My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector pins, how important to upgrade these?

[eric.mack]

My first objective is to get my existing Z80 H8 running as it was years ago. Then, I will look to build out the set of upgraded boards.

 

This may be a rabbit trail, but as I work my way through the troubleshooting tips offered yesterday to help me get my H8 to boot from my H37 controller and 3.5” floppy, I noticed that my motherboard uses the older tin connectors.

 

I would like to eventually purchase a new motherboard (or chassis, if these can be found) but for now, I wonder if the buss could be the cause of my boot issues?

 

Should I use Deoxit to clean the contacts? Any other advice/tips to get me running?

 

 

[Glenn Roberts]

I believe the main symptom that you’d see with the tinned connectors would be intermittent bad behavior.  Reseating the board would presumably make the problem go away, for a while (until oxide built up). 

 

I defer to others but to me this *does* seem like the kind of situation where deoxit is appropriate to use, as its intent is to remove oxidation film off contacts.

 

I think in a previous post Norberto made the interesting comment that it was easy to replace the pins.  I think that all depends on whether you have the right de-soldering tools and expertise – for me it always seemed like a formidable task.

 

10 years ago Les Bird developed a KiCad design for a modern equivalent (pix here, kicads here).  I actually have one of these (in “Rusty”) and it has been 100% solid.  Les added a few nice features including the ability to use a modern ATX switching power supply plus six extra positions to accommodate short or low clearance cards (handy for some of the newer boards that Norberto has designed).  Les also cites the spec’s (0.318”) for the pins (available from Phoenix Enterprises here).

 

It would be a worthy idea to put this on your “to do” list (either replacing the pins or the whole backplane) but I think you can eliminate this from consideration as the source of your H37 problem by simply reseating the board or moving it to a different slot (and possibly using deoxit or some other cleaner).

 

It has been quite a while since there was any organized order of Les’ old boards – there might be considerable interest from people on this list in organizing a group purchase as this is a worthwhile investment for improving any old H8 system…

 

• Glenn

 

 

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[eric.mack]

At lunch I'll pull and reseat the boards. Someday, I would probably replace the motehrboard rather than try to desolder and install new pins.

As I said, I knew this could be a rabbit trail, but always fun to learn.

Thanks, Glenn,

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[Norberto Collado]

The H8 backplane that you have can be fixed easily with gold plated connectors. It is about two hrs job.

Norberto

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [sebhc] My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector pins,
how important to upgrade these?
From: "eric.mack" <Eric...@FasterAtWork.com>
Date: Thu, September 26, 2019 11:05 am
To: SEBHC <se...@googlegroups.com>

My first objective is to get my existing Z80 H8 running as it was years ago. Then, I will look to build out the set of upgraded boards.

 

This may be a rabbit trail, but as I work my way through the troubleshooting tips offered yesterday to help me get my H8 to boot from my H37 controller and 3.5” floppy, I noticed that my motherboard uses the older tin connectors.

 

I would like to eventually purchase a new motherboard (or chassis, if these can be found) but for now, I wonder if the buss could be the cause of my boot issues?

 

Should I use Deoxit to clean the contacts? Any other advice/tips to get me running?

 

 

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[Norberto Collado]

Try re-seating the H37/H67 board. Replace floppy cable. If that does not works, send me the H37/H67 board to check it out.

I highly encourage to fix the H8 backplane as it is an easy job to do. ~2hr job.

Norberto

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [sebhc] My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector
pins, how important to upgrade these?
From: "eric.mack" <Eric...@FasterAtWork.com>

Date: Thu, September 26, 2019 12:53 pm
To: SEBHC <se...@googlegroups.com>

At lunch I'll pull and reseat the boards. Someday, I would probably replace the motehrboard rather than try to desolder and install new pins.

As I said, I knew this could be a rabbit trail, but always fun to learn.

Thanks, Glenn,
On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 12:43:00 PM UTC-7, Glenn wrote:

I believe the main symptom that you’d see with the tinned connectors would be intermittent bad behavior.  Reseating the board would presumably make the problem go away, for a while (until oxide built up). 

 

I defer to others but to me this *does* seem like the kind of situation where deoxit is appropriate to use, as its intent is to remove oxidation film off contacts.

 

I think in a previous post Norberto made the interesting comment that it was easy to replace the pins.  I think that all depends on whether you have the right de-soldering tools and expertise – for me it always seemed like a formidable task.

 

10 years ago Les Bird developed a KiCad design for a modern equivalent (pix here, kicads here).  I actually have one of these (in “Rusty”) and it has been 100% solid.  Les added a few nice features including the ability to use a modern ATX switching power supply plus six extra positions to accommodate short or low clearance cards (handy for some of the newer boards that Norberto has designed).  Les also cites the spec’s (0.318”) for the pins (available from Phoenix Enterprises here).

 

It would be a worthy idea to put this on your “to do” list (either replacing the pins or the whole backplane) but I think you can eliminate this from consideration as the source of your H37 problem by simply reseating the board or moving it to a different slot (and possibly using deoxit or some other cleaner).

 

It has been quite a while since there was any organized order of Les’ old boards – there might be considerable interest from people on this list in organizing a group purchase as this is a worthwhile investment for improving any old H8 system…

 

• Glenn

 

 

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of eric.mack
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 2:05 PM
To: SEBHC <se...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [sebhc] My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector pins, how important to upgrade these?

My first objective is to get my existing Z80 H8 running as it was years ago. Then, I will look to build out the set of upgraded boards.

 

This may be a rabbit trail, but as I work my way through the troubleshooting tips offered yesterday to help me get my H8 to boot from my H37 controller and 3.5” floppy, I noticed that my motherboard uses the older tin connectors.

 

I would like to eventually purchase a new motherboard (or chassis, if these can be found) but for now, I wonder if the buss could be the cause of my boot issues?

 

Should I use Deoxit to clean the contacts? Any other advice/tips to get me running?

 

 

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[Glenn Roberts]

Norberto: what’s the trick to doing this?  How do you de-solder those 25-pin connectors?  I’ve got one old backplane somewhere that I’d like to upgrade but I don’t have the de-soldering tools or skills I guess?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/20190926143034.1321cca37f09b4ab87c5049afdc8ceaa.b8dcda75c4.wbe%40email09.godaddy.com.

[Lee Hart]

Norberto Collado wrote:
> The H8 backplane that you have can be fixed easily with gold plated
> connectors. It is about two hrs job.

That sounds about right. I did one of my H8's in about that length of
time. I clamped the board on edge in a little tabletop vice. I heated
each pin from the bottom until the solder melted, then pulled it out the
top with a pair of needle-nosed pliers. Once the last pin is out, the
plastic body comes off with it.

Slide the soldering iron sideways along the pads, and gravity will carry
all the solder with it to the bottom, where it falls off with the iron.
That leaves all the holes clear for the new pins.

New headers are easy to buy. Digikey, Mouser, etc. all carry them. Be
sure to get ones that specify the amount of gold. Cheap ones will either
be tin-plated, or just barely have a flash of gold for appearance, but
too thin to actualy provide any protection.

Note that the sockets on the board are also likely to be tin-plated.
These can be hard to get. I chose to buy a large bag of 10-pin Molex KK
connectors, and stacked them end-to-end to fill the space. It will take
another half hour or so per board to replace them.

Lee Hart
--
There is a computer disease that anybody who works with computers knows
about. It's very serious, and interferes completely with your work. The
trouble with computers is that you 'play' with them! (Richard Feynman)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

[Norberto Collado]

I can help with that if you send me the backplane and the gold pins headers (with correct pin length) that Les outlined in his website.

Norberto

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [sebhc] My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector
pins, how important to upgrade these?
From: "Glenn Roberts" <glenn.f...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, September 26, 2019 2:39 pm
To: <se...@googlegroups.com>

Norberto: what’s the trick to doing this?  How do you de-solder those 25-pin connectors?  I’ve got one old backplane somewhere that I’d like to upgrade but I don’t have the de-soldering tools or skills I guess?

 

 

 

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Norberto Collado
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 5:31 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [sebhc] My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector pins, how important to upgrade these?

 

The H8 backplane that you have can be fixed easily with gold plated connectors. It is about two hrs job.

 

Norberto

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [sebhc] My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector pins,
how important to upgrade these?
From: "eric.mack" <Eric...@FasterAtWork.com>
Date: Thu, September 26, 2019 11:05 am
To: SEBHC <se...@googlegroups.com>

My first objective is to get my existing Z80 H8 running as it was years ago. Then, I will look to build out the set of upgraded boards.

 

This may be a rabbit trail, but as I work my way through the troubleshooting tips offered yesterday to help me get my H8 to boot from my H37 controller and 3.5” floppy, I noticed that my motherboard uses the older tin connectors.

 

I would like to eventually purchase a new motherboard (or chassis, if these can be found) but for now, I wonder if the buss could be the cause of my boot issues?

 

Should I use Deoxit to clean the contacts? Any other advice/tips to get me running?

 

 

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[eric.mack]

Do you have a preferred supplier (part#) for the pins and for the large bag of 10-pin Molex KK? If so, i can order some... Otherwise, I'll use Google  :-)

[Norberto Collado]

Great feedback!

I do have a minor change to your procedure and that is to pre-heat the plastic body with the heat gun and take out the plastic with the pliers. Then as you melt the solder on each pin, it just fall off easily (gravity takes care of that) along with the solder. 

Then insert the new gold header and follow Heath procedure to keep alignment in check.

Norberto

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [sebhc] My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector
pins, how important to upgrade these?

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[eric.mack]

Good conversation and these are helpful steps and tips.

 

I can’t help but wonder if there is any advantage to just having another PCBOARD made from Les’ plans and populating that from scratch?  (Assuming it’s possible to order just one inexpensively?)

 

Or, am I understanding Norberto to suggest that Les’ new motherboard has no benefit over an original H8 motherboard once upgraded with gold pins (apart from the power supply options?)

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[Norberto Collado]

https://www.peconnectors.com/pin-headers-straight-1x-row-.100/hws3002/

$0.55 each. Minimum order: $20.00.

So you want to order from same company other components to build out your new boards.

Thanks,

Norberto

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [sebhc] My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector
pins, how important to upgrade these?

From: "eric.mack" <Eric...@FasterAtWork.com>
Date: Thu, September 26, 2019 4:31 pm
To: SEBHC <se...@googlegroups.com>

Do you have a preferred supplier (part#) for the pins and for the large bag of 10-pin Molex KK? If so, i can order some... Otherwise, I'll use Google  :-)

On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 4:00:37 PM UTC-7, Lee wrote:

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[Norberto Collado]

The only benefit to Les' H8 motherboard is if you decided to use a PC power supply or if you decide to developed half cards that can plug between boards. I have two H8 and one is using the Tryonix motherboard and the other is using the Heath board with the updated gold pins.

Les H8 motherboard are good for those H8's chassis that are missing the power supply or the motherboard.

Norberto

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [sebhc] My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector
pins, how important to upgrade these?
From: "eric.mack" <Eric...@FasterAtWork.com>

Date: Thu, September 26, 2019 4:55 pm
To: SEBHC <se...@googlegroups.com>

Good conversation and these are helpful steps and tips.

 

I can’t help but wonder if there is any advantage to just having another PCBOARD made from Les’ plans and populating that from scratch?  (Assuming it’s possible to order just one inexpensively?)

 

Or, am I understanding Norberto to suggest that Les’ new motherboard has no benefit over an original H8 motherboard once upgraded with gold pins (apart from the power supply options?)

 

On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 4:43:54 PM UTC-7, Norby wrote:

Great feedback!

I do have a minor change to your procedure and that is to pre-heat the plastic body with the heat gun and take out the plastic with the pliers. Then as you melt the solder on each pin, it just fall off easily (gravity takes care of that) along with the solder. 

Then insert the new gold header and follow Heath procedure to keep alignment in check.

Norberto

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[eric.mack]

Got it. I guess the other benefit is for folks who want to build a complete H82K from scratch.
Thanks for that helpful explanation.

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[Glenn Roberts]

One nice benefit of the ATX power supply is how cool the box stays. Since the cards no longer have on-board regulators and the switching PS is efficient and nearly silent it’s a nice setup. I can also stack things on the H8 without worrying about blocking convection flow

On the down side I’ve had to either remove and short out the regulators on the boards, or go to pololu buck devices (which let me use the boards in either ATX or traditional linear PS environments)

I’ve installed my new Z80 Rev 3 board in a traditional H8 chassis and linear power supply and all is working fine!

Sent from my iPad

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[Norberto Collado]

What I will like to do in the near future is to build out a Mini-H8 4-slot H8 backplane for new designs as Les provides a solution to build out a complete H8 system (H82K) from scratch. I expect the Z80 CPU will go thru another spin soon to support on-board 512KB as 64KB is not enought for future expansion (see attached picture). 

Slot 1 - CPU - No front panel - with 512KB of RAM - DUART/USB

Slot 2 - Network

Slot 3 - Storage (H17/H37/H67) or IDE

Slot 4 - H19 TERM

Norberto

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [sebhc] My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector
pins, how important to upgrade these?
From: "eric.mack" <Eric...@FasterAtWork.com>
Date: Thu, September 26, 2019 5:37 pm
To: SEBHC <se...@googlegroups.com>

Got it. I guess the other benefit is for folks who want to build a complete H82K from scratch.
Thanks for that helpful explanation.
On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 5:34:24 PM UTC-7, Norby wrote:

The only benefit to Les' H8 motherboard is if you decided to use a PC power supply or if you decide to developed half cards that can plug between boards. I have two H8 and one is using the Tryonix motherboard and the other is using the Heath board with the updated gold pins.

Les H8 motherboards are good for those H8's chassis that are missing the power supply or the motherboard.

[Lee Hart]

eric.mack wrote:
> Do you have a preferred supplier (part#) for the pins and for the large
> bag of 10-pin Molex KK?

The stock Heath part was a Molex 22-15-2102 (tin plated contact, brass
terminal material). I used the Molex 22-16-2101 (gold plated contact,
phosphor bronze terminal material). You could also use the 22-16-2100,
which has less gold but is cheaper.

"22" is the basic family. "15-2 or 16-2" is the right-angle version. The
next two digit ("10" in my case) denotes the number of pins. They are
theoretically available from 02-25 pins, but only a few sizes are
actually stocked (and 25-pins isn't one of them). The last digit is the
amount of gold on the contact. "0" is 0.38um, "1" is 0.50um.

All the major electronics suppliers carry them (Digikey, Mouser, etc.) I
use these connectors in my electronic kits
<www.sunrise-ev.com/projects.htm>. The price comes down drastically with
quantity, so I just standardized on the 10-pin size and bought a large
quantity, and cut them to make other sizes.

I also buy the straight version 22-18-2101, which is identical but
cheaper for some reason. I just have to bend the pins myself to make it
the right-angle version. If you can use this version, I can sell you
some at my cost (about $1 each).

> If so, i can order some... Otherwise, I'll use Google

Try octopart.com. They will show you all the 1st-line and 2nd-line
distributors that have the parts in stock, and their prices. :-)

> <http://www.sunrise-ev.com>

>
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[Lee Hart]

Norberto Collado wrote:
> https://www.peconnectors.com/pin-headers-straight-1x-row-.100/hws3002/
> $0.55 each. Minimum order: $20.00.

That's a good price for the pins. Note that they are gold flashed; not
gold plated. Gold flash is cosmetic; enough to make it look like gold,
but porous so the base metal still corrodes over time.

It's so much work to replace the connectors that I tend to get ones with
more gold. They cost more, but I'll never have to fix it again. :-)

One example is Amphenol (Bergstik) 77311-822-25LF. This one has 7.75mm
0.305" pins with 0.38um gold plating. The "25" is the number of pins;
this number can be almost anything, depending on what the supplier has
in stock. For example, Mouser lists the 25-pin version for $1.85 each.

[Norberto Collado]

Thanks Lee for the feedback on how this works. Good to know!

Norberto

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[eric.mack]

That is quite interesting. If the CPU (Slot 1) has a DUART (Which I assume will act as a serial port for the terminal), then what is the H19 Term board you speak of -- unless you are thinking of putting all terminal logic in the box and using a generic video display and PC Keyboard?

Also, you mention no front panel on next rev of CPU board. Is the front panel required at all, given that it is possible to set the CPU to auto-boot?

I do not have need for these at present and for me I want to keep my system close to original (I think) but I do like to learn, thus the question.

Eric

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[Glenn Roberts]

Note to self: never buy more than one of any of Norberto’s boards because by the time  you get around to building out the second one Norberto will have come up with something even better!

 

I think it would be really cool to have a “short chassis” H8 and would be interested in helping with prototyping such a design.

 

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Norberto Collado
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 9:06 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/20190926180613.1321cca37f09b4ab87c5049afdc8ceaa.c68ad2954f.wbe%40email09.godaddy.com.

[John Evans]

No kidding.  I've got an entire set of the H8 2K boards with parts I've collected in a box, in my crawlspace, waiting for a good time to begin work.

john - colorado springs

[Glenn Roberts]

Yes Norberto has long been thinking about how to put the H19 terminal function on a board and, as you say, just attach keyboard and LCD screen.  I’ve lost a few of the CRTs over the years so my working population of H19s is dwindling!  The trend will continue and probably accelerate…  Another approach, of course, is to use a PC and H19 emulator – we’ve got some pretty good ones now.

 

While no front panel is necessary given the new Z80 board design and H89 style ROM interface its certainly an important design feature of the H8.  I would be reluctant to remove the front panel from my systems, however I could envision an LED-less front panel H8 system that would look something like the H11 did:

 

http://www.vintage-computer.com/images/heath11.jpg

 

 

 

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[Glenn Roberts]

It would still be a fun build – almost like “the old days”.  It is getting hard to find some of the older chips though…

 

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of John Evans
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 8:12 AM
To: se...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [sebhc] My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector pins, how important to upgrade these?

 

No kidding.  I've got an entire set of the H8 2K boards with parts I've collected in a box, in my crawlspace, waiting for a good time to begin work.

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[Lee Hart]

eric.mack wrote:
> That is quite interesting. If the CPU (Slot 1) has a DUART (Which I
> assume will act as a serial port for the terminal), then what is the H19
> Term board you speak of -- unless you are thinking of putting all
> terminal logic in the box and using a generic video display and PC Keyboard?
>
> Also, you mention no front panel on next rev of CPU board. Is the front
> panel required at all, given that it is possible to set the CPU to
> auto-boot?
>
> I do not have need for these at present and for me I want to keep my
> system close to original (I think) but I do like to learn, thus the
> question.

The H8 does not have any internal keyboard input or video output.
Instead, it has serial (and sometimes parallel) ports to connect to an
external "terminal". Originally, it connected to a Heath H9 terminal.
Then an H19, or H29, or just about any generic RS-232 terminal. Today,
it's more likely to be connected to a PC with a serial port, running a
"terminal" program like Hyperterm, Teraterm, Realterm, etc.

For years, we have talked about doing a "terminal" board for the H8. It
would have the same capabilities as the Heath H19, but on an internal
board. Probably give it a VGA output, and PC PS2 keyboard input connectors.

It's on my "to do" list, and I've puttered with it on and off. One
de-motivator is that doing it the "old way" (like the H19) takes a lot
of chips, and doing it the "new way" (with some modern CPU) has already
been done a dozen times, so you can already buy such a board and hide it
in some corner inside the H8.

[Norberto Collado]

Note to self: never buy more than one of any of Norberto’s boards because by the time  you get around to building out the second one Norberto will have come up with something even better!

Sorry about that. I'm reaching the maturity level, so I only expect the following changes and no more after that.

1. Storage Controller (H37/H67/H17) on same board. 

2. H8-IDE

3. H8-H19

4. Z80 512KB on-board update (low prioity).

5. Mini-H8 (Using above boards)

On the H89-SBC:

1. Add 512 MMU

2. Add network.

3. Add H19 on board if possible.

Thanks,

Norberto

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [sebhc] My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector
pins, how important to upgrade these?

From: "Glenn Roberts" <glenn.f...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, September 27, 2019 5:09 am
To: <se...@googlegroups.com>

Note to self: never buy more than one of any of Norberto’s boards because by the time  you get around to building out the second one Norberto will have come up with something even better!

 

I think it would be really cool to have a “short chassis” H8 and would be interested in helping with prototyping such a design.

 

From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Norberto Collado
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 9:06 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: [sebhc] My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector pins, how important to upgrade these?

 

What I will like to do in the near future is to build out a Mini-H8 4-slot H8 backplane for new designs as Les provides a solution to build out a complete H8 system (H82K) from scratch. I expect the Z80 CPU will go thru another spin soon to support on-board 512KB as 64KB is not enought for future expansion (see attached picture). 

 

Slot 1 - CPU - No front panel - with 512KB of RAM - DUART/USB

Slot 2 - Network

Slot 3 - Storage (H17/H37/H67) or IDE

Slot 4 - H19 TERM

 

Norberto

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [sebhc] My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector
pins, how important to upgrade these?

From: "eric.mack" <Eric...@FasterAtWork.com>
Date: Thu, September 26, 2019 5:37 pm
To: SEBHC <se...@googlegroups.com>

Got it. I guess the other benefit is for folks who want to build a complete H82K from scratch.
Thanks for that helpful explanation.
On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 5:34:24 PM UTC-7, Norby wrote:

The only benefit to Les' H8 motherboard is if you decided to use a PC power supply or if you decide to developed half cards that can plug between boards. I have two H8 and one is using the Tryonix motherboard and the other is using the Heath board with the updated gold pins.

 

Les H8 motherboards are good for those H8's chassis that are missing the power supply or the motherboard.

 

Norberto

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [sebhc] My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector
pins, how important to upgrade these?

From: "eric.mack" <Eric...@FasterAtWork.com>
Date: Thu, September 26, 2019 4:55 pm
To: SEBHC <se...@googlegroups.com>

Good conversation and these are helpful steps and tips.

 

I can’t help but wonder if there is any advantage to just having another PCBOARD made from Les’ plans and populating that from scratch?  (Assuming it’s possible to order just one inexpensively?)

 

Or, am I understanding Norberto to suggest that Les’ new motherboard has no benefit over an original H8 motherboard once upgraded with gold pins (apart from the power supply options?)

 

On Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 4:43:54 PM UTC-7, Norby wrote:

Great feedback!

 

I do have a minor change to your procedure and that is to pre-heat the plastic body with the heat gun and take out the plastic with the pliers. Then as you melt the solder on each pin, it just fall off easily (gravity takes care of that) along with the solder. 

 

Then insert the new gold header and follow Heath procedure to keep alignment in check.

 

Norberto

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [sebhc] My H8 motherboard appears to have tin connector
pins, how important to upgrade these?

--
There is a computer disease that anybody who works with computers knows
about. It's very serious, and interferes completely with your work. The
trouble with computers is that you 'play' with them! (Richard Feynman)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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[Glenn Roberts]

No apologies. your innovative spirit, enthusiasm and follow-through are amazing.  Who’d know this is just a “hobby” for you!?  always fun to see what the coming attractions are!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sebhc/20190927095753.1321cca37f09b4ab87c5049afdc8ceaa.381f25b0a4.wbe%40email09.godaddy.com.