TiddlyWiki on HackADay.com

[bimlas]

A wave started which could make TiddlyWiki more and more famous. Now we might need to make it really user-friendly, so that new people can easily get over the initial difficulties and stay with Tiddly.

https://hackaday.com/2020/02/14/it-aint-over-til-the-paperwork-is-done-test-driving-tiddlywiki/

[bimlas]

Either way, TonyM is right about publishing at least one StarterPack edition alongside Empty, which contains at least one ToC macro, if nothing else. I think half of the newcomers are scared that creating a table of contents is so "difficult" and they think about the difficulties they will face in the future.

[PMario]

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 8:01:32 PM UTC+1, bimlas wrote:

Either way, TonyM is right about publishing at least one StarterPack edition alongside Empty, which contains at least one ToC macro, if nothing else. I think half of the newcomers are scared that creating a table of contents is so "difficult" and they think about the difficulties they will face in the future.

Yea,

And it shouldn't even contain the <div> wrapper. IMO it should be <<basic-toc>> or <<basic-toc "my-root-name">>  done.

IMO the name "basic" indicates, that there are more possibilities. So if a user is interested, they can dig deeper.

May be empty.html should have a GettingsStarted lower section like this:

Would you like to use a Table of Contents in the Sidebar?

 - If user selects yes ... we create one

 - If the user selects no ... we remove it if it exists or do nothing

Would you like to show the Home button?

 - yes ... no

Would you like to use Journals

 - yes .. no

Would you like to use a basic ToDo List

 - yes .. no

...... I'll try to create a PR till tomorrow.

have fun!

mario

-m

[PMario]

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 9:21:46 PM UTC+1, PMario wrote:

May be empty.html should have a GettingsStarted lower section like this:

May be it could be a plugin named basics, that can be removed once the user doesn't need it anymore.

-m

[A Gloom]

How about a bastic serup tiddler that display with the default GettingStarted shadow tiddler, potentionally have it also a individual sidebar tab (along with Open, Recent, etc) that once done with can be removed from the sidebar tabs and incorporated into the Tools tab.  This tiddler can also open Control Panel to the main settings customization tab.  That's how I would do it : P

[Qalisto]

!! Wise suggestion.  TW as often presented is intimidating to more than a few.

=== > Q < ===========================================

[TonyM]

Folks

I have always believed there should be an empty edition but once one knows tiddlywiki and wants to build your own an empty edition is a great place to start.

I do believe a standard edition with just a little more is needed to make the introduction to tiddlywiki a little smoother. I have listed what I think should be there in the past but this can be decided as a community. The standard could change a little more rapidly and by popular demand.

I agree if the difference between standard and empty were packaged or documented with selective removal options even those with the standard could revert to empty, perhaps the standard could contain the big green button to generate empty.html.

Personaly I believe this continues to be a barrier to the community building a better entry point into the tiddlywiki platform buy only ever "selling" the basic no frills model that does not help adoption or exploration for new users.

Regards
Tony

[PMario]

On Sunday, February 16, 2020 at 6:12:58 AM UTC+1, TonyM wrote:

Folks

I have always believed there should be an empty edition but once one knows tiddlywiki and wants to build your own an empty edition is a great place to start.

See: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/H6Gmby9gvYg

I did a new GettingStarted tiddler as a proposal for empty.html ... It's very basic, but I think it could get new users up and running in 3 minutes instead of 3 hours.

have fun!

mario

[Jeremy Ruston]

Just to add to Mark's comment: It has been clear for a few years that some users find the terms "TiddlyWiki" and "tiddler" to be a barrier to taking it seriously. In particular, while the word "tiddler" is common and innocent enough in Britain, it appears that for quite a few North American users it carries obscene connotations that they consider self-evident.

There's an example in this recent tweet:

> It's all fun and games until you pass away and your significant other has to log into something called TiddlyWiki and browse through Tiddlers to find your last will testament.

(See https://twitter.com/remembersonly/status/1228729946656428032)

I have recently been thinking through what would be involved in a name change, and am starting to think that it might not be a terrible idea.

In order to understand some of the issues, I made a very simple experiment where I wrote a script that takes the prerelease index.html and applies the following four global search and replacements across the file:

* TiddlyWiki --> FooBarWiki

* tiddlywiki --> foobarwiki

* Tiddler --> Card

* tiddler --> card

The result is a fully functional TiddlyWiki with no remaining references to the words "tiddlywiki" or "tiddler". Not only is the user interface text fixed, the `<$tiddler>` widget becomes the `<$card>` widget, and the `<$tranclude tiddler=foo/>` widget becomes `<$tranclude card=foo/>` etc.

That simple approach is unlikely to be the way that we'd want to approach the name change, but it establishes the technical feasibility of changing the name.

We'd need to provide an upgrade path for existing users. Perhaps we'd keep tiddlywiki.com running for 12 months with a build that uses the terms TiddlyWiki and tiddler, and a separate build at foobarwiki.com with the new terminology. We'd also need a conversion tool for updating individual wikis: we could offer an online tool and a command line option for Node.js.

There's lots of interesting questions to consider before we even try to settle on the new name itself, and I'm interested to hear other views.

* Is it worth the effort of changing the name?

* What are the downsides of doing so?

* Coming up with suggestions for the new name is relatively easy, but what are the criteria that we should use to test the new name? (We wouldn't want to have to change it again)

* Should we seek to keep things simple by choosing a name that retains the TW initials?

Best wishes

Jeremy

Best wishes

--

Jeremy Ruston

jer...@jermolene.com

https://jermolene.com

On 17 Feb 2020, at 15:53, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



These discussions about extending the outreach of TW always center around some hypothetical

newby who is turned away by the complexity of TW. The reality is, that the first time we

learn of the existence of a new comer, they're asking for advice on some complicated,

convoluted mechanism that they've already devised. The technological barrier doesn't seem

to keep motivated people away.

Listen to the Podcast. What's keeping people away is the name.

I know it's irrational to chose an information management system based on a name, but

we live in an age of hyper-marketing -- everything gets marketed, branded, recognized.

So if something is under-branded it goes nowhere no matter how good it is because it's

up against hundreds of products with serious, professional sounding names.

The name TiddlyWiki suggests a kid's game or plaything. It suggests something that

someone made for fun but won't be here tomorrow. It doesn't suggest something that

you could do serious work with or store your vital information in. It doesn't suggest

something that will be here in 25 years.

OneNote, Evernote, Cintanotes, Google Keep ... all have names that you're not afraid

to say in an IT staff meeting. Names you don't have to mumble under your breath

when you explain how you did something. And, you don't have to actually get rid of

the name TiddlyWiki. You just make the publicly visible name something

like "TW Technology."  "Wiki-T" .

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 10:28:06 AM UTC-8, bimlas wrote:

A wave started which could make TiddlyWiki more and more famous. Now we might need to make it really user-friendly, so that new people can easily get over the initial difficulties and stay with Tiddly.

https://hackaday.com/2020/02/14/it-aint-over-til-the-paperwork-is-done-test-driving-tiddlywiki/

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[Aidan Grey]

* Is it worth the effort of changing the name?

Absolutely, yes. As long as foobarwiki stands for whatever better name is decided. I like Card vs. Tiddler.

* What are the downsides of doing so?

There's effort involved, obviously, and possibly an ongoing need to keep tiddlywiki.com and redirect to foorbarwiki. Historical / fan / dev sites may not be maintained to redirect to new site.

* Coming up with suggestions for the new name is relatively easy, but what are the criteria that we should use to test the new name? (We wouldn't want to have to change it again)

It should be tech-savvy, reflect what it is (OnePageWiki?), and not have any potential mutations. Like picking a name for a kid - you don't want to give them bully-friendly names, right?

* Should we seek to keep things simple by choosing a name that retains the TW initials?

If we can, but I wouldn't be wedded to it.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/9006A251-B3F5-4B11-A2FF-1EB80074115C%40gmail.com.

[Julio Peña]

Hello Jeremy and all,

Good questions indeed.

If I may chime in:

 

* Is it worth the effort of changing the name?

* What are the downsides of doing so?

* Coming up with suggestions for the new name is relatively easy, but what are the criteria that we should use to test the new name? (We wouldn't want to have to change it again)

* Should we seek to keep things simple by choosing a name that retains the TW initials?

Point 1: As long as it's for something technical, why not? Something like: "Wikitek or Wiki Tech" (to steal from Mark's idea) perhaps?

Point 2: Personally I wouldn't see the downsides. On the technical side I wouldn't know.

Point 3: Refer to Point 1.

Point 4: I'd second Adrian's statement on this one.

I hope my opinion may be of help.

Best wishes to all,

Julio

[Mohammad]

Hi Jeremy,

I support the idea very much.

I had the same experience as Mark, nobody at the first look thinks Tiddlywiki is a real powerful tool can be used for serious works.

* Is it worth the effort of changing the name?

Absolutely yes! We even see this name change when big companies merge, big universities merge and so on ...

* What are the downsides of doing so?

I don't see a big problem, but having current users and older ones and keep serving them will need some investment

* Coming up with suggestions for the new name is relatively easy, but what are the criteria that we should use to test the new name? (We wouldn't want to have to change it again)

SmartWiki, WikiTech,

Tikklywiki deserve a unique name, it is really different from any wiki around!

The wiki word also can be dropped, for example Amazon does not reflect what is the company!

* Should we seek to keep things simple by choosing a name that retains the TW initials?

Absolutely yes!

[Mohammad]

These pages shows the wiki engines available now

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_wiki_software
• https://www.wikimatrix.org/compare

--Mohammad

[Mat]

TiddlyWiki is dead! Long live TinkleWinkle! 

On a serious note:

If @Jermolene has any plans for TWX for within the next few years (i.e currently hypothetical rework or major overhaul like from TWC to TW5) then I'd definitely say WAIT with a name change until that time. 

If the various regretted decisions made when designing the TW5 base are not serious enough and TW5 is intended to live on forever... then, sure, FooBar.

<:-)

[Birthe C]

Hi Mat,

"TiddlyWiki is dead! Long live TinkleWinkle!"

Loved that one, laughed so hard.

But maybe catering for the younger generations starting in kindergarten will be important. The amount of equipment and expectations for them suggests so.

Seriously what would be a good new name? Still easily recognised and remembered, signalling not like anything else?

Birthe

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jeremy

I agree with Mark S. on the "name" issue you quote (though I don't see the actual post from him!).

The problem is the cultural resonance of "Tiddly" (small, not significant) and "tiddler" (ambiguous with echoes of "peeing", "small") in non-British cultures that speak English. And incomprehension in others.

That said, I think caution is a good idea. There is a complex legacy beyond code changes (many, but "tiddly"spot would be a simple example).

To me this kind of shift might work best in the context of a TWX, as Mat inclines. I'd worry that it could be confusing otherwise.

Thoughts

TT

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[PMario]

On Monday, February 17, 2020 at 5:12:44 PM UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

* TiddlyWiki --> FooBarWiki

* tiddlywiki --> foobarwiki

Please don't. IMO foo and bar are some of the most terrible placeholder variable names in computer history. see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foobar

 

* Tiddler --> Card

* tiddler --> card

I would be OK with card / Card

 

The result is a fully functional TiddlyWiki with no remaining references to the words "tiddlywiki" or "tiddler". Not only is the user interface text fixed, the `<$tiddler>` widget becomes the `<$card>` widget, and the `<$tranclude tiddler=foo/>` widget becomes `<$tranclude card=foo/>` etc.

Hmmm. Version 6.1.0 since it won't be backwards compatible. ... If we create a non-compatible version we should do some heavy house cleaning and get rid of the deprecated stuff.

 

There's lots of interesting questions to consider before we even try to settle on the new name itself, and I'm interested to hear other views.

* Is it worth the effort of changing the name?

I think so, since the name seems to cause problems. foobar will also cause problems, since it is a synonym for trash.

 

* What are the downsides of doing so?

Incompatibility

 

* Coming up with suggestions for the new name is relatively easy, but what are the criteria that we should use to test the new name? (We wouldn't want to have to change it again)

 

* Should we seek to keep things simple by choosing a name that retains the TW initials?

 

hmmm, the W is simple ... wiki ;)

-mario

[PMario]

On Monday, February 17, 2020 at 5:12:44 PM UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

Just to add to Mark's comment: It has been clear for a few years that some users find the terms "TiddlyWiki" and "tiddler" to be a barrier to taking it seriously. In particular, while the word "tiddler" is common and innocent enough in Britain, it appears that for quite a few North American users it carries obscene connotations that they consider self-evident.

As I found TW several years ago I didn't have the slightest problem with the name. My main language is German ... There is no word "tiddler" in German. So TiddlyWik was as good or bad as MoinMoin (which means: good morning good morning)

I thought tiddler is a small fish. ...

But having a look at:https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tiddlers ... There is a problem.

mario

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Mario

Please don't. IMO foo and bar are some of the most terrible placeholder variable names in computer history. see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foobar

Sorry for the confusion. I’m using foobar and card as placeholders, and not suggesting that they be the new terms.

Hmmm. Version 6.1.0 since it won't be backwards compatible. ... If we create a non-compatible version we should do some heavy house cleaning and get rid of the deprecated stuff.

I think I addressed this with my comment of an upgrade/converter tool. 

I think so, since the name seems to cause problems. foobar will also cause problems, since it is a synonym for trash. 

I really thought it was blindingly obvious that I was using it as a placeholder! Why on earth would I suggest such a terrible name?

Incompatibility

As I say I think I addressed that in my original post. 

 

* Coming up with suggestions for the new name is relatively easy, but what are the criteria that we should use to test the new name? (We wouldn't want to have to change it again)

 

* Should we seek to keep things simple by choosing a name that retains the TW initials?

 

hmmm, the W is simple ... wiki ;)

But equally people often tell me that “wiki” isnt a good term to describe TW :)

Best wishes

Jwremy

-mario

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[TiddlyTweeter]

PMario wrote:

I thought tiddler is a small fish. ...

But having a look at:https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tiddlers ... There is a problem. 

The issue is English is a language where words of the same spelling can mean many things. And often have regional variants.

The urban dictionary usage you quote is rare at the moment and unlikely to be in users minds. More common would be "tiddler" as a person taking a pee. 

TT

[PMario]

On Monday, February 17, 2020 at 8:51:41 PM UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

But equally people often tell me that “wiki” isnt a good term to describe TW :)

That's right. If someone hears wiki, they think MediaWiki / Wikipedia, which is really far away from TW.

-m

[PMario]

On Monday, February 17, 2020 at 8:51:41 PM UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

Please don't. IMO foo and bar are some of the most terrible placeholder variable names in computer history. see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foobar

Sorry for the confusion. I’m using foobar and card as placeholders, and not suggesting that they be the new terms.

Sry ... My bad :)

-m

[TiddlyTweeter]

Jeremy wrote ...

But equally people often tell me that “wiki” isnt a good term to describe TW :)

I don't like wiki for several reasons. Though I registered some ".wiki" addresses in deference to TW being promoted as one. 

So if you change the name and you'll leave me in legacy :-)

I think the main reason "wiki" is not ideal is that TW really is not like most of the big wiki around. Its ability to shape-shift puts it in a quite different category.

TT

[bimlas]

I also agree that there are several things that should be improved by introducing incompatibility issues.

About the name issue: I thought for a long time that TWX was the official name for the next version of Tiddly. I think it's a cool name, isn't it? As I look at it, there are not quite relevant results for it. Could be upgraded to "TWX Platform" or "The TWX"

[Aidan Grey]

TT said:

> I think the main reason "wiki" is not ideal is that TW really is not like most of the big wiki around. Its ability to shape-shift puts it in a quite different category.  

That's very true. Maybe it should be called something else altogether, entirely unique. 

The metaphors that pop into my mind are webs and trees. TechWeb? TreeWeb?

Or weaving - skeins instead of TWs, with threads or knots instead of tiddlers?

[bimlas]

Jeremy,

 

* What are the downsides of doing so?

If I look at it from an SEO perspective, TiddlyWiki is relatively widespread, but at first the new name may not appear on the first page of Google. I don't know if that matters, but it's also an aspect.

Will the incompatibility that PMario says be as great as TWC vs TW5? I didn't know Tiddly at the time, but if I guess, plugins need to be modified for the new version, or (if other changes are made) rewritten completely (`$tw`, `options.wiki.getTiddler()`, etc.).

 

* Coming up with suggestions for the new name is relatively easy, but what are the criteria that we should use to test the new name? (We wouldn't want to have to change it again)

I think you need to look at how popular the name is and if there is a hit, you have to see if it is also software. For example, I wrote a Bash script called Mosh, which has been reported by many to have already been reserved for an Android shell - so there was an existing program on the same topic that leads to confusion. You could also use Google transaltor to see if it means something in different languages.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Jeremy Ruston wrote:

* Is it worth the effort of changing the name?

The issue, is, likely, are we getting enough users? Would a change in *name* increase them? HOW would we probe that issue practically? 

* What are the downsides of doing so?

Within version I think that could be complex. IF its another version, a new branch, its easier. 

 

* Coming up with suggestions for the new name is relatively easy, but what are the criteria that we should use to test the new name? (We wouldn't want to have to change it again)

I'm of the view that one needs feedback to know. Part of the issue is getting a test panel that is Not "us".

 

* Should we seek to keep things simple by choosing a name that retains the TW initials?

No. Not for the sake of it. Rather only as a proactive choice.

Thoughts

TT 

[TonyM]

Jeremy,

Some carefully considered thoughts follow;

I agree a name change may be necessary despite my contentment with it, others seem to read it differently, the recent podcaste that made reference to it is a case in point. However we have a clear legacy of plugins and editions and solutions out there for which searching tiddlywiki will find the results, as a result "tiddlywiki can not be forgotten", perhaps ever.

Thus I think this needs a strategy to accompany a name change. One approach is to promote tiddlywiki with a catch phrase that sheds light on its function and potentially contains the new name, eventually the new name emerges from the catch phrase and becomes the primary name. With the community aware of this we have time with updates to get the new name embedded in material on the internet.

In a previous discussion  I suggested starting with a catch phrase to accompany the name wherever possible of the top of my head, "Tiddlywiki a website, application, wiki database and a smart document platform". Personally I really like the broad word "platform" because it sounds complete and diverse whilst also "ready to go" out of the box.

One thing is for sure that tiddlywiki and tiddler are sufficiently rare that they have served us well, choosing a new name badly could send us into search engine oblivion even if it describes tiddlywiki well.

To find a name, Perhaps the first questions is where do we want people to see tiddlywiki? I think Wiki is a strong though incomplete way of describing tiddlywiki but wiki can be in the catch phrase, where else do we want it to be seen?

Perhaps we can make it's key weakness an advantage, its weakness is its diversity of uses, where none should be emphasised over the others, so trawling the english language for an uncommon word that reflects this could be the source of a name, then we need to look for alternatives in other languages. Usually the larger words are common across multiple languages.

Can we use the "TW" and redefine it in some way to Totally(awesome)Wiki platform. 

I do think perhaps the release of TW6/X would be the time to re-label and the tiddler and tiddlywiki must remain in the empty file such as "[TotalWiki] the next generation of tiddlywiki". The references discussions and prior to this next generation needs to remain searchable and well known.

Regards

Tony

[Mark Kerrigan]

Hello

I'm skeptical if switching away from the name TiddlyWiki will really entice more people to start using TiddlyWiki. It seems more of the issues are less about the name, but more of the initial technical hurdle to save changes. TiddlyWiki requires the user to set up some sort of saving mechanism. Obviously those of us here are all familiar with our chosen particular method, but the initial user may not always figure out what will be the most effective method for them, especially if they are using TiddlyWiki in a constrained corporate environment.

Just my 2 cents, but it would be a shame to change the name and concept of tiddlers but still retain the same sort of underlying complexity and not really create a large increase in the user base.

Thanks

Mark Kerrigan

[Mohamed Amin]

As a relatively new user (8 months now) I strongly agree with Mark Kerrigan, 

let me put my thoughts here (excuse my bad english):-

1- There are very successful Tools with bad names (https://flask-wtf.readthedocs.io/en/stable/) ,or names that NOT reflect the current functionallty ("WordPress" name was reflecting the "Blogging" part , now it's CMS) 

2- All PR is good PR  (https://www.skyword.com/contentstandard/can-bad-advertisements-good-brand/).

3- I agree that the name is not reflecting the functionally/capability of the tool (at least the "Wiki" part), BUT changing the name now (love to do that) will NOT help new user much.

4- I recently understand that introducing TW5 to the new user is REALLY hard, as it is very UNIQUE piece of Tool/Platform, and I think finding some ways to do that is the top priority for TW community.

5- We need to do a "TiddlyWiki BRANDING" by provide solutions/example that explane how this "2MB" master piece (most underrated tool) has :-

- The Philosophy of "non linear contents" (it is hard, but it works very good with "real life") 

- the idea of "Smallest information unit" (Tiddlers)

- the briliant of adding the "Meta Data" to the Tiddlers (Fields)

- The butty of UI cusomization (http://novye-podarki.ru/heeg.html#%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3)

- The Power of "Filter operation"

- WikiText

- Plugins

- MultiDimension Tool (Data Structure, Data Modeling, Query Language, Messaging, UI , .....) 

- SPA.

- Static Web Site Design/Generator

- JavaScript, Html, CSS Playground.

- ....

- ....

P.S. : I fall in love with TW from the 1st sight :), just know that I'm 46Y IT Engineer, and I'm currently migrating all My Data/Information managments and some programming tasks to TiddlyWiki

[Mark S.]

The way that it helps the newcomer is that it lets them know that the product is OK to

use in the first place. IT people often think only in terms of technology, but most

other people interface with products via introducers and branding.

The name "TiddlyWiki", unlike other products mentioned, has a name that strongly

suggests something diminutive or child-like. This is not something that people

want to be associated with. In fact, it would be better to have a pejorative or

scatological name then something that suggests "child." You can have bad

names and still succeed. But you can not give a product that suggests

"toy" and have it widely accepted in the corporate and business world.

But I see from the various posts that people don't understand the power of marketing,

or perhaps they believe that they are immune from its effects.  That is part of the magic of

marketing, that people don't even know or recognize that they have been marketed

to, and that they are unconsciously making decisions based on aspects of a

product that are totally irrelevant.

"...the Hitch-Hiker's Guide has already supplanted the great Encyclopaedia Galactica as the standard

repository of all knowledge and wisdom, for though it has many omissions and contains much that is

apocryphal, or at least wildly inaccurate, it scores over the older, more pedestrian work in two

important respects.

First, it is slightly cheaper; and secondly it has the words DON'T PANIC inscribed in large friendly letters on its cover."

[TonyM]

Why can we have a second brand? Perhaps a new edition under that, and simply cross reference to "The tiddlywiki platform".

Perhaps a third brand and do A/B marketing perhaps one targeted at IT Literates and one to average Joe user. 

Regards

Tony

[Birthe C]

Hi Mark S.

The name "TiddlyWiki", unlike other products mentioned, has a name that strongly

suggests something diminutive or child-like. This is not something that people

want to be associated with.

 

Marketing and lots of money got a lot of people to use software from Microsoft.  Some even use OneNote, I am rather sure though, that they did expect to be able to write more than one note.

@Mohamed Amin,

Good points.

Birthe

[Mohammad]

These are the list of 19 big company renamed

https://www.cnbc.com/2015/05/26/19-famous-companies-that-originally-had-different-names.html

Google is among them!

Jeremy said, he will provide an upgrading tool!

I think change tiddler to card and Tiddlywiki to TWX or TW Platform or SmartX will not break the compatibility NOR lose the users!

--Mohammad

[Mohammad]

Sony, Nike, Apple, Blackberry, eBay, IBM are among the renamed company!

Do not fear from a change in name!

--Mohammad

[TonyM]

Mohammad

I would not have any fear if I had their marketing budgets.

I do think we need to be realistic, thus why I think it can be managed with a planned and staged transition as I posted earlier.

Tony

[Diego Mesa]

I definitely agree we could use a change in name. I also 100% agree that that is not the MAIN problem preventing people from trying/using TW today. 

I, like others here, have tried several SEVERAL times to introduce TW to others. They end up not using it NOT because I explain these things are called tiddlers, but as soon as I get to the "there are 12 different kinds of savers, tiddlydesktop, node, etc. Oh and you need at least these 4 plugins to get started, oh and they can only be found as attachments/links on google groups forums which cant really be searched".

That's when I lose them. 

[Mohamed Amin]

@Diego Mesa, Exactly

We have to find a way to let the "target audience" FEEL the NEED.

One of the ways that similar difficult/straing technology use to introduce themselves and "CREATE" that NEED, is to use "GAMES" and "STORY Telling".

By using a GOOD games/story; the users can have and "easy in" to the tool then "feel the power" and "Turn a blind eye" for the negatives.

I'm sure that once anyone is connected to TW5 , there's NO way back :)

Examples:-

1- VIM editor (https://vim-adventures.com/)

2- CSS grid (https://cssgridgarden.com/)

3- Blockchain (https://cryptozombies.io/)

[Mark S.]

In your case, people got past the name because YOU were there to introduce them. But

out on the net there is no introducer, no one to convince them. So that's when the name

becomes important. Once again, if the name wasn't a diminutive, it wouldn't matter so

much.

Some problems are intractable -- they have no solution. This is true of TW in it's current

formulation. Call it Godel's Rule of TiddlyWiki:

   Any information system based on browser technology will never have just one way of saving.

Since we can't solve problem #2 without limiting users' choices (e.g. "Use TiddlyDesktop Only") we

should fix the problem that we can solve: The published name of the Product.

Oh, and you can keep "TiddlyWiki" as an internal name. Remember when MicroSoft used to

give it's Window's releases the names of cities? Ok, anyone remember which version was "Cairo" ?

[Diego Mesa]

Again - I agree we need a name change.

I also agree with the extra statement someone made that of all the things TW needs, a name change is not priority #1.

It is possible to offer users too many choices, especially at the beginning. TW isn't really structured to let users GROW into the complexity. They are immediately greeted with an empty and 12 saving options, and a google group of threads with additional plugins.

[Mohammad]

Like Mark, I believe while renaming does not solve some problems people raised here!

But keeping the current Name also will not help to solve those problems.

 

--Mohammad 

[Stobot]

Adding an opinion to the pile in terms of making TiddlyWiki more popular - from someone who's spent more than a decade trying to convince friends and co-workers. Not a developer like many of you, just super-fan.

1. Name change would be *very welcome* (Reference US/Canada since this has come up). I usually try to avoid the "Tiddly" terminology as long as possible. I like/use "card" today when explaining and refer to TiddlyWiki as "a platform" - so I agree with others here. In terms of name I liked keeping TW and using the "Quine" aspect to make "Twine" which fits, but it looks like that's something already out there - and I wouldn't be surprised if it was related to TWactually by looking at it.

2. Agree with previous posts about a "standard" edition a little more complete than "empty" with some of the other defaults that people have mentioned. Also maybe something complete & universal that paints the picture as an option to give vision would be useful. There is some documentation referencing recipes (filters mostly) that is a good start. Maybe having a "cookbook edition" ready to use with a video on how to build yourself could get people to the "super-user stage" after they're hooked.

3. See there's discussion around "many ways to save". I love that there's lots of options, but I agree that maybe those other options should be secondary to a super easy default. Based on most other software, a TiddlySpot-like starting point for people getting their first exposure makes the most sense to me personally. Then have "other save options" for those who have more specific needs.

4. Along with the easy starting page, I think an introductory video should be nearly all you see on the homepage (aside from a "Start Here / Sign Up" link), and most of the other clutter hidden a bit. The video of Jeremy explaining the technical capabilities is functional, but something more upbeat and "problem-solving" would be more appropriate in my opinion. Something like "do you have this problem, this is how you could fix it with TWX!". Maybe in a voice that sounds excited about the software (sorry Jeremy, your tone doesn't come across as very excited :| )

[TonyM]

Folks,

The usability and complexity associated with saving tiddlywiki's arises again in this thread because naming tiddlywiki is about the popularisation. This is where I think a carefully selected "additional" name would provide a metaphor that helps people grasp what tiddlywiki is. I do not have any examples yet, but a focused effort could uncover some good alternate names. 

However on the saving issues perhaps we can change the way we present all the different saver approaches. When I think of the platform I am most familiar with "Windows"  there are some very quick adoption options, the big green button could save empty.html as empty.hta and the recently rediscovered TWexe are run out of the box at least on windows. Expanding this further to server implementations includes bob.exe.

At least on windows and possibly Android we can help rapid deployment. Perhaps the only barrier is we need to provide a simple decision tree from tiddlywiki.com

[Mark S.]

Your choices show the magnitude of the problem. hta files only work with IE. TWexe is quite possibly dangerous and wouldn't be allowed on secured systems. Bob requires users to understand launching program "A" before using "B" and how to install plugins.

The obvious first choice is the default download mechanism. Just tell users how to adjust their browser settings to always ask about saving, and then they can be off and running. This is the only method that works out-of-the box everywhere without any additional plugins, software, executables, or specialized browsers.

THEN, after the user is hooked, and wants a simpler, more powerful way to save, they can come back and explore other options.

Once again, saving is a difficult problem with difficult choices.

Changing a name, not so much.

[David Gifford]

The Hackaday name to this thread hides the importance of this thread. Glad I happened to notice how many posts it had, to see that it had to do with something as momentous as a namechange for TW.

Reactions:

1) Oh, dear, no more dilly-dallying or shilly-shallying willy-nilly in TiddlyWiki. :-)

2) I would agree that it is hard to avoid hearing snickers when I mention I use something called "TiddlyWiki", and don't see downsides. A name change won't attract people, but it will reduce a barrier.

3) All the good ones are taken: NoteStack, JotStack, WikiStack, NoteConnect, NoteGarden, IdeaGarden, NoteBoat, IdeaBucket, ThoughtRiver, BrainCapture, Brainstream, ideastream, notestream, ... Would have been easier to do this years ago...FreeBrain looks like it is not taken, but someone could confuse it with FreeMind, which is taken (mindmapping)...

4) Some criteria:

a) Easy to say, rolls off the tongue, the spelling does not leave the pronunciation ambiguous (illo: Mindriver = MindRiver or MinDriver?)

b) Not offputting for either non-techy users or serious coders (e.g. not "ConcatenationWiki")

c) Nothing obscene or tiddlating :-) (I am North American but had not heard of tiddler being considered obscene.)

d) Nothing that will become obsolete, like a reference to a trend (not "NoteCardashians")

e) Fits no matter how it is used - node.js, standalone, local, online or from USB

f) I like cards for tiddlers but if 'cards' is in the name of the file, people might assume it is a flashcard program

5) Another option for tiddlers instead of cards might be 'tiles' - but please not TileyWiki. And lots of 'tile' names like Tile Pile and tilestream are taken too...

6) Cynical options, all in good fun: LearningCurve, EndlessFiddlyWiki, ListFilterLabrynth...

Oh well, that is my initial response. Hope you had fun reading it. Some points are serious, others not so much...

On Monday, February 17, 2020 at 10:12:44 AM UTC-6, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

Just to add to Mark's comment: It has been clear for a few years that some users find the terms "TiddlyWiki" and "tiddler" to be a barrier to taking it seriously. In particular, while the word "tiddler" is common and innocent enough in Britain, it appears that for quite a few North American users it carries obscene connotations that they consider self-evident.

There's an example in this recent tweet:

> It's all fun and games until you pass away and your significant other has to log into something called TiddlyWiki and browse through Tiddlers to find your last will testament.

(See https://twitter.com/remembersonly/status/1228729946656428032)

I have recently been thinking through what would be involved in a name change, and am starting to think that it might not be a terrible idea.

In order to understand some of the issues, I made a very simple experiment where I wrote a script that takes the prerelease index.html and applies the following four global search and replacements across the file:

* TiddlyWiki --> FooBarWiki

* tiddlywiki --> foobarwiki

* Tiddler --> Card

* tiddler --> card

The result is a fully functional TiddlyWiki with no remaining references to the words "tiddlywiki" or "tiddler". Not only is the user interface text fixed, the `<$tiddler>` widget becomes the `<$card>` widget, and the `<$tranclude tiddler=foo/>` widget becomes `<$tranclude card=foo/>` etc.

That simple approach is unlikely to be the way that we'd want to approach the name change, but it establishes the technical feasibility of changing the name.

We'd need to provide an upgrade path for existing users. Perhaps we'd keep tiddlywiki.com running for 12 months with a build that uses the terms TiddlyWiki and tiddler, and a separate build at foobarwiki.com with the new terminology. We'd also need a conversion tool for updating individual wikis: we could offer an online tool and a command line option for Node.js.

There's lots of interesting questions to consider before we even try to settle on the new name itself, and I'm interested to hear other views.

* Is it worth the effort of changing the name?

* What are the downsides of doing so?

* Coming up with suggestions for the new name is relatively easy, but what are the criteria that we should use to test the new name? (We wouldn't want to have to change it again)

* Should we seek to keep things simple by choosing a name that retains the TW initials?

Best wishes

Jeremy

Best wishes

--

Jeremy Ruston

jer...@jermolene.com

https://jermolene.com

On 17 Feb 2020, at 15:53, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



These discussions about extending the outreach of TW always center around some hypothetical

newby who is turned away by the complexity of TW. The reality is, that the first time we

learn of the existence of a new comer, they're asking for advice on some complicated,

convoluted mechanism that they've already devised. The technological barrier doesn't seem

to keep motivated people away.

Listen to the Podcast. What's keeping people away is the name.

I know it's irrational to chose an information management system based on a name, but

we live in an age of hyper-marketing -- everything gets marketed, branded, recognized.

So if something is under-branded it goes nowhere no matter how good it is because it's

up against hundreds of products with serious, professional sounding names.

The name TiddlyWiki suggests a kid's game or plaything. It suggests something that

someone made for fun but won't be here tomorrow. It doesn't suggest something that

you could do serious work with or store your vital information in. It doesn't suggest

something that will be here in 25 years.

OneNote, Evernote, Cintanotes, Google Keep ... all have names that you're not afraid

to say in an IT staff meeting. Names you don't have to mumble under your breath

when you explain how you did something. And, you don't have to actually get rid of

the name TiddlyWiki. You just make the publicly visible name something

like "TW Technology."  "Wiki-T" .

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 10:28:06 AM UTC-8, bimlas wrote:

A wave started which could make TiddlyWiki more and more famous. Now we might need to make it really user-friendly, so that new people can easily get over the initial difficulties and stay with Tiddly.

https://hackaday.com/2020/02/14/it-aint-over-til-the-paperwork-is-done-test-driving-tiddlywiki/

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[Eric Shulman]

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 10:10:48 AM UTC-8, Mohammad wrote:

Like Mark, I believe while renaming does not solve some problems people raised here!

But keeping the current Name also will not help to solve those problems.

There are many applications and websites that have silly names (Google, Twitter, Yahoo, DuckDuckGo, Twitch) or are portmanteaus composed of word fragments or combinations (GMail, Instagram, Wikipedia, Pinterest, WordPress) or deliberate misspellings (Reddit="read it", Imgur="imager").  Some names are completely arbitrary and have nothing at all to do with the site purpose (Amazon, eBay, Tumblr, Bing).  There's even names that have unfortunate use of unsavory or perjorative terms (GitHub - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(slang)) or use words that are the opposite of their intended purpose (Discord="to disagree or lack harmony" vs Discourse="written or spoken communication or debate")

I do not believe that changing the name of TiddlyWiki will have any meaningful effect on the rate of adoption.  There is a crowd of similarly-named "wiki" systems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wiki_software) and if anything, the distinctive name makes it more memorable.  

What might help (but perhaps only a little) is a clear and consistent explanation of the name, followed by a summary "showcase" of some of the interesting kinds of things that illustrates the power and flexibility of what you can actually *DO* with TiddlyWiki.  After all, once you get past the name, its what people want to do that determines whether or not they stick with TiddlyWiki.

Here's my explanation for the name "TiddlyWiki":  http://tiddlytools.com/InsideTW/#WhatsInAName

-e

ref: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/top-100-websites-ranking.html

[Mohammad]

David,

 This is a small but nice tutorial on Tiddlywiki edition: Maarfapad

https://cdn.rawgit.com/abesamma/TW5-editions/78846468/empty.html

--Mohammad

[David Gifford]

Very nice, Mohammad!

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[Mark S.]

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 12:19:24 AM UTC-8, Eric Shulman wrote:

There are many applications and websites that have silly names (Google, Twitter, Yahoo, DuckDuckGo, Twitch) or are portmanteaus composed of word fragments or combinations (GMail, Instagram, Wikipedia, Pinterest, WordPress) or deliberate misspellings (Reddit="read it", Imgur="imager").  Some names are completely arbitrary and have nothing at all to do with the site purpose (Amazon, eBay, Tumblr, Bing).  There's even names that have unfortunate use of unsavory or perjorative terms (GitHub - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(slang)) or use words that are the opposite of their intended purpose (Discord="to disagree or lack harmony" vs Discourse="written or spoken communication or debate")

Well, DuckDuckGo isn't exactly taking off, even though they do
advertise. Yahoo is in decline, has financial problems and just ended
their groups. "Google" was a reference to a mathematical concept, so
already had an "in" in the nerd crowd. Also, they had an advantage
that their competition at the time was "Yahoo", which at the time also
had an advertising budget (anyone else hear the radio adverts?)

The big point is that none of the competing names are diminutives.
Yes, you can have a name that's farcical, arbitrary, or pejorative.
But you can not, must not, have a name that is a diminutive or
suggests childishness and expect it to self-evangelize. TW has no
advertising budget, so word-of-mouth is the only way it will spread.
But people don't feel comfortable saying "Tiddly Wiki" out loud in
meetings in front of adults. This severely limits evangelization, and
it limits uptake among people today who are exposed to dozens of

competing products every day.

People make choices every day based on subtle cues without even realizing it. This is why

no one calls their child "Rover" and people with names like "Rudolph" just use their

initials. Names are important, and aspirational. And absent advertising, they can

make or break widespread acceptance among the netizens of the world.

[Eric Shulman]

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 7:16:34 AM UTC-8, Mark S. wrote:

Well, DuckDuckGo isn't exactly taking off, even though they do

advertise.

According to  the June 2019 stats from https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/top-100-websites-ranking.html, DuckDuckGo has been "experiencing brisk growth in recent years"... and shows a 10-fold increase from 3M daily searches in 2014 to 30M daily searches in 2019.... and, "DuckDuckGo" sounds like a reference to a child's game, "Duck Duck Goose"

Yahoo is in decline, has financial problems and just ended their groups.

As of June 2019, Yahoo is the 7th most visited site on the list, just behind Twitter (6th), and ahead of PornHub (ewww!) and Instagram (9th).  While they are no longer the *top* search engine of choice, they are still quite relevant and have a persistence over the long haul that speaks to their *actual* stability, despite any perceptions to the contrary.

 

"Google" was a reference to a mathematical concept, so already had an "in" in the nerd crowd.

"Google" is a sound a baby makes.  "Googol" is the math term.  For actual math nerds, this is a non-trivial distinction.

 

Also, they had an advantage
that their competition at the time was "Yahoo", which at the time also
had an advertising budget (anyone else hear the radio adverts?)

Admittedly, Yahoo *seems* to be past its prime; however, as noted above, it is still doing quite well in the rankings (7th)... well ahead of Amazon (14), NetFlix (17),  WhatsApp (19), Reddit (21), and eBay (28)... all of which have more *buzz* but less *traffic*.

 

The big point is that none of the competing names are diminutives.
Yes, you can have a name that's farcical, arbitrary, or pejorative.
But you can not, must not, have a name that is a diminutive or
suggests childishness and expect it to self-evangelize.

Contrary to your assertion, "DuckDuckGo" and "Google" are both childish names... and BIG doesn't not mean BETTER... *micro*soft is a diminutive name, and they have done quite well.

TW has no advertising budget, so word-of-mouth is the only way it will spread.
But people don't feel comfortable saying "Tiddly Wiki" out loud in meetings in front of adults.

Why do you feel that is so?  Adults in meetings... REAL adults... don't make business decisions based on "feelings" about the name of a product.  They evaluate the cost/benefit relationship to their business objectives, and adopt whatever tech makes sense to meet their goals.   Also, my sense is that, for most businesses, use of TiddlyWiki is targeted for *internal* activities (e.g., status reports, planning documents, HR manuals, etc), rather than customer-facing presentations (except perhaps for online end-user reference manuals, installation/troubleshooting guides, etc.), so the name of the product is not really that relevant to the decision to use it.

This severely limits evangelization, and
it limits uptake among people today who are exposed to dozens of

competing products every day.

The shear number of sites and products with "techno-babble" names demands that people making decisions will tend to look for the *functionality* that suits their purposes, regardless of the name of the product.

People make choices every day based on subtle cues without even realizing it. This is why

no one calls their child "Rover" and people with names like "Rudolph" just use their

initials.

Rudolph is still a widely used name (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolph_(name))

and there are *many* famous people who go by "Rudy" -- the *diminutive* form of Rudolph (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy)

Names are important, and aspirational. And absent advertising, they can

make or break widespread acceptance among the netizens of the world.

I think that age has a great deal to do with how much sway a name has among "netizens".

The younger crowd (teens and 20-somethings) are very fickle and prone to the short-term social influence of their contemporaries.  If you choose a name that appeals to the younger crowd, you might get a quick boost in popularity, but you are just as likely to find yourself "left in the lurch" when the trend of the moment moves on to the next big thing.

On the other hand, older "netizens" (especially those who run businesses) tend towards more in-depth considerations.  They recognize that, in the long-run, the *name* of an application is NOT even remotely as important as the *functionality* and *reliability* of a product.  TiddlyWiki's slow but steady growth and persistence over the past 15 years demonstrates that it has the utility and stability that appeals to *decision makers* rather than *influencers*.

Please note that I am not averse to *considering* other names for TiddlyWiki.  It's just that I don't think a name change will have any significant *positive* effect on how well TiddlyWiki is accepted, and there are more important issues (e.g., file saving, hosting, security, etc.) that will have a much greater impact on growth and acceptance.  Conversely, changing the name can have a major *negative* effect, discarding the accumulated good-will and confidence that has been building for many years, by sending a signal that the developers of a product are more interested in style over substance.

Keep the name... improve the functionality.

-e

[Julio Peña]

Hello all,

RE @Eric's post above...interesting.

I never saw from that perspective. 

Good points...great post!

Blessings,

Julio

[Jeremy Ruston]

Yes, this is a great discussion, and very helpful. Please don’t be afraid to chime in, this is an important decision and it would be great to have the broadest possible feedback.

Best wishes

Jeremy

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[Mat]

The decision is in one sense simple: Do enough people shy away because of the name?

Yes = change

No = don't change

The key word is, of course, "enough". So let's start estimating and reasoning.

The name complaint has been recurring over the years (decades) and comes from different people. It is loudly brought up on average... I'd say 1-2 times a year? Not every time does it lead to a bigger discussion. In the bigger discussions some 5 people agree it is a problem (regardless if it is 1 or 2 times a year). This is in a user group of... how many active people? 100? So that's 5%. Or are we 500 people and it's 1%?

...However, most people are silent on the matter. We have no clue how many. Say, there's 10 more times silent people than there are loud mouths, who also find the name problematic. That makes 50%-10%. 50% doesn't sound at all reasonable. Say it's 20%.

 

...However, this is from the TW fan club! We are not really the concern here. Reasonably the dislike is more problematic among not-yet-fans. OK, we double the estimates which makes 40%. 4/10 who dismiss it because of the name. I don't trust this number at all, it sounds crazily high, but I did reason to get to it. Feel free to correct the estimations.

Back to the original question: Is this "enough" to warrant a change? Would double be enough? Would a tenth of it (i.e 4/100) be enough?

<:-)

[Mark S.]

The people who come here have already bought in. Often the first we hear of them is after they've already used the product for years.

My guess is that there is a 6 to 8 fold loss. That is, for every person that gives it a whirl, there's 6 or more people that decide it

isn't for real because the name doesn't match their expectation of how a real product should be.

[Mat]

Mark S. wrote:

My guess is that there is a 6 to 8 fold loss. That is, for every person that gives it a whirl, there's 6 or more people that decide it 

isn't for real because the name doesn't match their expectation of how a real product should be.

...wow... even if that estimate is 6 times too high, that'd be a disaster...  What makes you guess these numbers?

<:-)

[Mark S.]

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 10:33:56 AM UTC-8, Eric Shulman wrote:

According to  the June 2019 stats from https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/top-100-websites-ranking.html, DuckDuckGo has been "experiencing brisk growth in recent years"... and shows a 10-fold increase from 3M daily searches in 2014 to 30M daily searches in 2019.... and, "DuckDuckGo" sounds like a reference to a child's game, "Duck Duck Goose"

Ok! How many people here today useds DDG, and how many people used Google?

Also, DDG ADVERTISES -- I get their stuff in my FF startup page 2 or 3 times a week.

 

Yahoo is in decline, has financial problems and just ended their groups.

As of June 2019, Yahoo is the 7th most visited site on the list, just behind Twitter (6th), and ahead of PornHub (ewww!) and Instagram (9th).  While they are no longer the *top* search engine of choice, they are still quite relevant and have a persistence over the long haul that speaks to their *actual* stability, despite any perceptions to the contrary.

 

I have a very different view, since I just spent $$$ to move a group away from Yahoo with virtually no warning given. Yahoo is in steady decline.

Once again, Yahoo got where they are by advertising. Also, their name is NOT a diminutive.

 

"Google" was a reference to a mathematical concept, so already had an "in" in the nerd crowd.

"Google" is a sound a baby makes.  "Googol" is the math term.  For actual math nerds, this is a non-trivial distinction.

It's a pun. Even a mathematical pun. That makes it cool even among math nerds. And they advertised.

 

 *micro*soft is a diminutive name, and they have done quite well.

Perhaps I need a better word. Let's go with "infantile". A little stronger than I would like, but it seems like otherwise it gets overridden by all those names that are merely diminutive. 

People don't want to be thought of as childish. They would rather be thought of as rude, lewd, nasty or even dumb ... before wanting to be thought childish.

 

TW has no advertising budget, so word-of-mouth is the only way it will spread.
But people don't feel comfortable saying "Tiddly Wiki" out loud in meetings in front of adults.

Why do you feel that is so?  Adults in meetings... REAL adults... don't make business decisions based on "feelings" about the name of a product.

Yes they do. Every day. That's why advertising companies make the big yen.

The shear number of sites and products with "techno-babble" names demands that people making decisions will tend to look for the *functionality* that suits their purposes, regardless of the name of the product.

A lot of people won't get that far. They'll do a mental shortcut: "Sounds childish. Skip"

I think that age has a great deal to do with how much sway a name has among "netizens".

The younger crowd (teens and 20-somethings) are very fickle and prone to the short-term social influence of their contemporaries.  If you choose a name that appeals to the younger crowd, you might get a quick boost in popularity, but you are just as likely to find yourself "left in the lurch" when the trend of the moment moves on to the next big thing.

Like it or not, youth are the future, and always have been.

On the other hand, older "netizens" (especially those who run businesses) tend towards more in-depth considerations. 

Increasingly a minority. They're even more likely to be turned off by a product that both has an infantile name and poses a substantial learning curve. I see this as someone who is in the demographic.

Please note that I am not averse to *considering* other names for TiddlyWiki.  It's just that I don't think a name change will have any significant *positive* effect on how well TiddlyWiki is accepted, and there are more important issues (e.g., file saving, hosting, security, etc.)

This is an either/or logic ploy. In reality, we don't have to pick one action over the other. Both are possible.

In any event, I don't see file saving changing unless something fundamental changes about TW.

Conversely, changing the name can have a major *negative* effect, discarding the accumulated good-will and confidence that has been building for many years,

Wait! You just said reasonable people aren't swayed by names. Now you're saying that they will leave TW because of a name change??? Which is it?

Oh well. I actually like the small world of TW. It would be a shame to have the forum flooded with 6 to 8 times the correspondence. To have friends or acquaintances ringing up in the night for TW advice. To have to keep up with the podcasts or media reports about TW all the time. To have to remember all the new plugins that will be generated or the new uses that will be created. Better to keep it the way it is ...

[David Gifford]

Speaking of either-or logic, perhaps we are all doing that. Maybe there would be a way to have it both ways: create a shell application with a different, more approachable name, but that says "powered by TiddlyWiki" and it gets updated automatically when TiddlyWiki gets updated.

So if you go to tiddlywiki.com, you get the name TiddlyWiki. but if you go to "Snafoobar.com" or "Snafoobar.tiddlywiki.com", you also get a TiddlyWiki, updated when TW on GitHub is updated, but it is called Snafoobar. Maybe not a great analogy but TiddlyWiki would be like the MS-DOS for the new app. I mean, we already have editions of TiddlyWiki that are updated when TW gets updated, right? Why not a covert edition with another name? Or am I missing something?

[Mat]

David Gifford wrote:

Speaking of either-or logic, perhaps we are all doing that. Maybe there would be a way to have it both ways: create a shell application with a different, more approachable name, but that says "powered by TiddlyWiki" and it gets updated automatically when TiddlyWiki gets updated.

Deprecate TiddlyWiki! Cool idea! People would only discover this after they are engaged... and then it's too late! Mwha hahaaaa!

Snafoobar

...ehm... yeah, interesting... suggestion... Dave... ;-)

<:-)

[Mark S.]

Yeah, that's pretty much how I imagined it would work. Maybe other people were thinking of something more draconian.

[Handoko Suwono]

For me it's great to keep TW as a name because few other forked TW with example TiddlySpace hadn't survived that long, even when it's back to the original forker though I love the concept of 'space'.

I am thinking of BlockChain to link with TW since Tiddler is also a block which is a disbursed ledger in BlockChain technology. A tiddler is actually linked to other tiddlers to make a whole. So probably a 'chain' could be tied to TW?

According to the definition however BlockChain itself is close to TW description.

handoko -

Description

"A blockchain, originally block chain, is a growing list of records, called blocks, that are linked using cryptography. Each block contains a cryptographic hash of the previous block, a timestamp, and transaction data. By design, a blockchain is resistant to modification of the data." Wikipedia

[Mark S.]

Consider Workflowy, a product that is arguably inferior to TW in several respects, is much younger than TW, has an expensive business model, and (by all reports) isn't being well maintained. I suppose they might advertise somewhere, but if so I haven't seen it.

They have a user base of TWO MILLION !

[TonyM]

Folks

Compelling arguments from everyone here. Please however respond to my suggestion.

If we start promoting tiddlywiki as the "tiddlywiki platform" it looses its diminutive quality. If we follow this with a catch phrase we can reposition tiddlywiki without loss of our unique name and search keyword.

Example below

Tiddlywiki platform
Own your own website, application and wiki on mobile, desktop, usb, cloud or web host.

Your views please!
Tony

[David Gifford]

Deprecate? I was thinking of it as continuing tiddlywiki.com as is, but adding a separate site where the guts of TW are wrapped in a slightly modified shell with another name, and those guts get autoupdated when TiddlyWiki does. And Snafoobar was for PMario, who thought Jeremy was seriously recommending the use of foobar as a name :-)

[Mat]

TonyM wrote:

If we start promoting tiddlywiki as

Hupp, wait. "If we start promoting"? That is one of the more fundamental problems. There's no promoting because it's not really that type of project.

 

Tiddlywiki platform

Own your own website, application and wiki on mobile, desktop, usb, cloud or web host.

Exactly when are we supposed to utter this? It's quite a mouthful. I typically don't even have the patience to type out "TiddlyWiki" but just TW.

<:-)

[Mat]

David Gifford wrote:

Deprecate? I was thinking of it as continuing tiddlywiki.com as is, but adding a separate site where the guts of TW are wrapped in a slightly modified shell with another name, and those guts get autoupdated when TiddlyWiki does.

Well, if we do introduce another name I think it makes sense to deprecate the current, i.e to keep it but not actively use it kind of like the TWC project. There's surely a cost for having two names in parallel - again, compare it with the occasional confusion from having both TWC and TW5. If we have 2 million users,.. oy vey.

 

And Snafoobar was for PMario, who thought Jeremy was seriously recommending the use of foobar as a name :-)

Pah! "Foobar" what a silly name. Snafoobar is the way to go! Workflowy move over!!!

<:-)

[Mark S.]

I think that would be a great name for a snack product pitched to office workers. I imagine

people sitting around in the break room, munching away on their SnafuBars.

Now I'm hungry.

[Joshua Fontany]

I am definitely following this with interest. I think a name-change would be worth considering. I'm also debugging asynchronous functions atm, so will have to wait to really dig into this conversation.

Best,
Joshua Fontany

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 11:01:03 AM UTC-8, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

Yes, this is a great discussion, and very helpful. Please don’t be afraid to chime in, this is an important decision and it would be great to have the broadest possible feedback.

Best wishes

Jeremy

On 19 Feb 2020, at 18:57, Julio Peña <jpe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello all,

RE @Eric's post above...interesting.

I never saw from that perspective. 

Good points...great post!

Blessings,

Julio

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[TonyM]

Mat

Promoting it as the "tiddlywiki platform" has not being done. Promoting can be as simple as tiddly wiki.com and published wikis.

You can make the phrase appear in tiddlywiki with metadata and thus in any search that results in a tiddlywiki.

If going to a new name having it in the phrase before rebranding gets it out there and tiddlywiki can me moved to the phrase when we do. This is an seo sensitive solution.

From all the ideas here my current preference would be to just add platform to the name tiddly wiki with a broad phrase associated where it is used.

Regards
Tony

[Eric Shulman]

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 3:44:49 PM UTC-8, Mat wrote:

Exactly when are we supposed to utter this? It's quite a mouthful. I typically don't even have the patience to type out "TiddlyWiki" but just TW.

Many years ago I coined this phrase to explain TW:

   "Own it like a document, Use it like a website"

Sometime I also use the following (just because I like alliteration):

   "Powerful Portable Programmable Platform for People"

and, to promote my consulting services, I have this:

   "Intuitive Interfaces for Intelligent Interactions"

The point here is to have short memorable slogans that, while not covering *all* the potential uses, have a "hook" that piques people's interest to learn more.

-e

[Mohammad]

I see there are three categories among discussing people here

1. Who believe a name change
2. Who believe instead of name change think about other fundamental issues tied with Tiddlywiki like saving
3. Who believe stick with current name

I am among the people believe a name change is better than keeping the present Tiddlywiki name! I DO NOT think other people support name change propose this as a solution to other issues, NO never!

So, lets be precise and briefly (in small articles) explain why a change name is a bad decision? What is the benefits of keeping current name? If we have enough reasons then we should keep it.

--Mohammad

 

[Mohammad Rahmani]

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 7:26 AM Eric Shulman <elsd...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 3:44:49 PM UTC-8, Mat wrote:

Exactly when are we supposed to utter this? It's quite a mouthful. I typically don't even have the patience to type out "TiddlyWiki" but just TW.

Many years ago I coined this phrase to explain TW:

   "Own it like a document, Use it like a website"

Sometime I also use the following (just because I like alliteration):

   "Powerful Portable Programmable Platform for People"

and, to promote my consulting services, I have this:

   "Intuitive Interfaces for Intelligent Interactions"

Love these! Great real description of what TW is! I added these meaningful descriptions to TW-Scripts!

The point here is to have short memorable slogans that, while not covering *all* the potential uses, have a "hook" that piques people's interest to learn more.

-e

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[Eric Shulman]

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 8:21:33 PM UTC-8, Mohammad wrote:

   "Intuitive Interfaces for Intelligent Interactions"

Love these! Great real description of what TW is! I added these meaningful descriptions to TW-Scripts!

Please note: that last one is a registered trademark for my professional consulting business

http://tiddlytools.com/InsideTW/#Legal%2FTrademarks

-e

[Mark S.]

"TiddlyWiki. First name in personal wikis. Last name in ... names."

(Ok, I don't really think it's the last name in names, but sometimes self-deprecating humor works)

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 8:21:33 PM UTC-8, Mohammad wrote:

[Mohammad]

Eric,

I kept the link. I referenced this with your name!

But if you think I should not put this in TW-Scripts, let me know.

[bimlas]

We may be looking in the wrong direction. Whatever the name of a software, I think everyone gives it a chance to at least search for it and see what exactly it is (screenshot, screencast). What if we improved the look instead of the name?

Take a look at this list: https://alternativeto.net/software/tiddlywiki/

Where there is only a text description for the program, we can only rely on the name and the icon and everyone may avoid Tiddly. However, for items that have a screenshot, I do not look at the name or the icon, but look at the software itself. If I like what I see, I will visit your website to learn more about it. If I don't like it, no matter how loud its name is, I won't look at it.

By default, Google only displays text results, so the appearance of the program is not important in that list, but as soon as you click on the result link, you are faced with an appearance and, if you don't like it, you go back to the other results. The Tiddly looks simple and clean, with usability in mind but not modern. If we improved its appearance, I think we would increase your chances of someone wanting to use Tiddly. 

There is a note management application called CintaNotes. If you look at the screenshots, it brings back the 90s mood: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cintanotes&iax=images&ia=images

Based on these pictures, would you like to try the program? If not, why not? It's a complex, useful program, why don't you give it a try? (I hope you understand what I want to illustrate.)

TW can also be displayed in a modern form (but I don't think we should use this theme, this is just an example): http://j.d.material.tiddlyspot.com/

So it might be better to add new themes to Tiddly instead of a new name and an easier-to-learn interface (which PMario would like to implement).

[TiddlyTweeter]

  Mohammad wrote:

... So, lets be precise and briefly ... explain why a change name is a bad decision? What is the benefits of keeping current name? If we have enough reasons then we should keep it.

1 - Not Now: Changing name for TW5 now, in mid-version I think might have the unintended consequence of creating confusion. Probably better to do it with a new major shift.

2 - Later, Yes: Changing the name IS a good idea. On that agree with Mark S. "Tiddly" & "Tiddler" are diminutive in a particularly negative way. 

That diminution can't be offset by positive Comparisons with names of "Big things" using "baby words" (e.g. "Google"). That isn't illuminating as those services are So Large they came to Re-Define meaning in actual usage. TiddlyWiki is not in a position to do that--so the name can't have the start-push of being able to redefine words. For many reasons. So the current name is not good.

3 - "Wiki" Is Probably Part Of The Name Problem: Several issues with "wiki": (a) Messy broader negative social resonance with things like "WikiLeaks"; (b) We are not "WikiPedia"; (c) Nor does implying TW is a "type of wiki" going to be illuminating to most people, so I can't see the value now in "wiki" that once more clearly existed, as much of the net has adopted methods pioneered by various wikis & moved on; (d) TW does a lot of things that big-name wikis have no correlate of. 

In short: "wiki" may be a "false friend" that just waters down ideas of what we have in TW.

4 - Name Is Only Part Of The Issue: But I also agree with Eric Shulman that a change that is "just" a change of name won't do much---and as several other posts in this thread have implied. The issue involves several intersecting issues to do with: (a) base utility [saving]; (b) vagueness about what TW is FOR beyond fiddling with it; (c) and, I think, above all, lack of a strong dedicated Showcase illustrating developed applications of it. That's the easiest way, I think, for potential users to realise what it can do--by seeing final output wiki. Maybe that last thought is for a separate thread.

Basta

TT

[Mohammad]

On Thursday, February 20, 2020 at 2:39:37 PM UTC+3:30, TiddlyTweeter wrote:

  Mohammad wrote:

... So, lets be precise and briefly ... explain why a change name is a bad decision? What is the benefits of keeping current name? If we have enough reasons then we should keep it.

1 - Not Now: Changing name for TW5 now, in mid-version I think might have the unintended consequence of creating confusion. Probably better to do it with a new major shift.

2 - Later, Yes: Changing the name IS a good idea. On that agree with Mark S. "Tiddly" & "Tiddler" are diminutive in a particularly negative way. 

That diminution can't be offset by positive Comparisons with names of "Big things" using "baby words" (e.g. "Google"). That isn't illuminating as those services are So Large they came to Re-Define meaning in actual usage. TiddlyWiki is not in a position to do that--so the name can't have the start-push of being able to redefine words. For many reasons. So the current name is not good.

3 - "Wiki" Is Probably Part Of The Name Problem: Several issues with "wiki": (a) Messy broader negative social resonance with things like "WikiLeaks"; (b) We are not "WikiPedia"; (c) Nor does implying TW is a "type of wiki" going to be illuminating to most people, so I can't see the value now in "wiki" that once more clearly existed, as much of the net has adopted methods pioneered by various wikis & moved on; (d) TW does a lot of things that big-name wikis have no correlate of. 

In short: "wiki" may be a "false friend" that just waters down ideas of what we have in TW.

This is quite true! 

[Grigor]

Thinking of a possible new name, I'd chime in with:

TriadWare Framework 

(TWF.X-1.0.1-alpha TWF.X-3 etc.)

This is my best idea (so far)... And look... No hits! Whatsoever:

https://www.google.com/search?q="triadware"

Was thinking also of: TriadicWare tri.way TriWay TrippleWay Tripl.eWare (quite similar to Tupperware, which I see that is often being abbreviated as TW too :) 

Back to my best idea, the triadic theme would then be developed in the catch phrases / hooks:

Meet the TriadWare Framework : Own it like a document, use it like a website, (and needs a 3rd to complete the triad! Like: program it to your needs (?) etc.)

Meet TriadWare: 

Single file website, database, application 

Portable Programmable Platform

Smart documentation, wiki, (and so on)

Those hooks could be a triad of triads, as above, like in a game of tic tac toe, but I might already be loosing your attention so I'll stop here... 

Well, maybe just this last one (joke?): 

You'll hardly get any treadwear with TriadWare: Rolling fine, in all browsers, since 1997!

-g-

[TonyM]

Grigor,

Triad is closely associated with triad gangs in asia, basically the asian mafia. 

However your idea is compelling with another form of "three", I am looking at tetra from the tetrahedra, the regular version being a triangular pyramid (regular tetrahedron)

The nice thing about a triangular pyramid is also has a base/foundation Ie Based on Internet standard technologies html/css/javascript 

then has three faces application, website and database?

How to connect this with W, well that's another project

Regards

Tony

[Mohammad]

I like both idea with three! triad tetra, ...

As Josiah also described above TW is not a dedicated note taking tool nor a website or personal wiki generator!

so, these suggestions which refer to multi aspects of TW are great!

W can refer to Web, as the app is kind of web program (works in browsers)  or world (the world of paperless, the digital age), ...

--Mohammad

[Ste Wilson]

To circle back to a couple of previous points..

A while ago someone linked to https://www.ryeboard.com/..

It doesn't do most of what tiddlywiki does (work on mobile for example) ... But it looks soooo shiny...

And we are still struggling for a robust multi column drag and drop thingy...

I think that's at least one hurdle. It doesn't 'ping'.

I think the editions thing is also a valuable point. A slick landing page for tiddlywiki.com three editions.. The blank one..hadcore! Build it yourself! The get your website running straight away one which sets you up a tiddly spot or the something like and comes with toc and presents some optional plugins as part of the set up. Finally the slick one... Loaded to the eyeballs with browser/ processor melting eye candy.. a gui for making filters... Bells.. Whistles..!

I think a name change.. Is perhaps not the biggest problem. But.. Because why not.. My suggetions

Just 'TW'. Or THEWiki.. TWorkspace (though sounds a bit like twerk! But could be said in a northern uk accent.. It's on't t'workspace.. :)

Like your tag lines Eric!

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ste Wilson wrote:

 It's on't t'workspace.. :)

Me chuck, that ain't gonna work :-)

TT 

[Ste Wilson]

Just say it like Sean Bean in top o't'wall... ;)

[Mohammad]

Hi Jeremy,

 This post got many discussion and views!

It is good to have your preliminary conclusion and see if any decision should make or not!

--Mohammad

On Monday, February 17, 2020 at 7:42:44 PM UTC+3:30, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

Just to add to Mark's comment: It has been clear for a few years that some users find the terms "TiddlyWiki" and "tiddler" to be a barrier to taking it seriously. In particular, while the word "tiddler" is common and innocent enough in Britain, it appears that for quite a few North American users it carries obscene connotations that they consider self-evident.

There's an example in this recent tweet:

> It's all fun and games until you pass away and your significant other has to log into something called TiddlyWiki and browse through Tiddlers to find your last will testament.

(See https://twitter.com/remembersonly/status/1228729946656428032)

I have recently been thinking through what would be involved in a name change, and am starting to think that it might not be a terrible idea.

In order to understand some of the issues, I made a very simple experiment where I wrote a script that takes the prerelease index.html and applies the following four global search and replacements across the file:

* TiddlyWiki --> FooBarWiki

* tiddlywiki --> foobarwiki

* Tiddler --> Card

* tiddler --> card

The result is a fully functional TiddlyWiki with no remaining references to the words "tiddlywiki" or "tiddler". Not only is the user interface text fixed, the `<$tiddler>` widget becomes the `<$card>` widget, and the `<$tranclude tiddler=foo/>` widget becomes `<$tranclude card=foo/>` etc.

That simple approach is unlikely to be the way that we'd want to approach the name change, but it establishes the technical feasibility of changing the name.

We'd need to provide an upgrade path for existing users. Perhaps we'd keep tiddlywiki.com running for 12 months with a build that uses the terms TiddlyWiki and tiddler, and a separate build at foobarwiki.com with the new terminology. We'd also need a conversion tool for updating individual wikis: we could offer an online tool and a command line option for Node.js.

There's lots of interesting questions to consider before we even try to settle on the new name itself, and I'm interested to hear other views.

* Is it worth the effort of changing the name?

* What are the downsides of doing so?

* Coming up with suggestions for the new name is relatively easy, but what are the criteria that we should use to test the new name? (We wouldn't want to have to change it again)

* Should we seek to keep things simple by choosing a name that retains the TW initials?

Best wishes

Jeremy

Best wishes

--

Jeremy Ruston

jer...@jermolene.com

https://jermolene.com

On 17 Feb 2020, at 15:53, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



These discussions about extending the outreach of TW always center around some hypothetical

newby who is turned away by the complexity of TW. The reality is, that the first time we

learn of the existence of a new comer, they're asking for advice on some complicated,

convoluted mechanism that they've already devised. The technological barrier doesn't seem

to keep motivated people away.

Listen to the Podcast. What's keeping people away is the name.

I know it's irrational to chose an information management system based on a name, but

we live in an age of hyper-marketing -- everything gets marketed, branded, recognized.

So if something is under-branded it goes nowhere no matter how good it is because it's

up against hundreds of products with serious, professional sounding names.

The name TiddlyWiki suggests a kid's game or plaything. It suggests something that

someone made for fun but won't be here tomorrow. It doesn't suggest something that

you could do serious work with or store your vital information in. It doesn't suggest

something that will be here in 25 years.

OneNote, Evernote, Cintanotes, Google Keep ... all have names that you're not afraid

to say in an IT staff meeting. Names you don't have to mumble under your breath

when you explain how you did something. And, you don't have to actually get rid of

the name TiddlyWiki. You just make the publicly visible name something

like "TW Technology."  "Wiki-T" .

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 10:28:06 AM UTC-8, bimlas wrote:

A wave started which could make TiddlyWiki more and more famous. Now we might need to make it really user-friendly, so that new people can easily get over the initial difficulties and stay with Tiddly.

https://hackaday.com/2020/02/14/it-aint-over-til-the-paperwork-is-done-test-driving-tiddlywiki/

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[Mohamed Amin]

I'm not a native English speaker, but his reaction hit me :)

https://youtu.be/qRZeH680XWA?list=PLwPNwdwG1CSryjm77XGK0zj9vDkqlo2XR&t=453

[TonyM]

Mohammad,

For me him calling a record (tiddler) "a post" is clearly that he is blogger and possible wordpress coder. If he thinks that odd, I would ask why pages are also posts in wordpress, in fact most editable records are posts in WordPress.

In tiddlywiki almost every single element can be a tiddler but in wordpress only a specific set of records are easily addressable, so we have more right to generalise the name for our record.

But given tiddlers titles are unique keys and can contain fields (columns) we could call them records (rows) in the way a table or database uses the term, its just that in those cases they are not typically also text content,  macros, display elements, templates etc... as they are in tiddlywiki.

I have come to realise tiddlywiki's strength is that it 

"Places 'THE RECORD' at eye level, in your face, and as the key atomic element"

I am not aware of any other solution that does this.

Why do we have a name such as tiddler for a record in tiddlywiki?

Tiddlers titles are unique keys and can contain fields (columns) we could call them records (rows) in the way a table or database uses the term, its just that in those cases they are not typically also text content,  macros, display elements, templates, buttons and many other items etc... as they are in tiddlywiki.

To capture this difference demands giving them a distinct name. The Tiddler

 

Regards

Tony

[TonyM]

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet

A TiddlyWiki by any other name would be as great.

[Eric Shulman]

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 2:27:42 PM UTC-8, TonyM wrote:

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet

A TiddlyWiki by any other name would be as great.

http://tiddlytools.com/InsideTW/#WhatsInAName

As noted in the link above, a "tiddler" is the nickname for a kind of small fish, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-spined_stickleback

In addition to being small (like a TiddlyWiki tiddler), the stickleback also has other attributes that have metaphorical parallels with TW tiddlers and, while it might seem to some that "tiddler" is just a silly word or even something prurient or unsavory, there's a lot of good qualities implied by the name:

The stickleback "shows great morphological variation"

(TW tiddlers can hold a variety of information types)

The stickleback "lives in seawater but breeds in fresh or brackish water"

(TW tiddlers can be hosted online but developed locally off-line or on shared servers)

The stickleback "displays elaborate breeding behavior"

(TW tiddlers can be combined in numerous ways)

The stickleback "can be social, living in shoals outside the breeding season"

(TW tiddlers can be easily shared with groups of other people; e.g., via JSON exports)

[Eric Shulman]

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 3:46:10 PM UTC-8, Eric Shulman wrote:

... the stickleback also has other attributes that have metaphorical parallels with TW tiddlers

At the risk of stretching the metaphor just a little bit more:

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/shoals-of-sticklebacks-differ-in-their-collective-personalities

"Each TiddlyWiki document is formed from a group of tiddlers that has a distinct and different collective purpose"

-e

[Mark S.]

It doesn't matter what you know. It matters what others think. Case in point,

someone who was fired for using a dictionary word that sounded vaguely like an

offensive word.

No matter what your dictionary or encyclopedia says, most people aren't going

to do the research -- they'll just guess based on phonetic acquaintance.

All that said, StickleWiki would be a pretty cute name.

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 3:46:10 PM UTC-8, Eric Shulman wrote:

[Mohamed Amin]

just for "fun" while I'm searching about the meaning of the "name Tiddler" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcTQADUywZY. 

"Tiddler is telling STORYs with BIG imagination", he blew small bubbles but he told tall tales (this is what "tiddlers" in TW5 do :)) 

again, my english is not good, but I think I'm in love with the "name Tiddler" after this story  

[Birthe C]

@Mohamed Amin,

Exactly, I have always loved that story. (Tiddler is late ;-D )

Others will think it adds to the childish argument though.

@Tony

Roses do not always smell, and I would not want tiddlers to do either - no StinkyWiki for me.

@Mark

What words would not offend someone. Now it seems everybody gets offended all the time. If not offended today then tomorrow or next year.

English is a foreign language to a lot of users and to us it doesn't matter.

On the funny side, you could chose a Danish word, I do not think tiddlywiki has many Danish users, and very few people speaks or read the language. Very few offended then.

Birthe

[Mohammad]

No conclusion yet!

[Mark S.]

Combining two forum issues, people who think that names don't matter should consider the plight of Corona beer:

https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/corona-beer-sales-taking-hit-because-coronavirus-outbreak/ORXV24ZXMZAZDJCBIM7K55MRUE/

[TonyM]

Mark,

It will never impact my Corona Beer drinking. I love the stuff, but don't drink much of anything but that is my choice when I do.

Tony

[Birthe C]

Mark,

I see your point!

I also wonder if people are that stupid, maybe TW would not be the best option for them.

Also there could be other reasons for it. People panic buying lots of other stuff and for most people, beer is nice but not a necessity.

Also if your workplace closes, you get infected, you get quarantined, you will not go to work and not get any pay. I am sure lots of people worry about that too.

Still I do not care about the name for tiddlywiki as long as I am able to use it.

I would like to see some suggestions for what would be considered a good name, that is good all over the world in any language.

Birthe

[Julio Peña]

Mark S. says,

 

All that said, StickleWiki would be a pretty cute name.

A nice variation could also be "StickleNotes". 

Kinda catchy....hmmmm :)

Regards to all,

Julio

[TiddlyTweeter]

Birthe C wrote:

I would like to see some suggestions for what would be considered a good name, that is good all over the world in any language.

BRICOLEUR (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bricoleur)

Emphasis is on practical building of something that is for a purpose. Expresses the flexibility of TW. Emphasizes the activity (Bricolage).

A name does not need to make sense as such in all languages. Merely have "resonance" and minimal negative readings. 

The software itself illustrates the purpose.

Words are difficult to get right. 

I think "bricoleur" in not a bad fit with what a user of TW does with it.

A thought

Josiah