Balzac

[Vince]

Let’s start a thought experiment that might not go anywhere.

Like Proust, I’ve heard of Balzac all of my life, but never read any of his works. And, like Proust, I foolishly started looking into him, more specifically La Comédie humaine (The Human Comedy). As it turns out, PG has (almost?) all of it, or at least all of it that he finished. (I haven’t found one of the analytical studies works yet, but it may be a not knowing the right name problem.)

The thought experiment is how it would be packaged, in the theoretical chance that someone(s) might want to work on it.

The Wiki article is a good place to start (and I’m sure François can tell us everything it got wrong), but there are 90-100 different “works” that make up the whole thing, broken up into three categories:

• Study of manners
• Philosophical studies
• Analytical studies

Study of manners is itself broken into six subcategories:

• Scenes from private life
• Scenes from provincial life
• Scenes from Parisian life
• Scenes from political life
• Scenes from military life
• Scenes from country life

Some of the “works" are novels, some of them are novellas, and a few short stories. They were not written in order, some of them Balzac moved between Scenes over time, some of them he wrote independently but then included in La Comédie later, and many of them he modified over time, sometimes extensively.

The Wiki has what it claims is the “final plan,” but I haven’t found somewhere else that confirms that independently.

The thought experiment is that packaging all of a “Scene” together (for the Study of manners category) would make for a very large production for a couple of the Scenes, and we would still need to identify each individual work within it, while packaging each of the individual works means we would have some short ones (the first two in the Wiki list, e.g., are only 20K'ish words each). For the other two top categories, Analytical studies only has two works, while Philosophical studies has twenty.

I shudder to have to come up with 90-100 different covers, though. That might be enough to kill the thought experiment right there… (Seriously, I’m getting the hives just thinking about it.)

A couple of the sites I’ve found, including the site of a Balzac museum in Paris, says reading it in the order Balzac specified is not necessarily the way to go, which might speak against using the Scenes as packaging.

Scenes from a private life, e.g., has almost 30 works, and there are no “subsets” shown. Although the first two are short (20K), I don’t know about the rest, yet. Maybe it would only turn out to be 2M words or less, which wouldn’t be too bad. But if the rest are novel-sized, it could end being 3M-4M. If we did that, would we have to finish the entire Scene to publish it, or could we do it like we’re doing Proust, publish it in progress and add to it as works within the scene are finished?

In the case of Scenes from provincial life, there are a few subdivisions within it, none with more than three works, so if the entire Scene was too big, then we could theoretically use the already existing subdivisions.

Scenes from a Parisian life has about 20 works, and the remaining ones are only a handful each. So, really, only the private and Parisian scenes and Philosopical studies might potentially pose a problem, size-wise. But, again, maybe we don’t want to package the whole Scenes together, to let people read them in whatever order they want. (Which, yes, they could do even if they’re packaged as Scenes, it would just be more of a hassle.)

All but two or three of the PG transcriptions are in the 1000-2000 ID range, so they’re all relatively early, which doesn’t bode well for the quality of the transcription, but I haven’t looked at any of them (other than to estimate the size of the first two).

I realize more information is needed, especially the size of all the works (interestingly, a quick search hasn’t yet turned up how many words is in the whole thing), but I thought this would at least allow us to start thinking of additional questions that I haven’t thought of yet.

[Alex Cabal]

I don't think I have an answer without seeing how long each work is. I
don't know much about the Human Comedy except that I did Father Goriot
some years ago. I figured most if not all of the entires were
novel-sized works that should be done independently. Whether or not it
makes sense to package the scenes depends on how long each one is and
how many there are. A spreadsheet would be necessary.

If we do package them, they should be released once and not over time.
Proust is an exception because the last part is not yet PD but will be
soonish. But, all of Balzac is already PD.

On 4/17/23 1:22 AM, Vince wrote:
> Let’s start a thought experiment that might not go anywhere.
>
> Like Proust, I’ve heard of Balzac all of my life, but never read any of
> his works. And, like Proust, I foolishly started looking into him, more
> specifically La Comédie humaine (The Human Comedy). As it turns out, PG
> has (almost?) all of it, or at least all of it that he finished. (I
> haven’t found one of the analytical studies works yet, but it may be a
> not knowing the right name problem.)
>
> The thought experiment is how it would be packaged, in the theoretical
> chance that someone(s) might want to work on it.
>

> The Wiki <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Com%C3%A9die_humaine> article

> is a good place to start (and I’m sure François can tell us everything
> it got wrong), but there are 90-100 different “works” that make up the
> whole thing, broken up into three categories:
>

> * Study of manners
> * Philosophical studies
> * Analytical studies

>
>
> Study of manners is itself broken into six subcategories:
>

> * Scenes from private life
> * Scenes from provincial life
> * Scenes from Parisian life
> * Scenes from political life
> * Scenes from military life
> * Scenes from country life

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[Vince]

I’ll get a spreadsheet up in the next day or two.

The approximate* word breakdown (using Wiki’s groupings) is:

• Private Life—882K
• Provincial Life—865K
• Parisian Life—1163K
• Political Life—294K
• Military Life—115K
• Country Life—313K
• Philosophical Studies—657K
• Analytical Studies—170K

for a total of around 4.5M words.

In total, 43 works are over our 40K limit and 51 are under.

Private, has 8 over the limit and 20 under it (ranging from 3.5K to 30K, with seven under 10K).

Provincial has 11 out of 13 over the limit, 2 well under.

Parisian has 9 over and 9 under.

Political has 3 over and 3 under.

Military has 1 over and 1 way under (5K).

Country has all 3 over.

Philosophical studies only has 6 over and 16 (mostly well) under.

Analytical studies has both 2 over.

(As an aside, Father Goriot isn’t listed as “first” in either PG’s order or the Wiki order.)

*For expediency’s sake, I just copied the text of each from the respective PG web page and pasted into an editor that shows a word count. It’s not exact, but close enough for this discussion.

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[Vince]

Found this fun fact here: two people typed all but one story of PG’s Comédie Humaine transcriptions, and they proofread each other’s work. (They were working from two different editions.)

One of the guys at PG once held an informal proofreading contest. He gave the same text to everyone who wanted to participate and we sent a corrected text to him. John and I came in first and second. After we had each submitted our corrected text, we asked if we could send an extra entry with our cross-proofing and it was near perfect.   John and I did well proofing each other’s work because we tend to make different types of errors.

Don’t know how/if they handled italics and diacritics yet, though.

The site also has a suggested reading order, with Father Goriot listed first, so that may be where you got it.

[Alex Cabal]

I don't remember where I got the order, that may have been before we
even did collection ordering and later we just defaulted to 1.

On 4/17/23 4:59 PM, Vince wrote:
> Found this fun fact here

> <https://balzacbooks.wordpress.com/translations/>: two people typed all
> but one story of PG’s /Comédie Humaine/ transcriptions, and they

> proofread each other’s work. (They were working from two different
> editions.)
>
> One of the guys at PG once held an informal proofreading contest. He
> gave the same text to everyone who wanted to participate and we sent a
> corrected text to him. John and I came in first and second. After we had
> each submitted our corrected text, we asked if we could send an extra
> entry with our cross-proofing and it was near perfect.   John and I did
> well proofing each other’s work because we tend to make different types
> of errors.
>
> Don’t know how/if they handled italics and diacritics yet, though.
>

> The site also has a suggested reading order, with /Father Goriot/ listed

> first, so that may be where you got it.
>
>> On Apr 17, 2023, at 4:34 PM, Vince <vr_se...@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>>
>> I’ll get a spreadsheet up in the next day or two.
>>
>> The approximate* word breakdown (using Wiki’s groupings) is:
>>

>> * Private Life—882K
>> * Provincial Life—865K
>> * Parisian Life—1163K
>> * Political Life—294K
>> * Military Life—115K
>> * Country Life—313K
>> * Philosophical Studies—657K
>> * Analytical Studies—170K

>>>> send an email tostandardeboo...@googlegroups.com
>>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com><mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>>.

>>>> To view this discussion on the web

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[Vince]

Here’s the spreadsheet. Again, using the organization attested to by the Wiki article.

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[Alex Cabal]

OK. I think this is going to be tough to categorize in our format.

Each of the categories contains several novel length works, sometimes
quite a few, so I don't think it makes sense to just do a gigantic
collection for each scene. For some of these it would result in lumping
10 novels together with a handful of short stories. Very hard to search
for and read as a practical matter.

Some of the scenes, like Provincial Life, only have a few shorts - 2/11.
So how do we group the remaining shorts? Maybe do long works
individually, and then do a "Shorts from <SCENE>" collection for each scene?

On 4/17/23 7:48 PM, Vince wrote:
> Here’s
> <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_kpMUe3RoP0pCtwc6zaBvuBRyR7vvIcR-PqgHiFnjw0/edit?usp=sharing> the spreadsheet. Again, using the organization attested to by the Wiki article <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Com%C3%A9die_humaine>.

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4603FAF4-DD79-45E9-AB72-1E5500B14392%40letterboxes.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4603FAF4-DD79-45E9-AB72-1E5500B14392%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Vince]

OK. How do you want to show the series (set?) information? I would think we want to show both Human Comedy and the particular Scene/Philosophical/Analytical Studies?
Either way, will we show a number? Are we going to use the Wiki order for our order?
And if so, what # would we use for the Shorts? Is it possible to have a series/set name without a number? It would make sense (to me) to just show the shorts as being in whatever scene, without specifying the #, if that’s possible.

[Alex Cabal]

It's possible to have a series without a number, just omit that
metadata. I don't think our website can deal with series that have some
numbered and some unnumbered though.

I don't have an opinion on the ordering right now and for a project of
this magnitude that's probably not even that important at this point. It
looks like there are several valid ways of looking at it so we should
just pick one and stick with it.

[Vince]

Excellent. I would probably vote for not worrying about numbering on any of them. The actual “order” within a scene doesn’t seem to be much of a thing, just the structure, so if we just show everything as being in “Scene from…” and “The Human Comedy” then I would think that is enough. Especially since the shorts will all be together. (Thinking (way) ahead, I don’t know if it’s currently possible to “sort” different sets, but it would be nice™ if someone chose the “Human Comedy” collection that it sorted the scenes together as well. That implies a relationship between two sets that we don’t currently have the ability to record, and maybe it's not feasible. Just a thought.)

I have probably months to go to finish proofing Proust (everything you’ve heard about his sentences are true), but I may start playing around with the Scenes from a Private Life shorts just to noodle around.

Thanks!

[Vince]

Like Maupassant, the French titles of Balzac’s works were translated differently into English by different editions, of which at least two different ones were used for PG’s transcriptions.

Unlike Maupassant, PG did not always use the name in the translation for the name of the transcription. For example, the Clara Bell version of La Paix du Menage is called Peace in the House, but PG entitled it Domestic Peace (which I believe is the name of the Wormeley version). They did this several other times as well.

I assume we want to use the name on the scans, not the name on the transcription?

Also, there is a famous Balzac introduction for Comédie Humaine from a 1842 edition. It would normally be included in the first “volume," but we aren’t going to have “volumes” per se. Since the first two works in the first Scene (Private Life) are shorts, and most of that Scene is in fact shorts, I’m thinking of including it in that volume (Shorts from Scenes from Private Life). Does that sound reasonable?

[Alex Cabal]

Yes to both, thanks!

On 4/23/23 11:31 PM, Vince wrote:
> Like Maupassant, the French titles of Balzac’s works were translated
> differently into English by different editions, of which at least two
> different ones were used for PG’s transcriptions.
> Unlike Maupassant, PG did not always use the name in the translation for
> the name of the transcription. For example, the Clara Bell version of

> /La Paix du Menage/ is called /Peace in the House/, but PG entitled it
> /Domestic Peace/ (which I /believe/ is the name of the Wormeley

> version). They did this several other times as well.
>
> I assume we want to use the name on the scans, not the name on the
> transcription?
>
> Also, there is a famous Balzac introduction for Comédie Humaine from a
> 1842 edition. It would normally be included in the first “volume," but
> we aren’t going to have “volumes” per se. Since the first two works in
> the first Scene (Private Life) are shorts, and most of that Scene is in
> fact shorts, I’m thinking of including it in that volume (Shorts from
> Scenes from Private Life). Does that sound reasonable?
>

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[Vince]

The article about Balzac translators referred to in another thread today is on JStor. I had already been thinking along the lines of choosing one edition (translator) or the other for our editions; it doesn’t make sense to me to use two. As it so happens, only four of the PG shorts from Private Life are from Wormeley, so using Bell/Marriage for them is an easy way to dip a toe into the water.

[Vince]

I’ve encountered two of these so far, i.e. the apostrophe on the “who”:

[Alex Cabal]

Yes, this must be a contraction for "whom". I guess it's technically
correct so let's just leave it for onw.

On 4/27/23 9:06 PM, Vince wrote:
> I’ve encountered two of these so far, i.e. the apostrophe on the “who”:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> I thought the first one was just a mistake, but after the second, I assume it’s intentional. I can only guess that it’s a “contraction" for “whom”?
>
> Alex, should I retain the quotes or remove them?
>

[François Grandjean]

Chiming in since I’m mentioned in the first message: I’m hardly an expert on Balzac but the organisation you linked to from Wikipedia appears to be the canonical one. That’s what La Pleiade uses if I’m not mistaken and they are considered the experts when it comes to classic French authors.

[Vince]

Ran across a “no one’s else,” which sounded really odd to me. I did some web searching and couldn’t find anything, i.e. any occurrences or discussions.x We have three other occurrences in the corpus (two in Tristram Shandy and one in The Monk).

Leave it?

[Alex Cabal]

Very unusual. I guess we can leave it since it's not really spelling per se.

On 5/4/23 8:41 PM, Vince wrote:
> Ran across a “no one’s else,” which sounded really odd to me. I did some
> web searching and couldn’t find anything, i.e. any occurrences or
> discussions.x We have three other occurrences in the corpus (two in

> /Tristram Shandy/ and one in /The Monk/).
>
> PastedGraphic-1.png
>
> Leave it?

>
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[Vince]

Alex, each of the works, short or long, the dedications are places prior to the first paragraph of the work, not separately. For all of the long works, moving it to its own page is NBD. For the shorts, it’s still NBD, but he pretty much has a dedication for every work, so we will have as many dedication pages as we have shorts in the work. I just want to make sure that’s what we want to do before I go to the trouble of breaking all of these out.

Some examples, first of the shorts works. Most are one-liners, but there are occasionally longer ones (“The Purse”)

This is a standalone work, with a longer dedication; as mentioned, separating this to its own page is NBD.

[Alex Cabal]

For the short works you can put them in a <header> that contains the
title and dedication. If it's very long, like longer than a short
paragraph, then you could do a separate page, otherwise in a small
ereader it the header could take up a whole screen.

On 5/10/23 11:25 PM, Vince wrote:
> Alex, each of the works, short or long, the dedications are places prior
> to the first paragraph of the work, not separately. For all of the long
> works, moving it to its own page is NBD. For the shorts, it’s still NBD,
> but he pretty much has a dedication for every work, so we will have as
> many dedication pages as we have shorts in the work. I just want to make
> sure that’s what we want to do before I go to the trouble of breaking
> all of these out.
>
> Some examples, first of the shorts works. Most are one-liners, but there
> are occasionally longer ones (“The Purse”)
>
>
>
>
>

> This is a standalone work, with a longer dedication; as mentioned,
> separating this to its own page is NBD.
>

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[Vince]

Cover art for a shorts collection is always a challenge for me, and especially so in this case. I’ve been looking for something that communicated the idea of a “private life,” that also fit the geography and time period, and not having a lot of luck.

But I ran across this one today, which has the serendipitous title of “Le salon de Madame de Balzac, rue Fortunée.” PD proof here.

[Alex Cabal]

Looks good!

On 7/29/23 5:26 PM, Vince wrote:
> Cover art for a shorts collection is always a challenge for me, and
> especially so in this case. I’ve been looking for something that

> communicated the /idea/ of a “private life,” that also fit the geography

> and time period, and not having a lot of luck.
>
> But I ran across this one today, which has the serendipitous title of
> “Le salon de Madame de Balzac, rue Fortunée.” PD proof here

> <https://www.parismuseescollections.paris.fr/fr/maison-de-balzac/oeuvres/le-salon-de-madame-de-balzac-rue-fortunee>.
> PastedGraphic-1.png

>
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[Vince]

I have a standalone phoneme with a following period. I did not include the period in the phoneme because … well, it’s a phoneme, and the period isn’t part of it. :) Lint of course complains that the period should be included because it’s a “complete clause” being italicized.

Am I correct in assuming that the period shouldn’t be included in the tag and I therefore need an ignore record? Or should the period be included?

[Alex Cabal]

What does the source code look like?

[Vince]

<p>“<i epub:type="z3998:phoneme">Prrr</i>.”</p>

(The next sentence talks about his “roll of consonants,” which is why I made it a phoneme rather than a sound, but that could go either way as well.)

The message is “correct” in that the period is outside. But, I’m assuming that a phoneme is like a ship/book/etc. and it should be outside, and therefore I need an ignore record. I’m just making sure.

[Alex Cabal]

Let's just remove the semantics. I think that works as a general sound
and I'm not sure if it's a phoneme in the strictest definition of the word.

On 7/31/23 11:55 AM, Vince wrote:
> <p>“<i epub:type="z3998:phoneme">Prrr</i>.”</p>
>
> (The next sentence talks about his “roll of consonants,” which is why I
> made it a phoneme rather than a sound, but that could go either way as
> well.)
>
> The message is “correct” in that the period is outside. But, I’m

> assuming that a phoneme is like a ship/book/etc. and it /should/ be

> outside, and therefore I need an ignore record. I’m just making sure.
>

> PastedGraphic-1.png
>
>> On Jul 31, 2023, at 11:25 AM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>>
>> What does the source code look like?
>>
>> On 7/30/23 4:35 PM, Vince wrote:
>>> I have a standalone phoneme with a following period. I did not
>>> include the period in the phoneme because … well, it’s a phoneme, and
>>> the period isn’t part of it. :) Lint of course complains that the
>>> period should be included because it’s a “complete clause” being
>>> italicized.
>>> Am I correct in assuming that the period shouldn’t be included in the
>>> tag and I therefore need an ignore record? Or should the period be
>>> included?
>

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[Vince]

No problem, I went back and forth on that myself.

But, the question still remains in theory. Should punctuation be included “inside” a phoneme, or should it stay outside like a ship/book name, etc.? IOW, if that was a phoneme, should the period be as shown, or inside the tags?

[Alex Cabal]

Phonemes should not have punctuation. However clauses that are noises
(like this one) can have punctuation within italics that don't have any
other semantics.

On 7/31/23 12:32 PM, Vince wrote:
> No problem, I went back and forth on that myself.
>
> But, the question still remains in theory. Should punctuation be
> included “inside” a phoneme, or should it stay outside like a ship/book

> name, etc.? IOW, if that /was/ a phoneme, should the period be as shown,

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[Vince]

Right, I knew the latter, it was the former I was interested in. Thanks!

[Vince]

I believe Shorts from Scenes from Private Life is ready for review.

There are a few unsemanticated italics. I believe they are justified, but let me know if you think differently.

I have added collection data for both “The Human Comedy” and “Scenes from Private Life”. I did not put sequences on them, because this is a short story collection, so it wouldn’t make sense, and the sequence within each of the Scenes doesn’t seem to matter much. (We should probably remove the sequence from Father Goriot as well.)

Apropos of nothing, I really wanted to format the titlepage/cover as

Scenes from

Scenes from Private Life

Although it fit on the cover, it didn’t on the title page, and from a review of the corpus it doesn’t appear that we ever change the font size of the titlepage, so I left it as is.

[Alex Cabal]

Great work Vince. I've opened a few issues for you to look at.

On 8/6/23 7:53 PM, Vince wrote:
> I believe /Shorts from Scenes from Private Life
> <https://github.com/vr8hub/honore-de-balzac_shorts-from-scenes-from-private-life_clara-bell_ellen-marriage> /is ready for review.

>
> There are a few unsemanticated italics. I believe they are justified,
> but let me know if you think differently.
> I have added collection data for both “The Human Comedy” and “Scenes
> from Private Life”. I did not put sequences on them, because this is a
> short story collection, so it wouldn’t make sense, and the sequence
> within each of the Scenes doesn’t seem to matter much. (We should

> probably remove the sequence from /Father Goriot/ as well.)

>
> Apropos of nothing, I really wanted to format the titlepage/cover as
> Scenes from
> Scenes from Private Life
> Although it fit on the cover, it didn’t on the title page, and from a
> review of the corpus it doesn’t appear that we ever change the font size
> of the titlepage, so I left it as is.
>

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> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
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[Alex Cabal]

OK, all very good, I've released it. Thanks!

For the collection metadata, I added "The Human Comedy: " to the Scenes
from Private Life metadata, to make it clear that the collection is part
of the Human Comedy.

On 8/6/23 7:53 PM, Vince wrote:

> I believe /Shorts from Scenes from Private Life
> <https://github.com/vr8hub/honore-de-balzac_shorts-from-scenes-from-private-life_clara-bell_ellen-marriage> /is ready for review.

>
> There are a few unsemanticated italics. I believe they are justified,
> but let me know if you think differently.
> I have added collection data for both “The Human Comedy” and “Scenes
> from Private Life”. I did not put sequences on them, because this is a
> short story collection, so it wouldn’t make sense, and the sequence
> within each of the Scenes doesn’t seem to matter much. (We should

> probably remove the sequence from /Father Goriot/ as well.)

>
> Apropos of nothing, I really wanted to format the titlepage/cover as
> Scenes from
> Scenes from Private Life
> Although it fit on the cover, it didn’t on the title page, and from a
> review of the corpus it doesn’t appear that we ever change the font size
> of the titlepage, so I left it as is.
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/E2EC2DF9-E91D-4DC6-9FC2-2000AA9FD187%40letterboxes.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/E2EC2DF9-E91D-4DC6-9FC2-2000AA9FD187%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Vince]

That’s why I had two separate collections, so people could eventually look for all of the Human Comedy, or for all of one of the scenes. Combining them is fine, though, I’ll do that going forward.

[Vince]

Oh, I see, you left the “Human Comedy” one and just prefixed the scene with it as well. Very good, I’ll do that going forward.