Kayak-toon-SUP- in the winter?

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TurbineBlade

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Nov 6, 2013, 8:21:51 AM11/6/13
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Hi -- any of you keep kayak fishing through the winter?  The idea interests me, but I don't own a Mustad survival suit and was wondering how to not die out there.  Even paddling drips a fair amount of water into the kayak -- 

I guess I could just put on the neoprene chest waders and layer up?

Any wisdom you'd like to pass along?  

Thanks -- 

Jeffrey Silvan

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Nov 6, 2013, 8:36:00 AM11/6/13
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Gene - please don't wear waders I'm any sort of boat. If you flip in your kayak, your chances of survival are very low. If they fill with water, they'll become an anchor and be almost impossible to get off. Neoprene helps since they fit tighter and tend to float (without being filled with you and water), but still isn't the safest. Maybe just throw a rain suit over your warm clothes?

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Charlie Church

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Nov 6, 2013, 9:21:38 AM11/6/13
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Gene,

I have been kayak fishing through the winter for 5 or so years now? There is an excellent and very popular kayak winter fishery to be had in the Hampton Roads area from now until January.

That being said, you should dress right so you don't fall in and never come back.

In the past I have used a dry suit although a bit pricey. If thats too far out of your price range, a dry top + waders can achieve the same thing. The point is to be able to fall into the water and not get wet. Even a mustang survival suit would not get the job done.

Another thing to note is that I have a hard boat (not inflatable). My kayak is an ocean kayak 13 which in a way almost performs better when the conditions are bad out. 


If you are interested in making the drive south for some winter fishing, you should follow TKAA.org or Pirates of Lynnhaven. A lot of those guys will go out and fish together in the winter.

Eric Y.

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Nov 6, 2013, 10:09:15 AM11/6/13
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For whatever it is worth, I got dumped from a SOT wearing waders during the 2011/12 duck hunting season. Frightening at first, but far from the certain-death-by-drowning claims you see online. They quickly filled with water, ballooned out, and started floating me down river. It was very easy to undo the belt, swim out of them, grab the boot, dump the water, and trudge to shore. Thankfully, it happened at the take-out for the float we were on so in a few minutes I was in dry clothes and heating up in the car - had it been mid-way through the float, I would have been in trouble due to the cold. They do not drag you down (after all, water inside your waders is no heavier than water outside your waders so if you float in the pool, you'll also float in water-filled waders) but cold water is no fun and can pose a serious threat. If you wear a tight wading belt and a good paddling PFD, it will keep a lot of the water out as well (I had put my PFD on the shore with some other gear when I dumped). 

The best solution for fishing is going to be a dry suit, as mentioned above, but you can probably also find a decently discounted neoprene wet suit online. A dry top and rain pants will probably provide all the protection you need, but it is always good to prepare for the worst case scenario of dumping your boat fairly far from shore. 

Joe Molloy

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Nov 6, 2013, 10:10:24 AM11/6/13
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I'm curious just how waders can act as an anchor? I have yet to be totally submerged while wearing waders and can understand how it would be difficult to get off and  boots would make swimming difficult but once you are in the water wouldn't they behave just like normal clothing that is wet (i.e. heavy, movement restricting)?  

Has anyone been fully submerged or gone into a pool with waders to test this?

-Joe


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Rob Snowhite

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Nov 6, 2013, 10:21:25 AM11/6/13
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I have filled up waders when a boat capsized. I was neutrally buoyant and floated with the current. I was heavy and burdened when exiting the water. Water weighs 8.333 pounds when out of water not in it. 

Sent from my iPhone

Jeffrey Silvan

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Nov 6, 2013, 10:31:46 AM11/6/13
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I hate to disagree, but this is a safety issue that hits pretty close to home for me. About 15 years ago back home on the Cape, we lost one of our fellow TU anglers in the ocean due to flooded waders. They were rubber bootfoot style and he wasn't wearing a belt (critical piece here). He was already wading deep, and didn't notice a ~5 ft slope on the edge of the sandbar, and slid down. The waders immediately filled with water (rubber waders are heaiver than water, so they will sink you) which displaced any air within the waders that would've kept him afloat, and they dragged him down - despite the guy being a strong swimmer. During normal wading, the water pressure had simply displaced the air without replacing it with water, which basically created a vacuum and "stuck" the waders to his lower legs, which prevented him from taking the waders off. His fishing buddy was about 150 feet away, which is an eternity to run in waist+ deep water, and by the time he got there with his knife (another must have with rubber waders), got out of his own waders, and cut him out of the waders, it was too late. We had a second person that fell out of his bass boat while wearing waders, but was OK since he was wearing a belt, which slowed the water intrusion and kept his air bubble long enough that he was able to free himself. Remember the buoyancy of your body is not just fighting your own weight like in a pool - you're also fighting the weight of the waders, your gear, and your clothes, which probably total about 10 lbs or more, especially in the winter. It's the equivalent to a scuba diver's weights, but without the quick release. Add current from a river (or ocean) and it gets even more dangerous. Neoprenes might make the difference since it is a less dense material - and I believe even has positive buoyancy - but after that experience, I will never suggest waders are OK from a boat, and are never OK without a belt if you're getting deeper than your knees.


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Joe Molloy

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Nov 6, 2013, 10:36:26 AM11/6/13
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Thanks...and with the water weight to the thousandth of a pound...that's hard core!


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TurbineBlade

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Nov 6, 2013, 11:02:47 AM11/6/13
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Yeah really -- Rob, are you sure about those sig figs?  ;)  

No - I do take this seriously and appreciate the wisdom.  I just read a post where some guy went out a few days back and my first thought was "wetsuit"?  Cold + Water is nothing to mess with if you don't know what you're doing.  And I have no idea honestly -- and I don't want to die before I develop type II diabetes in my 40's.  My father says eating whole wheat pasta is a real rush -- 

Gene


On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 10:36:26 AM UTC-5, Joe Molloy wrote:
Thanks...and with the water weight to the thousandth of a pound...that's hard core!
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Rob Snowhite <r...@robsnowhite.com> wrote:
I have filled up waders when a boat capsized. I was neutrally buoyant and floated with the current. I was heavy and burdened when exiting the water. Water weighs 8.333 pounds when out of water not in it. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 6, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Joe Molloy <joseph...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm curious just how waders can act as an anchor? I have yet to be totally submerged while wearing waders and can understand how it would be difficult to get off and  boots would make swimming difficult but once you are in the water wouldn't they behave just like normal clothing that is wet (i.e. heavy, movement restricting)?  

Has anyone been fully submerged or gone into a pool with waders to test this?

-Joe
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Jeffrey Silvan <jeffre...@gmail.com> wrote:

Gene - please don't wear waders I'm any sort of boat. If you flip in your kayak, your chances of survival are very low. If they fill with water, they'll become an anchor and be almost impossible to get off. Neoprene helps since they fit tighter and tend to float (without being filled with you and water), but still isn't the safest. Maybe just throw a rain suit over your warm clothes?

On Nov 6, 2013 8:21 AM, "TurbineBlade" <doubl...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi -- any of you keep kayak fishing through the winter?  The idea interests me, but I don't own a Mustad survival suit and was wondering how to not die out there.  Even paddling drips a fair amount of water into the kayak -- 

I guess I could just put on the neoprene chest waders and layer up?

Any wisdom you'd like to pass along?  

Thanks -- 

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Rob Snowhite

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Nov 6, 2013, 11:25:55 AM11/6/13
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For got to mention that's weight per pound. I'll try to let the community center life guards let me jump in with waders on film tomorrow. Tpfr version of myth busters. 

On if my favorite authors, Ken Miyata drown while wearing waders. I also always wear a pfd on boats. 

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Joe Molloy

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Nov 6, 2013, 11:36:23 AM11/6/13
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Eric Y.

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Nov 6, 2013, 1:31:30 PM11/6/13
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Jeffrey Silvan

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Nov 6, 2013, 2:05:23 PM11/6/13
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Rob - you can test it out at home. Full your bathtub, then fill your waders. If they float, it'll act as life preserver (or at least won't drag you down). If it's a more dense material like some rubber, it'll sink and act as a weight. Whether or not you're in the waders won't change the buoyant properties of the waders themselves.

I looked into the whole idea a bit more, and the results of getting dumped in your waders depends is highly dependent upon the type of wader. Neoprene floats, but doesn't have significant buoyant forces, so it won't drag you down if they flood, but will still make it harder to swim. A lot of modern materials used in waders are fairly neutrally buoyant, but all still make it very hard to swim, relative to a situation where you should be swimming. Here are a few links to documented stories (some very old) about people drowning at least in part because of their waders. There are tons of similar articles out there, but the most common trend is a combo of the waders making it too challenging to swim and some sort of current. None were wearing PFDs, which likely could have saved all their lives.

http://www.madisoniannews.com/ennis-man-dies-in-fishing-accident/
http://articles.latimes.com/1986-02-18/local/me-9277_1_apparent-drowning
http://www.denverpost.com/colorado/ci_21629954/colorado-man-dies-while-fishing-montana
http://thedailyworld.com/sections/news/local/fisherman-found-dead-near-ocean-shores-second-man-found-ok.html


 

Eric Y.

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Nov 6, 2013, 4:28:52 PM11/6/13
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Yeah, forgot to mention my waders were breathables. I can see the rubber waders dragging you right down - mostly because they are not only heavy, but stiff and hard to get out of. My hunting waders are a size too large for me (Orvis was only selling 14US bootfoots as an XXL at the time and may still), which probably helped a lot in my "wet exit." In my experience, the top filled up immediately and out of instinct and panic, I popped the belt buckle and the whole thing filled. Because they took on so much water, they practically pulled themselves off. Regardless, a PFD worn tight would have changed a lot of things. I've since bought an inflatable camo PFD, but it wouldn't have helped as much in this instance as a paddling-specific PFD. 


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Matthew Longley

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Nov 6, 2013, 6:40:49 PM11/6/13
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Regardless of whether waders would pull you down or keep you up, isn't the whole reason Gene suggested wearing waders in his kayak to keep warm and dry?  Is anyone contesting that if you fall in with waders, sink or float, you're wet?

Michael Smith

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Nov 6, 2013, 6:58:37 PM11/6/13
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In my yak, I routinely hang my legs over the side because it's a sit-on-top.  It's also self-bailing but I usually get at least a little wet.  In the winter, you're more likely to die of hypothermia in a kayak than you are to drown.  I wear stockingfoot breathable wafers with a belt and a PFD and have no fear.  In the winter, if you spill you need to return to shoe immediately to avoid hypothermia, just like you do when you go for a swim while fishing for steelhead or salmon.

And my PFD never comes off when I'm in the kayak.  All it takes is a wave I didn't see and I'm in the water.  I also carry a pilots knife on my PFD so I can cut lines/laces/suspenders/etc in an emergency.

Also safety for kayaks: you must be able to spill the kayak of your own accord and do self-recovery before you take it anywhere.  This is one of the first safety rules you learn.  If you do this in shallow water, you can see how well your waders work or don't work.  If you don't know how to do any of this, look on YouTube for instructional videos.





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Vic Velasco

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Nov 6, 2013, 8:50:41 PM11/6/13
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Hey all -

I'm a Navy Diver and have been working around water (warm and cold) for a long time.  I'm not saying I am the guru on this stuff, but I would say this is definitely an area where you want to minimize risk.

A dry suit worn properly (properly zipped up and latex cuffs adjusted properly) is the safest option if you are planning on traveling far from your starting point/going into deeper water.  You would wear a fleece jumper suit or layered synthetic long johns inside as well to keep you warm - stay away from cotton long johns because with physical exertion, your sweat will stay close to your body and pull heat from you faster (that's how your body dumps heat in the warmer months - sweating and evaporative cooling).  If you fall off your water craft (Sit on top kayak, Sit inside kayak, SUP, boat), the suit will keep you from getting wet in the first place and you don't lose your heat.  

The next best option is an appropriately sized neoprene wetsuit.  All the wetsuit manufacturers should have information on what thickness is needed in what water temps you will be hanging out in.  When I SUP surf in the winter, I wear a 5/4 (5 mm in the core area, 4 mm in the arms/legs) with a hood, gloves and booties.  If the surf is clean, I don't wipe out much, but if the noreasters are blowing, I wipeout more than I will admit.  With a wetsuit, you actually want a thin layer of water in your suit.  The neoprene holds the water later close to you, your body heats up that water layer and the air bubbles in the neoprene rubber suit keeps the heat in that water and your body insulated from the cold water outside.  If I expect to be out of the water more (sailing small boats or SUP surfing in cleaner waves) I will opt to use a thinner wetsuit - like a 3/2.

The problem with waders is if you go overboard and water does get in - your objective will be to get back into/on your watercraft - be it a SUP, SOTK, SIK, boat.  If the 8.3333 pounds per gallon of water surpasses your ability to lift yourself/attached gear/extra water weight back on to your watercraft, you have a problem.  You are immersed in cold water, can't lift yourself back onto your craft because of the trapped water, and may be too far from shore to swim back.  A tight fitting dry top, wading belt and foam pfd can help slow the water intrusion, but there is greater risk than the other two setups. 

There was an article in Kayak Fishing magazine about this same issue a couple of years back.  They tested a few set ups (drysuit, wetsuit, waders)  - I don't remember their exact findings, but I do remember them saying the drysuit option was the most protective against the effects of the cold water exposure.

You'll want to wear a pfd (as always) too

Lastly - I know Chris S on this forum has taken his SUP out on the Potomac during the winter - there is a Youtube video out there that has him "icebreaking".  He was using a drysuit.  Checkout to local windsurfing shops (windsurfers have similar issues) for drysuits.

Vic

Eric Kruel

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Nov 6, 2013, 10:03:05 PM11/6/13
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Lots of good info here. One thing I would add if you plan on going out in the winter would be to pack dry bag with a spare set of warm clothing, and also don't go out along. Another good resource to read more on this topic is Kayakbassfishing.com. Their are a lot of NOVA guys on the site and you can usually find someone willing to join you to go out and fish with.

Steve F

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Nov 6, 2013, 10:46:58 PM11/6/13
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Here's what Kevin Whitley has to say on the cold weather conundrum.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtgYP3Xrhdo  

I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't say no to an outing to the river to test my own cold weather kayak rescue abilities.  TPFR polar bear plunge anyone?

Aden

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Nov 7, 2013, 5:30:23 PM11/7/13
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Rob,

I am not working tomorrow if you need someone to film that. And, in true myth busters style we should try it repeatedly with various factors (lightness, darkness, different clothing, beer)

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