it's distinctive, and has few false positives when Googling* I think the name diminishes TiddlyWiki* I think the name is a thinly veiled obscenity
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I couldn't find if this topic has already been re-hashed this decade. But I was wondering if there is any value in discussing alternative names to the "Tiddly" part of the TiddlyWIki project. This project has been around for so long that renaming / rebranding would be quite an effort. And the Tiddly part is unique within programming projects, which helps to eliminate false positives when searching for sample code.I am an American living on the Pacific Coast, so my linguistic preferences are definitely different from Jeremy's. But just saying the word 'Tiddly' out loud feels like trying to get people from certain Germany dialects to say the word "Squirrel." It always feels forced to me.A joke by Lt. Commander Data on Star Trek the Next Generation was about someone mispronouncing 'kidneys' as 'kiddleys.' We the store keeper corrected him, the customer contested, "No, I said 'kiddleys.' Diddle I?"From just a project standpoint, the word 'Tiddly' is trying to focus on the "small amount" of data or code that should be in any one unit. This way many units can be combined in various ways to satisfy different needs. Although it is intended to produce a Wiki-like user interface with deep linking and back references, the way you go about it is by breaking up large pieces of information into re-usable components.If your goal is to create "tiddlers," then using a TiddlyWiki application would be a natural fit. If the goal of most people is to make small units of re-usable components, then perhaps a different prefix would make it more appealing. Again, this is just a personal opinion and not a slight on the TiddlyWiki project as a whole, which I have been using frequently everyday.There have been two alternate words kicking around in my head lately. TipWiki or DotWiki.'Tip' has a very similar double meaning to Tiddly - drunk people can be 'tiddly' or 'tipsy', and just the 'tip' of something or a 'tiddly' amount of something is quite small. There is an additional English meaning of 'tip' to mean 'a small note or suggestion.' That seems to be actually the point of TiddlyWiki: Make lots of small notes that can be re-combined as pieces of many different larger pages. 'Tiddlers' would become 'Tips', and a single 'tiddler' would become a single 'tip.' Phonetically, it feels a lot easier to talk about.'Dot' has an inherent meaning of 'smallest possible mark or amount.' This would again drive home the concept of making the smallest possible content for any one unit of information. Unfortunately, dots are already associated with the 'dot notation' of Object Oriented Programming, so that could make it a little confusing as to the overall goal for people with software development backgrounds.The goal of renaming the project would be to push the desire for "smallness" of the individual unit using a more standard English word. Please forgive me if I am pushing anyone's buttons here. This topic was just on my mind. Thank you for your time.
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/Mike
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It would be interesting if people posted their approximate geographical location, where they grew up, and what the word "tiddler" suggests to them.
<snip> Tiddlywiki, is a development studio which has a high level scripting language with many components (official /third party) to build different apps/tools based
on the web technology (HTML5+JS+CSS). Examples are: TiddlyResearch, TiddlyShow, Projectify, ...
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As appealing as this sounds, I just don't think that as a small community we have the resources to support both, unless the intention would be for TiddlyWiki 5 to only receive bug fix updates.I think that would be the default, yes, unless somebody wanted to pick up the development more purposefully.As you mention in a later reply, the real challenge is replacing the word tiddler. I remember trying this in Classic and it wasn't easy then and is probably even harder now with all the widget attributes etc. Which makes me wonder if this would really be the best use of our time and resources?That is indeed one of the critical questions.Over the years we've had consistent feedback on the name "TiddlyWiki" that ranges between:* I don't care about the name, it's just a meaningless string of letters* I think the name is fine, it's distinctive, and has few false positives when Googling* I think the name diminishes TiddlyWiki* I think the name is a thinly veiled obscenityThat last category is undoubtedly a minority, but it's a very consistently and forcefully expressed opinion when it does come up. I used to think that view said more about the people holding it than anything else. But the trouble is that I'm too close to the thing: the name "TiddlyWiki" is my little piece of wordplay, and I'm attached to it. I think maybe that might hold for many of us who have invested time and effort in the project. So I have to pay attention to feedback that comes from a different perspective, because I'm never going to be able to assume that perspective myself.The other consideration in all of this is my desire to modernise the design of TW5 and establish a new baseline for backwards compatibility. After 10 years, it's becoming increasingly limiting to live with some of the early design decisions of TW5 (a lot of which are pretty arcane - for example, "tiddlerfield" modules). I believe we would make faster and more decisive progress if we lost some of that baggage.The idea of modernising the core relates to the naming change because another bit of feedback that I received back in 2011-13 was that it was a mistake to reuse the name TiddlyWiki for the new project. Many people felt that it was unnecessarily confusing to have two distinct products with the same name, and struggled with my perspective that TWC and TW5 were different versions of the same thing.So, what I learned from all of the above is that names for communal things are tricky. People have strong opinions because they feel they have a stake. The thing that is particularly tricky is trying to change what an existing name means if the previous meaning is entrenched in the community.In other words, I think TiddlyWiki 5 is ripe for such a thorough internal overhaul that changing the names might not be as much of a practical consideration as it would be if we had to maintain backwards compatibility.Best wishesJeremy.Cheers,
Saq
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Re-reading this message (and studiously avoiding making any suggestions for new names) the idea of "targeting more modern JavaScript engines" makes me wonder about the question of "how modern a browser do you need to have to have a working Tiddlywiki?"With regards to minimum browsers for TW5, according to the web site it's "Safari version 6" (from 2012!) IE version 10 (also from 2012!) and "all recent" Chrome, Firefox, and Firefox for Android, whatever that means, but presumably going back comparably far. So right now TW5 is usable in browsers that go about 8 years back, which is nice. And TWC support obviously goes back way further than that.How big a change in "you need this recent a browser" would you think was acceptable in a "Xememex" project?
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