GSOC applicants sending off-list emails
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Oscar Benjamin
Mar 26, 2020, 6:07:04 PM3/26/20
to sympy
Hi all,
Over the past couple of months I have lost count of the number of
times that I have been emailed off-list by people interested in
applying for GSOC with sympy this year.
It's excellent that so many people are interested but I have not
replied to *any* off-list emails and I don't intend to. This is
because I don't want to give private help to any particular applicant
at the expense of others. Anyone who wants to publicly discuss ideas
or post their proposal and ask for feedback is welcome to do so. I am
happy to give guidance or provide feedback in an open forum where
everyone can see what I have to say. If I don't respond then please
understand that that is because my time is limited and many of the
proposals are for projects that I would not be able to mentor.
Is there any guidance around off-list communication with GSOC
applicants on the wiki?
Oscar
Over the past couple of months I have lost count of the number of
times that I have been emailed off-list by people interested in
applying for GSOC with sympy this year.
It's excellent that so many people are interested but I have not
replied to *any* off-list emails and I don't intend to. This is
because I don't want to give private help to any particular applicant
at the expense of others. Anyone who wants to publicly discuss ideas
or post their proposal and ask for feedback is welcome to do so. I am
happy to give guidance or provide feedback in an open forum where
everyone can see what I have to say. If I don't respond then please
understand that that is because my time is limited and many of the
proposals are for projects that I would not be able to mentor.
Is there any guidance around off-list communication with GSOC
applicants on the wiki?
Oscar
Aaron Meurer
Mar 26, 2020, 6:11:17 PM3/26/20
to sympy
I tend to take the same approach.
I don't think there is anything about this in the student instructions
on the wiki, but we can add something.
Aaron Meurer
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I don't think there is anything about this in the student instructions
on the wiki, but we can add something.
Aaron Meurer
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Nikhil Maan
Mar 27, 2020, 2:05:47 PM3/27/20
to sympy
There are instructions for students for introducing themselves on the mailing list in the student instructions and discussing an idea on the mailing list on the ideas page.
But there is nothing to encourage students to have a public discussion on the mailing list over messaging the mentors personally.
I think it would be a good idea to add something to both the Student Instructions and the Ideas page like 'We encourage you to discuss your ideas publicly on the mailing list rather than messaging the mentors privately with your ideas.' We can even make it more elaborate if that would be better.
But there is nothing to encourage students to have a public discussion on the mailing list over messaging the mentors personally.
I think it would be a good idea to add something to both the Student Instructions and the Ideas page like 'We encourage you to discuss your ideas publicly on the mailing list rather than messaging the mentors privately with your ideas.' We can even make it more elaborate if that would be better.
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Oscar Benjamin
Mar 27, 2020, 2:17:12 PM3/27/20
to sympy
I also wonder if the mailing list is the right place for all these
GSOC discussions anyway. What is normally a low-volume list ramps up
massively right now as the GSOC deadline approaches which is not good
for other users of the mailing list.
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GSOC discussions anyway. What is normally a low-volume list ramps up
massively right now as the GSOC deadline approaches which is not good
for other users of the mailing list.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sympy/993d2b25-7b7c-4a35-807a-51ed1aa2d37f%40googlegroups.com.
Gagandeep Singh (B17CS021)
Mar 27, 2020, 2:26:10 PM3/27/20
to sy...@googlegroups.com
What about asking applicants to create issues on GitHub to discuss their ideas.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sympy/CAHVvXxTe86ySTdRf06kaWGTcaPW9-jhof%3DXLOP1YOpnW8YdQ0A%40mail.gmail.com.
Matthew Brett
Mar 27, 2020, 2:28:32 PM3/27/20
to sympy
Hi,
Yes, I've often wondered whether it really makes sense to have every
potential applicant email the whole mailing list.
Perhaps it would be reasonable to have a separate Sympy GSOC mentors
list for these emails. Then maybe the applicants could email the
list with specific code / design questions as they arise in discussion
on the GSOC mentors list? Or make issues, as Gagandeep just
suggested?
From the peanut gallery,
Matthew
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Yes, I've often wondered whether it really makes sense to have every
potential applicant email the whole mailing list.
Perhaps it would be reasonable to have a separate Sympy GSOC mentors
list for these emails. Then maybe the applicants could email the
list with specific code / design questions as they arise in discussion
on the GSOC mentors list? Or make issues, as Gagandeep just
suggested?
From the peanut gallery,
Matthew
Aaron Meurer
Mar 27, 2020, 2:32:05 PM3/27/20
to sympy
Perhaps we should remove the instruction to introduce yourself to the
list from the instructions. I realize those can get quite spammy.
Maybe the best way for students to simply introduce themselves would
be to mention that they are apply to GSoC when they open their first
pull request. Since they have to open a pull request anyway, this
should reduce the noise. Posts to the list should be reduced to actual
questions about the projects themselves. I do want things to be done
publicly, so that the community can be involved, but I also appreciate
that the mailing list can become a bit noisy at this time of year and
that a large fraction of GSoC related posts are, unfortunately, of
very low quality.
Aaron Meurer
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list from the instructions. I realize those can get quite spammy.
Maybe the best way for students to simply introduce themselves would
be to mention that they are apply to GSoC when they open their first
pull request. Since they have to open a pull request anyway, this
should reduce the noise. Posts to the list should be reduced to actual
questions about the projects themselves. I do want things to be done
publicly, so that the community can be involved, but I also appreciate
that the mailing list can become a bit noisy at this time of year and
that a large fraction of GSoC related posts are, unfortunately, of
very low quality.
Aaron Meurer
Oscar Benjamin
Mar 27, 2020, 4:42:02 PM3/27/20
to sympy
On Fri, 27 Mar 2020 at 18:31, Aaron Meurer <asme...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Maybe the best way for students to simply introduce themselves would
> be to mention that they are apply to GSoC when they open their first
> pull request. Since they have to open a pull request anyway, this
> should reduce the noise.
I think this would be better. The instruction should say to get a PR
>
> Maybe the best way for students to simply introduce themselves would
> be to mention that they are apply to GSoC when they open their first
> pull request. Since they have to open a pull request anyway, this
> should reduce the noise.
merged first and then afterwards introduce yourself on the mailing
list. When someone does introduce themselves on the mailing list the
first thing said is always to go and get a PR merged anyway.
--
Oscar
Oscar Benjamin
Mar 27, 2020, 5:08:31 PM3/27/20
to sympy
Perhaps there could also be a mentor mailing list for helping any new
contributors (GSOC or otherwise) looking to open a first pull request.
contributors (GSOC or otherwise) looking to open a first pull request.
vinit wadgaonkar
Mar 27, 2020, 5:16:15 PM3/27/20
to sy...@googlegroups.com
Sir if that happens it would be much fruitful for first pull request seekers can we have any arrangements made for those to teach to students who are new to git
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Jason Moore
Mar 27, 2020, 5:16:53 PM3/27/20
to sympy
I don't agree that a requirement to introducing themselves should be getting a PR merged. That is a barrier to community building for these new potential contributors. My opinion is that we put far too much weight on the PR(s) in the first place.
I like the idea of having each student opening an issue on GIthub with their introduction and their discussion about their proposal ideas. This keeps the noise off the mailing list and self contains the discussion to those that want to participate. Of course, a label would be needed.
I also think it should simply be our policy that all discussion with applicants is in the open. I instruct each student that emails me directly to send their inquires to the mailing list. The more bias we can remove from this process, the better.
Jason
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Jason Moore
Mar 27, 2020, 5:19:37 PM3/27/20
to sympy
One more note of concern. We've asked students to post their proposal drafts and final versions to the wiki. This makes it an open process that is also archived by default. There are positives to this approach.
It seems most students are now using google docs or sharing pdfs instead. Google docs has an easy way to make comments on proposals but I'm not sure that is worth the lack of openness and archiving.
Jason
Ondřej Čertík
Mar 27, 2020, 5:59:24 PM3/27/20
to sympy
I think we all agree the discussion should happen at the mailinglist, as opposed in private emails. Only if nobody responds at the list, I think it is ok for the student to email a mentor privately, asking him to respond at the list.
Regarding the mailinglist introductions, maybe we can simply reverse the order in our checklist:
1. Submit a PR (if you have problems with git or trouble submitting a PR, please ask on the list for help)
2. Introduce yourself to the list
That should reduce the mailinglist traffic to only those students that will likely submit an application, but at the same time do not discriminate against those learning git (by encouraging them to seek help at the list).
ONdrej
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Regarding the mailinglist introductions, maybe we can simply reverse the order in our checklist:
1. Submit a PR (if you have problems with git or trouble submitting a PR, please ask on the list for help)
2. Introduce yourself to the list
That should reduce the mailinglist traffic to only those students that will likely submit an application, but at the same time do not discriminate against those learning git (by encouraging them to seek help at the list).
ONdrej
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Nikhil Maan
Mar 29, 2020, 1:15:11 PM3/29/20
to sympy
I think we should encourage students to post on the mailing list when they want to discuss their ideas and if they have any questions, or need any help.
I don't think student introductions serve any purpose on the mailing list. The gitter channel might be a better place for that IMO.
Regards,
Nikhil Maan
I don't think student introductions serve any purpose on the mailing list. The gitter channel might be a better place for that IMO.
Regards,
Nikhil Maan
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