TiddlyWiki Project Name

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Thomas Stone

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Dec 28, 2020, 1:14:43 AM12/28/20
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I couldn't find if this topic has already been re-hashed this decade. But I was wondering if there is any value in discussing alternative names to the "Tiddly" part of the TiddlyWIki project. This project has been around for so long that renaming / rebranding would be quite an effort. And the Tiddly part is unique within programming projects, which helps to eliminate false positives when searching for sample code.

I am an American living on the Pacific Coast, so my linguistic preferences are definitely different from Jeremy's. But just saying the word 'Tiddly' out loud feels like trying to get people from certain Germany dialects to say the word "Squirrel." It always feels forced to me.

A joke by Lt. Commander Data on Star Trek the Next Generation was about someone mispronouncing 'kidneys' as 'kiddleys.' We the store keeper corrected him, the customer contested, "No, I said 'kiddleys.' Diddle I?"

From just a project standpoint, the word 'Tiddly' is trying to focus on the "small amount" of data or code that should be in any one unit. This way many units can be combined in various ways to satisfy different needs. Although it is intended to produce a Wiki-like user interface with deep linking and back references, the way you go about it is by breaking up large pieces of information into re-usable components.

If your goal is to create "tiddlers," then using a TiddlyWiki application would be a natural fit. If the goal of most people is to make small units of re-usable components, then perhaps a different prefix would make it more appealing. Again, this is just a personal opinion and not a slight on the TiddlyWiki project as a whole, which I have been using frequently everyday.

There have been two alternate words kicking around in my head lately. TipWiki or DotWiki.

'Tip' has a very similar double meaning to Tiddly - drunk people can be 'tiddly' or 'tipsy', and just the 'tip' of something or a 'tiddly' amount of something is quite small. There is an additional English meaning of 'tip' to mean 'a small note or suggestion.' That seems to be actually the point of TiddlyWiki: Make lots of small notes that can be re-combined as pieces of many different larger pages. 'Tiddlers' would become 'Tips', and a single 'tiddler' would become a single 'tip.' Phonetically, it feels a lot easier to talk about.

'Dot' has an inherent meaning of 'smallest possible mark or amount.' This would again drive home the concept of making the smallest possible content for any one unit of information. Unfortunately, dots are already associated with the 'dot notation' of Object Oriented Programming, so that could make it a little confusing as to the overall goal for people with software development backgrounds.

The goal of renaming the project would be to push the desire for "smallness" of the individual unit using a more standard English word. Please forgive me if I am pushing anyone's buttons here. This topic was just on my mind. Thank you for your time.

TiddlyTweeter

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Dec 28, 2020, 4:21:50 AM12/28/20
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On Monday, 28 December 2020 at 07:14:43 UTC+1 positiv...@gmail.com wrote:
>> The goal of renaming the project would be to push the desire for "smallness" of the individual unit using a more standard English word. Please forgive me if I am pushing anyone's buttons here. This topic was just on my mind. Thank you for your time.

It is an interesting post. It is quite valid to query naming.

"Tiddly" (small, tiny) & "Tiddler" (literally a very small fish found in British streams and waterways that live in shoals) can be confusing, particularly if you are not British.

That said, I'm hazy, very hazy on what could possibly do better.

IMO "TiddlyWiki" is a pretty good ASSERTION on branding. Like many brands, the name forces the user to delve for salience. IMO "TiddlyWiki" does pretty well asserting itself as it is already. 

The ONE obvious thing, taking TW as a whole eco-system, it really is NOT "tiny", it is VAST in its delivery and scope.

So, how to represent that? Roughly: "From Small Pieces Huge Things Are Born."

Just my thoughts. Though I'd be interested to hear more on potential other ideas.

Best wishes
TT 



Mohammad Rahmani

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Dec 28, 2020, 4:32:45 AM12/28/20
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Hi Thomas,

If you make a search you will find at least two threads discussing the name and rebranding!

One is this long thread
https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/MKVwkEmCimQ/m/AEj6J534AQAJ

I think the person who can make this important decision is Jeremy and I myself respect what he decides to do with name!

BUT I am one of those people highly believe in rebranding this amazing piece of code! One time Jeremy himself proposed to use `card` instead of tiddler.
It may be interesting for you to know I had a workshop on Tiddlywiki in an international congress for researchers and graduate students from the chemical engineering field. Not many people participated in the workshop, but they were amazed with  the enormous features Tiddlywiki has as a research tool. After the workshop many asked about the name and they believed the name is funny and seems like a not serious thing! 

So, my strong belief is Tiddlywiki is an amazing tool, I think TW5 is like 16 years old. You cannot find many tools in web technology to last for such a long time and still be used.
It is very flexible and lends itself to many forms, it works greatly in offline and online mode, ...
So it deserve to have 

- a much better name
- a much better home page
- a much better reputation



Best wishes
Mohammad


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TiddlyTweeter

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Dec 28, 2020, 4:38:14 AM12/28/20
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Ciao positiv...@gmail.com

Small footnote to my last ...

Several times I have suggested that TiddlyWiki is the ULTIMATE BRICOLAGE ENGINE for computers.

Immediately, with "Bricolage", though, you get the same issue as the "Tiddly" language specificity. 

"Bricolage" is a French activity (akin to English D.I.Y.) so not sure its obvious relevance and accuracy would be any better in the end. Though when you look at its meaning it is very close to what we do with TW in practice: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bricolage.

Random thoughts
TT

Jeremy Ruston

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Dec 28, 2020, 4:54:17 AM12/28/20
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Since we last discussed this topic, I've been increasingly thinking that we should indeed make plans to change the name.

The best alternatives I've got are "xememex" for the product, and "card" for the unit of information. I've had the domain xememex.com for a few years and the @xememex user account.

"Xememex" is of course a palindromisation of Vannevar Bush's "memex":

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/303881/

There are many details to consider, but I'd be interested to know people's thoughts.

Best wishes

Jeremy


On 28 Dec 2020, at 09:38, TiddlyTweeter <tiddly...@assays.tv> wrote:


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Jeremy Ruston

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Dec 28, 2020, 5:18:15 AM12/28/20
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Perhaps worth clarifying that "change the name" at its simplest might mean renaming the current TiddlyWiki 5 project to Xememex as of a particular version number. We'd try to maintain backwards compatibility as we normally do, but just lose the terms "TiddlyWiki" and "tiddler".

There are other approaches. We could fork the good parts of TiddlyWiki 5.x into a new project called Xememex that is less constrained by backwards compatibility (eg. targeting more modern JavaScript engines). Both the TiddlyWiki 5 and Xememex projects would proceed independently, allowing end users to defer or avoid switching over.

Thinking about the details that would need resolving, it's clear that the hard part is actually losing the word "tiddler", because we use it so ubiquitously for widget, attribute and variable names.

Best wishes

Jeremy


On 28 Dec 2020, at 09:54, Jeremy Ruston <jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Since we last discussed this topic, I've been increasingly thinking that we should indeed make plans to change the name.

Mohammad Rahmani

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Dec 28, 2020, 5:21:14 AM12/28/20
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Eric Shulman has a phrase: small tools for big ideas!  I think this is the best description and YET the for Tiddlywiki. 

Just my thoughts. Though I'd be interested to hear more on potential other ideas.

Best wishes
TT 



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Mohammad Rahmani

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Dec 28, 2020, 5:35:34 AM12/28/20
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Hi Jeremy,

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 1:48 PM Jeremy Ruston <jeremy> wrote:
Perhaps worth clarifying that "change the name" at its simplest might mean renaming the current TiddlyWiki 5 project to Xememex as of a particular version number. We'd try to maintain backwards compatibility as we normally do, but just lose the terms "TiddlyWiki" and "tiddler".

There are other approaches. We could fork the good parts of TiddlyWiki 5.x into a new project called Xememex that is less constrained by backwards compatibility (eg. targeting more modern JavaScript engines). Both the TiddlyWiki 5 and Xememex projects would proceed independently, allowing end users to defer or avoid switching over.

If I can vote for this, I will prefer your second approach. Fork the good parts of Tiddlywiki 5.x into a new project! I am sure, there are users who do not like to experience any change and I believe in democracy! Keep them happy and supported, but let targeting targeting more modern JavaScript engines and have an agile new TW called Xememex.

I do not know the pronunciation of Xememex. How do you pronounce it and what is the meaning?
Also, is it possible to propose other names?

 


 
Thinking about the details that would need resolving, it's clear that the hard part is actually losing the word "tiddler", because we use it so ubiquitously for widget, attribute and variable names.

Best wishes

Jeremy


Thank you
Mohammad


 

Mat

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Dec 28, 2020, 5:59:09 AM12/28/20
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Well, then. My absolutely best proposal is:

QuineCards

It partly says what TW is but still invites for further questions and curiosity.
AFAICT it is unregistered.
And the round and friendly initials should make it easy to create a logo.
I think it is spot on.  
 
<:-)

Jeremy Ruston

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Dec 28, 2020, 6:10:50 AM12/28/20
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Every time this topic comes up we end up going round in circles with people proposing new names. Let’s try to avoid that, it just gets in the way of the much more complex discussion that we actually need about why and how we want to do this.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

Glenn Dixon

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Dec 28, 2020, 6:58:49 AM12/28/20
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If xememex is the only alternative, then stick with the current name. At least you never have to explain how to pronounce it or spell it.

Saq Imtiaz

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Dec 28, 2020, 7:02:18 AM12/28/20
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Hi Jeremy,
 
There are other approaches. We could fork the good parts of TiddlyWiki 5.x into a new project called Xememex that is less constrained by backwards compatibility (eg. targeting more modern JavaScript engines). Both the TiddlyWiki 5 and Xememex projects would proceed independently, allowing end users to defer or avoid switching over.

As appealing as this sounds, I just don't think that as a small community we have the resources to support both, unless the intention would be for TiddlyWiki 5 to only receive bug fix updates. 

As you mention in a later reply, the real challenge is replacing the word tiddler. I remember trying this in Classic and it wasn't easy then and is probably even harder now with all the widget attributes etc. Which makes me wonder if this would really be the best use of our time and resources?

Cheers,
Saq

Mat

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Dec 28, 2020, 7:02:42 AM12/28/20
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Jeremy Ruston wrote:
Every time this topic comes up we end up going round in circles with people proposing new names. Let’s try to avoid that, it just gets in the way of the much more complex discussion that we actually need about why and how we want to do this.

Fair enuff (but the thread title certainly invites for this).

Could you elaborate more on what "...that is less constrained by backwards compatibility" means? To start off, do you (merely) mean it as an opportunity to make a one time correction of some past mistakes or do you mean a change in philosophy, i.e to let go of the "backward compatibility"-effort with a version that is more open to continuous backward breaking changes (like most other software is)? 

A (very) important aspect that I hope can be kept in mind when major functionality changes are considered, is how the very biggest concepts like federation could be enabled and some solution to the huge problem we have with infrastructure for dispersing plugins.

<:-)

Jeremy Ruston

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Dec 28, 2020, 7:11:32 AM12/28/20
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Hi Glenn

If xememex is the only alternative, then stick with the current name. At least you never have to explain how to pronounce it or spell it.

All I'm trying to point out is that even though it's fun to think up new names, every time we get to the point where people are just shouting out their own suggestions for new names we never get to the point of discussing the things that need to be discussed. I can understand that superficially the challenge might look like choosing the new name, but I'm trying to point out that that is not the difficult part of the plan.

Best wishes

Jeremy



Jeremy Ruston

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Dec 28, 2020, 7:21:32 AM12/28/20
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Jeremy Ruston wrote:
Every time this topic comes up we end up going round in circles with people proposing new names. Let’s try to avoid that, it just gets in the way of the much more complex discussion that we actually need about why and how we want to do this.

Fair enuff (but the thread title certainly invites for this).

Yes, that's rather why I was trying to point the discussion away from that direction.

Could you elaborate more on what "...that is less constrained by backwards compatibility" means? To start off, do you (merely) mean it as an opportunity to make a one time correction of some past mistakes

Yes, exactly that. It's something we've talked about repeatedly, either in the context of v5.2.x or v6.

or do you mean a change in philosophy, i.e to let go of the "backward compatibility"-effort with a version that is more open to continuous backward breaking changes (like most other software is)? 

I think you'll find that most software avoids breaking backwards compatibility as far as possible because to do otherwise is intensely user hostile. Take a moment to imagine what TiddlyWiki would be like if we didn't rigorously maintain backwards compatibility where we can. Imagine if upgrading sometimes just didn't work and then when you asked for help you were told that it was an intentional policy of the project.

Best wishes

Jeremy


<:-)

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Jeremy Ruston

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Dec 28, 2020, 7:52:20 AM12/28/20
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As appealing as this sounds, I just don't think that as a small community we have the resources to support both, unless the intention would be for TiddlyWiki 5 to only receive bug fix updates. 

I think that would be the default, yes, unless somebody wanted to pick up the development more purposefully.

As you mention in a later reply, the real challenge is replacing the word tiddler. I remember trying this in Classic and it wasn't easy then and is probably even harder now with all the widget attributes etc. Which makes me wonder if this would really be the best use of our time and resources?

That is indeed one of the critical questions.

Over the years we've had consistent feedback on the name "TiddlyWiki" that ranges between:

* I don't care about the name, it's just a meaningless string of letters
* I think the name is fine, it's distinctive, and has few false positives when Googling
* I think the name diminishes TiddlyWiki
* I think the name is a thinly veiled obscenity

That last category is undoubtedly a minority, but it's a very consistently and forcefully expressed opinion when it does come up. I used to think that view said more about the people holding it than anything else. But the trouble is that I'm too close to the thing: the name "TiddlyWiki" is my little piece of wordplay, and I'm attached to it. I think maybe that might hold for many of us who have invested time and effort in the project. So I have to pay attention to feedback that comes from a different perspective, because I'm never going to be able to assume that perspective myself.

The other consideration in all of this is my desire to modernise the design of TW5 and establish a new baseline for backwards compatibility. After 10 years, it's becoming increasingly limiting to live with some of the early design decisions of TW5 (a lot of which are pretty arcane - for example, "tiddlerfield" modules). I believe we would make faster and more decisive progress if we lost some of that baggage.

The idea of modernising the core relates to the naming change because another bit of feedback that I received back in 2011-13 was that it was a mistake to reuse the name TiddlyWiki for the new project. Many people felt that it was unnecessarily confusing to have two distinct products with the same name, and struggled with my perspective that TWC and TW5 were different versions of the same thing.

So, what I learned from all of the above is that names for communal things are tricky. People have strong opinions because they feel they have a stake. The thing that is particularly tricky is trying to change what an existing name means if the previous meaning is entrenched in the community.

In other words, I think TiddlyWiki 5 is ripe for such a thorough internal overhaul that changing the names might not be as much of a practical consideration as it would be if we had to maintain backwards compatibility.

Best wishes

Jeremy.



Cheers,
Saq

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Glenn Dixon

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Dec 28, 2020, 8:30:19 AM12/28/20
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TiddlyWiki Classic
TiddlyWiki 5

I think you are right in that, if this was an effort to distinguish, it is perhaps a bit lacking. While we're at it, maybe take up the naming scheme that many other projects use? Everyone seems to understand that MacOS Catalina and MacOS Big Sur are significantly different versions of the same underlying OS. They also seem to understand that backwards compatibility has limits. This would hold true whether or not you retain a reference to TiddlyWiki in the product name or not.

So Mac OS "number" to Mac OS X "number" to Mac OS X "number" "name" to the point where now people just say "Mac OS "name" " and rarely mention the X or the number.

So maybe "newname" by itself to start, then "newname: versionname" where the version number is tracked but not part of the branding. Keep the numbering scheme out of it, something only developers really care about. I have to say that I do really see value in dropping any reference whatsoever to 'wiki' in the name. That would help broaden the appeal to cover memex, second brain, digital garden, commonplace, Zettelkasten, etc.

Saq Imtiaz

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Dec 28, 2020, 9:34:09 AM12/28/20
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Jeremy,

In other words, I think TiddlyWiki 5 is ripe for such a thorough internal overhaul that changing the names might not be as much of a practical consideration as it would be if we had to maintain backwards compatibility.

I think this makes perfect sense. At first I was thinking we just meant smaller changes when discussing breaking some backward compatibility in 5.2.x or 6.x, where a few select things might break or be different. 

However, if we truly want to use this as an opportunity to modernize and also revise some architectural decisions (like field definitions!), then indeed renaming "tiddler" becomes much easier to accomplish at the same time. I do think we need to start planning such a move as some of that early baggage is indeed weighing down further development.

Such pervasive changes also suggests the need for a clearer demarcation from TW5 than calling it TW5.2 or TW6 would provide. TiddlyWiki 6, in my opinion, would suggest it just a newer version of TiddlyWiki 5 that one can just upgrade to. So a product name change could easily be accomplished at the same time.

One other consideration, though this should not be a decisive one, is that recently we have been very fortunate to have a lot of momentum in terms of developers contributing to the core. It would be good if at all possible, to leverage that momentum towards this end, rather than let it be something that might kill that momentum. On the other hand, architectural changes and refactoring is often best accomplished by a single focused mind, at least at first. So there may not be much that can be done about it. Just knowing that there is a breaking version in the works will naturally subdue the enthusiasm to keep working on the current core, unless there is some assurance the work can be re-used, which might be tricky. A tentative timeline for the new version may also help.

These are just some of the practical considerations that come to mind, which I guess is my way of expressing my support for the idea of both a breaking change to refresh the core, as well as a rename to differentiate from TiddlyWiki 5.

Regards,
Saq



Mark S.

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Dec 28, 2020, 9:58:40 AM12/28/20
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On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 4:02:18 AM UTC-8  wrote:

As you mention in a later reply, the real challenge is replacing the word tiddler. I remember trying this in Classic and it wasn't easy then and is probably even harder now with all the widget attributes etc. Which makes me wonder if this would really be the best use of our time and resources?


xemes 

Stobot

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Dec 28, 2020, 10:51:01 AM12/28/20
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I know Jeremy's trying to not make this all name related - but not being a developer, don't think I can contribute to that part of the conversation. I agree that it would seem logical to use a new name with a new significant version, though I also agree that development has been so healthy lately that I worry about that momentum starting because of a looming re-design on the core.

With that, on naming... :)
  • I agree and have experienced that the "Tiddly" / "Tiddler" naming is a barrier for me to sell others on the software - doesn't seem serious
  • I agree that "Wiki" in general undervalues what TiddlyWiki is these days. I agree with others who consider TW more of a "platform". For example I use it as a competitor to Microsoft PowerApps.
  • I really like "card" - that's what I use when explaining TiddlyWiki already and is totally self-explanatory given how it appears on screen. Plays well with the various metaphors of virtual card boxes.
  • I like "memex" after reading a bit about it. I agree that one concern is that it's not obvious how to pronounce it...
    • Related - Even if I knew how to pronounce it, I could tell them the name and they may not know the spelling even close enough to even find with google - which could be problematic
    • Maybe something else memex related but something that's more intuitive to spell / pronounce? MemexCards, MemexDeck, MyMemex, MemexPlatform, MemexPro, TheMemex

Thomas Stone

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Dec 28, 2020, 8:34:47 PM12/28/20
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The uniqueness of "xememex" is nice for making sure I find the sample code for just the new project. That is the only real concern I would have about renaming: Making sure search engine results can be refined easily.

Although I personally agree that the project title word is just a random string of letters that I can copy-paste as a prefix for my search query, I personally dislike the repetition of letters in xememex. Although xemex.com com is already taken by a watch company, perhaps we could take advantage of some other TDL like xemex.dev on which browsers now require HTTPS communication.

I agree wirh Stobot that 'Wiki' isn't a buzzword today and doesn't sound that professional. Knowledgebase abbreviated as KB is ubiquitous. Perhaps a rebrand focus could be Xememex Quine KB. This sums up where to go, why it is unique, and why you would want to use it. (Thanks to Matt for the suggestion.)

Saying 'cards' is in the project name would be focusing on the implementation details instead of the user's overall problem. Cards can solve the problem, but that is just a necessay evil. An easy to update and re-link KB is their end goal. Perhaps some project concept abbreviations could be XM code in a QKB file?

I do like the unit identity of "card" because it is unlikely to actually be in the content of anyone's actual documents or code. It is easy to find all such references, and isn't a sub-part of other common English words. It is very short to type, which is probably my biggest gripe about the 'currentTiddler' variable. It is used so often, I would really appreciate 'curCard' for the next iteration.

I have been going through the documentation to learn how to create a working example of each individual option in TW. Just scratching the surface I keep running into 'depreciated' examples. A new fork for Xememex is definitely what I would desire. TWC is still being used today on old and current browsers. TW5 will continue to be used 15 years from now. Applying all the lessons learned to a separate project should make a clean break and require the minimum of today's latest browsers' functionality. Older browsers - if they must be used - will still work with the other projects.

A focus on support for internationalization right out of the gate would also help. Just recently, Jeremy said trying to support field names with non-ASCII Unicode characters would be very complex under-the-hood. Making a clean re-design will help others to write cards and metadata in their own language much easier. 

The hardest part of rebranding - as Mozilla well knows - is keeping the current project being able to support the latest fads instead of truly halting development for two years. I don't have any suggestions other than deciding the new project will only focus on implementing the existing TW5.1.23 features, and any new features will have to be brought in during a second round of updates after the base project is released.

I only have two pleadings for improvements:

1) Please include some kind of string literal escape codes so we can use [ ], " ', etc. characters within filters without worrying about whether the query can succeeed. It would be like the !--html comment-- tag where all data inside is treated as non-code. Most people won't use these operation characters in card, tag or field names. Power users should have some method that consistently allows for them.

2) Please try to make at least one practical example of every single keyword. I am constantly trying to figure out how to use keywords mentioned on TW.com but don't actually have any concrete implementation to see why it would be useful. Counter examples would also be nice.

Suzanne McHale

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Dec 28, 2020, 11:17:51 PM12/28/20
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How about "Tidwiki" - "tid" from tidbit (a small morsel). Very similiar to Tiddlywiki (a name I don't have any problem with, incidentally), just shorter, and single Tidwikis could still be Tiddlers. "Xememex" does not appeal; obscure and hard to remember.

Charlie Veniot

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Dec 29, 2020, 12:48:10 AM12/29/20
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G'day all,

To me, product renaming/rebranding has high risk of becoming that product's kiss of death.

High risk, low benefit.

Take Wikipedia, for example.   Changing the name of that would be, I think, a brutally bad idea.

Mark S.

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Dec 29, 2020, 1:28:38 AM12/29/20
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But wikipedia is a successful brand known to everyone and with a name with no known bad connotations.

TiddlyWiki hasn't really taken off and will not lose significant share. In one of the largest english speaking countries on the planet, "Tiddly..." carries the connotation of "play thing" and "tiddler" is easily mistaken for a word meaning ... oh never mind. Let's just say, it doesn't mean "small fish", which is usually "Minnow" as anyone who's watched Gilligan's Island knows.

Mark S.

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Dec 29, 2020, 1:32:53 AM12/29/20
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Xememex contains only 3 letters, arranged to spell the same forward and back. How hard could that be to remember?

Speaking of not appealing, I remember be astonished as a kid that Exxon had spent thousands (millions ?) developing it's name. It only got worse after the Exxon Valdez (which, BTW, was rebranded).

Michael Wiktowy

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Dec 29, 2020, 1:38:51 AM12/29/20
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On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 8:52:20 AM UTC-4 jeremy...@gmail.com wrote:
That is indeed one of the critical questions.

Over the years we've had consistent feedback on the name "TiddlyWiki" that ranges between:

* I don't care about the name, it's just a meaningless string of letters
* I think the name is fine, it's distinctive, and has few false positives when Googling
* I think the name diminishes TiddlyWiki
* I think the name is a thinly veiled obscenity

I have struggled over the years trying to convince people of the serious benefit that can be had from "this thing I use with a silly name" and undoubtedly, at times, the name has been a bit of a hindrance in winning people over. However, in the end, I have concluded that it doesn't really matter. I don't think that a TiddlyWiki is a meaningless string of letters but the vast majority of end-users aren't going to care what the programming language/platform is called ... they just want to use the output to do their particular tasks. So I have switched to selling people on the output of the tool since they are more than likely not going to look too deeply under the curtain to the inner sausage-factory that is a TiddlyWiki widget. Now I normally just refer to the "Relevant Output Tool" made from the "Wiki tool that I like to use" or a "Wiki system that uses open web standards" and hope that they find the end result useful. If they don't, it wouldn't matter if it had a sexy name.

Javascript itself is a goofy and confusing name ... which went thorough some renaming of its own (Mocha -> Livescript -> Javascript) to get to a goofy and confusing name? There are no shortage of goofily named things that are successful: Git, Rust, Yahoo, Google, Amazon. But they become less goofy when people see the value and utility of them.

So while I used to be in the "change-the-name-so-I-find-it-less-embarrasing-to-say-to-my-boss" camp, I am now in the "make-it-indispensible-so-it-doesn't-matter-to-the-end-user-what-it-is-called" camp. Efforts are best directed at making it easy and powerful to use and allowing the particular terminology or branding to fade completely into the background for those who don't care about how things are made. Just like most people don't care that their houses are composed of Studs, Weeping Tiles, Footings, Slips, Bargeboards, Kite Winders, Quoin, Scuncheons, Escutcheons, Scuttles ... they just want them to work and keep them from the elements.

/Mike

arun babu

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Dec 29, 2020, 5:41:06 AM12/29/20
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I think modernization of TW should be the priority and it’s better to make use of the current momentum among developers and contributors for that. New project will naturally help in getting more reach for the software. Rebranding can be done at the time of launch of new software.  For the time being use Xememex as code name of the modernization project and give alpha / beta software under xememex brand name at regular intervals for feedback in google group. As we use the new name frequently, we will obviously get to know whether the new name will have appeal among masses. Even a poll can be conducted among the user for feedback about the new name during the development period.

I will share some of my understandings about TW( though not related to this thread). Actually TW in its current state is very powerful if one understand the core features correctly and if we know where / how to use it in daily use. I am not saying I know every core features. I am still learning. The problem is that most of the new users won’t try to go through the documentation properly to understand TW. Then they will see some YouTube videos on TW, which in my opinion just show the basics alone. So they will conclude TW won’t suit them. UI might be turn off for some. But in my case, I find TW interface to be the best for maximizing my output. But I have used some plug ins to customize the UI of my TW. I like my customized TW more than any of the new crowd pulling note taking apps. But it took some effort from my part to reach that state. Everyone may not be willing to spend much time to customize their wiki. Recently I had posted in one discourse forum called “Productivists” regarding TW https://www.theproductivists.club/t/tiddlywiki-for-note-taking/121. The reply I got was surprising. They acknowledged the power of TW, but don't use TW for their note taking.

May be a there should be an official community website or blog built upon TW itself with a group of moderators for it. Plug in creators should submit their plug ins to be shown in this site with demonstration of real life examples regarding its usage. Also there should be real life examples of core features also. There should be an option for users to do experimental installation of plug ins which they wish to use as in Tones Playground. This should be shown in the welcome page of main website TW so that new users can see it easily. Modernization along with such steps will definitely will increase the appeal of TW to masses. Wishing for the best for TW!

Charlie Veniot

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Dec 29, 2020, 9:13:16 AM12/29/20
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"Xememex" to me sounds like a name for a pharmaceutical company.

Or a drug.

Maybe I'd be fine with something like that as an add-on to the name TW.  A bit like "Debian Sarge", "Debian Buster", "Debian Sid"

The name "TiddlyWiki" makes it so easy to find anything in the related body of knowledge.  "Xememex" won't lead to all things TiddlyWiki that can be found on the web.

"TW Xememex", the long version being : "TiddlyWiki Xememex".  That could be the best of all worlds.

The challenge of TiddlyWiki and broad acceptance isn't resistance for the cutesy "Tiddly" or cutesy "Wiki" .

There was once a saying: "you don't get fired for choosing IBM."  Today, I'm thinking: "you don't get fired for choosing Microsoft."  Changing TW (TiddlyWiki) to anything else won't matter much when corporate types are likely more interested in picking solutions that look good on their own resumes.

To me, I wouldn't try convincing folk of using "TiddlyWiki" as a solution to a problem.  TiddlyWiki is the platform with which I would build the solution.  The name I then give to the solution is what I use.  The name is different for every solution.

Something like that.  I've got some complicated picture of it all in my head, and putting that into concise and elegant words will need a few more cups of coffee in me ...

Pedro

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Dec 29, 2020, 9:32:30 AM12/29/20
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I would like to give my 2 cents to this rebranding discussion by agreeing with Charlie Veniot that "Xememex" sounds like a name for a drug. If it is the overall consent that "TiddlyWiki" is a bad name that diminishes the product, I'm confused how "Xememex" would help in that sense. I'm probably missing something here, and maybe "Xememex" sounds better to native english speakers, but I could probably convince my colleagues to use "TiddlyWiki", and they would have an idea about what this software is about just by hearing the name, but they would be completely lost if they hear "Xememex".

If a rebranding is important, and if it requires a new name for the product instead of just changing logos, colors, and stuff like that, then we need a simpler word. For instance, some days ago I found a project built upon TiddlyWiki called "Projectify". The name is simple and anyone would have an idea what it is about just by reading it. If the name must be changed, then we should pick something easier to digest.


----------
Pedro Alves

PhD candidate in Computer Science
Institute of Computing - University of Campinas



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TW Tones

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Dec 29, 2020, 9:03:31 PM12/29/20
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Interesting and well considered commentary in this thread.

  • Sadly TiddlyWiki has trouble being taken seriously, friends think I am obsessed with something, no more complex than "tiddly Winks" (this annoys me but is true). They rarely hear Wiki.  

Some points from my view. I delight in any form of naming competition, but here I share some of the tricks of the trade rather than offer a particular name; I hope you believe me when I say I have somewhat of a knack here, not to choose, but to generate.
  1. Never loose tiddlywiki altogether even after rebranding keep it in the search content, tracking its history is critical to retaining its legacy.
  2. As I have said before combining additional words can raise the seriousness eg "TiddlyWiki Platform" TWP is not suggesting a trivial game
  3. Rather than change the name you could change the catch phrase "a non-linear personal web notebook" and introduce a new name (initially) "My Non-linear Knowledge base" (MyNKB) or network MyKN or simply MyKnowledge
  4. It is safer to release a new name next to the old eg;  Xememex next generation tiddlywiki [platform] until the new name is established and linked to tiddlywiki in many searches.
  5. In Australia the song "from little things, big things grow" (FLTBTG), I feel it is somewhere down this path we may need to go
  6. Both  Xememex even Timimi  blur in my mind and remind me when "Prince" was a symbol, somewhat unpronounceable, or a mouthful. Any brand should roll off the tongue and be unambiguous.
    1. I have my own brand as an example 121c try saying it, each syllable follows the last. "one two one c" stands for "one to one, connections"
  7. Sitting on top of existing trends may be smart, as  Xememex implies today we have the "meme" so I wonder if it were the memeDB,  memeticDB , where meme implies a small idea, that can spread and evolve. Is DB common enough, or too technical? Perhaps calling tiddlers memes would work?
  8. Alternatively a word built from a phrase that has being made into an acronym,  can help especially if the full phrase is invoked on reading. Even if you choose a word then retrospectively convert it to a phrase, the phrase, if good, the meaning will exist behind it as an "aid memoir".  
  9. If we are not suggesting tiddlywiki is a repository of knowledge or algorithms, I think it needs to reflect action or interactions. InteractDB InteractWiki actionmemes  
  10. Ownership is an importantly part of tiddlyWiki MyMemes or MyDB (urban dictionary My Dam Business), perhaps sanitised (replace dam eg Data base),   MyMemeDB, but its also a knowledge network  MyKnowledgeNetwork  MyKN mykn like F.kn? MyMemeKN, KnowledgeMine 
  11. Single common letter prefixes, Tiddlywiki is intelligent, iMemes Intelligent Memes, is creative CDB creative DB, myCDB myCmemeDB  
  12. It is a wiki, but if its meaning is less favoured hide it as an initial W, WWork WikiWork
  13. Is tiddlywiki a sandbox for apps, ideas and websites?
    1. MySandBox build your own sand castles, memecastles castlememes, MyCastles MySandCastles My.S.C.
    2. This suggests playful but serious?
  14. TiddlyWiki promises an uncompromised future of possibilities BlueSkyDB BlueSkyKN where blue sky is an open future KN knowledge network, or Knowledge and Notes.
  15. Community is one of tiddlywikis strengths, perhaps that can be part of it? Knowledge Community MyKC or Collaboration Network? MyCN
  16. TiddlyWiki can model many algorithms which are increasingly used in every day language MyAlgorithiums MyKAN "my Knowledge and Algorithm Network"
  17. Remember really large organisations are forced to have unique names, but try and avoid meaning in the name so as not to hide the complexity of there products and services, this is not what tiddlywiki could do, it could embrace its openness and opportunities.
  18. What about a corrupted phrase, rather than "Infinite Regression" use "Infinite Expansion" ? 
Yours thoughtfully
Tones

Thomas Stone

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Dec 29, 2020, 11:02:18 PM12/29/20
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Thanks for all the great responses. I agree with Arun Babu that the modernization of TiddlyWiki is in a separate project would be great to have, and rebranding would be helpful to that end.

I also agree with Charlie Veniot that the current project's name is NOT a problem. Everyone who I talk to hears the title and skips immediately over to: "Ok. Now what's in it for me."

My problem with using TiddlyWiki is in trying to explain to anyone reading the documentation about the word Tiddler. Every other programming language uses objects and properties, tables and columns, forms and fields, code and variables. TiddlyWiki use "tiddlers," which immediately shuts down any productive conversation with anyone who has done any programming in any language. It may be cute the first couple of times you come across it, but having it shoved into every piece of documentation and every basic piece of code is incredibly dissonant.

I was suggesting a rebrand merely because I could not imagine the community being willing to give up using the "tiddler" unit name. Looking through the above conversations, I now realize that rebranding is too complicated to get underway in short order.

Please can we consider just implementing "card" as the unit name in the next version of TiddlyWiki. It is just renaming one word in the documentation and making a synonym for the currentTiddler variable. Then "currentTiddler" can just become a side-note in the documentation somewhere for historical reference. 100% backward compatible, and a ton less friction when trying to get others involved with using the project.

Charlie Veniot

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Dec 29, 2020, 11:41:23 PM12/29/20
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Myself, I'm rather a fan of, kind of attached to, the word "tiddler" and all the goodness the word represents semantically/philosophically.

Every time I create a tiddler, "tiddler" immediately puts me in the philosophical mindset while in the process of creating/writing/organizing.

TiddlyTweeter

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Dec 30, 2020, 6:00:36 AM12/30/20
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Ciao Jeremy 

I get the point that meandering over all possible names ain't helpful.

And I also LIKE the general idea that our tool is dealing with FUNDAMENTAL SEMANTIC ARCHITECTURAL re-composition at will ... In other words, basically our tool explores and refoliates the nature of information retrieval and organisation via the Net ... 

And that REMAINS an open-ended project. It is that ROOTING of our tool in that problematic (Bush's) I find both fascinating and very enlightening.

And that is WHY I'd prefer MEMEX / XEMEMEX type name over other options ... simply because it roots the problematic back into Vannevar Bush's superb insights (and prior to the Berner-Lee production steps) of the nature of the problem (indexing human memory = memex).

Regarding scope. Well, I'd roughly say we have our tool as an ENGINE FOR MAKING new tools. But also our tool is ALSO the TOOLS MADE. It is that recursive "Quine-ish" thing I think can be most hard to grasp or communicate. The Maker is also The Made.

Where we, overall on promotion, are likely lacking is more explicit promotion of Tools Made rather than the Tool-Maker. We do lack thorough SHOWCASING.

In that sense there is more than one aspect to deriving a compelling moniker. IMO we need promote both Maker and The Made. 

But Jeremy, thanks so much for bearing the weight forward. I really do feel your connection back to the "big problem" --- one that TW/xememex is, basically, still always facing and dealing with.

Best wishes
TT

David Gifford

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Dec 30, 2020, 10:21:13 AM12/30/20
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wow

the things i miss when i go on a short trip. my input, which everyone will just proceed to ignore:

1. I think forking is a good idea if there is going to be a big overhaul. I am in favor of making things easier for those who design and develop this wonder of technology, even though it means fatigue for me: more moving stuff to a new system, more learning curve, more waiting for the new system to get all or most of the goodies from the previous system.

2. I support 'card' or 'notecard' as a  replacement for 'tiddler'. Notecardnet.com, Notecardgen.com, Notecardsystem.com and Notecardweb.com look like they might be available. Which I find utterly amazing.

3. If the goal is to do all the work of overhauling TW for nothing and continue to limit TW to the same small group of programming aficionados and a few odd stragglers like myself, then by all means, use xememex, but if your goal is to try to open TW to a wider market, reconsidering the name is important.

a) I had the same thought as others, that xememex it sounds like Zantac or some similar drug. If you have side effects after using Xememex, please consult with your doctor.
b) Some of you may get all feely thinking about Memex and Vannevar Bush. I think most people will just assume the word Memex has to do with some old outdated technology like mimeographs or something you use with those old punch cards that my Aunt Linda used to bring home from her computing job in the early 70s. That will be offputting just as TiddlyWiki is.
c) I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade or be negative or resistant to change. I am just trying to offer a perspective others might not have thought of. Avoid anything that doesn't roll off the tongue or that has negative associations (outdated is not something you want people to think of when they hear the name of your product).

FWIW. Blessings.



On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 12:14:43 AM UTC-6 positiv...@gmail.com wrote:
I couldn't find if this topic has already been re-hashed this decade. But I was wondering if there is any value in discussing alternative names to the "Tiddly" part of the TiddlyWIki project. This project has been around for so long that renaming / rebranding would be quite an effort. And the Tiddly part is unique within programming projects, which helps to eliminate false positives when searching for sample code.

I am an American living on the Pacific Coast, so my linguistic preferences are definitely different from Jeremy's. But just saying the word 'Tiddly' out loud feels like trying to get people from certain Germany dialects to say the word "Squirrel." It always feels forced to me.

A joke by Lt. Commander Data on Star Trek the Next Generation was about someone mispronouncing 'kidneys' as 'kiddleys.' We the store keeper corrected him, the customer contested, "No, I said 'kiddleys.' Diddle I?"

From just a project standpoint, the word 'Tiddly' is trying to focus on the "small amount" of data or code that should be in any one unit. This way many units can be combined in various ways to satisfy different needs. Although it is intended to produce a Wiki-like user interface with deep linking and back references, the way you go about it is by breaking up large pieces of information into re-usable components.

If your goal is to create "tiddlers," then using a TiddlyWiki application would be a natural fit. If the goal of most people is to make small units of re-usable components, then perhaps a different prefix would make it more appealing. Again, this is just a personal opinion and not a slight on the TiddlyWiki project as a whole, which I have been using frequently everyday.

There have been two alternate words kicking around in my head lately. TipWiki or DotWiki.

'Tip' has a very similar double meaning to Tiddly - drunk people can be 'tiddly' or 'tipsy', and just the 'tip' of something or a 'tiddly' amount of something is quite small. There is an additional English meaning of 'tip' to mean 'a small note or suggestion.' That seems to be actually the point of TiddlyWiki: Make lots of small notes that can be re-combined as pieces of many different larger pages. 'Tiddlers' would become 'Tips', and a single 'tiddler' would become a single 'tip.' Phonetically, it feels a lot easier to talk about.

'Dot' has an inherent meaning of 'smallest possible mark or amount.' This would again drive home the concept of making the smallest possible content for any one unit of information. Unfortunately, dots are already associated with the 'dot notation' of Object Oriented Programming, so that could make it a little confusing as to the overall goal for people with software development backgrounds.

The goal of renaming the project would be to push the desire for "smallness" of the individual unit using a more standard English word. Please forgive me if I am pushing anyone's buttons here. This topic was just on my mind. Thank you for your time.

Aidan Grey

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Dec 30, 2020, 11:02:42 AM12/30/20
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reading and mostly staying quiet, but...

Hate Xememex (is that the right number of ms and xes). How do I pronounce it? Not terribly concerned with the architectural provenance and meaning, and I think the nitpicking here is less helpful. Rebrand, for aforementioned reasons, is reasonable, but there's overthinking. 

I also think that folding all that thought into an acronym that does double duty would be better. Honor the thinkers, but do it in a way that is transparent and irrelevant unless someone wants to look there, because day to day, practically, the high theory isn't why people use TW.

PicoWiki. PicoCard. Picard! That's what I came to say :)



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Osin

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Dec 30, 2020, 11:17:47 AM12/30/20
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My disjointed 2 cents:

The names "TiddlyWiki" and "Tiddler" got a few chuckles from my manager when I proposed it as a solution for an internal Wiki/Knowledge Base, then we moved on. It's a funny and unique name, but I don't think it's necessarily that bad once that initial bump has been passed over. Now I just say "Wiki". I didn't know Wiki was perceived as outdated. So in that sense, I agree with whoever gave the example of construction jargon.

My first reaction to "xememex" was to re-read it a few times to figure out how to read it (granted, I barely slept and haven't had coffee yet). It is easy to type once I figured out where to put the e and the m and the x, but that's the only benefit to the current name. People pronounce GIF two ways as well, so maybe the pronunciation aspect of it isn't as bad. How often would one communicate the name in writing vs speech? "Meme" screams funny images with text, but that connotation might just be a fad.

That being said, reading through the replies, I feel that the renaming brainstorm is focusing on power-users and developers as the "target audience". What is being sought exactly with the name change? To make people in the google group like the name and make things easier for the devs, or popularize the platform? I think defining this needs to be a priority before starting to brainstorm names. In that sense, maybe crowdfunding and paying a branding/communication consultant might be something to consider? It reminds me of a time when software engineers made design decisions, before UX Research was a thing. I say this as a non-programmer outsider-type who is just interested in organizing his crap, slowly trying to wrap my head around TW.

I tried to brainstorm in vain. I thought that maybe keeping the "TW" in some shape or form would make sense (TW+Quine=Twine? [already exists] qTwine? Qwine?) or keeping the "Tid" part, "Wiktid'? It could be even used as a verb: "I wiktid my thoughts". "Let me wiktid what you just said". As you can see, my brain cells are starting to give out.

Ed Heil

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Dec 30, 2020, 11:47:20 AM12/30/20
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Data point from a fairly new (<1y) user.

"Tiddlywiki" and "tiddler" stopped sounding weird to me very quickly.  Renaming "because there's something inherently wrong with the name" seems silly to me.

Renaming because of a new baseline codebase/breaking changes?  that makes more sense.  It does make me sad for the existing TW5 codebase with all the incredible work that's gone into the code itself and to plugins (like Tiddlymap!  Tiddlymap is so amazing!  Would it be ported over?  It's the best!).  And worried about stuff being left behind.

In accordance with Jeremy's wishes, I hereby have no opinion whatsoever about what a good new name would be. :)

One thing I would be actually concerned about, is what a new codebase would do in terms of "minimum browser version needed."  It's fun to chase the new JS technology available by default in newer browsers, but it would be a real shame to exclude people with old browsers any more than was necessary.

odin...@gmail.com

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Dec 30, 2020, 12:24:59 PM12/30/20
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Thoughts from a non-coding user that has learned some wikitext/html/css over the past year to customize his tiddlywiki:

If the goal is to attract a wider audience/more people to use TiddlyWiki, namechanging itself won't be enough I think. I agree what is said before on the name itself not really being a thing, if the app can do your stuff well, people won't notice the name. Also, most todo or notetaking apps have their own terminology. Notion calls it pages and their smallest units are blocks, While RoamResearch calls it nodes.

If you look at other notetaking/productivity apps, they have a lot of information on their website specifically targeted to 'brand new users without any knowledge'. They have a lot of onboarding information. Sometimes they just spell out the way you could customize and use their application for a certain use-case. Users need to be able to see the possibilities the application provides meets their demands in a visually pleasing and inviting way.

For example, Notion has pages with screenshots of different ways of using it for students, teams, startups, personal use etc.
Todoist has templates new users can import to start off from.
Obsidian has a big screenshot showcasing most of the key features right of the bat.
There is a gentle guide into TiddlyWiki on the official TiddlyWiki page. But I don't think it is visual inviting enough. Also, the examples provided are out of date. So I think there is a lot to be gained in this area. (so I agree with Mohammed in the third post of this thread) Maybe I'll start sharing some of my solutions soon. I wish I was proficient in youtube to be making tutorials though.

I think this was highlighted with the rise of Zettelkasten this past year. Some people made some prepackaged editions that made TiddlyWiki a well-performing Zettelkasten system out of the box. There is still activity of users in this forum that are using Stroll, Drift, TiddlyResearch etc.

PS: Also note that 'meme' has a widely different meaning and connotation in internet culture. So I would not be in favour of renaming tiddlers into memes.

Op woensdag 30 december 2020 om 17:47:20 UTC+1 schreef Ed Heil:

Mark S.

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Dec 30, 2020, 12:27:23 PM12/30/20
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It would be interesting if people posted their approximate geographical location, where they grew up, and what the word "tiddler" suggests to them.

When you've never heard a word, your brain reaches for the closest one it can think of.

To most members of the largest English speaking country on the planet -- larger than the UK by a factor of 6 -- "tiddler" doesn't mean anything. I grew up with fishermen, and no one used "tiddler".

However, this very bad, very similar-sounding word does mean something to anyone who reads modern literature or watches Netflix. Be sure to scroll down to look at definition #2. To be sure, it's a recent definition, coming in the last 30 years or so. But that's how language changes.

TW Tones

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Dec 30, 2020, 6:28:02 PM12/30/20
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For clarity,

Mark, I am Australian , lived in Papua new Guinea and New Zealand as a Child, tiddler always implied small and diminutive, but the children's game TiddlyWinks is a dominant thought. The idea of a tiddler as a fish to throw back if caught may have proceeded my discovery of tiddler in tiddlywiki. From memory now clouded by what I know now, was a Tiddle or Twiddle was used for a pee.

Not withstanding these similar sounding words, uniqueness is of great value, and we learn to assign meaning. It is only in the outreach to new users where somewhat arbitrary names do not carry information and this can be addressed by surrounding the use of the word with information and explanation.

Look at a google search of tiddler, first page I see the following that money could not buy;
Snag_19d10b0a.png

Meme
There is a thing called an internet meme,  but if you are interested please research the original meaning. It is a cultural / intellectual corollary of the Gene coined I thing by Richard Dawkins. The thing is memes can survive and propagate in in minds and culture. To degrade the meaning of meme to popular cats is degrading our language and the word. But it can also get people to look that may otherwise not.

Traditionally a tiddler would also be considered a record, with its unique key, this has a specific technical meaning but also to some degree a common English meaning. I wonder if this is the case in other languages?

Record
As I have voiced at length in the past, tiddlywiki places the "record" at eye level and treats it as an every day object the tiddler, this is perhaps one of tiddlywiki's key features, in other cases records are hidden, or there contents in attachment's. Tiddlywiki then provides the tools to list and tabulate records, including those that describe the UI and add functionality.

The synonyms of "record" list many of the things someone may use tiddlywiki for. see here https://www.lexico.com/synonyms/record

And I notice tiddlywiki is also "record breaking";
record-breaking, best ever, its best, one's best, optimum, unbeaten, unsurpassed, unparalleled, unequalled, superlative, second to none, never previously achieved  

Tones

Michael Wiktowy

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Dec 30, 2020, 9:55:22 PM12/30/20
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"Record" is the terminology that I use when I am describing what TiddlyWiki uses as it's atomic unit to someone. It is little more standard than "tiddler" and has the potential to leverage some previous understanding of databases. :]

/Mike

tony

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Dec 30, 2020, 9:59:02 PM12/30/20
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Yet another kibble...

I like that TiddlyWiki has user choice configuration in $:/language/DefaultNewTiddlerTitle renaming to new dot/tip/card/memex/<whatever pet name you choose>

Thankfully, there is little cognitive effort to understand that my new pet name for wiki entries is just a tiddler in TiddlyWiki. 

TiddlyWiki and tiddler are unique names, 16 years and running. Gosh, tiddler is even famous enough to be in the popular Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiddlyWiki#Tiddlers

I like what Charlie said here: "To me, I wouldn't try convincing folk of using "TiddlyWiki" as a solution to a problem.  TiddlyWiki is the platform with which I would build the solution.  The name I then give to the solution is what I use.  The name is different for every solution."

Why change now? Even kids wanna fork vim use vim in the NeoVim name? What's a vim? git? emacs? grep? ed? awk? I think Users gonna Use regardless, or git out. [1]

That said, if tiddlers were renamed kibbles, I'd still use KibblyWiki, no problems

Best,
tony

[1] Over the years we've had consistent feedback on the name "TiddlyWiki" that ranges between:

* I don't care about the name, it's just a meaningless string of letters
* I think the name is fine, it's distinctive, and has few false positives when Googling

Mohammad Rahmani

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Dec 31, 2020, 12:37:32 AM12/31/20
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I highly believe in a new fork not only to use modern JS but also the full power of CSS3 and HTML5.

And more important: lets correct the past design mistakes!

 
I am sure Jeremy and all developers DO KEEP TW5 in the present state and maintain it with bug fixing!

One important point always missed is TW5 has a lot of features many do not know, the reason is they are not documented or in better words they are not well documented or presented.
Look at the wish list of 2021 there are not many features requested by users many of them can be implemented by TW5 scripts.

So, please encourage Jeremy and the whole developer team and let's support them for the new fork.

 

Charlie Veniot

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Dec 31, 2020, 9:34:37 AM12/31/20
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Don't mind me.  I just finished my first oh-so-excellent cup o' coffee for the day, and I'm in a zen mood.

Just waxing a little philosophical:  I don't see anything as a mistake.   I see a thing as the culmination of a series of intertwingled things that came together into a particular result that could not have been otherwise at that moment.  The result was meant to be, a wee tiddly and necessary step on the journey's path.

Now I'm about to make myself a second cup of coffee, and a few sips into that, I may just think: what the heck was I thinking and what "need" was I trying go handle?

springer

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Dec 31, 2020, 10:40:35 AM12/31/20
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Dear all, I confess that I sometimes rename 'tiddler' for my professional projects, *but* I also recall that "google" also sounded super-silly until it simply rewired our brains...

I'll honor Jeremy's suggestion that this thread not descend into a popcorn of name candidates... and yet I do think that there's some chance that when an ideal name is proposed it may actually bring about a kind of "eureka" moment for a critical number of us.

How about this middle-ground: a brainstorm of the core *concepts* around which there's good promise for communicative recognition. Here's my off-the-cuff list (sorry if I've missed some in the thread that ought to be included), without trying to edit out ones that are "taken" or otherwise non-starters:

Base (platform, database, starting-point)
Build
Card (& Deck or stack) (HyperCard, index card, very intuitive)
Dwell (live in it while rebuilding it)
Equip (especially as a verb; TW as equipment, but also can be equipped with...)
Facet (there's more to see!)
Fly (edit on the fly)
Kaleido [unweildy, but...]
Kit (chemistry kit, tinkering, lots of tools out of which you choose what you need)
Meme/memo/memex [and other variants]
Molecule/atom/nucleus [other metaphors from physics? fits Atro's logo well]
Mutate/Morph [not great in viral era!]
Nexus [yeah, taken]
Node (not yet mentioned, but invokes both simplicity and power)
Origami (the power of many facets, flexibility, simple starting point)
Pack (pack it up, packs a punch, change what's in it...)
Poly- (as a prefix invoking polyphony, polymorphous...)
Point (both node-like, and verb-like; PoinTWiki would get TW in there, as would KitWiki)
Record (I'm a database user; this clues me into the power of fields)
Self- (as NoteSelf picks up on, having self-modification tools "folded in"...)
Theseus (yeah, a philosopher's inside joke)
Tid (tidbit, continuity with Tiddler)
Topo (topology, topics, map-like)

My suggestion is that we just allow these and other metaphors some breathing room, and imagine their various connotations and powers... If we can orient to a network of conceptual "hooks" on which a rebranding could hang, then perhaps the conversation is less yanked-about by this and that, but gets the associative juices going...

-Springer

PMario

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Dec 31, 2020, 12:02:27 PM12/31/20
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Hi,
At first I thought xememex is complicated, but then I thought about it. I did play a little bit with it.

As wikipedia tells us: memex is a hypthetical thing, It may come from "memory extension",
Quote: "The memex would provide an "enlarged intimate supplement to one's memory"." ... I think that's just a different description for TW.

xememex could be the "Next electronical memory extension". As Jeremy told us, this name has an interesting "feature". We can read it forward and backward.

xememex .. or ..  xememex                nice! right?

We nickname TiddlyWiki with TW or TW5 ....

We can nickname xememex as meX ... Which for me would be: me eXtended .(I do like this one ;)

Conclusion for me:

Tiddlers can be renamed to: Cards

xememex.com can be the organisation

"xememex ToolBox" can be the product. ... Short: meX

and xememex can be a "word mark" / logo ... IMO if the first 2 letters are greyed out a little bit, it's much easier to read. 

Just my 2 cents about the name.

-mario

coda coder

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Dec 31, 2020, 12:17:12 PM12/31/20
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Late to the party, again. 

Tiddlywiki - the product has outgrown the name. Did so a long time ago, even before TW5.

Xememex - what a beautiful word! Bad name for a product. That's as much of a "bump" as describing Tiddlywiki to a newcomer.

Fundamental unit = tiddler? I've never agreed to this even though it's touted and repeated ad infinitum.

  Fundamental unit = fields/properties of a tiddler. i.e. "elementary particles".
  Atoms = currently called tiddlers.
  Molecules = tagged (or otherwise grouped) tiddlers.
  Long-chain molecule(s) =  Story river(s)  
  
Not sure if there's a new name in there as that stands, but my brane (not a typo) is leaning toward String Theory, though I'm not sure about "Brane" or "Membrane".  Or maybe I am...?

Aidan Grey

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Dec 31, 2020, 12:24:59 PM12/31/20
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So, what if we create a place other than here (n Tiddlywiki.com?) for possible names, so we have somewhere to brainstorm without bogging down the list?



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HP

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Dec 31, 2020, 12:50:32 PM12/31/20
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I chip in: Quinely

No software found with this name.

coda coder

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Dec 31, 2020, 12:54:50 PM12/31/20
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Meant to add...

Cards? Hypercard used cards... and how old is that? Predates the web by almost 10 years. 

@Jeremy I appreciate your point about the conversation inevitably reducing to name--offerings, but the deeper, more fundamental and technical stuff should happen "in another place", surely?

Ste

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Dec 31, 2020, 1:28:55 PM12/31/20
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I think I'm with a gentle drift away from the tiddly to TWsomething. It could just become the initials... Kentucky Fried Chicken is now just KFC. TWP could be Tiddly Wiki Platform.. Total Wiki.. Transformational Word Producer... 
As others have said.. I don't think the name is the biggest hurdle.. But 'What do I do with this thing and how do I do it?' might be... 

Mark S.

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Dec 31, 2020, 2:43:47 PM12/31/20
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Quinessence

Ste

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Dec 31, 2020, 2:58:16 PM12/31/20
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@Mark S
Quite quintessential?! 

clutterstack

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Dec 31, 2020, 3:49:02 PM12/31/20
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memexr? I'll see myself out...

But seriously, I'm more excited about the idea of a new version more comfortable in its bones with all the things TW can do. Sounds like an awful lot of work, though. Fun though! But that's my perennial personal trap.

I also think Charlie's point below is notable, perhaps more for a conversation on adoption than on architecting or naming. TiddlyWiki is a solution all by itself; I have a TW that's been in constant use since 2005, and it has some customisation in it (most tweaks and plugins were wiped out when I migrated to TW5), but in general it's a notebook that I shove info into and that has a search bar. But there's huge untapped (or unpublicised) potential in the TW with constraints added, presented neatly, for a focused purpose.

HP

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Jan 1, 2021, 6:53:17 AM1/1/21
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Quinly - sounds friendly as well...

HP

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Jan 1, 2021, 6:54:43 AM1/1/21
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"quines" - could refer to tiddlers as well fmpov.

Mohammad Rahmani

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Jan 2, 2021, 1:20:08 AM1/2/21
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@clutterstack


That is why Tiddlywiki is not a wiki and more importantly it is not a note taking tool by itself. But a powerful note taking app can be developed using Tiddlywiki.
So, Tiddlywiki, is a development studio which has a high level scripting language with many components (official /third party) to build different apps/tools based
on the web technology (HTML5+JS+CSS). Examples are: TiddlyResearch, TiddlyShow, Projectify, ...

 
 

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BurningTreeC

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Jan 2, 2021, 3:14:02 AM1/2/21
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I like the name "AtomCards"

to add my two cents to the discussion :D

TiddlyTweeter

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Jan 2, 2021, 4:31:11 AM1/2/21
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Mark S. wrote:
It would be interesting if people posted their approximate geographical location, where they grew up, and what the word "tiddler" suggests to them.

Purely for your interest ... I grew up in the UK in Leicestershire always next to rivers or canals, or living on boats, for the first decade of my life. 

"TIDDLERS", the fish shoals, were everywhere. They like "shallows" ... the edges of waterways---or spill pools near wiers. I had intimate knowledge of them decades before Tiddlywiki. You dangled the infant hand in waterway edges and they would come swirl around.

TT 

TiddlyTweeter

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Jan 2, 2021, 4:38:21 AM1/2/21
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HP et al ...

Just FYI, I tried many times on Twitter to get some interest in the fact our toot is a rare example of a practical, working QUINE.
I was replying mainly to developers. I thought it would be of real interest. 

BUT, actually, the response was flat.

The "Quine" nature of our tool is really pronounced and central. BUT, as far as I can see, that doesn't light anyone's candle but mine and a very few others.

Best wishes
TT

TiddlyTweeter

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Jan 2, 2021, 4:52:48 AM1/2/21
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Mohammad wrote:
<snip> Tiddlywiki, is a development studio which has a high level scripting language with many components (official /third party) to build different apps/tools based
on the web technology (HTML5+JS+CSS). Examples are: TiddlyResearch, TiddlyShow, Projectify, ...

Ciao Mohammad

You echo what I wrote before. There are two aspects on naming. A main name for the "development tool" that is THE MAKER and a subsidiary naming system for the MADE APPS. 

I think there is a differentiation needed to aid decent naming that will better carry us forward.

Overall I still feel that XEMEX/XEMEMEX type name scope is pretty good for "The Maker."

In a way the OP I don't think really got the issue ... which, I think, is very much about naming THE MAKER, AND also aiding, supporting, naming of actual dedicated APPS MAKE.

My latest 2 cents.
TT
 

TiddlyTweeter

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Jan 2, 2021, 5:05:22 AM1/2/21
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Regarding ideas of CARD or RECORD or variants thereof like "AtomCards" (i.e. that emphasise the atomistic nature of the "unit").

Well. Not sure. I still prefer Tiddler as FRAGMENT. A bit more. 

Why? The problem with "Record" and "Card" is both imply self-contained-wholeness. Basically echoing database structural units.

I'd need convincing our "Atomic Units" should be conceptualized that way. That is NOT how I experience the "fragment" in TW/XEMEMEX.

It is actually NOT so self-contained or self-substituent.

Just thoughts
TT

Álvaro

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Jan 2, 2021, 8:26:29 AM1/2/21
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Hi community! Happy new year!

I think that we are all clear that TW has a basic unit, the tiddler. We can build our TW with them. We can rename them as card , record, ..., and then we can rename the project.
For example, with tiddler rename as tile we can rename TW as kaleido or mosaic. But then we lose the term of tiddler, the most reconocible part of Tiddlywiki.

Maybe we can rethink about the conexión between our least element (tiddler) and the whole (Tiddlywiki). A shoal is made up of many fish. Is Shoal good name? It sound good to me, but i'm not a English-speaking/anglophone.

Glenn Dixon

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Jan 2, 2021, 9:14:09 AM1/2/21
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AtomicCards™
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Hans Wobbe

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Jan 2, 2021, 10:20:34 AM1/2/21
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I'm probably spending too much time trying to understand Quantum computing, so AtomicCards suggests (to me) a possible wish to go a bit deeper and at least use subAtomic element names.  Quark? Maybe even Boson  or Fermion?

Happy New Year!

Hans

Charlie Veniot

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Jan 2, 2021, 11:08:19 AM1/2/21
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If you don't mind, I'd like to ditto that and adorn with a "why I ditto(?)"

To me, the words "card" and "record" have semantic meanings to me that don't quite fit the semantic meaning of "tiddler".

Well, the semantic meaning I've attached to "tiddler" is, to me,  much broader/flexible than card or record.

To me, a "tiddler" is an information component, as per knowledge componentization (which I prefer call "information/knowledge/content componentization".)

Whatever "language" a tool uses, I happily adopt that language.  Once that language is ingrained, I do tend to get annoyed at the change in language and having to rejig my mindset.   So I stubbornly tend to keep using the old language because I've become attached to it and visualize/understand everything in this terms.  Well, until I get used to the new language. (That said: I still call my Seagull "M4" a Seagull "Merlin" as per original name many years after the name change, because "M4" to me sucks.)

Regardless, I am wildly enjoying this discussion about name/jargon, because of all the awesome intertwingled insights.

Cheers and thank-you all for yer thoughts !

Mohammad Rahmani

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Jan 2, 2021, 11:29:17 AM1/2/21
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Hi Hans!
But seriously we have such a name.

  1. Electron a famous framework lets create desktop apps using web technology https://www.electronjs.org/
  2. Atom is great text editor https://www.electronjs.org/apps/atom
  3. Graviton a minimalistic code editor https://www.electronjs.org/apps/graviton-editor

Have a look at https://www.electronjs.org/apps supported by OpenJS and you find quark.

Just kidding: I prefer Tiddlywiki over atomic related things ;-)

Best wishes
Mohammad


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Hans Wobbe

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Jan 2, 2021, 2:44:57 PM1/2/21
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Hi Mohammad!

Sorry, but in my "quantum state" I had overlooked electron. :-).  ( Thanks for the link. )

Personally, I am quite happy with "TiddlyWiki", if only because ( like Charlie ) I prefer to not change Jargon.

If Size is a prime consideration, however, then I would enjoy Boson ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boson ).  Based on what little I know of Theoretical Physics, I don't think there are likely to be any smaller references within Jeremy's promised 25 year time-span.  I could be wrong, of course, but I am unlikely to care since Kurzweil's singularity promise seems to be running late.

HP

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Jan 2, 2021, 2:49:59 PM1/2/21
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Hi TiddlyTweeter

> Just FYI, I tried many times on Twitter to get some interest in the fact our toot is a rare example of a practical, working QUINE.
This doesnt matter fmpov. Why? Because the name itself (Quinely/Quinly/tiddler: Quines) is "cool". If they later find out what a quine is, the better. :)

Mark S.

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Jan 2, 2021, 3:10:01 PM1/2/21
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Don't forget Quarks. Of course, "QuarkXpress" is already taken.

coda coder

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Jan 2, 2021, 5:17:10 PM1/2/21
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Hmm, so the physics theme has taken off? :)

I'm not complete enamored with it though, despite my preference to view "the field" as the fundamental. (Even that's a play, in case it got past you).

Aside: Penrose, I do like. He lives, I believe, not too far from Rushton Towers. And he was awarded the Nobel prize for physics, recently. I can envisage much play on "pen" and "rose" in terms of icons and "Englishness" (at least).

Ed Heil

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Jan 4, 2021, 4:23:45 PM1/4/21
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Hi Jeremy,

Re-reading this message (and studiously avoiding making any suggestions for new names) the idea of "targeting more modern JavaScript engines" makes me wonder about the question of "how modern a browser do you need to have to have a working Tiddlywiki?" 

With regards to minimum browsers for TW5, according to the web site it's "Safari version 6" (from 2012!) IE version 10 (also from 2012!) and "all recent" Chrome, Firefox, and Firefox for Android, whatever that means, but presumably going back comparably far.  So right now TW5 is usable in browsers that go about 8 years back, which is nice.  And TWC support obviously goes back way further than that.

How big a change in "you need this recent a browser" would you think was acceptable in a "Xememex" project?

On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 7:52:20 AM UTC-5 jeremy...@gmail.com wrote:
As appealing as this sounds, I just don't think that as a small community we have the resources to support both, unless the intention would be for TiddlyWiki 5 to only receive bug fix updates. 

I think that would be the default, yes, unless somebody wanted to pick up the development more purposefully.

As you mention in a later reply, the real challenge is replacing the word tiddler. I remember trying this in Classic and it wasn't easy then and is probably even harder now with all the widget attributes etc. Which makes me wonder if this would really be the best use of our time and resources?

That is indeed one of the critical questions.

Over the years we've had consistent feedback on the name "TiddlyWiki" that ranges between:

* I don't care about the name, it's just a meaningless string of letters
* I think the name is fine, it's distinctive, and has few false positives when Googling
* I think the name diminishes TiddlyWiki
* I think the name is a thinly veiled obscenity

That last category is undoubtedly a minority, but it's a very consistently and forcefully expressed opinion when it does come up. I used to think that view said more about the people holding it than anything else. But the trouble is that I'm too close to the thing: the name "TiddlyWiki" is my little piece of wordplay, and I'm attached to it. I think maybe that might hold for many of us who have invested time and effort in the project. So I have to pay attention to feedback that comes from a different perspective, because I'm never going to be able to assume that perspective myself.

The other consideration in all of this is my desire to modernise the design of TW5 and establish a new baseline for backwards compatibility. After 10 years, it's becoming increasingly limiting to live with some of the early design decisions of TW5 (a lot of which are pretty arcane - for example, "tiddlerfield" modules). I believe we would make faster and more decisive progress if we lost some of that baggage.

The idea of modernising the core relates to the naming change because another bit of feedback that I received back in 2011-13 was that it was a mistake to reuse the name TiddlyWiki for the new project. Many people felt that it was unnecessarily confusing to have two distinct products with the same name, and struggled with my perspective that TWC and TW5 were different versions of the same thing.

So, what I learned from all of the above is that names for communal things are tricky. People have strong opinions because they feel they have a stake. The thing that is particularly tricky is trying to change what an existing name means if the previous meaning is entrenched in the community.

In other words, I think TiddlyWiki 5 is ripe for such a thorough internal overhaul that changing the names might not be as much of a practical consideration as it would be if we had to maintain backwards compatibility.

Best wishes

Jeremy.



Cheers,
Saq

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Corey S

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Jan 4, 2021, 10:11:32 PM1/4/21
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I haven't read everything yet, but to a possible name change, I was thinking of a name like BitWiki or something, if it hasn't been taken already.
A Bit = Tiddly

Sapphireslinger

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Jan 4, 2021, 10:25:18 PM1/4/21
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Bitmanteau

Tiddlywiki nicer though.

The only hassle I remember is trying to explain to my mom that a tiddler was just another name for an entry.

Sapphireslinger

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Jan 4, 2021, 10:28:23 PM1/4/21
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I love the meaning implied by Kaleido:

bits of material are reflected in an endless variety of patterns

Jeremy Ruston

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Jan 5, 2021, 4:53:02 AM1/5/21
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Hi Ed

Re-reading this message (and studiously avoiding making any suggestions for new names) the idea of "targeting more modern JavaScript engines" makes me wonder about the question of "how modern a browser do you need to have to have a working Tiddlywiki?"  

With regards to minimum browsers for TW5, according to the web site it's "Safari version 6" (from 2012!) IE version 10 (also from 2012!) and "all recent" Chrome, Firefox, and Firefox for Android, whatever that means, but presumably going back comparably far.  So right now TW5 is usable in browsers that go about 8 years back, which is nice.  And TWC support obviously goes back way further than that.

How big a change in "you need this recent a browser" would you think was acceptable in a "Xememex" project?

That would be to be decided. In 2010/1 we targeted the browsers that were in common use at the time, and presumably we’d do the same again. Nowadays, most browsers automatically update and so perhaps there might be less incentive to be as conservative as we have been.

From a developer perspective, HTML and CSS have actually changed relatively little over the last 10 years, it’s in the area of JavaScript that things have radically improved: async/await, modules, classes, etc. Making these features available in the core will make the developers more productive, and make it easier for developers with contemporary JavaScript experience to join the project.

Best wishes

Jeremy


TW Tones

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Jan 5, 2021, 8:07:46 PM1/5/21
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Jeremy et al..

If we were to use  Xememex please tell me how to say it?,  Which syllables are emphasised?. As in my prior post the issue is ease of use and speaking. If when introducing tiddlywiki (by another name) do you really want to be forced to spell it?. With a surname like mine, "Muscio" trust me I always have to spell it and few can workout how to say it just from reading it, in fact many jumble the letters to Music-o. This is actually helpful for a surname because of various reasons, like immediate detection of people who do not know me well on the phone, but it is not good as a transmissible meme.

My notes are about the approach not a name suggestion.

On Quines

A quine is a computer program which takes no input and produces a copy of its own source code as its only output. The standard terms for these programs in the computability theory and computer science literature are self-replicating programs, self-reproducing programs, and self-copying programs.  

Actually this definition found with a google search, is more about "trivial quines". It is wrong for tiddlywiki, because it can accept input and although it writes itself back (With new data and functions) it can also generate many different outputs.

I like the Quine idea and I value its relationship to TW but it is ultimately only a partial description. Perhaps advanced Quine? (AQ) it even has a TLD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.aq not that we could register.

I do favor the tiddler and/or a record, I have no quibble with tiddler, as it is "self defined" and can become many different things such as a record or card. My only Quibble is with "TiddlyWiki" when talking to others, I now say "TiddlyWiki platform" to new people. But for quite similar reasons I would not be happy with Xememex although like models of cars the introduction of X makes it sound like a recent model. I would once again be inclined to say " Xememex platform". Perhaps "meme platform" is more direct?.

Regards
Tones

Glenn Dixon

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Jan 6, 2021, 5:38:31 AM1/6/21
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I guess this is what happens when you keep a project going this long...

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Ah it was called <a href="https://twitter.com/TiddlyWiki?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@TiddlyWiki</a> , and it&#39;s still around. (cool!) Before mobile though it was just an HTML file with js that did FS operations to rewrite itself. I think? Was that even possible?</p>&mdash; beering (@endearingbrew) <a href="https://twitter.com/endearingbrew/status/1346648942134476800?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 6, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

As if wikis were some antique relic from the past. Well, I guess they kinda are, in internet years.

So I guess this would be a point for rebranding away from mentioning 'wiki' at all? *shrug*

Glenn Dixon

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Jan 6, 2021, 5:40:13 AM1/6/21
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I apologize for that horrid mess of code. Wish there was a way to edit. Oh, it's email. Even though I'm entering this from a web page.

Reason # 1,475 why I hate Google Groups :(

/rant
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