Interferometer relocation and baseline increase

[Anthony]

I'm almost completed, relocating the two, 3-meter dishes and I've managed to increase the baseline from 4.72 meters to 12.5 meters. I tried to squeeze as much distance as possible and stay out from under the white oak trees. 

I'm hoping the small increase in baseline and the correction of the West - East line (based on true North) will produce fringes and better angular resolution. I'm aware this is amateur radio astronomy equipment but doesn't hurt to put our best effort forth. 🙂

As you can see from the images, my original landing pads were way off! I definitely know more than I did almost three years ago, thanks to SARA! 

I'm hoping to finish up with the western dish landing pad (clean up) and pour high strength cement tomorrow, early morning! 

The price of a cement contractor to dig and pour cement, it was cheaper for me to just purchase a Yardmax, gas powered wheelbarrow and do the work myself. I can't tell you how much a gas powered wheelbarrow saved my back!  😊 

I've also decided to use the YardMax to lay down rocks, after putting down the weed fabric to remove as much grass as possible around the entire site. 

So far, I've put down 1500 kilograms of pebble rocks and have probably 8 - 10 more, 1000 kilogram bags of pebble rocks to go. 

Well, I'm off to pick up 8 bags of cement and 10 more bags tomorrow to complete the work.

Feedback is always welcome from SARA members! 

Thanks again for all the support! 

[Hamish Barker]

12m is a great spacing as the fringe transit will be about 4mins or more, allowing good temporal resolution even with a bit of averaging. My system is 10.7m. With you 3m dishes you should do well. 

Which receiver are you using? 

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[Anthony]

Hi Harnish! 

That is great to hear! 

I'm using the USRP B210. To be honest I have to used my KrakenSDR yet. 

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[Marcus D. Leech]

The thing about radio astronomy by amateurs is that most of what we actually *do* doesn't involve astronomy or electronics or
  math, but, rather, civil engineering (at least, up-front) :) :)

The professionals benefit by having had all of that taken of for them :)

[Anthony]

Well said, Marcus, so true! 😊 

On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 8:06 PM Marcus D. Leech <patchv...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 25/08/2023 18:59, Anthony wrote:

I'm almost completed, relocating the two, 3-meter dishes and I've managed to increase the baseline from 4.72 meters to 12.5 meters. I tried to squeeze as much distance as possible and stay out from under the white oak trees. 

I'm hoping the small increase in baseline and the correction of the West - East line (based on true North) will produce fringes and better angular resolution. I'm aware this is amateur radio astronomy equipment but doesn't hurt to put our best effort forth. 🙂

As you can see from the images, my original landing pads were way off! I definitely know more than I did almost three years ago, thanks to SARA! 

I'm hoping to finish up with the western dish landing pad (clean up) and pour high strength cement tomorrow, early morning! 

The price of a cement contractor to dig and pour cement, it was cheaper for me to just purchase a Yardmax, gas powered wheelbarrow and do the work myself. I can't tell you how much a gas powered wheelbarrow saved my back!  😊 

I've also decided to use the YardMax to lay down rocks, after putting down the weed fabric to remove as much grass as possible around the entire site. 

So far, I've put down 1500 kilograms of pebble rocks and have probably 8 - 10 more, 1000 kilogram bags of pebble rocks to go. 

Well, I'm off to pick up 8 bags of cement and 10 more bags tomorrow to complete the work.

Feedback is always welcome from SARA members! 

Thanks again for all the support! 

The thing about radio astronomy by amateurs is that most of what we actually *do* doesn't involve astronomy or electronics or
  math, but, rather, civil engineering (at least, up-front) :) :)

The professionals benefit by having had all of that taken of for them :)

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[Anthony]

Hamish, didn't have glasses on while driving, oops no emailing and driving!  🙁

Misspelled your name! 

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[duncan campbell-wilson]

I am not sure the professionals benefit as this tends to separate the observer from the instrument.

The really good early astronomers understood that radio astronomy was about mesh, steel and concrete.

B. Y. Mills (FRS) and A. Little of the Mills Cross NSW Australia  were very much hands on and benefitted from understanding the details of  Mills Cross radio telescope.

Rgds Duncan

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[Marcus D. Leech]

On 25/08/2023 18:59, Anthony wrote:

Did you survey that east-west line yourself?  Well done!

Like I've pointed out, having it precisely east-west isn't strictly
necessary, it just makes interpreting the data easier.
  But if you were able to get it really close?  Bravo sir, bravo....

With a roughly 4-minute (on the equator) fringe rate, you'll have plenty
of headroom for integration to pull out some
  sensitivity.   Once it's working, you should be easily able to get
fringes from all the "usual suspects" (Cass. A, Cygnus A,
  Tau A, Virgo A, etc, etc).   You might even be able to get a bright
quasar or two, which would be  a nice cap-feather.

[Marcus D. Leech]

On 25/08/2023 20:21, duncan campbell-wilson wrote:

I am not sure the professionals benefit as this tends to separate the observer from the instrument.

The really good early astronomers understood that radio astronomy was about mesh, steel and concrete.

I emphatically agree here.  I've been friends with Ken Tapping for a couple of decades now, and he's very much
  of the "pour some concrete" line of radio astronomers--not quite old enough to be of the Mills Cross camp, but
  close...

The main reason that I started CCERA was to give astrophysics undergrads actual practical experience with
  radio astronomy tools, and to participate in their development and deployment.  Because too many astrophysics
  types these days have ZERO idea of how any of this stuff works in practice...

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[Anthony]

Yes, I did it myself using several compasses. I honestly couldn't take the chance of not being accurate. Each compass I calibrated multiple times and took true north readings and then used a tie line for sight to sight, West-East line for both landing pads. 

Then took each compass pointing true North, walked the tie line again and again. Then I built a satellite dish mounting pole template, when all the cement was poured, I used a compass and leveler to make sure the Eastern landing pad was as accurate as possible before setting it's final position. 

Marcus, that was a painful and tedious job!! The Western dish is nothing but rock! That was a hard dig! 

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[Anthony]

I ended up using a pickaxe to break the rock and shovel it out. I did very little digging on the western hole, once I kept cracking the rock into smaller rocks, the hole was there. Like said, a very hard dig!

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[Marcus D. Leech]

On 25/08/2023 20:53, Anthony wrote:

I ended up using a pickaxe to break the rock and shovel it out. I did very little digging on the western hole, once I kept cracking the rock into smaller rocks, the hole was there. Like said, a very hard dig!

Oooof!

At the Rideau Ferry site (that we were only at for a year!), the entire site was exposed bed-rock.  Nice from a "no pesky
  vegetation in your line-of-site" perspective.   But a pain in other ways.  We ended up drilling anchor holes into the rock
  and pouring our foundations around anchors into the rock.  Wore out a hammer drill doing that, but learned about
  anchor epoxy, etc.    We mixed every last kg of that concrete by hand, in a wheelbarrow.   Oy.  My aching back....

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[Anthony]

Oh, I can only imagine the pain!!! But actually that sounded better than pouring cement. 🤔 Maybe I should have done the same, but never have I drilled anchor holes into rock. Not sure cinder blocks count. 

I'm sitting down now and becoming stiff! I may take Advil or a shot of bourbon. I don't know, maybe sleep is better. 

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[Marcus D. Leech]

On 25/08/2023 21:01, Anthony wrote:

Oh, I can only imagine the pain!!! But actually that sounded better than pouring cement. 🤔 Maybe I should have done the same, but never have I drilled anchor holes into rock. Not sure cinder blocks count.

We did both.  It allowed us to use smaller amounts of concrete than we would have used with a "floating pad" approach.

I'm sitting down now and becoming stiff! I may take Advil or a shot of bourbon. I don't know, maybe sleep is better.

Anti-inflammatory earlier rather than later is better--head off a longer-term inflammatory response.   But for me, they
  give me stomach problems, so I have to be careful...

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[Anthony]

Anti-flammatory, especially Advil is definitely not good for you, causes stomach bleeding and can damage the liver, especially if combined with alcohol. 

If I take two Advils, normally followed with 3 bottles of water. Taking Advil several days in a row, hurts my stomach as well and causes bleeding. 

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[Anthony]

I'm heading off to bed early. Pouring 16 bags of 36.29 Kilograms of high strength cement, I'll need all rest tonight for tomorrow. 

The weather in Roswell, GA has been 36.65 Celsius with an index of 41.11 Celsius and 89% humidity! 😯

Wish me well tomorrow! Good night...

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[Marcus D. Leech]

On 25/08/2023 21:13, Anthony wrote:

I'm heading off to bed early. Pouring 16 bags of 36.29 Kilograms of high strength cement, I'll need all rest tonight for tomorrow. 

The weather in Roswell, GA has been 36.65 Celsius with an index of 41.11 Celsius and 89% humidity! 😯

Wish me well tomorrow! Good night...

Have a good sleep.    Remember, the Universe moves really really slowly--it won't insist that you complete this all in one
  weekend :)

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[Hamish Barker]

Is the b210 the ettus coherent receiver? If so, nice!

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[Anthony]

Good morning! 

Yes, its the Ettus coherent transceiver. 

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[Jim Sky]

I want a YardMax!  

[Hamish Barker]

You could use your astro knowledge to do a survey using electronic star atlas and plumb line, avoiding any potential magnetic errors 

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[Stephen Thornber]

Never mind the system I want your space/land can’t do this stuff in my plot :(

Stephen G6SGA 

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[Anthony]

The thing is invaluable Jim! I even use it to haul Sod, boulders, tools up the hill. Even my trash cans down my steep driveway-hill! 

Comes delivered ready to go (unless you get plow), put oil in it, don't over fill fuel, start, let idle two minutes and drive the thing right off the crate! 

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[Anthony]

Probably 

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[Anthony]

Lol! That's the reason I purchased this house, for the land behind my backyard. Told the wife she can have rest to do as she pleases, the upper part of the backyard is mine! 😉

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[Marcus D. Leech]

On 29/08/2023 07:46, Anthony wrote:
> Lol! That's the reason I purchased this house, for the land behind my
> backyard. Told the wife she can have rest to do as she pleases, the
> upper part of the backyard is mine! 😉
>

I owned a 37-acre farm for 11 years.   Mostly cleared land.   I
foolishly only ever put 1 antenna on it :)   I also foolishly
  agreed to leave that paradise in 2006.  Divorced in 2009.  Too poor
to buy another place since then.

[Anthony]

So sorry to hear that! I've gone through similar issue in a divorce, 20 years go. 

Though, not quite the land loss, but two homes, car and clothes! I feel you Marcus, but we keep pressing onwards 💯 

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[Anthony]

Funny you mention that Hamish. I have several fellow Astrophotographers wanting to know why I haven't captured any more optical images, Astrophotography. 

I tell them, it's hard to pick up a optical scope, hook a camera & accessories and feel rewarded. I'm afraid Radio Astronomy has captured my soul...

If you're interested, this is my old astrobin site of astrophotography and my equipment, which some I'll sell.

Maybe when time permits, I'll go back and make corrections to the numerous RAS comment i posted that were wrong! 

Anthony Fuller's gallery - AstroBin

https://www.astrobin.com/users/itpartners12/collections/

On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 4:44 AM Hamish Barker <hamish...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Anthony]

The last concrete landing pad (western) was completed this past weekend. I took Marcus' advice and decided not to finish up the following day (after breaking rock), especially after waking up with a sore back! 

After inspecting the pole mount and satellite dish mount, there was plenty of rust everywhere! So I decided to do some sanding and painting, especially after I saw what Marcus was going through on his site with his dish gearbox I believe. The eastern dish landing pad with the pole mount attached came out balanced well and was aligned along east bound. 

I will not do this again, the 16 bags of high strength Quikrete Concrete @36.28 kilograms has worn me out! Loading up a flatbed truck, unloading onto the Yardmax, offloading onto the ground and then two bags at a time mixing the cement with a shovel was grueling!! But the work has been completed. I took my time and used a lightning rod to mark the center of the landing pad while pouring the cement. Once finished (was NOT easy as I typed), layed down the pole mount template, used a compass and leveler and began the work of making sure the Western landing pad was as accurate as possible and well balanced. 

As usual, images attached. 🙂

I'm in need of replacing the feed horns, I bent the eastern dish feed horn and need to fix or replace it. If there are any out there who can recommend where to purchase a good scalar feed horn I'm open or can pay, I'll need two and would prefer copper if possible. I'm honestly too tired to build two scalar feed horns at the moment, but will if I have to. 

Thanks again, SARA members for the tremendous support! 

Painted the pole mount and satellite dish mounting brackets. I'll next need to sand and paint the 3-meter dish as well. 

Below you can see the Feehornd is not a pointed center, I'll either fix that or replace it with a scalar feedhorn. 

The western dish landing pad alignment on the West-East line, in alignment to true North....

The old landing pads, I'll use one of the pads for the Solar Optical & Radio Telescope mount, when the weather permits, due to the EQ8-R Pro mount, not being weatherproof, bugger! 

On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 7:10 PM Hamish Barker <hamish...@gmail.com> wrote:

12m is a great spacing as the fringe transit will be about 4mins or more, allowing good temporal resolution even with a bit of averaging. My system is 10.7m. With you 3m dishes you should do well. 

Which receiver are you using? 

On Sat, Aug 26, 2023, 11:00 Anthony <itpart...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm almost completed, relocating the two, 3-meter dishes and I've managed to increase the baseline from 4.72 meters to 12.5 meters. I tried to squeeze as much distance as possible and stay out from under the white oak trees. 

I'm hoping the small increase in baseline and the correction of the West - East line (based on true North) will produce fringes and better angular resolution. I'm aware this is amateur radio astronomy equipment but doesn't hurt to put our best effort forth. 🙂

As you can see from the images, my original landing pads were way off! I definitely know more than I did almost three years ago, thanks to SARA! 

I'm hoping to finish up with the western dish landing pad (clean up) and pour high strength cement tomorrow, early morning! 

The price of a cement contractor to dig and pour cement, it was cheaper for me to just purchase a Yardmax, gas powered wheelbarrow and do the work myself. I can't tell you how much a gas powered wheelbarrow saved my back!  😊 

I've also decided to use the YardMax to lay down rocks, after putting down the weed fabric to remove as much grass as possible around the entire site. 

So far, I've put down 1500 kilograms of pebble rocks and have probably 8 - 10 more, 1000 kilogram bags of pebble rocks to go. 

Well, I'm off to pick up 8 bags of cement and 10 more bags tomorrow to complete the work.

Feedback is always welcome from SARA members! 

Thanks again for all the support! 

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[Marcus D. Leech]

On 05/09/2023 20:01, Anthony wrote:
> The last concrete landing pad (western) was completed this
> past weekend. I took Marcus' advice and decided not to finish up the
> following day (after breaking rock), especially after waking up with a
> sore back!

These days, if my observatory visits involve any kind of physical labor,
I usually need a couple of days to recover.  The only
  thing worse than aging is, well, not aging.     The Universe is patient.

>
> After inspecting the pole mount and satellite dish mount, there was
> plenty of rust everywhere! So I decided to do some sanding and
> painting, especially after I saw what Marcus was going through on his
> site with his dish gearbox I believe. The eastern dish landing pad
> with the pole mount attached came out balanced well and was aligned
> along east bound.

It's actually one of the two box-sections that form the elevation
"yoke".  We had a professional structural engineer look at it
  a couple of weeks ago, and he basically concluded "you worry too
much--sure, put some cover-plates on, and then move on--
  this structure is over-built by a large factor."

>
> I will not do this again, the 16 bags of high strength Quikrete
> Concrete @36.28 kilograms has worn me out! Loading up a flatbed truck,
> unloading onto the Yardmax, offloading onto the ground and then two
> bags at a time mixing the cement with a shovel was grueling!! But
> the work has been completed. I took my time and used a lightning rod
> to mark the center of the landing pad while pouring the cement. Once
> finished (was NOT easy as I typed), layed down the pole mount
> template, used a compass and leveler and began the work of making sure
> the Western landing pad was as accurate as possible and well balanced.

I poured 6 "floating" pads at our Rideau Ferry observatory.  I never
want to do that again if I can avoid it.

>
> As usual, images attached. 🙂
>
> I'm in need of replacing the feed horns, I bent the eastern dish feed
> horn and need to fix or replace it. If there are any out there who can
> recommend where to purchase a good scalar feed horn I'm open or can
> pay, I'll need two and would prefer copper if possible. I'm honestly
> too tired to build two scalar feed horns at the moment, but will if I
> have to.
>
> Thanks again, SARA members for the tremendous support!

Looks like you're building-out quite an astronomy "park".  Well done!

[Anthony]

Thanks Marcus!! 

I tell you, I poured the cement Sunday, and I'm still very drained! You're right, you need at least three days to recover! 

After pouring the 8th bag, I wanted to stop and go in the house, but knew there was no turning back! 

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[Marcus D. Leech]

On 05/09/2023 20:01, Anthony wrote:
>
>

> I'm in need of replacing the feed horns, I bent the eastern dish feed
> horn and need to fix or replace it. If there are any out there who can
> recommend where to purchase a good scalar feed horn I'm open or can
> pay, I'll need two and would prefer copper if possible. I'm honestly
> too tired to build two scalar feed horns at the moment, but will if I
> have to.
>
>

I don't know of anyone who is offering such for sale.

But I'll point out that at our observatory, due to space constraints, we
ended up using a patch feed, made by
  Sub-Lunar systems.  All copper interior construction, and nice and
compact.

https://sub-lunar.com/

Paul was easy to work with, and I believe that he made up a number of
them to have them "in stock".

[Anthony]

Great, I'll reach out to Paul. 

I was looking at the SETI site and contemplating on building a scalar ring and coffee can from copper. I just need to really look at the effort involved. I'm burned out from the cement... Lol

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[Marcus D. Leech]

On 05/09/2023 20:33, Anthony wrote:

Great, I'll reach out to Paul. 

I was looking at the SETI site and contemplating on building a scalar ring and coffee can from copper. I just need to really look at the effort involved. I'm burned out from the cement... Lol

If I were going that route, I'd stick with galvanized or aluminum.    I've found that the spiral-wound HVAC 6" duct is the right
  diameter, so the only thing the shop would have to really fabricate would be the choke ring.    The spiral-wound stuff is
  a lot stiffer and more robust.  The skin loss would be negligible, given the relatively-short length of the waveguide.  Granted,
  you wouldn't make an entire waveguide "plant" out of galvanized steel, but for short runs, won't make much of a difference...

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[Anthony]

Then the aluminum may be easier for me to make than galvanized. A lot of sheet metal shops close by are gone due to Covid.

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[Anthony]

Finishing up with the western dish, attached the pole mount which looks level. I'll finish painting the satellite dish mount and the dish. Align the feed horns on both dishes (straighten them out) and attach the coax cables. 

The feed horns will get replaced within the next several months, for now they'll have to do.  

The western dish, pole mount, is bent. I thought it was leaning because of the old cement pad movement but it's bent. It's level now, but still looks bent. 

Washers could be used to lean one side up, but that would throw off its level. Probably best the pole mount is level with the ground. 

Even though the pole mount is bent, it's level.

We'll see what the fringes look like now. The baseline is definitely more than 10 Lambdas apart now. 

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 8:29 PM Marcus D. Leech <patchv...@gmail.com> wrote:

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