Rapidan or Mossy?

[Kevin Huntington]

Hello all,

 

A buddy and a I are going to take a day trip for some trout this weekend and are trying to decide between Mossy Creek and the Rapidan.  We're cool with the couple hour drive to get there, so that's not an issue.  But neither of us have ever fished either place, so just looking for input.

 

I've heard Mossy trout are spooked very easily and it's a tough place to fish.  But I also don't know if the water temp is still low enough this late in the summer for the Rapidan.  We just want to catch a few trout and soak in some scenery.

 

Any other river or stream suggestions are welcome too, we're just jonesing for some trout.

 

Any thoughts or input from anyone would be great!  Thanks!

[Scott Stankus]

I've never been to either, but I see that Mossy is one of the Red Hot locations on the Orvis Fishing Reports this week. The SF Shenandoah is on the Red Hot list, too. It doesn't look like there's a Rapidan report, so no info there. 

--Scott

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Mossy = beetles beetles beetles

Sent from my iPhone

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[Danny Barrett]

Id pick mossy over rapidan this time of year personaly.  if you head up to to rapidan, its a rough road getting in without a suv.  rapidan has better scenery for sure.  if your ok with a drive, id suggest the jackson.  above the dam its around 40 CFS and below dam it is about 200-300 CFS. there are some spots ive found for wading.  if you are both good with covering water then you can hit a variety of spots on the jackson in a day.  i live out by winchester and can get down there in abou 3 hours.  if you end up down there and want some other advice, hit me up dannyt...@gmail.com. i spent my entire spring break in that part of the state.  7 days and never fished the same part of river and almost fished a different river each day.

Tight lines,

Dan Barrett

 

dannyt...@gmail.com

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On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Kevin Huntington <huntingt...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[Eric Y.]

The Jackson is my homewater and it is a good trout fishery. There is a ton of good wading below the dam in the tailwaters, however, if you aren't up on your knowledge of the what sections are okay to fish and what sections aren't, I'd suggest doing a good amount of research before you go wandering down the river. There are some major landowner rights issues on the Jackson and you can find yourself in a lot of legal trouble if you don't respect them. Several landowners have brought hefty suits against anglers on the Jackson in recent years and, if history is any indication, you will lose that battle. That said, since it is just one day, you'll find plenty of trout in the tailwater immediately below the dam - more than enough water to keep you entertained for a day. 

On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 12:17:11 PM UTC-4, Danny Barrett wrote:

Id pick mossy over rapidan this time of year personaly.  if you head up to to rapidan, its a rough road getting in without a suv.  rapidan has better scenery for sure.  if your ok with a drive, id suggest the jackson.  above the dam its around 40 CFS and below dam it is about 200-300 CFS. there are some spots ive found for wading.  if you are both good with covering water then you can hit a variety of spots on the jackson in a day.  i live out by winchester and can get down there in abou 3 hours.  if you end up down there and want some other advice, hit me up dannyt...@gmail.com. i spent my entire spring break in that part of the state.  7 days and never fished the same part of river and almost fished a different river each day.

Tight lines,

Dan Barrett

 

dannyt...@gmail.com

(540)-222-8064

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Kevin Huntington <huntingt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello all,

 

A buddy and a I are going to take a day trip for some trout this weekend and are trying to decide between Mossy Creek and the Rapidan.  We're cool with the couple hour drive to get there, so that's not an issue.  But neither of us have ever fished either place, so just looking for input.

 

I've heard Mossy trout are spooked very easily and it's a tough place to fish.  But I also don't know if the water temp is still low enough this late in the summer for the Rapidan.  We just want to catch a few trout and soak in some scenery.

 

Any other river or stream suggestions are welcome too, we're just jonesing for some trout.

 

Any thoughts or input from anyone would be great!  Thanks!

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[Steve]

Damn King George law. How is it above the lake? I understand you can backpack/camp along that section. 

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[Eric Y.]

Above the lake is the same situation with regard to landowner rights. Usually fishing is a bit harder there, but you have the chance to catch monsters and the average fish is probably a bit larger, whereas below the dam 22" is the limit, based on a quick survey of my fishing buddies there, and the average catch is in the 12-14" range. I had a professor in college who was an ichthyologist and loved the Jackson. He only fished above the lake and had many pictures of 26"+ fish from the section (albeit, collected over several decades, I'm sure). They also have a small population of steelhead that were stocked into the lake and run up the river every year. I've seen pictures, but never met anyone who's caught one/witnessed one caught, so I wouldn't plan a big trip around that knowledge, but it is an exciting proposition. 

[Danny Barrett]

The landowners down there are a pain. Ive had a few run ins and when they call police they get laughed at.  I normally stick to the points marked on one of the VDGIF boat launch sites.

Thanks,

Dan Barrett

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[TurbineBlade]

Danny -- my understanding is that the "hidden valley" area is pretty well-marked and requires a hike-in to reach a lot of the more popular water.  Is this area a place where you're likely to be confronted by landowners? 

I hadn't considered this to be a problem but would like to know before heading over there.

Thanks,

Gene

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 9:42:12 AM UTC-4, Danny Barrett wrote:

The landowners down there are a pain. Ive had a few run ins and when they call police they get laughed at.  I normally stick to the points marked on one of the VDGIF boat launch sites.

Thanks,

Dan Barrett

dannyt...@gmail.com

(540)-222-8064

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Eric Y. <theeri...@gmail.com> wrote:

The Jackson is my homewater and it is a good trout fishery. There is a ton of good wading below the dam in the tailwaters, however, if you aren't up on your knowledge of the what sections are okay to fish and what sections aren't, I'd suggest doing a good amount of research before you go wandering down the river. There are some major landowner rights issues on the Jackson and you can find yourself in a lot of legal trouble if you don't respect them. Several landowners have brought hefty suits against anglers on the Jackson in recent years and, if history is any indication, you will lose that battle. That said, since it is just one day, you'll find plenty of trout in the tailwater immediately below the dam - more than enough water to keep you entertained for a day. 

On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 12:17:11 PM UTC-4, Danny Barrett wrote:

Id pick mossy over rapidan this time of year personaly.  if you head up to to rapidan, its a rough road getting in without a suv.  rapidan has better scenery for sure.  if your ok with a drive, id suggest the jackson.  above the dam its around 40 CFS and below dam it is about 200-300 CFS. there are some spots ive found for wading.  if you are both good with covering water then you can hit a variety of spots on the jackson in a day.  i live out by winchester and can get down there in abou 3 hours.  if you end up down there and want some other advice, hit me up dannyt...@gmail.com. i spent my entire spring break in that part of the state.  7 days and never fished the same part of river and almost fished a different river each day.

Tight lines,

Dan Barrett

 

dannyt...@gmail.com

(540)-222-8064

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Kevin Huntington <huntingt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello all,

 

A buddy and a I are going to take a day trip for some trout this weekend and are trying to decide between Mossy Creek and the Rapidan.  We're cool with the couple hour drive to get there, so that's not an issue.  But neither of us have ever fished either place, so just looking for input.

 

I've heard Mossy trout are spooked very easily and it's a tough place to fish.  But I also don't know if the water temp is still low enough this late in the summer for the Rapidan.  We just want to catch a few trout and soak in some scenery.

 

Any other river or stream suggestions are welcome too, we're just jonesing for some trout.

 

Any thoughts or input from anyone would be great!  Thanks!

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[Danny Barrett]

Honestly I have never fished that section of the Jackson.  I know some guides and great fisherman who half love it and half hate it. So I have never made the hike in.  I normally fish from the town of Covington up to the dam.  http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/fishing/waterbodies/reports/2013-jackson-river-tailwater-map.pdf.  I hope that link doesn't violate any rules on the blog, but it highlights areas you can launch boats (or in my case get in and wade the around).  I have never had issues at these locations.  The couple that I have had the easiest wading is at Indian Draft, right below the dam, and there are a few swinging cable bridges on the river.  I cant find them on google maps or id highlight them.  But I havent had issues at them either.  In my opinion the name of the game up there is massively deep nymphs and streamers.

Thanks,

Dan Barrett

 

dannyt...@gmail.com

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[Brendan]

speaking of boats and the jackson... is an anchor or drag chain in violation of king george? 

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[Steve]

This is the area I've been meaning to explore:

http://www.hikingupward.com/GWNF/HiddenValley/

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[Eric Y.]

Danny: I am sure that is hyperbole, but if the landowner has a legitimate claim (many believe they do but cannot prove it), you could be in a lot of trouble. As recently as March of this year, a fly angler racked up over $100,000 in legal fees trying (unsuccessfully) to fight a number of civil trespassing lawsuits for being in land grant water. Some landowners can get hostile. Back in high school in my whitewater-running days, we ran Bottom Creek (another infamous King's Land Grant issue that American Whitewater has battled for probably 20 years) during a flood and had a a guy firing warning shots into the air and threatening to kill us if we ever ran it again (of course, we did, but never saw him again). 

Gene: Hidden Valley is a good spot. People hate on it because it isn't easy, walk-up fishing like the tailwater (which can be like shooting fish in a barrel many days), but without spot burning some other places, that's one of your best bets to find the big girls in the fall. It takes more persistence and is still fairly popular because of the bigger fish and the better challenge. Still not as popular as the tailwater, but in fishing the tailwater on at least 100 different occasions, I've seen at most 6-8 other anglers on the section and 90% of the time you'll have the whole place to yourself. 

Brendan: Yes, do not drag an anchor, do not cast a line. You can probably float through those sections just fine as long as you stay in your boat, don't anchor, and don't fish, but I wouldn't test it but I am a wimp and definitely not a rule-breaker any more (and barely a rule-bender at that). People making any sort of claim with any inclination to enforce it will post LOTS and LOTS of signs on the bank - there's no doubt when you enter one of these sections. 

[Eric Y.]

I missed this post. Indian Draft is an excellent choice. Danny is also spot on with deep, deep nymphs. My usual rig for most sections (aside from Indian Draft, which is fairly shallow) is a small foam hopper with a hook bend-tied dropper of a psycho prince in about a #12 on 4' of 6x. Dredge every hole you see, especially deep eddies behind submerged boulders in the swifter water. Larger dries (#8-4) can bring explosive strikes in most sections, especially at the head of a riffle, from right where the water starts to drop off to about 20' up stream. Smallish streamers (#8-4 as well) will produce the biggest fish, especially when cast upstream through a rapid and retrieved hand-over-hand through it. Don't neglect to fish RIGHT AT the outflow under the dam. I enjoy throwing 4-5' streamers of SF fiber or marabou way up between the walls at the outflow (I bring my 8wt for this because of the wind and the fly size). That's the best spot to reliably catch the big 'uns in the tailwaters, hands down. 

Good luck, if you go. 

[Danny Barrett]

To my knowledge no. When I've boated the Jackson. I used a brick and only used the boat to get down river and would jump out to wait ripples etc. The few real deep pools I'd anchor as best I could and grab sinking line.

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[Eric Y.]

To be clear, touching the stream bed would be trespassing.

[Jeffrey Silvan]

To add a little color commentary to Eric's advice - which is all great advice to just avoid a confrontation completely, and I'd recommend following it. The Land Grant only applies to the riverbed - assuming the courts would ever make a decision affirming the validity of the Land Grant over general VA statutes. You cannot walk or anchor on it (since you'd be using the riverbed), but you CAN float over it. As the fish are not part of the river bed, you are technically allowed to fish (from a canoe, raft, etc.) as long as you don't anchor or get out. Of course, you're risking a confrontation, so it is up to you whether it is worth the risk. If you really wanted to irk them, you could anchor outside their property line, and float into their property with a real long line... but again, why risk the confrontation.

Also, if anyone fires warning shots and threatens to kill you for floating the water, call the cops.

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[TurbineBlade]

Wait Jeff -- I thought I remember Beau's article specifically saying that you cannot even drop flies in the water to fish in those sections, regardless of whether anything is touching the bottom of the river.  Something like "the landowners technically own the fish that are in that section of water column"

Anyone?

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[Jeffrey Silvan]

I should retract. No one really knows if fishing is ok, because the courts haven't ruled the validity. However, based on land owner claims and the original land grant, it only refers to the stream bed itself. The VADGIF did tell one developer he could not prevent fishing, only wading, after he posted signs indicating that. Unfortunately, they couldn't compel him to remove the sign in private property and the state won't get involved in litigation anyway.

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[Danny Barrett]

That is right.  In these sections you may only float past, no fishing at all.  Only a handful of landowners can actually claim this. I always just take my risk and go.  

Thanks,

Dan Barrett

 

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[Eric Y.]

In March, the court did rule in favor of the landowner on the issue of wading - fishing, I don't know, but that ruling is enough to deter me. Another thing to note is that while the area covered in the land grant is not growing, the number of landowners who can make the claim is, as some of that property is developed and sold piecemeal. That could mean that while a landowner had a claim and previously chose not to enforce it, the new owners on the same sections can still make the claim, or at least that's what happened in the event that spurred the big controversy. All of that said, it is incredibly easy to avoid the off-limits sections and as many times as I have fished the Jackson, I've never found myself hard-pressed to find trout on the public sections. Indeed, every time I get to a sign on the bank, I am on that "one last cast, then I'm heading back in... well, one more cast" stage of the day. Plenty of trout and plenty of water to go around. 

Jeff, I can't remember the guy's name, but I worked at/hung out in whitewater shop, and he was pretty well-known for doing that stuff. It was generally known that he was all show and apparently had some sort of distant familial relation to the county sheriff. Every once in a while you'd hear of someone showing up at the take out with a deputy waiting for them telling them they'd get in trouble one day if they kept running it. Realistically, he probably had a more valid claim considering Bottom is probably not really classified as navigable. 

[Jeffrey Silvan]

Eric, I'm only familiar with the original, "famous" case, so if there was another case that came up, I apologize if I'm coming off as argumentative. I don't believe there was an actual ruling to set a legal precedent here. My understanding of the case is as follows... The defendants chose to not continue defending the case due to lack of funds, so the court never ruled on ownership of the riverbed, which is the real issue at stake and can still be contested in the future. What happened was the court initially granted a partial summary judgement since the plaintiffs simply met the burden of showing title prima facie which simply ruled that the landowners potentially have a legitimate claim to ownership. While the defendants originally intended to continue fighting, they ran out of money. The final order before the case was struck was that the judge approved a consent order that prevents THOSE defendants from ever walking on the stream bed again. Basically, the court only ruled that the landowners might own the stream bed, and that the two guys can't wade in the river without prior permission. In the end, it would be extremely difficult for a private entity to have won this type of case anyway. In order to have had the plaintiff's claim for summary judgement rejected, the defendant would have needed to prove an equal or superior claim to the land. In this specific situation, the only group that could do that would be the Commonwealth itself.

I'm with you though - the fact that the case even came up is enough to keep me from ever testing it. Of course, as you mentioned, this would not apply to Bottom Creek as it isn't navigable, and the laws are much more clear in that case. It still doesn't give the crazy guy the right to threaten to kill you though!!

On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 10:00 PM, Eric Y. <theeri...@gmail.com> wrote:

In March, the court did rule in favor of the landowner on the issue of wading - fishing, I don't know, but that ruling is enough to deter me. Another thing to note is that while the area covered in the land grant is not growing, the number of landowners who can make the claim is, as some of that property is developed and sold piecemeal. That could mean that while a landowner had a claim and previously chose not to enforce it, the new owners on the same sections can still make the claim, or at least that's what happened in the event that spurred the big controversy. All of that said, it is incredibly easy to avoid the off-limits sections and as many times as I have fished the Jackson, I've never found myself hard-pressed to find trout on the public sections. Indeed, every time I get to a sign on the bank, I am on that "one last cast, then I'm heading back in... well, one more cast" stage of the day. Plenty of trout and plenty of water to go around. 

Jeff, I can't remember the guy's name, but I worked at/hung out in whitewater shop, and he was pretty well-known for doing that stuff. It was generally known that he was all show and apparently had some sort of distant familial relation to the county sheriff. Every once in a while you'd hear of someone showing up at the take out with a deputy waiting for them telling them they'd get in trouble one day if they kept running it. Realistically, he probably had a more valid claim considering Bottom is probably not really classified as navigable. 

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[Eric Y.]

Jeff, no worries, just chatting and trying to keep folks out of trouble. This was what I was referring to, by the way: http://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/fly-fishing/access-denied-landowners-win-jackson-river-case/ One part I missed before is that the state has now posted signs up warning anglers of trespassing violations. I didn't see any on my last trip down there, but I'll be sure to heed them when I run into one, seeing as that article states that now the door has been opened for anglers to get hit with criminal trespassing instead of just civil cases. 

I don't know if Bottom is really classified as navigable or not (but I have a strong feeling it isn't), to be honest, but it is one hardcore creek (Class V+ at average flow, totally out of control at flood stage), and at average flow is easily on par with the toughest lines through Great Falls. I could see it being considered navigable for logging, so maybe it is. Either way, high school is such a different time. We just thought it was hilarious - I even told my mom about it (who would run the shuttle for it sometimes). At 16, weren't we all bulletproof? 

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