[First project] The Fisher Girl by Bjørnstjerne Bjørnson

[Brendan Fattig]

Excited to try my hand at producing my first ebook and this one looks relatively doable. It's on the first production wanted e-books list with the following sources.

PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/37725

archive.org scans: https://archive.org/details/fishergirl00bjgoog

Original Norwegian scans: https://www.nb.no/items/21e10c74de3104246b4663beff814676  

One thing I noticed (and that is mentioned in the translators' preface) is that the translators added chapter titles that didn't exist in the original Norwegian version. Is it okay to keep those out of the production? And, if so, what to do about the translators' preface?

Additionally, there are pages of end-matter that seem to advertise other works by the same translators? I presume that should be left out as well.

[Alex Cabal]

Sure, that one would be a good start.

Please leave the chapter division and preface in, that was a choice by
the translator. You can cut the ads at the end. The Norwegian scans are
not relevant, don't include those.

There is some verse and some letters, see the manual for copy and paste
formatting.

Make sure to read the Standard Ebooks Manual of Style before starting,
as you won't know what to fix if you haven't read the standards. In
particular, please closely review the semantics, high level patterns,
and typography sections:

https://standardebooks.org/manual

https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics

https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns

https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography

The step by step guide will take you from start to finish:

https://standardebooks.org/contribute/producing-an-ebook-step-by-step

Please email often if you have any questions at all. Our standards are
well-established so there is probably already a standard for formatting
whatever problem you've encountered.

When you're ready, email back with a link to your Github repository so
that I can mark you as having started.

Have fun! :)

> --
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[Brendan Fattig]

Here is the public github repo. I've gotten through step 13 of the guide and want to make sure I haven't gone sorely wrong before I start manually adding semantics.

https://github.com/brendanny/bjornstjerne-bjornson_the-fisher-girl_sivert-hjerleid_elizabeth-hjerleid

[David]

Hi Brendan - this is (IMO) looking good so far! At just a quick glance through your repo, here are some suggestions:

• You could clear out some of the PG cruft any time (I usually do this as soon as I notice it). E.g., all those ` class="normal"` in `<p class="normal">` could be removed in a single search/replace. Similarly `<hr class="W10"/>` -> `<hr/>`, although you'll want to confirm those are properly thematic breaks from your scan source. 
• Since you're up to semantics, this would be a good time to wrap your chapter heading `h2` and `h3` in an `<hgroup>...</hgroup>` wrapper. And...
• See the third example here - the `<h3>...</h3>` needs to be a `<p  epub:type="title">...</p>` - although I find it convenient to make this change after doing the "hgroup" change, since it's easier to target an `</h3>` in a search/replace than a `</p>`!
• Chapter name/titles will need to be titlecased - you can refer to this thread to see some solutions on how to do this swiftly (do experiment on a *copy* of your chapter-n.xhtml files, though!!). I usually do this at the "typogrify" step.

But it looks like you're very much on the right track. :) At this point, it's probably best to come back with specific questions if they arise; the review will eventually look over the repo and work as a whole. Hope this helps!

David / Fife, UK

[Alex Cabal]

Lukas can you manage this with Robin reviewing?

On 9/4/24 11:28 PM, Brendan Fattig wrote:
> Here is the public github repo. I've gotten through step 13 of the guide
> and want to make sure I haven't gone sorely wrong before I start
> manually adding semantics.
>
> https://github.com/brendanny/bjornstjerne-bjornson_the-fisher-girl_sivert-hjerleid_elizabeth-hjerleid
>
> On Wednesday, September 4, 2024 at 4:19:49 PM UTC-5 Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> Sure, that one would be a good start.
>
> Please leave the chapter division and preface in, that was a choice by
> the translator. You can cut the ads at the end. The Norwegian scans are
> not relevant, don't include those.
>
> There is some verse and some letters, see the manual for copy and paste
> formatting.
>
> Make sure to read the Standard Ebooks Manual of Style before starting,
> as you won't know what to fix if you haven't read the standards. In
> particular, please closely review the semantics, high level patterns,
> and typography sections:
>
> https://standardebooks.org/manual <https://standardebooks.org/manual>
>

> https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics
> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics>
>
> https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns>
>
> https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography

> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography>
>
> The step by step guide will take you from start to finish:
>

> https://standardebooks.org/contribute/producing-an-ebook-step-by-step <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/producing-an-ebook-step-by-step>

>
> Please email often if you have any questions at all. Our standards are
> well-established so there is probably already a standard for formatting
> whatever problem you've encountered.
>
> When you're ready, email back with a link to your Github repository so
> that I can mark you as having started.
>
> Have fun! :)
>
>
> On 9/4/24 4:14 PM, Brendan Fattig wrote:
> > Excited to try my hand at producing my first ebook and this one
> looks
> > relatively doable. It's on the first production wanted e-books
> list with
> > the following sources.
> >
> > PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/37725

> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/37725>
> > archive.org <http://archive.org> scans:
> https://archive.org/details/fishergirl00bjgoog

> <https://archive.org/details/fishergirl00bjgoog>
> > Original Norwegian scans:
> > https://www.nb.no/items/21e10c74de3104246b4663beff814676
> <https://www.nb.no/items/21e10c74de3104246b4663beff814676>
> >
> > One thing I noticed (and that is mentioned in the translators'
> preface)
> > is that the translators added chapter titles that didn't exist in
> the
> > original Norwegian version. Is it okay to keep those out of the
> > production? And, if so, what to do about the translators' preface?
> >
> > Additionally, there are pages of end-matter that seem to
> advertise other
> > works by the same translators? I presume that should be left out
> as well.
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c79f0964-4da6-455a-934f-01e309d139f4n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c79f0964-4da6-455a-934f-01e309d139f4n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c79f0964-4da6-455a-934f-01e309d139f4n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c79f0964-4da6-455a-934f-01e309d139f4n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
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[Robin Whittleton]

Will review.

> On 5 Sep 2024, at 18:37, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>
> Lukas can you manage this with Robin reviewing?

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e8846067-ec21-411c-991e-582093d51ca6%40standardebooks.org.

[Brendan Fattig]

Should removing the PG stuff be in its own commit? Or is it okay to include in the manual semantics commit? (or if it really matters–though I imagine it doesn't–I could attempt a rebase... :) )

[Robin Whittleton]

Do it in its own commit, that’s fine.

On 5 Sep 2024, at 19:25, Brendan Fattig <brenda...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Lukas Bystricky]

Thanks Robin. I can manage.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/054993ED-3AFF-4118-95CF-204028DD7EB1%40reala.net.

[Brendan Fattig]

How should I go about tagging/correcting "Herr Björnson" in the translators' preface? "Herr" is a Norwegian title and the translators used different diacritics for the author's surname than what is commonly used today (Bjørnson)

Also, should given and/or surnames be tagged with xml:lang? (for example, the Dane "Oehlenschläger": `<? xml:lang="da">Oehlenschläger</?>`)

[Lukas Bystricky]

Herr is a loan word that appears in the standard Merriam Webster dictionary (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Herr) so it can be used without tags or italics. You can modernize Björnson to Bjørnson in an editorial commit.

Typically we don't tag proper nouns unless it's needed to help with pronunciation. The exact line is arbitrary, but it's not needed here. Names are almost never tagged unless they coincide with an English word.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/993d52ef-38bc-4d2d-a238-63fe1049317dn%40googlegroups.com.

[Brendan Fattig]

When formatting poetry and songs, should I choose indentation classes relative to every poem/song in the work? Or should I treat each individual poem/song as separate.

For example, attached are three different poems; which indentation classes should I choose for each?

[Weijia Cheng]

You just need to experiment with different indentation levels and eyeball it until it looks right. If I had to guess from past experience, the first example looks like an i1, the second an i4, and the third and i8, but you should try it out yourself.

[Brendan Fattig]

I'm now going through my first proofreading pass, but have the following notes/questions about the production.

On cover art, I found the following: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/436866

General:

- The original does not use paragraph breaks in dialog for new speakers, it uses dashes or spaces. Is it okay to leave this be or should I modernize the dialog?

    - e.g. line 38 in chapter 7 (pg 133-139 of the scans); se lint warns on this section

- There are many places where a `?` or `!` is followed by a lowercase letter to continue the sentence (regex: `[!|?] [a-z]`). Should I change the case where necessary in an editorial commit?

- I'm mostly confident I correctly labeled the various hymns/songs/poems in this work but it'd be nice to have that double-checked in the final review

Specific:

- Chapter 1

    - On pg. 10 of the scans, 5th line from the bottom (`his copy-book`), there is a weirdly printed comma that is not in the PG transcriptions. It's too low to be a comma and too high to be an apostrophe in the line below.

    - Should I change `a Merchant's College` to `a merchant's college`?

- Chapter 3

    - On pg. 36 of the scans, top line, there is `“he felt no calling: this was so bitter a`. The PG transcription has this as `"he felt no calling:" this was so bitter a` to correct an apparent printer error of a missing closing quotation. Should I remove this closing quotation, move it in front of the the colon, remove the opening quotation, or leave as it is in the PG transcription?

- Chapter 4

     - `It was dated “Calais;”⁠—she read:` (pg 71)

        - Calais is a city in France, so I'm not sure what the translators meant by "dated"

        - Should I tag Calais as a place?

        - Should the semicolon go on the right side of the closing quotation?

- Chapter 9

    - (pg 178) `engrasserer` appears in a letter in small caps. Engrasserer does not seem to be a word in any language that I could find. Web search turns up the french "engraisser" but that word doesn't seem to make sense in the context. How should I tag it?

- Chapter 11

    - (pg 237-238) `and now at last he has come to⁠—⁠All that I have thought`

        - the single em dash here is two separate (em?) dashes in the scans, almost like the first em-dash is being used to obscure the place?

[Brendan Fattig]

One more thing,

The title page puts a line break after the first name of the first translator and everything else on the second line which looks awkward. (see attachment)

A couple of options I thought of:
1) Manually add line break after the first translator's last name

2) Since the translators share a last name, remove the first instance of the last name (i.e. "Sivert and Elizabeth Hjerleid")

[Brendan Fattig]

I went ahead and just put both translators' names on the same line to follow 10.4.2.10.6; `se create-draft` split them with Sivert on one line and the rest on the second. I assume this was an error, but I can change back if necessary. I would still like to remove the first instance of their last name to match the original scans.

Here's a mock-up of the cover

 

[Alex Cabal]

Lukas do you have some time to look over these questions soon?

> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.0/7-high-level-structural-patterns#7.5.4> and eyeball it until it looks right. If I had to guess from past experience, the first example looks like an i1, the second an i4, and the third and i8, but you should try it out yourself.

>
> On Friday, September 13, 2024 at 1:02:29 PM UTC-4 Brendan Fattig wrote:
>
> When formatting poetry and songs, should I choose indentation
> classes relative to every poem/song in the work? Or should I
> treat each individual poem/song as separate.
>
> For example, attached are three different poems; which
> indentation classes should I choose for each?
>
> On Friday, September 6, 2024 at 4:38:48 AM UTC-5
> lukasby...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Herr is a loan word that appears in the standard Merriam
> Webster dictionary
> (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Herr

> <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Herr>) so it can

>> * You could clear out some of the PG

>> cruft any time (I usually do this as
>> soon as I notice it). E.g., all those
>> ` class="normal"` in `<p
>> class="normal">` could be removed in a
>> single search/replace. Similarly `<hr
>> class="W10"/>` -> `<hr/>`, although
>> you'll want to confirm those are
>> properly thematic breaks

>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.0/single-page#4.1.1.2.7> from your scan source.
>> * Since you're up to semantics, this

>> would be a good time to wrap your
>> chapter heading `h2` and `h3` in an
>> `<hgroup>...</hgroup>` wrapper. And...

>> * See the third example here
>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.0/single-page#6.2.1.6.3> - the `<h3>...</h3>` needs to be a `<p  epub:type="title">...</p>` - although I find it convenient to make this change after doing the "hgroup" change, since it's easier to target an `</h3>` in a search/replace than a `</p>`!
>> * Chapter name/titles will need to be

>> titlecased - you can refer to this
>> thread

>> <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/z2-RKdlXp20/> to see some solutions on how to do this swiftly (do experiment on a *copy* of your chapter-n.xhtml files, though!!). I usually do this at the "typogrify" step.

>>
>> But it looks like you're very much on the
>> right track. :) At this point, it's
>> probably best to come back with specific
>> questions if they arise; the review will
>> eventually look over the repo and work as
>> a whole. Hope this helps!
>>
>> David / Fife, UK
>>
>> On Thursday 5 September 2024 at 05:28:06
>> UTC+1 Brendan Fattig wrote:
>>
>> Here is the public github repo. I've
>> gotten through step 13 of the guide
>> and want to make sure I haven't gone
>> sorely wrong before I start manually
>> adding semantics.
>>

>> https://github.com/brendanny/bjornstjerne-bjornson_the-fisher-girl_sivert-hjerleid_elizabeth-hjerleid <https://github.com/brendanny/bjornstjerne-bjornson_the-fisher-girl_sivert-hjerleid_elizabeth-hjerleid>

>>
>> On Wednesday, September 4, 2024 at
>> 4:19:49 PM UTC-5 Alex Cabal wrote:
>>
>> Sure, that one would be a good start.
>>
>> Please leave the chapter division
>> and preface in, that was a choice by
>> the translator. You can cut the
>> ads at the end. The Norwegian
>> scans are
>> not relevant, don't include those.
>>
>> There is some verse and some
>> letters, see the manual for copy
>> and paste
>> formatting.
>>
>> Make sure to read the Standard
>> Ebooks Manual of Style before
>> starting,
>> as you won't know what to fix if
>> you haven't read the standards. In
>> particular, please closely review
>> the semantics, high level patterns,
>> and typography sections:
>>
>> https://standardebooks.org/manual
>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual>
>>

>> https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics>
>>
>> https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns>
>>
>> https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography>

>>
>> The step by step guide will take
>> you from start to finish:
>>

>> https://standardebooks.org/contribute/producing-an-ebook-step-by-step <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/producing-an-ebook-step-by-step>

>>
>> Please email often if you have any
>> questions at all. Our standards are
>> well-established so there is
>> probably already a standard for
>> formatting
>> whatever problem you've encountered.
>>
>> When you're ready, email back with
>> a link to your Github repository so
>> that I can mark you as having
>> started.
>>
>> Have fun! :)
>>
>>
>> On 9/4/24 4:14 PM, Brendan Fattig
>> wrote:
>> > Excited to try my hand at
>> producing my first ebook and this
>> one looks
>> > relatively doable. It's on the
>> first production wanted e-books
>> list with
>> > the following sources.
>> >
>> > PG:

>> https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/37725 <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/37725>
>> > archive.org <http://archive.org>
>> scans:

>> https://archive.org/details/fishergirl00bjgoog <https://archive.org/details/fishergirl00bjgoog>
>> > Original Norwegian scans:
>> >
>> https://www.nb.no/items/21e10c74de3104246b4663beff814676 <https://www.nb.no/items/21e10c74de3104246b4663beff814676>

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c79f0964-4da6-455a-934f-01e309d139f4n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c79f0964-4da6-455a-934f-01e309d139f4n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c79f0964-4da6-455a-934f-01e309d139f4n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c79f0964-4da6-455a-934f-01e309d139f4n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are
>> subscribed to the Google Groups "Standard
>> Ebooks" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop
>> receiving emails from it, send an email to
>> standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/91253558-5ce9-4d29-9d41-aba2b99166d5n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/91253558-5ce9-4d29-9d41-aba2b99166d5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
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[Lukas Bystricky]

Sorry, somehow I missed this earlier.

In general I believe it's ok to modernize the dialogue to have to each speaker start on a new line. However, you can leave the lower case letters after a question mark or exclamation mark.

Specific questions:

• I think that's a comma in chapter 1
• You can modernize to merchant's college (editorial commit of course)
• Page 36: leave it as in the transcription
• Chapter 4: Calais is indeed a place, but by "dated" they mean written on a dateline. No need to tag it as a place .We follow the CMS punctuation rules, so any punctuation goes inside quotes, with very few exceptions. 
• Chapter 9: "engrasserer" also appears in the original Norwegian, also with emphasis. I would simply tag it as emphasis. It's probably a loan word to Norwegian then with an added "er" to turn it into a word. Engraisser is a good guess, but yeah it's hard to make sense of that in context.
• Page 237, yes it looks like it might be obscuring a place name. That's the same in the Norwegian scans. I'd replace with a 3em dash.
• I don't object to changing the translator names to match the scans, but I'm not sure if something similar has been done before. That might be something for Alex to weigh in on.
• The cover looks good, I've added it to the DB.

[Brendan Fattig]

>lukas wrote:

>Sorry, somehow I missed this earlier.

All good!

>it's ok to modernize the dialogue

Alright, I'll go ahead and sort it out.

>I think that's a comma in chapter 1

Okay, I'll add it. Does this need to be in a "correcting transcription" commit or can I combine with the other non-editorial changes?

>Chapter 4: Calais is indeed a place

>...any punctuation goes inside quotes, with very few exceptions.

According to SEMoS 8.7.2.1, I should move the semicolon after "Calais" outside of the quotes. I assume this is not editorial because it's "Typography"?

>engrasserer" also appears in the original Norwegian, also with emphasis. I would simply tag it as emphasis. It's probably a loan word to Norwegian then with an added "er" to turn it into a word.

Should I also add a language tag?

>looks like it might be obscuring a place name. I'd replace with a 3em dash.

Okay, I wasn't sure because "to come to" in the sense of "to wake up" or "to realize" also seemed possible. Though since the scans have the double dash I figured it was probably an obscuring.

>I don't object to changing the translator names to match the scans. That might be something for Alex to weigh in on.

Sounds good, I'll wait for Alex before committing any titlepage changes

>The cover looks good, I've added it to the DB.

Thanks!

–brendan

[Brendan Fattig]

> Brendan Fattig wrote:

>> lukas wrote:

>> it's ok to modernize the dialogue

> Alright, I'll go ahead and sort it out.

I've gone through and modernized chapter 2 but would like some feedback on the changes I've made so far before I continue with the rest of the book.

commit: 556d3b3

Thanks!

--brendan

[Alex Cabal]

Don't remove their last name, in the metadata they are individual people
therefore they should appear in the titlepage as individual people as well.

On 9/23/24 2:04 PM, Brendan Fattig wrote:
> I went ahead and just put both translators' names on the same line to
> follow 10.4.2.10.6; `se create-draft` split them with Sivert on one line
> and the rest on the second. I assume this was an error, but I can change
> back if necessary. I would still like to remove the first instance of
> their last name to match the original scans.
>
> Here's a mock-up of the cover

> Screenshot 2024-09-23 at 13-57-22 The cover for the Standard Ebooks
> edition of The Fisher Girl by Bjørnstjerne Bjørnson. Translated by
> Sivert Hjerleid and Elizabeth Hjerleid.png
>
> On Saturday, September 21, 2024 at 4:29:04 PM UTC-5 Brendan Fattig wrote:
>
> One more thing,
> The title page puts a line break after the first name of the first
> translator and everything else on the second line which looks
> awkward. (see attachment)
> A couple of options I thought of:
> 1) Manually add line break after the first translator's last name
> 2) Since the translators share a last name, remove the first
> instance of the last name (i.e. "Sivert and Elizabeth Hjerleid")
>

> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.0/7-high-level-structural-patterns#7.5.4> and eyeball it until it looks right. If I had to guess from past experience, the first example looks like an i1, the second an i4, and the third and i8, but you should try it out yourself.

>
> On Friday, September 13, 2024 at 1:02:29 PM UTC-4 Brendan
> Fattig wrote:
>
> When formatting poetry and songs, should I choose
> indentation classes relative to every poem/song in the
> work? Or should I treat each individual poem/song as
> separate.
>
> For example, attached are three different poems; which
> indentation classes should I choose for each?
>
> On Friday, September 6, 2024 at 4:38:48 AM UTC-5
> lukasby...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Herr is a loan word that appears in the standard
> Merriam Webster dictionary
> (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Herr

> <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Herr>)

>> * You could clear out some of

>> the PG cruft any time (I
>> usually do this as soon as I
>> notice it). E.g., all those `
>> class="normal"` in `<p
>> class="normal">` could be
>> removed in a single
>> search/replace. Similarly `<hr
>> class="W10"/>` -> `<hr/>`,
>> although you'll want to
>> confirm those are properly
>> thematic breaks

>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.0/single-page#4.1.1.2.7> from your scan source.

>> * Since you're up to semantics,

>> this would be a good time to
>> wrap your chapter heading `h2`
>> and `h3` in an
>> `<hgroup>...</hgroup>`
>> wrapper. And...

>> * See the third example here
>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.0/single-page#6.2.1.6.3> - the `<h3>...</h3>` needs to be a `<p  epub:type="title">...</p>` - although I find it convenient to make this change after doing the "hgroup" change, since it's easier to target an `</h3>` in a search/replace than a `</p>`!
>> * Chapter name/titles will need

>> to be titlecased - you can
>> refer to this thread

>> <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/z2-RKdlXp20/> to see some solutions on how to do this swiftly (do experiment on a *copy* of your chapter-n.xhtml files, though!!). I usually do this at the "typogrify" step.

>>
>> But it looks like you're very much
>> on the right track. :) At this
>> point, it's probably best to come
>> back with specific questions if
>> they arise; the review will
>> eventually look over the repo and
>> work as a whole. Hope this helps!
>>
>> David / Fife, UK
>>
>> On Thursday 5 September 2024 at
>> 05:28:06 UTC+1 Brendan Fattig wrote:
>>
>> Here is the public github
>> repo. I've gotten through step
>> 13 of the guide and want to
>> make sure I haven't gone
>> sorely wrong before I start
>> manually adding semantics.
>>

>> https://github.com/brendanny/bjornstjerne-bjornson_the-fisher-girl_sivert-hjerleid_elizabeth-hjerleid <https://github.com/brendanny/bjornstjerne-bjornson_the-fisher-girl_sivert-hjerleid_elizabeth-hjerleid>

>> https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics>
>>
>> https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns>
>>
>> https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography>

>>
>> The step by step guide
>> will take you from start
>> to finish:
>>

>> https://standardebooks.org/contribute/producing-an-ebook-step-by-step <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/producing-an-ebook-step-by-step>

>>
>> Please email often if you
>> have any questions at all.
>> Our standards are
>> well-established so there
>> is probably already a
>> standard for formatting
>> whatever problem you've
>> encountered.
>>
>> When you're ready, email
>> back with a link to your
>> Github repository so
>> that I can mark you as
>> having started.
>>
>> Have fun! :)
>>
>>
>> On 9/4/24 4:14 PM, Brendan
>> Fattig wrote:
>> > Excited to try my hand
>> at producing my first
>> ebook and this one looks
>> > relatively doable. It's
>> on the first production
>> wanted e-books list with
>> > the following sources.
>> >
>> > PG:

>> https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/37725 <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/37725>
>> > archive.org
>> <http://archive.org>
>> scans:

>> https://archive.org/details/fishergirl00bjgoog <https://archive.org/details/fishergirl00bjgoog>
>> > Original Norwegian scans:
>> >
>> https://www.nb.no/items/21e10c74de3104246b4663beff814676 <https://www.nb.no/items/21e10c74de3104246b4663beff814676>

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c79f0964-4da6-455a-934f-01e309d139f4n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c79f0964-4da6-455a-934f-01e309d139f4n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c79f0964-4da6-455a-934f-01e309d139f4n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c79f0964-4da6-455a-934f-01e309d139f4n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>>
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[Brendan Fattig]

Alex Cabal wrote:

Don't remove their last name, in the metadata they are individual people therefore they should appear in the titlepage as individual people as well.

Very well. Makes sense to me. Was the initial placement created by `se create-draft` a bug or is the producer meant to change things around on the titlepage anyway?

—brendan

[Alex Cabal]

You can adjust that, it's not set in stone

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[Lukas Bystricky]

>Does this need to be in a "correcting transcription" commit or can I combine with the other non-editorial changes?

You can have a single commit fixing any transcription errors you find, including this one.

 >Should I also add a language tag?

Actually I suppose it's find to use <i> with the language tag "und" (8.2.9.8).

I'm about 90% confident commit 556d3b3 is fine, but it would be a real pain to revert later, so this is something else that Alex should confirm first. 

[Alex Cabal]

Re. und vs x- for language, this is mostly for our own internal use
because either way a reading system isn't going to know what to do with
it. und is for when we actually don't know what language it is - the
language is UNDefined. x- is a private space for custom languages. So if
we have an idea of what the language might be, then you can use x-. The
problem is that x- is limited to IIRC ~10 characters so you don't have
much space to make up a name that makes sense.

Commit to modernize dialog looks good!

On 9/23/24 11:51 PM, Lukas Bystricky wrote:
> >Does this need to be in a "correcting transcription" commit or can I
> combine with the other non-editorial changes?
> You can have a single commit fixing any transcription errors you find,
> including this one.
>
>  >Should I also add a language tag?
> Actually I suppose it's find to use <i> with the language tag "und"

> (8.2.9.8 <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.0/single-page#8.2.9.8>).

>
> I'm about 90% confident commit 556d3b3

> <https://github.com/brendanny/bjornstjerne-bjornson_the-fisher-girl_sivert-hjerleid_elizabeth-hjerleid/commit/556d3b3> is fine, but it would be a real pain to revert later, so this is something else that Alex should confirm first.

>
> On Tuesday, September 24, 2024 at 5:00:37 AM UTC+2 Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> You can adjust that, it's not set in stone
>
> On 9/23/24 9:59 PM, Brendan Fattig wrote:
> >> Alex Cabal wrote:
> >> Don't remove their last name, in the metadata they are individual
> >> people therefore they should appear in the titlepage as individual
> >> people as well.
> >
> > Very well. Makes sense to me. Was the initial placement created
> by `se
> > create-draft` a bug or is the producer meant to change things
> around on
> > the titlepage anyway?
> >
> > —brendan
> >
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> >

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[Brendan Fattig]

Am finishing up the dialogue and had some additional notes.

The words `despatch` and `gaol` are both ones that I did not recognize but are British spellings of "dispatch" and "jail". The British spellings do appear in M-W but as (presumably) these forms would not be familiar to an American reader, is it acceptable to change the spellings in an editorial commit? As an American reader, despatch was easy to figure what is meant—I assumed it was a transcription error at first—but gaol was impossible to guess.

The book is written in British English, so I'm not sure how much alteration is acceptable to Standard Ebooks.

—brendan

[Adam Stone]

I personally don’t think that British spellings should be changed to American ones. If you read works written in British English, the spelling “gaol” is quite common even now. It appears in, for instance, the Harry Potter novels if you read the original British versions. It also is easy to look up in a dictionary.

[Lukas Bystricky]

Yeah, we don't update British spellings. It would be too difficult to do in a systematic way and many older books use a combination of British and American spellings.

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[Alex Cabal]

To add to this, you can use Google N-gram to check the frequency of word
spellings. Make sure to change it to "British English". You will see
that gaol vs jail only flipped around 1980 which is too recent to
consider it "modern" (in the sense of the slow rate of change language
and spelling).

On 9/29/24 3:15 PM, Lukas Bystricky wrote:
> Yeah, we don't update British spellings. It would be too difficult to do
> in a systematic way and many older books use a combination of British
> and American spellings.
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 29, 2024, 21:56 Adam Stone <adams...@gmail.com
> <mailto:adams...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I personally don’t think that British spellings should be changed to
> American ones. If you read works written in British English, the
> spelling “gaol” is quite common even now. It appears in, for

> instance, the /Harry Potter/ novels if you read the original British

> <https://github.com/brendanny/bjornstjerne-bjornson_the-fisher-girl_sivert-hjerleid_elizabeth-hjerleid/commit/556d3b3 <https://github.com/brendanny/bjornstjerne-bjornson_the-fisher-girl_sivert-hjerleid_elizabeth-hjerleid/commit/556d3b3>> is fine, but it would be a real pain to revert later, so this is something else that Alex should confirm first.

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/8FF5457C-ED67-4DB7-A84F-E93C59EA8AB2%40fattig.net <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/8FF5457C-ED67-4DB7-A84F-E93C59EA8AB2%40fattig.net> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/8FF5457C-ED67-4DB7-A84F-E93C59EA8AB2%40fattig.net <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/8FF5457C-ED67-4DB7-A84F-E93C59EA8AB2%40fattig.net>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/8FF5457C-ED67-4DB7-A84F-E93C59EA8AB2%40fattig.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/8FF5457C-ED67-4DB7-A84F-E93C59EA8AB2%40fattig.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/8FF5457C-ED67-4DB7-A84F-E93C59EA8AB2%40fattig.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/8FF5457C-ED67-4DB7-A84F-E93C59EA8AB2%40fattig.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.

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[Brendan Fattig]

>Yeah, we don't update British spellings.

Okay! I'll leave them be.

On page 135/136 of the scans, the sentence `Yes, Petra read, but with the same result till she wearied him out.` is in quotes, but does not seem to be any sort of dialogue. My only other thought is that the quote should be around "Yes," instead of the whole sentence.

[Lukas Bystricky]

Hmm yeah that doesn't look like dialogue. I think you can move the quote so it's around the "yes". Editorial of course.

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[Brendan Fattig]

A little update on my progress.

After reading through some other books and looking over some other productions/doing a little work on some other books that I'm interested in, I think I was overzealous in adding line breaks to the later chapters; so, I'm gonna go back and re-do the dialog modernization. After that, I'm going to do another proofread to make sure the line breaks and quotes are okay. Hopefully we (I) can finish this up by mid-month :p

Also, after struggling to figure out what "engrasserer" could possibly be, I got suspicious of "Du est a great rascal" which is in the same letter. I originally thought it was french but after searching around I could not any translation that made sense. I eventually found this hymn that is labeled as Norwegian and uses "du est". So now, I think that this is norwegian and maybe "engrasserer" should also be labeled as norwegian.

If anyone speaks french or norwegian, I'd love a comment.

Thanks!

—brendan

After making the comment about `gaol`, I am now seeing that spelling everywhere online

[Lukas Bystricky]

I speak some Swedish, so maybe I can comment generally. "Du est" is apparently an older way of writing "you are" in Danish (and probably commonly understood in Norwegian), so you can tag that as Danish. After some more research "engrassere" is apparently an old Danish word one meaning of which can be to invite to a dance, which I think makes sense in context (the extra "r" is to make the verb into present tense"). So I would also tag this as Danish. 

[Robin Whittleton]

As someone that lives in Sweden and speaks conversational Swedish, I was scratching my head. So thanks for the reply Lukas 😅

-Robin

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[Lukas Bystricky]

Yeah, it wasn't at all obvious. Learning something new every day!

 Arguably it's a bit of a cop-out on the part of the translator to leave in random Danish words. Perhaps this is one of those cases where we could add an explanatory footnote?

[Brendan Fattig]

Wow, thank you! There is another "Authorized" translation 

with scans availablethat I'll cross check to see if that edition 

happened to translate these (when IA comes back up).

If so, could we translate these words in an editorial commit or at least

add footnotes as Lukas mentioned?

—brendan

[Alex Cabal]

Footnotes would work, with <cite>—S.E. Editor</cite>

On 10/9/24 5:27 PM, Brendan Fattig wrote:
> Wow, thank you! There is another "Authorized" translation
> with scans availablethat I'll cross check to see if that edition
> happened to translate these (when IA comes back up).
>
> If so, could we translate these words in an editorial commit or at least
> add footnotes as Lukas mentioned?
>
> —brendan
> On Wednesday, October 9, 2024 at 2:12:41 AM UTC-5 lukasby...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> Yeah, it wasn't at all obvious. Learning something new every day!
>
>  Arguably it's a bit of a cop-out on the part of the translator to
> leave in random Danish words. Perhaps this is one of those cases
> where we could add an explanatory footnote?
>
> On Wednesday, October 9, 2024 at 8:37:49 AM UTC+2 robin wrote:
>
> As someone that lives in Sweden and speaks conversational
> Swedish, I was scratching my head. So thanks for the reply Lukas 😅
>
> -Robin
>
>> On 9 Oct 2024, at 07:57, Lukas Bystricky
>> <lukasby...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I speak some Swedish, so maybe I can comment generally. "Du
>> est" is apparently an older way of writing "you are" in Danish
>> (and probably commonly understood in Norwegian), so you can
>> tag that as Danish. After some more research "engrassere" is
>> apparently anold Danish word

>> <https://ordnet.dk/ods/ordbog?entry_id=60158815&query=engagere&hi=engagere>one meaning of which can be to invite to a dance, which I think makes sense in context (the extra "r" is to make the verb into present tense"). So I would also tag this as Danish.

>>
>> On Wednesday, October 9, 2024 at 4:19:57 AM UTC+2 Brendan
>> Fattig wrote:
>>
>> A little update on my progress.
>> After reading through some other books and looking over
>> some other productions/doing a little work on some other
>> books that I'm interested in, I think I was overzealous in
>> adding line breaks to the later chapters; so, I'm gonna go
>> back and re-do the dialog modernization. After that, I'm
>> going to do another proofread to make sure the line breaks
>> and quotes are okay. Hopefully we (I) can finish this up
>> by mid-month :p
>>
>> Also, after struggling to figure out what "engrasserer"
>> could possibly be, I got suspicious of "Du est a great
>> rascal" which is in the same letter. I originally thought
>> it was french but after searching around I could not any
>> translation that made sense. I eventually found thishymn

>> <https://hymnary.org/text/kristus_du_est_den_lyse_dag>that

>> is labeled as Norwegian and uses "du est". So now, I think
>> that this is norwegian and maybe "engrasserer" should also
>> be labeled as norwegian.
>>
>> If anyone speaks french or norwegian, I'd love a comment.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> —brendan
>>
>> After making the comment about `gaol`, I am now seeing
>> that spelling everywhere online
>> On Monday, September 30, 2024 at 1:24:44 PM
>> UTC-5lukasby...@gmail.comwrote:
>>
>> Hmm yeah that doesn't look like dialogue. I think you
>> can move the quote so it's around the "yes". Editorial
>> of course.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2024, 19:32 Brendan Fattig
>> <bre...@fattig.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Yeah, we don't update British spellings.
>> Okay! I'll leave them be.
>>
>> Onpage 135/136

>> <https://archive.org/details/fishergirl00bjgoog/page/n138/mode/2up>of the scans, the sentence `Yes, Petra read, but with the same result till she wearied him out.` is in quotes, but does not seem to be any sort of dialogue. My only other thought is that the quote should be around "Yes," instead of the whole sentence.

>>
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[Brendan Fattig]

The other translation translates "engrasserer" as "empower" and "du est" as "you are".

Also... After looking through this other translation, I'm almost convinced to wait for a transcription of this version. Is there a way to find the reasoning on why a certain edition was chosen by Project Gutenberg for transcription?

[Lukas Bystricky]

That's good to know, but does empower really make sense in context?

There's no process for PG to choose translations. As long as it's public domain it can go on PG. There's nothing preventing multiple translations of the same work.

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[Vince]

And often (usually?) it’s whatever edition the person(s) working on the transcription had at hand.

[Brendan Fattig]

>That's good to know, but does empower really make sense in context?

Not particularly...

>There's no process for PG to choose translations. As long as it's public domain it can go on PG. There's nothing preventing multiple translations of the same work.

>And often (usually?) it’s whatever edition the person(s) working on the transcription had at hand.

I meant that both translations were available on IA when the transcription was published, so just wondering if they chose one over the other for any specific reason, other than convenience.

[Lukas Bystricky]

There's not really any way to tell unfortunately. There's no need for the project manager to justify the choice of translation or edition.

Probably the best thing you can do is to search online and see if there's an academic comparison of the translations somewhere.

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[Brendan Fattig]

A note on typogrify.

On four hyphen dashes, `se typogrify` first inserts an nbsp, two em-dashes, then another nbsp. Running it again removes the second nbsp. 

Is this expected?

[Alex Cabal]

You mean four - in a row? Very uncommon, that should be a two em dash.

On 10/13/24 4:20 PM, Brendan Fattig wrote:
> A note on typogrify.
> On four hyphen dashes, `se typogrify` first inserts an nbsp, two
> em-dashes, then another nbsp. Running it again removes the second nbsp.
>

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e137e726-5dd1-4365-a1b6-b6dfbb314ad9n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e137e726-5dd1-4365-a1b6-b6dfbb314ad9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

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[Brendan Fattig]

Yes, four '-' in a row. I converted all of them to single em dashes as they are not obscuring anything. Should they be two-em dashes anyway?

The transcription of the image I sent above is attached.
 

[Alex Cabal]

It is a two em dash in print, so it should be a two em dash in our text

On 10/14/24 10:49 AM, Brendan Fattig wrote:
> Yes, four '-' in a row. I converted all of them to single em dashes as
> they are not obscuring anything. Should they be two-em dashes anyway?
>
> The transcription of the image I sent above is attached.

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e137e726-5dd1-4365-a1b6-b6dfbb314ad9n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e137e726-5dd1-4365-a1b6-b6dfbb314ad9n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e137e726-5dd1-4365-a1b6-b6dfbb314ad9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e137e726-5dd1-4365-a1b6-b6dfbb314ad9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

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[Vince]

Really? Our source texts often use 2em dashes to show end-of-sentence pauses, and we have always converted those to single em. Why would that suddenly be different this time? We have only ever used 2em dashes for partial obfuscation.

[Alex Cabal]

I suppose you're right, I didn't look closely enough. OK, yes, an single
em dash is fine.

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[Brendan Fattig]

Should blockquotes (letters, verse, poems, etc) be quoted even if they
not being spoken aloud? See the the images for examples.

--
—brendan

[Alex Cabal]

Yes

[Brendan Fattig]

Finally finished up the dialog. Will do another proofread pass now, but
I'm getting a lint error on some dialog and not sure why:


y-031 | Manual Review | chapter-7.xhtml | Possible typo: Dialog tag
missing punctuation.


<p>“I have tried you in all ways,” he said “so I have no responsibility.
I assure you, my good girl, if I were to send my boots upon the stage,
or I were to send you, the impression would be just the
same⁠—<abbr>viz.</abbr>, a very remarkable one. So that must end the
matter!”</p>


--
—brendan

[Weijia Cheng]

It wants a comma after “he said”

[Brendan Fattig]

>It wants a comma after “he said”

amazing. thanks weijia
—brendan

[bre...@fattig.net]

A little (large?) update on my progress here.

I got about halfway through proofreading this before I had to stop because of Hjerleids' translation. Many of the phrasings and word choices seemed weird and unnatural, like the translators were translating word-by-word from the Dano-Norwegian. I didn't want to assume that this wasn't just how Bjornson wrote (or an artifact of 1870s English), though, so I started looking into the various translations of Bjornson's works and started reading Rasmus B. Anderson's translation: "The Fisher Maiden".

Anderson's translation has been much more natural and enjoyable to read. He translated most (all?) of Bjornson's works, and, if his prefaces are to be believed, he was friends with Bjornson and even hosted Bjornson when he visited Wisconsin. Anderson was a Norwegian-American, professor of Scandinavian Studies at University of Wisconsin-Madison, and US Ambassador to Denmark.

While Bjornson has never been widely read in the English-speaking world, he was one of the first Nobel laureates and is one of the foundational authors of Norwegian literature; I think it important that we use the best translation available even if we need to wait for a transcription.

I've started transcribing Anderson's translation at Wikisource.

I welcome any thoughts and ideas y'all have on Bjornson, translations, etc. and perspectives from those with more experience with Scandinavian literature.

For a comparison of the translations, take a look at Chapter VII:

• Anderson
• Hjerleid

—brendan

What a first project...

[Alex Cabal]

OK, sounds good. I agree that the Anderson translation sounds better. I
will update the project to list the new translator.

On 1/11/25 1:02 PM, bre...@fattig.net wrote:
> A little (large?) update on my progress here.
>
> I got about halfway through proofreading this before I had to stop
> because of Hjerleids' translation. Many of the phrasings and word
> choices seemed weird and unnatural, like the translators were
> translating word-by-word from the Dano-Norwegian

> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dano-Norwegian>. I didn't want to assume

> that this wasn't just how Bjornson wrote (or an artifact of 1870s
> English), though, so I started looking into the various translations of
> Bjornson's works and started reading Rasmus B. Anderson's

> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasmus_B._Anderson> translation: "The
> Fisher Maiden
> <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89099941551&seq=5>".

>
> Anderson's translation has been much more natural and enjoyable to read.
> He translated most (all?) of Bjornson's works, and, if his prefaces are
> to be believed, he was friends with Bjornson and even hosted Bjornson
> when he visited Wisconsin. Anderson was a Norwegian-American, professor
> of Scandinavian Studies at University of Wisconsin-Madison, and US
> Ambassador to Denmark.
>
> While Bjornson has never been widely read in the English-speaking world,
> he was one of the first Nobel laureates and is one of the foundational
> authors of Norwegian literature; I think it important that we use the
> best translation available even if we need to wait for a transcription.
>
> I've started transcribing Anderson's translation at Wikisource

> <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Fisher_Maiden>.

>
> I welcome any thoughts and ideas y'all have on Bjornson, translations,
> etc. and perspectives from those with more experience with Scandinavian
> literature.
>
> For a comparison of the translations, take a look at Chapter VII:
>

> * Anderson <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89099941551&seq=125>
> * Hjerleid
> <https://gutenberg.org/cache/epub/37725/pg37725-images.html#div1_07>

>
> —brendan
>
> What a first project...
>
> On Monday, October 21, 2024 at 10:03:24 PM UTC-5 bre...@fattig.net wrote:
>
> >It wants a comma after “he said”
>
> amazing. thanks weijia
> —brendan
>

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[Brendan Fattig]

Okay, I’ve finished transcribing this. 

- Do we want to cut the Publishers’ Note[1]? It’s the exact same note in all of the “Author’s Edition”s of Anderson’s translations of Bjornson’s works.[2] Other editions of his translations do not have the Publishers’ Note.[3]

- How should I credit myself as the transcriber? Should I credit Wikisource in the colophon/imprint since I used their transcribing tools?

- Should the semantics on the Preface[1] be `z3998:translator-note`, `preface`, or `preface z3998:translator-note` (both)?

—brendan

[1] https://archive.org/details/fishermaiden00bjrn_0/page/n7/mode/2up

[2] https://archive.org/details/arne00bjgoog/page/n4/mode/2up

[3] https://archive.org/details/fishermaiden00andegoog/page/n8/mode/2up

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[Alex Cabal]

Lukas, thoughts?

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[Lukas Bystricky]

Sorry, I missed this.

1. I think you can cut that, but if you like you could give some details on the translation in the long description. 
2. Credit yourself as transcriber by adding "trc" as a role to the producer. If you only used the tools (i.e. it wasn't crowd-sourced or anything like on pgdp), then I don't think you need to credit Wikisource.
3. "preface z3998:translator-note" is fine. 
   

[Brendan Fattig]

There are three untranslated words in the text that I noticed; none of which are italicized. (Only ones that *are* italicized are “rôle” and “début”).

For context, literary Norwegian at the time (mid-1800s) was essentially just Danish (Dano-Norwegian with an IETF tag of 'da-NO’). Norwegian has since had many reforms to separate itself.

Additionally, Modern Norwegian has two written variants: Nynorsk and the more conservative Bokmål. Bokmål is more popular. 

Thus I have a few semantics and editorial questions regarding language tagging and modernization.

The three words that are untranslated are “amtmand” (magistrate), “gard” (farm or estate), and “jomfru” (young woman, used as a title “Jomfru Petra"). Out of the three, “gard” and “jomfru” occur in both Danish and modern Norwegian. Whereas, “amtmand” only occurs in Danish and the modern Norwegian equivalent is “amtmann”.

1. Do we want to italicize each of these?
2. “gard” is today spelled “gård” in bokmal (from what I could find, I think “gard” is also a word but with different meaning?): https://ordbokene.no/nno/bm/19096. Should I change the spelling?
3. Should I shift “amtmand” to “amtmann”?
4. “Ö” character is used throughout in names (both the author’s and a character’s). The correct Norwegian letter is “Ø”, and that is what is used in the original Norwegian publication. (“Ö” or “O” was commonly substituted for printing reasons: [O|Ö|Ø]degaard.) Can I change the character to “Ø”?
5. If I didn't change these, I was going to tag them all as `da-NO` (Danish in Norway), but if I do change these, I presume I’d tag them all as “nb” (Norwegian Bokmål)
6. Which of these would be editorial? I think 1, 2 and 3 but not 4?
7. While “amtmand” has a footnote to give a translation, neither “gard” nor “jomfru” do. Should I add translations in footnotes? (e.g. “Estate.” and “A title given to young women.”)

Usages for reference:

- amtmand (p.22): https://archive.org/details/fishermaiden00bjrn_0/page/22/mode/2up?q=amtmand

- gard (p.149): https://archive.org/details/fishermaiden00bjrn_0/page/148/mode/2up?q=%22gard%22

- Jomfru (pp. 260-261): https://archive.org/details/fishermaiden00bjrn_0/page/260/mode/2up?q=%22jomfru%22

Thanks!

—brendan

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[Lukas Bystricky]

Ok, time to see how much my limited Swedish helps with Danish and Norwegian...

In general, as I understand it, nynorsk, though less common, is a valid form of Norwegian. Jon Fosse, who won the Nobel Prize a couple years ago, writes primarily in nynorsk. So if a word exists in nynorsk I wouldn't change it to bokmål. You could however change Danish words that don't exist in nynorsk, depending on context.

To answer your specific questions:

1. Yes.
2. Keep and tag as "nn" (nynorsk)
3. It depends on context, but you could either keep and tag as danish, or change to antmann and tag as "nn"
4. This can be changed, I believe this has been done before.
5. For consistency tag any norwegian words as "nn"
   
6. Points 3 and 4 are editorial. Generally spelling/punctuation changes are editorial, changes in formatting are not.
   
7. Sure, again this has been done before. Add a  <cite>—⁠<abbr epub:type="z3998:initialism">S.E.</abbr> Editor</cite> to any endnotes you add. Mark this as editorial as well.
   

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[Claus Maack Andersen]

Don't mean to barge in here, but I enjoy following the discussions in these threads. I'm Danish, so I thought I could give my two cents.

Bjørnstjerne Bjørnsson was an advocate of riksmål, which is what would later evolve into bokmål, so I wouldn't think any of these words should be tagged as nynorsk. And while nynorsk is an official form of written Norwegian, it is much less common.

And "gard" looks like a misspelling to me, or an anglicisation of the word. The correct spelling for the time it was written would be "gaard". Double a was the common way of writing å in Danish and Norwegian at that time.

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[Lukas Bystricky]

I also found the spelling of gard strange (it would be gård in Swedish too), but apparently that is the correct spelling in nynorsk (see here).

I don't have a particularly strong opinion on it, but I would argue that since both nynorsk and bokmål are official kinds of Norwegian that we shouldn't switch between them, for the same reason we don't change UK english to American english. I wasn't aware of Bjørnstjerne Bjørnsson's advocacy of riksmål though. It might be instructive to see how it was written in the original Norwegian.

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[Brendan Fattig]

The original Norwegian uses “gaard”[1] and “amtmanden”[2].

I think it's pretty unlikely that Anderson was intentionally using Nynorsk; American typesetters probably couldn’t or wouldn’t print `å` or maybe Anderson was anglicizing. That it happens to be the spelling used in Nynorsk seems more an accident of spelling and typesetting constraints. I agree with Claus and think `nn` would be wrong in all cases and would vouch for either `nb` or make no decision and use `no`.

[1] p.105, para. 2: https://www.nb.no/items/21e10c74de3104246b4663beff814676?page=111

[2] p.13, para. 1: https://www.nb.no/items/21e10c74de3104246b4663beff814676?page=19

16 Jan 2025 06:05:38 Lukas Bystricky <lukasby...@gmail.com>:

…

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[Lukas Bystricky]

While printers errors or typographic constraints happen, they're relatively uncommon, so I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to what's printed. In this case it means assuming that the translator meant to use Nynorsk, which is not at all unlikely, nor is it in any way wrong, or even outdated.

That said, if the author used gaard (which we would modernize to gård) there is an argument to revert back to that. I certainly don't think you have to, and I don't think I would, but if you want to you can. In that case tag all the Norwegian words as "nb". 

[Brendan Fattig]

Reviewing my cover art submission that I made back in September and I’ve got some notes.

The art I picked is Graziella by Jules-Joseph Lefebvre.[1]

It's a depiction of the eponymous character of the novel Graziella[2] by French author Alphonse de Lamartine.

If Lamartine's novel is something we’d produce, I think it would be better to save this artwork for that work and I’ll try to find something else.

How about From the Inlet of Oslo?[3] It matches well with the main character arriving in the Bergen harbor and multiple other occasions of characters rowing out on boats.

Also, I think the artist name for Graziella should be changed in the db:

• Jules-Joseph Lefebvre is “Jules Lefebvre” at the LOC,[4] the French Académie des Beaux-Arts,[5] and the French wiki.[6]
• "Jules Joseph Lefebvre” at the English wiki[7]

—brendan

[1] https://standardebooks.org/artworks/jules-joseph-lefebvre/graziella

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graziella

[3] https://standardebooks.org/artworks/hans-gude/from-the-inlet-of-oslo

[4] http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/nb2007017414

[5] https://www.academiedesbeauxarts.fr/en/node/553

[6] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Lefebvre

[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Joseph_Lefebvre

[Lukas Bystricky]

I haven't heard anyone suggesting Graziella as a possible production but it's always a possibility. Unless you're considering producing it yourself I don't think it's a huge problem; there's probably very few people who would recognize that as Graziella.

I don't think I have the ability to change the artist's name or add an alias, what do you think Alex?

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[Alex Cabal]

Best to leave it available, we could very well do that work in the future.

On 1/23/25 11:58 PM, Lukas Bystricky wrote:
> I haven't heard anyone suggesting Graziella as a possible production but
> it's always a possibility. Unless you're considering producing it
> yourself I don't think it's a huge problem; there's probably very few
> people who would recognize that as Graziella.
>
> I don't think I have the ability to change the artist's name or add an
> alias, what do you think Alex?
>
>
> Den tors 23 jan. 2025 20:45Brendan Fattig <brenda...@gmail.com

> <mailto:brenda...@gmail.com>> skrev:

>
> Reviewing my cover art submission that I made back in September and
> I’ve got some notes.
>

> The art I picked is /Graziella /by Jules-Joseph Lefebvre.[1]

>
> It's a depiction of the eponymous character of the novel

> /Graziella/[2]//by French author Alphonse de Lamartine.

>
> If Lamartine's novel is something we’d produce, I think it would be
> better to save this artwork for that work and I’ll try to find
> something else.
>

> How about /From the Inlet of Oslo/?[3] It matches well with the main

> character arriving in the Bergen harbor and multiple other occasions
> of characters rowing out on boats.
>

> Also, I think the artist name for /Graziella/ should be changed in
> the db:
>
> * Jules-Joseph Lefebvre is “Jules Lefebvre” at the LOC,[4] the

> French Académie des Beaux-Arts,[5] and the French wiki.[6]

> * "Jules Joseph Lefebvre” at the English wiki[7]

>
>
>
> —brendan
>
> [1]
> https://standardebooks.org/artworks/jules-joseph-lefebvre/graziella
> <https://standardebooks.org/artworks/jules-joseph-lefebvre/graziella>
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graziella
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graziella>
> [3]
> https://standardebooks.org/artworks/hans-gude/from-the-inlet-of-oslo
> <https://standardebooks.org/artworks/hans-gude/from-the-inlet-of-oslo>
> [4] http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/nb2007017414
> <http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/nb2007017414>
> [5] https://www.academiedesbeauxarts.fr/en/node/553
> <https://www.academiedesbeauxarts.fr/en/node/553>
> [6] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Lefebvre
> <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Lefebvre>
> [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Joseph_Lefebvre
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Joseph_Lefebvre>
>
>
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[Lukas Bystricky]

I was wondering why it had already been assigned, but I see now that I'd already assigned it months ago. I'll remove it then, and switch it over to Brendan's second choice. 

[Brendan Fattig]

I know it doesn't matter for publishing purposes but it might now that we're tracking in-progress books and for the art db:

The title is now "The Fisher Maiden"

24 Jan 2025 16:29:33 Lukas Bystricky <lukasby...@gmail.com>:

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[Lukas Bystricky]

Thanks for pointing that out. I've updated the placeholder. 

[Lukas Bystricky]

Hi Brendan. Are you still working on this?

[Brendan Fattig]

I had shelved it for a bit because ~life~ but finally got the time to start proofing it again this week.

Since I transcribed this from scratch, proofing will take longer than usual but no longer than a week or two. Thanks!

—brendan

30 Mar 2025 08:47:23 Lukas Bystricky <lukasby...@gmail.com>:

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[Lukas Bystricky]

No problem, glad you're back on it!

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