[Next] Leviathan, by Thomas Hobbes

[Paul Bryan]

From the wanted ebooks list, I'd like to take on Leviathan, by Thomas Hobbes as my next production.

Gutenberg: https://gutenberg.org/ebooks/3207
Google Books: https://www.google.ca/books?id=IgQoAQAAMAAJ

The Gutenberg transcription is based on a Penguin edition that is reported to be based on the original 1651 printing.

I'm proposing to reference and align with the scan of the more modern 1894 Routledge 4th edition, as it appears to follow conventions that align with Standard Ebooks' own. I'm not sure what the standard practice is about this though.

[Alex Cabal]

I think this will be a work of top tier difficulty.

I agree that we should use a later edition. 1894 Routledge seems as good
enough as any.

But if we're going to do that, we should use a different transcription,
because the editions differ heavily. Routledge "modernized" a lot of the
text in the same way we might (removing gratuitous capitalization,
adding quotation marks, etc.). It looks like they might have also remove
the shoulder notes that the PG transcriber mentions.

Since the PG transcription is closer to the first edition, you'll almost
end up re-transcribing it yourself. That's too much work for such a long
and dense book.

I suggest first finding a transcription of more modern edition. Then we
can go from there.

On 10/9/24 8:36 PM, 'Paul Bryan' via Standard Ebooks wrote:
> From the wanted ebooks list, I'd like to take on /Leviathan/, by Thomas

> Hobbes as my next production.
>
> Gutenberg: https://gutenberg.org/ebooks/3207
> <https://gutenberg.org/ebooks/3207>
> Google Books: https://www.google.ca/books?id=IgQoAQAAMAAJ
> <https://www.google.ca/books?id=IgQoAQAAMAAJ>
>
> The Gutenberg transcription is based on a Penguin edition that is
> reported to be based on the original 1651 printing.
>
> I'm proposing to reference and align with the scan of the more modern
> 1894 Routledge 4th edition, as it appears to follow conventions that
> align with Standard Ebooks' own. I'm not sure what the standard practice
> is about this though.
>

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[Paul Bryan]

I acknowledge how large an undertaking this will be.

There is a decent-looking transcription of the Bohn 1839 edition (edited by Molesworth) at the Online Library of Liberty:
https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/hobbes-the-english-works-vol-iii-leviathan

It modernizes spelling, but retains italics and the side shoulder notes.

Switching from italics to quotes per the 1894 Routledge edition should not prove difficult. I would also suggest dropping the shoulder notes per Routledge.

[Alex Cabal]

OK, that looks much better. Go ahead and do that. Please send a link to
your repo.

David can you manage this with Vince reviewing?

On 10/11/24 12:36 PM, 'Paul Bryan' via Standard Ebooks wrote:
> I acknowledge how large an undertaking this will be.
>
> There is a decent-looking transcription of the Bohn 1839 edition (edited
> by Molesworth) at the Online Library of Liberty:

> https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/hobbes-the-english-works-vol-iii-leviathan <https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/hobbes-the-english-works-vol-iii-leviathan>

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/5bd1d50c-39e6-4e97-b9a5-a3ac4139f0dan%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/5bd1d50c-39e6-4e97-b9a5-a3ac4139f0dan%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/5bd1d50c-39e6-4e97-b9a5-a3ac4139f0dan%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/5bd1d50c-39e6-4e97-b9a5-a3ac4139f0dan%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

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[Paul Bryan]

Repository link:

https://github.com/pbryan/thomas-hobbes_leviathan

[Paul Bryan]

Leviathan contains a diagram, which is treated in slightly different ways in various editions. Here are a couple of samples:

Reproducing the diagram in an SVG image seems fairly straightforward. Is that a reasonable approach?

[David]

I would say so – in fact, it's hard to see an alternative! I see from the ebook that I have access to through university library that they have attempted to convert the chart to a table...

... but (as they admit) it's not very satisfactory.

From the Hathi edition I'm looking at (hopefully IA will be up again soon!) that spelling has been modernized (unlike the screenshots you included). I see this was discussed with Alex earlier in the thread: presumably this SVG will have "mod-spell" as well? (Which would need to be signalled as [Editorial] somehow.)

This production will be challenge!

David / Fife, UK

On Friday 11 October 2024 at 23:10:26 UTC+1 Paul Bryan wrote:

Leviathan contains a diagram, which is treated in slightly different ways in various editions. Here are a couple of samples:

. . .

[David]

P.s. Just in case it would help to see some exemplars, there are SVG genealogical charts in the corpus, e.g.:

• Dorothy Sayers
• Pepys
• Bullfinch

Your chart has a horizontal rather than vertical orientation, but those might offer some "help". FWIW!

D.

On Saturday 12 October 2024 at 09:57:48 UTC+1 David wrote:

I would say so – in fact, it's hard to see an alternative! I see from the ebook that I have access to through university library that they have attempted to convert the chart to a table...

[Alex Cabal]

Yes. I suggest drawing a new SVG by hand using Inkscape instead of
tracing a page scan. This is a super basic case of SVG. You can use
actual text nodes for the text instead of tracing it.

On 10/11/24 5:10 PM, 'Paul Bryan' via Standard Ebooks wrote:
> /Leviathan/ contains a diagram, which is treated in slightly different

> ways in various editions. Here are a couple of samples:
>

> Screenshot From 2024-10-11 14-48-47.png

>
> Screenshot From 2024-10-11 15-08-36.png
>
> Reproducing the diagram in an SVG image seems fairly straightforward. Is
> that a reasonable approach?
>
> On Friday, October 11, 2024 at 11:01:54 AM UTC-7 Paul Bryan wrote:
>
> Repository link:
> https://github.com/pbryan/thomas-hobbes_leviathan
> <https://github.com/pbryan/thomas-hobbes_leviathan>
>
> On Friday, October 11, 2024 at 10:47:34 AM UTC-7 Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> OK, that looks much better. Go ahead and do that. Please send a
> link to
> your repo.
>
> David can you manage this with Vince reviewing?
>
> On 10/11/24 12:36 PM, 'Paul Bryan' via Standard Ebooks wrote:
> > I acknowledge how large an undertaking this will be.
> >
> > There is a decent-looking transcription of the Bohn 1839
> edition (edited
> > by Molesworth) at the Online Library of Liberty:
> >

> https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/hobbes-the-english-works-vol-iii-leviathan <https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/hobbes-the-english-works-vol-iii-leviathan> <https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/hobbes-the-english-works-vol-iii-leviathan <https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/hobbes-the-english-works-vol-iii-leviathan>>

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/5bd1d50c-39e6-4e97-b9a5-a3ac4139f0dan%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/5bd1d50c-39e6-4e97-b9a5-a3ac4139f0dan%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/5bd1d50c-39e6-4e97-b9a5-a3ac4139f0dan%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/5bd1d50c-39e6-4e97-b9a5-a3ac4139f0dan%40googlegroups.com>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/5bd1d50c-39e6-4e97-b9a5-a3ac4139f0dan%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/5bd1d50c-39e6-4e97-b9a5-a3ac4139f0dan%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/5bd1d50c-39e6-4e97-b9a5-a3ac4139f0dan%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/5bd1d50c-39e6-4e97-b9a5-a3ac4139f0dan%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.

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[Paul Bryan]

The examples are very helpful! Two of the three appear to have just converted everything to paths; was this to avoid embedding fonts? I'm thinking that using the Sorts Mill Goudy font for this diagram is appropriate, and retaining text in the SVG would be best.

It didn't occur to me about editorializing the spelling modernization within the SVG. If I keep the SVG as text, I think this would actually be easy to review (and adjust later if/when other modernizations are required).

[David]

A couple replies....

On Saturday 12 October 2024 at 16:51:51 UTC+1 Paul Bryan wrote:

The examples are very helpful! Two of the three appear to have just converted everything to paths; was this to avoid embedding fonts? I'm thinking that using the Sorts Mill Goudy font for this diagram is appropriate, and retaining text in the SVG would be best.

Probably the producers of those books just found the tracing quicker than reproducing with text, and no advantage to the latter. You'll see what Alex has said about retaining text nodes, too. You may have seen there's a "How to" for SVGs, but with a very specific use-case in mind. There's also a post in another production thread I've bookmarked that may have some relevant tips (although not the "tracing" part in this case).

 

It didn't occur to me about editorializing the spelling modernization within the SVG. If I keep the SVG as text, I think this would actually be easy to review (and adjust later if/when other modernizations are required).

I see now that the OLL edition/transcription you're using already has those modernizations (unlike the page screenshots you posted earlier), so this looks like it's already in place. Which is good. :) (IMO)

D.

[Paul Bryan]

I'm planning to perform a paragraph-by-paragraph reconciliation between the transcribed text of the Bohn 1839 edition and the 1894 Routledge 4th edition (and will defer to Routledge in case of differences). There will be differences in both punctuation and spelling. Will I be able to combine these spelling and punctuation changes in the same commit, or will I need to separate them? (I don't believe either is editorial, as I'm conforming to canonical text, not taking editorial liberties.) I'm thinking a commit message like "Reconcile with Routledge 1894" or similar. 

[David]

Oof, that's a tough one, and I wouldn't mind if other editors want to chime in. "Normal" procedure is to treat the stated scans as "canonical", but am I right in thinking that the 1894 4th Routledge has that status in this project? If so, my understanding would be that changes of the transcription *toward* the scan copy would *not* be "Editorial".

I'm not sure how it would figure for your work-flow, but keeping typography and spelling as distinct commits would, I think, be the counsel of perfection. If you are treating these BOTH, however, as "typo fixes" (equivalent) in the e-copy, then possibly combining these in a single commit, clearly signalled, would be acceptable

I hope that all makes sense!

David / Fife, UK

[Paul Bryan]

The Routledge edition has more modern spelling, and its punctuation is more in line with Standard Ebooks, so it makes sense (to me) to defer to its text. I think I have a strategy to (relatively easily) keep spelling in a separate commit if need be. Also wondering, given the length of the volume, will breaking commits by chapter or part make it any easier to review? (Vince?)

[Vince]

It not only makes it easier to review, it makes it easier for you to fix something if it’s discovered something has to be changed in the commit (by you or the reviewer). I almost always do transcription and other correction commits by chapter, regardless of the size of work.

If the Routledge is “the scan” for the work, then any changes to conform to it are not editorial. I’m doing something similar with Artimenes; the scan I’m using is from 70 years later than the transcription, and a lot changed in spelling and punctuation in the intervening period. As long as the spelling/punctuation changes are all conforming to the scans, they can be combined, since they’re all the same thing. They’re not technically “Transcription correction” commits, since they’re not transcription errors; I’ve labeled them something like “Conform spelling/punctuation to transcription” or something similar, depending on what is being changed.

As always, just make sure you don’t mix anything else into those commits.

[Paul Bryan]

Thanks, will do.

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[Paul Bryan]

There are passages where numbered (book chapters, bible verses) are being referenced with roman numerals (e.g. "XX") and ordinal suffixes ("th").

Examples:

• “[…] and the following chapters to the XXVIIth.”
• “In the XIth chap. of Numbers, v. 17, “I will take,” saith God, […]”
• “[…] in the beginning of the XIIIth and end of the XVIIIth of Deuteronomy; […]”
• “[…] that begin at the XIIth chapter, and continue to the end of the XXVIth of the same book […]”

The roman numerals are marked-up with `<span epub:type="z3998:roman">`. I notice that `se modernize-spelling` removes the "th" ordinal suffixes. To my eyes, this makes for awkward reading. I notice that if I add `ordinal` to the `epub:type` attribute, modernize-spelling excludes them from removal.

I'm unsure how to proceed. Options that I see:

1. Accept modernize-spelling has done well and move on.
2. Add `ordinal` to `epub:type` to retain the "th" suffixes.
3. Use arabic characters for bible verses (to align with SEMoS 8.17.4) to retain the ordinals for them; let the section number roman ordinals be dropped.
4. Move all instances to arabic characters.
5. Some combination of above.

Thoughts?

[David]

I take it your first example is non-Biblical? In that case, I would go with #3, and Editorial still in both cases.

D.

[Paul Bryan]

OK, thanks.

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[Alex Cabal]

You should not use a specific font. We cannot embed any fonts as font files in an SVG because they are not CC0 licensed. Therefore you can use text nodes and set the font to simply "serif" which will let the system pick its default serif font.

---- On Sat, 12 Oct 2024 10:51:50 -0500 'Paul Bryan' via Standard Ebooks <standar...@googlegroups.com> wrote ---

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[Paul Bryan]

When citing Bible verses, should I be expanding any abbreviations, or keep them as-is?

Examples:

(Matt. viii. 26) → (Matthew 8:26)

(Exod. xxiii . 8) → (Exodus 23:8)

[Vince]

SEMoS doesn’t say.

The SBL (Society of Biblical Literature) Handbook of Style, the equivalent of CMS for Biblical literature, says that inline references be spelled out

It says in Matthew 3:1–2 that …

while parenthetical references be abbreviated

… saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matt 3:1–2).

SBL also specifies no periods on Bible book abbreviations, but that would conflict with SEMoS rules on abbreviations, so SEMoS would take precedence. If we did allow abbreviations, we would also want to use the SBL standard list. (The two abbreviations in your examples are correct.)

I suspect Alex will not want to go to all that trouble, and just have everything spelled out. :)

[Paul Bryan]

Many of these bible citations were originally in the shoulder notes, presumably added inline by editors in subsequent editions, so I'd be fine too with spelling them out.

[Paul Bryan]

OK, I'm 12 chapters in with the reconciliation of text to Routledge, and I think it may be worth Vince and maybe Alex taking a look at the commits.

The thing I'm growing concerned about is the extent of the edits to punctuation that were made in the 1894 Routledge edition. Some colons are "demoted" to semicolons; some semicolons demoted to commas; many commas are dropped. The 1839 Bohn edition that the transaction is based on seems to have kept more true to the original 1651 Crooke punctuation. 

I personally find that Routledge's changes make my of reading its passages far easier to read. However, I'm not sure what the stance is on Standard Ebooks remaining adherence to the original text. If need be, I can revert out these punctuation changes in my commits to keep the text closer to original.

[David]

GIven the complexity of this production, those sorts of questions are beyond my ken! Vince would have a far better sense for this, but it does look like it's getting into EiC territory!

David / Fife, UK

[Alex Cabal]

You should just pick an edition and stick with it. If you picked
Routledge then just do what they did.

As I have said many times before in other conversations about other
books, with few exceptions, nobody, not even the authors themselves,
really cared very much about things like punctuation across editions up
to until the start of the 20th century.

As you can see here, almost 150 years ago it was de rigeur to
drastically change things without asking Hobbes and everyone was fine
with it. So don't worry about what Hobbes would have thought, he didn't
care when he was alive and he doesn't care now.

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[Paul Bryan]

I've encountered a numbered sequences of sentences within a paragraph. So, it's essentially an ordered list. Should I be trying to add semantics here? (It seems intentionally contained within the paragraph, so, `<ol>` seems inappropriate.)

[Paul Bryan]

Sample of the text:

[Alex Cabal]

No, there is no semantic for inline numbered lists like that.

On 10/20/24 5:45 PM, 'Paul Bryan' via Standard Ebooks wrote:
> Sample of the text:

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

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[Paul Bryan]

I have a paragraph that intentionally ends with no punctuation (confirmed in multiple editions of different publishers at different times). This is resulting in a `y-003` lint warning. I could add punctuation (a comma or colon could be appropriate) or override the linter (which I've come to learn is usually right).

 

[Alex Cabal]

I think you can put a colon there

On 10/29/24 7:31 PM, 'Paul Bryan' via Standard Ebooks wrote:
> I have a paragraph that intentionally ends with no punctuation
> (confirmed in multiple editions of different publishers at different
> times). This is resulting in a `y-003` lint warning. I could add
> punctuation (a comma or colon could be appropriate) or override the
> linter (which I've come to learn is usually right).
>

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.

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[Paul Bryan]

I found an example already in the text: em-dash. Would that work? (or would it be better to change it into a colon?)

[Alex Cabal]

Either is fine

On 10/30/24 12:45 PM, 'Paul Bryan' via Standard Ebooks wrote:
> I found an example already in the text: em-dash. Would that work? (or
> would it be better to change it into a colon?)
>

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>>.

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[Paul Bryan]

I'm now considering artwork for Leviathan.

I initially considered using John Michael Wright's portrait of Hobbes, but the National Portrait Gallery, where it resides, asserts copyright on its photographic images. This has not deterred Wikipedia, which received a legal threat from NPG in 2009, to which the EFF issued a response. I'm thinking that navigating this would probably be more trouble than it's worth.  

I did a bit more searching for suitable works, featuring masses of people, or even swarms of bees, the theme being the collection of individuals into a larger body politic. However, I haven't encountered anything that seems a good match. 

Therefore, I'm now turning to abstract art; something exhibiting complexity. Barring any changes to my understanding above, I propose using The Knife Grinder or Principle of Glittering, by Kazimir Malevich. It's in the public domain artwork database. Sample cover art:

[Alex Cabal]

I don't think that modernist abstract painting works for a book from
1650, about civics and monarchy.

If you are in the US and you're nervous about NPG, that portrait can be
readily found for download online at other websites including Wikimedia.

On 10/31/24 6:05 PM, 'Paul Bryan' via Standard Ebooks wrote:
> I'm now considering artwork for Leviathan.
>
> I initially considered using John Michael Wright's portrait of Hobbes

> <https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw03164>, but the

> National Portrait Gallery, where it resides, asserts copyright on its
> photographic images. This has not deterred Wikipedia, which received a
> legal threat

> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Dcoetzee/NPG_legal_threat> from

> NPG in 2009, to which the EFF issued a response

> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Dcoetzee/NPG_legal_threat>. I'm

> thinking that navigating this would probably be more trouble than it's
> worth.
>
> I did a bit more searching for suitable works, featuring masses of
> people, or even swarms of bees, the theme being the collection of
> individuals into a larger body politic. However, I haven't encountered
> anything that seems a good match.
>
> Therefore, I'm now turning to abstract art; something exhibiting
> complexity. Barring any changes to my understanding above, I propose

> using /The Knife Grinder or Principle of Glittering
> <https://standardebooks.org/artworks/kazimir-malevich/the-knife-grinder-or-principle-of-glittering>/, by Kazimir Malevich. It's in the public domain artwork database. Sample cover art:

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cc7c4f0d-ed1d-4c1e-a06c-37ac3f5adc0cn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>>>.

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[Paul Bryan]

Alright, I propose using the Wright's portrait of Hobbes.

Title: Thomas Hobbes
Artist: John Michael Wright (1617–1694)
Year completed: c. 1669–1670
Dimensions: 2400 × 2928 pixels

Image source:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Thomas_Hobbes_by_John_Michael_Wright.jpg

Public domain proof:

The National Portrait Gallery, edited by Lionel Cust, Volume 1

Published by Cassel and Company, London, 1901–02

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.fl16xk&seq=159&q1=hobbes

Sample cover art (edited to increase brightness and contrast):

[Robin Whittleton]

This is potentially less of an issue after last year anyway: https://creativecommons.org/2024/01/18/uk-court-clears-path-for-open-culture-to-flourish/

On 1 Nov 2024, at 04:53, 'Paul Bryan' via Standard Ebooks <standar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Alright, I propose using the Wright's portrait of Hobbes.

Title: Thomas Hobbes
Artist: John Michael Wright (1617–1694)
Year completed: c. 1669–1670
Dimensions: 2400 × 2928 pixels

Image source:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Thomas_Hobbes_by_John_Michael_Wright.jpg

Public domain proof:

The National Portrait Gallery, edited by Lionel Cust, Volume 1

Published by Cassel and Company, London, 1901–02

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.fl16xk&seq=159&q1=hobbes

Sample cover art (edited to increase brightness and contrast):

<cover.jpg>

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<cover.jpg>

[David]

Okay, looks good, and I've added it to the Artworks db.

You might play a little bit with crop before you finalize: there's a lot of black there, and possibly a (slightly) closer crop would work better. Your call, though!

D.

[Paul Bryan]

OK, thanks. Here's a version that's color-corrected to better match the NPG's representation. Better?

[David]

I would consider the color-corrected version an improvement! Same crop, of course, but that's okay.

D.

[Paul Bryan]

Here's the same with a tighter crop.

[David]

Nice! Well, *I* like it better :)  If *you* like it better, then of course I'd suggest going with that.

D.

On Friday 1 November 2024 at 17:17:43 UTC Paul Bryan wrote:

Here's the same with a tighter crop.

. . .

[Paul Bryan]

"Sold!"

[Paul Bryan]

I have an early draft of the diagram.

Good news and bad news.Good news: the plain SVG file is ~92 KB. Bad news: it will not be rendered faithfully, causing text to collide with the braces and even other text:

I can convert to paths. It renders perfectly, but at the cost of increasing the file size to ~1.45 MB:

Any advice?

[David]

Well, first of all, congratulations on translating that chart into pixels! That's an achievement in itself.

But as for the advice, we'll need to call in the ninjas. I'm SVG-challenged, myself and have no good advice to offer. Not even bad advice.

D.

[Paul Bryan]

Thanks. Also, since the SVG-with-paths file is very redundant, it compresses quite well. With deflate (zip) compression, it drops to about 170 KB (about 17% of the total .epub file size). Compared to cover.jpg, which takes 781 KB compressed (82% of epub file size) it doesn't seem so bad. 

[Paul Bryan]

I  meant cover.svg, not cover.jpg.

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[Paul Bryan]

And if I were to use paths, would I be at liberty to use OFL Sorts Mill Goudy? (281 KB compressed) Sample:

[Paul Bryan]

Here is a final draft of the diagram, subject to outstanding questions about paths and fonts. Feedback would be appreciated! (SVG w. paths attached, for anyone interested)

[Vince]

If by paths you mean converting the text to paths, that is definitely what we want; we don’t want embedded font information.

I would think it’s OK to use Sorts Mill Goudy, since we use it for the same purpose, but that will have to be answered by Alex.

Within reason, the size of an illustration is not a concern.

On Nov 3, 2024, at 1:47 PM, 'Paul Bryan' via Standard Ebooks <standar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Here is a final draft of the diagram, subject to outstanding questions about paths and fonts. Feedback would be appreciated! (SVG w. paths attached, for anyone interested)

[Alex Cabal]

OK, converting to paths is acceptable. Do not embed the font itself.

On 11/3/24 1:47 PM, 'Paul Bryan' via Standard Ebooks wrote:
> Here is a final draft of the diagram, subject to outstanding questions
> about paths and fonts. Feedback would be appreciated! (SVG w. paths
> attached, for anyone interested)
>

> diagram-final-draft.png
>
>
> On Sunday, November 3, 2024 at 8:12:46 AM UTC-8 Paul Bryan wrote:
>
> And if I were to use paths, would I be at liberty to use OFL Sorts
> Mill Goudy? (281 KB compressed) Sample:
>

> Screenshot From 2024-11-03 08-12-28.png
>
> On Sunday, November 3, 2024 at 8:04:11 AM UTC-8 Paul Bryan wrote:
>

> __

> I  meant cover.svg, not cover.jpg.
>
> On Sun, Nov 3, 2024, at 08:00, 'Paul Bryan' via Standard Ebooks
> wrote:
>> Thanks. Also, since the SVG-with-paths file is very redundant,
>> it compresses quite well. With deflate (zip) compression, it
>> drops to about 170 KB (about 17% of the total .epub file
>> size). Compared to cover.jpg, which takes 781 KB compressed
>> (82% of epub file size) it doesn't seem so bad.
>>
>> On Sunday, November 3, 2024 at 1:02:28 AM UTC-8 David wrote:
>>
>> Well, first of all, congratulations on translating that
>> chart into pixels! That's an achievement in itself.
>>
>> But as for the advice, we'll need to call in the ninjas.
>> I'm SVG-challenged, myself and have no good advice to
>> offer. Not even bad advice.
>>
>> D.
>>
>> On Sunday 3 November 2024 at 08:24:18 UTC Paul Bryan wrote:
>>
>> I have an early draft of the diagram.
>>
>> Good news and bad news.Good news: the plain SVG file
>> is ~92 KB. Bad news: it will not be rendered
>> faithfully, causing text to collide with the braces
>> and even other text:

>> Screenshot From 2024-11-03 01-19-57.png
>>
>> I can convert to paths. It renders perfectly, but at
>> the cost of increasing the file size to ~1.45 MB:

>> Screenshot From 2024-11-03 01-22-49.png
>>
>> Any advice?
>>
>>
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[Paul Bryan]

This is ready for review.

[Vince]

All right, we have out-of-company right now, so it will be a few days.

[Vince]

Nice work on a complex project, especially all of the changes to conform to the later scans! I opened an issue in GitHub with a few items on it.

[Vince]

All right, Alex, I believe this is ready for you.

There was a couple of roman lists, one inline, on regular; I had him leave them roman as we have others like them in the corpus. (In particular numerous ones in Gibbon.)

The original scans he was using were at google.ca; I couldn’t get to them, so he found the same edition on IA and updated the URLs. (I looked and we don’t have any non-US URLs for Google Books; do we care, or should that be a listed restriction?)

[Alex Cabal]

This ebook was produced by Paul Bryan. Thanks Paul!

Ebook URL: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/thomas-hobbes/leviathan

GitHub URL: https://github.com/standardebooks/thomas-hobbes_leviathan

[Alex Cabal]

OK, I've gone ahead and released it, thanks!

Yes, we should prefer Google Books US or IA over non-US scan sources.

On 11/10/24 1:50 PM, Vince wrote:
> All right, Alex, I believe this

> <https://github.com/pbryan/thomas-hobbes_leviathan> is ready for you.

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[Paul Bryan]

Going through my files, I have the original Inkscape source for the figure with text nodes. Would it be good for me to submit a PR to include it in the repository? (I originally put it in ./images as a source file for posterity, but `se lint` was none too fond of it, so I replaced it with the stripped-down version with paths.)

[Alex Cabal]

Sure

On 12/9/24 4:55 PM, 'Paul Bryan' via Standard Ebooks wrote:
> Going through my files, I have the original Inkscape source for the
> figure with text nodes. Would it be good for me to submit a PR to
> include it in the repository? (I originally put it in ./images as a
> source file for posterity, but `se lint` was none too fond of it, so I
> replaced it with the stripped-down version with paths.)
> On Tuesday, November 12, 2024 at 1:38:04 PM UTC-8 Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> OK, I've gone ahead and released it, thanks!
>
> Yes, we should prefer Google Books US or IA over non-US scan sources.
>
> On 11/10/24 1:50 PM, Vince wrote:
> > All right, Alex, I believe this
> > <https://github.com/pbryan/thomas-hobbes_leviathan
> <https://github.com/pbryan/thomas-hobbes_leviathan>> is ready for you.
> >
> > There was a couple of roman lists, one inline, on regular; I had him
> > leave them roman as we have others like them in the corpus. (In
> > particular numerous ones in Gibbon.)
> > The original scans he was using were at google.ca

> <http://google.ca>; I couldn’t get to

> > them, so he found the same edition on IA and updated the URLs. (I
> looked
> > and we don’t have any non-US URLs for Google Books; do we care, or
> > should that be a listed restriction?)
> >
> >
> >> On Nov 8, 2024, at 2:32 PM, Vince <vr_se...@letterboxes.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Nice work on a complex project, especially all of the changes to
> >> conform to the later scans! I opened an issue in GitHub with a few
> >> items on it.
> >>
> >>> On Nov 4, 2024, at 5:20 PM, Vince <vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> All right, we have out-of-company right now, so it will be a
> few days.
> >>>
> >>>> On Nov 4, 2024, at 4:05 PM, 'Paul Bryan' via Standard Ebooks
> >>>> <standar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> This is ready for review.
> >
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> > To view this discussion visit
> >

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