Sew-Ups Anyone?

[Corwin]

Hi -

My first really nice bike had sew-up [now usually referred to as tubular] tires. This was back in the day (mid '70s) of 27" wheels, full campy grouppo, etc. I recall two things about sew-ups/tubulars:

1) The ride was incredible. Very smooth. Seemed to glide over the pavement. All this even though the tires were less than 30mm wide.

2) Flats were a major hassle to fix. First you had to get the tire off the bike. Sew-ups/tubulars are either glued to the rim or secured via two-sided tape. Then you had to find the leak, pull back the strip covering the seam in the casing (whence the name - sew-up), cut the seam near the leak, patch the tube inside, re-sew the seam in the casing, secure the strip covering the seam and reinstall the tire on the rim.

I had relegated sew-ups to the distant past until I saw Jan's recent post on tubulars. That got me to thinking about a new set of Rich-built wheels to go on my Riv custom. I have another bike to put the current set on, and I would like to recover some of the ride of the old bike.

Which leads me to my question - which rim would be best for my wheels? The rims need to be compatible with tubulars. Having ridden several sets of bomb-proof wheels using Velocity rims, I naturally gravitated to the Velocity Major Tom. Is there a better or more appropriate rim for tubulars? I'm planning on using Jan's FMB tubulars; probably one of the 33mm tires.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Corwin

[Bill Schairer]

Over the past year and a half I have converted my 4 most ridden bikes, including my Atlantis, to tubular. The Atlantis was the last and the only one with “modern” tubular rims, the Major Toms. The rear hub is a Deore XT and the front a Shimano dynahub. Right now I have Schwalbe Racing Ralph 50mm tires on the Atlantis. I’ve put more or less 300 miles on this setup and am quite happy with it. Overall, I’m guessing I have roughly 6,000 tubular miles. I have changed exactly two tires on the road, one puncture and one blowout of a used, rotten tire I shouldn’t have been riding. Definitely easier than fixing a clincher on the road. I have opened up two tires to repair punctures. One was a used FMB purchased with the puncture. Definitely a bit time consuming but not as bad as I expected and all part of the learning process and experience. I am no longer intimidated by it. Otherwise, my experience has been that if the tire will hold enough air to get reasonably hard, sealant will do the trick. If it can’t hold air at all, sealant will make a mess. Open the tire up instead. Once the tire has sealant, as near as I can tell, it must be like riding tubeless. I pulled a 1” brad out of a tire that I found after I got home. I’m still riding the tire. I’ve pulled 3 goat-heads out of front tires without sealant without suffering punctures. I did a 400 mile tour in New England with 4 spares and sealant because I didn’t want to become a liability to my buddies. Figured I’d have to get 5 flats that sealant wouldn’t cure before I would have to worry about opening a tire. There were 4 of us. Two flats but none were mine. The others were paranoid about riding off pavement on their clinchers but I had no fear and no problems. Around home, I was riding with one spare and sealant but have switched to two spares, saving sealant for home repairs.

I began my journey with Vittoria Rallys despite all the negative reviews. They are cheap so made a good learning tire for stretching, gluing, mounting etc and now serve as spares. They got me over the intimidation phase. I really like Veloflex Vlaanderen tires. They are 28mm and super comfortable and easy to mount. I ride them at 60 psi in front and 75psi in back. I’m 170 lbs. I picked up a pair of used FMB Sprints (32mm, 33 mm). They are absolutely dreamy. I had them on a backup bike which became not a backup. I finally took them off wanting to save them for a planned tour this fall (ha - good luck with that). The bike has fallen back to backup status. I was riding those at 30/35! At the pressures I’ve been riding tubulars I would be pinch flatting clinchers and not tolerating the squishy, lack of control feeling. I was just never able to dial in any clincher (including Compass) for comfort and road feel. I have been quietly wondering why Jan was not offering tubulars and am glad he now is. I, so far, will agree that there is little need to go wider than a tubular in the 30’s for comfort. I can ride the FMB’s at the same pressure as the 50mm Racing Ralphs and they are more comfortable and have much better feel on the road but the RR’s do provide much better float for rough stuff, sand, or mud.

Here is how I would rate the tires I have purchased - none at MSRP(just to address the expense issue a bit):

FMB Sprint purchased used. Dreamy and probably worth MSRP, as high as it is
Veloflex Vlaanderen, 2 sets purchased on sale. All 4 have around 1800 miles. The rears are getting a bit thin and will need to be retired soon.

Considerably down scale:
Vittoria Pave Evo CG 27MM purchased on sale after reading forum recommendations. Nice but I’m never drawn to them.
Schwalbe Racing Ralphs - really a class by themselves - I’d prefer a smoother tread but not a lot of choice at 50mm.
Dugast Ghiros (32,33) purchased used. Comparable to Steilacooms but I can ride at lower pressure even though narrower. Like the RR’s, tread pattern not really ideal for most of the riding I do but got em cheap and wanted to try them out. They are on that backup bike now which just does not draw me like it did with the FMB’s

Schwalbe G-one 30mm purchased on sale and not yet ridden. Will soon replace a set of the veloflex

My conclusion:

Looking for that wider, softer, faster ride and worried about whether they will fit your frame? Before you go buying a frame to fit those tires, try out tubulars. Softer, better ride. I do wonder about confirmation bias. My answer -

1. since switching to tubulars I have not had any saddle sores (which would sometimes plague me before)
2. Clincher days, Atlantis with 50mm Mondials was number one bike for rough pavement routes. Now any bike with tubulars. I found the 28mm veloflex just as comfortable as the 50mm clinchers on rough pavement. Atlantis riding time dropped dramatically when still wearing 50mm clinchers but is now back up since switch.
3. When I find myself consistently choosing to ride one bike over another because of the tires mounted I figure there must be some real difference.

Bill S

[Bill Lindsay]

"Schwalbe Racing Ralphs - really a class by themselves - I’d prefer a smoother tread but not a lot of choice at 50mm."

I didn't realize there was a Racing Ralph tubular.  I looked it up and there it is.  It's really cool to me that there is a Rivendell Atlantis out there in the world running Cyclocross Racing Sewups!  

Anyway, the size I found was a 700x35.  You say you have a 700x50 version of the Racing Ralph sewup?  Where did you buy it?  I'm SUPER intrigued by that possibility, and it has the brain gears turning...

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Bill Schairer]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Schwalbe-Racing-Ralph-Tubular-MTB-Tire-29x2-0-Black-with-PaceStar-Tread/303018970423?epid=26011375018&hash=item468d568d37:g:WOMAAOSwWk5cL6XW

Damn, I offered him $50 a month or two ago and he turned me down! I think I wound up buying them for $65 per tire (I think msrp is around $150!). I since picked up a third for $20 that some non-bike seller was selling on ebay but didn’t know the size. I took a chance and they were 622’s not 26” (which I think are also available as tubulars) so that was a score and between the 3 I’m at this current price. It is not clear to me whether Schwalbe is still making these tires. Dugast also makes greater than 40mm tubulars and will even put your choice of tread on at no extra cost, but they are expensive.

It seems the cyclocross guys sometimes sell their tires after the season so that is how I’ve picked up the FMB’s and Dugasts. For me, it was a way to try out the really high quality tires at a reasonable cost. Often they seem to be with the entire wheel set though. I had read that going to a high quality tubular over mid level was another quantum leap. As far as the FMB’s go, I would say that is true but I don’t have enough miles on them to judge durability and, besides, I got them used. I found the Vittoria Rally’s to be on par with the Vittoria Open Pave clinchers. The Veloflex are a quantum leap above that and the FMB’s another step up.

Bill S

[ted]

Aren't cycle cross tires (uci sanctioned anyway) restricted to something like 33 or 35mm?

I think I've read that pro mtn bikers also use tubulars, though I've never seen em for sale. Perhaps they exist but are not generally available.

Back in the early 90's when I was still riding sew ups (got my first set in the late 70's) I had a hard time finding a shop in silicon valley that would rebuild my campi hi flange / arc en ciel wheels as tubulars. Shop after shop wanted me to go with mavic clincher rims. I finally stumbled onto uncle al on the north end of cupertino (i think) who of course made a fabulous job of it (built wheels for lemond too). He even spontaneously tied and soldered em cause it seemed like a nice classic touch for a classic pair of wheels.

I never thought tubulars were all that hard to deal with, and they definitely rode great. Also I never had a pinch flat or "snake bite". But eventually I've adopted more mainstream modern equipment and no longer ride sew ups or freewheel hubs. Except for a track bike, I don't think I would accept the expense and limited selection/availability of tires and rims that going back to sew ups would entail.

I do think its neat that some folks outside the pro racing scene are doing it though, and I look forward to hearing more about how they are doing with it.

[Patrick Moore]

This is very interesting, since -- next year, God willing -- I hope to get that Libertas frameset refurbished and built, and I'd thought of using (for the first time in my life) tubulars. Your experience matches what others have said, that all else equal, you get fast + cushioned with narrower tubulars compared to wired-ons.

Other Bill: I found this: 700C X 50 Racing Ralph tubulars: https://www.schwalbetires.com/node/458

And these intrigue me too, because -- and here are the questions: could I expect similar cush from 50 mm tubulars as with 60 mm tubless wired-ons?

and #2: Would tubular Racing Ralphs roll faster than wired-on Racing Ralphs, all else equal?

Upshot: How would 700C X 50 RR tubulars compare in rolling resistance and cushioning to 700C X 60 tubeless Big Ones?

One big advantage would be more clearance between tire and fender; but just realized that, too, the RRs have knobs .. probably not good with fenders. (I've little fear of fenders over the Big Ones even on twig-littered dirt).

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Patrick Moore]

Another tubular question: is the Racing Ralph the only tubular at least 50 mm wide? A quick Google found nothing.

One downside -- right? -- to switching to the 50 mm RR tubulars would be to lock yourself into a single model made by a single supplier; rather as I have done with my Riv Roads, tho' mitigated with the new frame by a design that can take the Nachez Pass, too.

[Bill Schairer]

Dugast sells mtb tubulars. Looks like they have a 52mm tire for sale. I’ve exchanged emails with the usa dealer and I think he pretty much said tell me what you want and they’ll make it at no extra cost to the admittedly high price of their tires.

I’ve never ridden tubeless and have no interest so can’t comment on how they compare. One of the guys I rode with last year on GDMBR was on tubeless and was the only one of the 3 of us to have tire issues. One of his tires blew out. Fortunately, we were close to the highway and he luckily caught a ride into the nearest town which did not have needed replacement but, again luckily, he was able to get one delivered from another town and was back on the road the next day. He said it took 4 people to get the new tire mounted with a tube. They must have pinched it because it went flat the next day and it took the 3 of us to replace the tube. I was not impressed.

It may be a silly thought but, I just wanted to see if doing something like GDMBR on tubulars would be feasible. I’ve done two one week trips and for that I think they just might work. Wouldn’t think of doing it all in one ride on tubulars, at least not until I had been able to do a week or so on them successfully. I’ve only done a little bit of off road, rough stuff on the RR’s so far and not loaded so that experiment is in very early stages. If not for this curiosity I wouldn’t even be thinking 50mm tires. For a mixture of unloaded road and normal gravel/dirt (whatever that might mean), I’m thinking any tubular between 30-40mm should be most adequate and provide as much comfort as anything. As for comparing the 50mm clinchers to the 50mm tubulars (both of which actually measure at 47 for me) with extremely limited experience yet, I want to say 30-35 psi is as low as I want to go on the road. Off road I think I can probably go lower on the tubulars and feel like I get better float and a less harsh ride with better traction. More experimenting to do there. The Mondials are almost 2 lbs each without tubes but have been bomb proof. The RR’S are lighter and so are the tubular wheels but I’m betting the RR’s are not bomb proof. Don’t know how the risk reward is going to play out yet but I’m having fun (can you tell?)!

Bill S

[Bill Schairer]

Oh, I think Vittoria(?) produces a 50mm tubular under another brand name which I forget. Somebody does but, nonetheless, tire choices do seem to be quite limited.

Bill S

[alan lavine]

Tell me about sealant and tubulars.  Do you mean pressurized sealant in a can like Vittoria, once you flat,or sealant you add preventively as routine?

Thanks,

Alan NYC

[Bill Schairer]

“Tell me about sealant and tubulars. Do you mean pressurized sealant in a can like Vittoria, once you flat,or sealant you add preventively as routine?“

Alan, I’m using effetto mariposa caffelatex. It has no ammonia. I was told ammonia (in Stans?) will dissolve latex tubes.

I’ve read some use it preventatively but I wait for my first puncture before adding it. After that, it seems to do very well as a preventative although there have been times where I’ve lost enough air that I had to add more air on a ride and then the tire does just fine. In one case, I was taking a break with a friend and all of a sudden I heard the air escaping from a previously sealed tire. It didn’t go all the way flat so I spun it and aired up again and finished the ride. Figured the sealant gave way but then was able to re-seal? I don’t know if I am just lucky or if latex tubes generally hold air after a puncture better than butyl but most of the punctures I have had were not evident until the day after my ride. Does anyone know about that? I’ve never added sealant on a ride and, like I said, only had to change one tire on the road due to puncture. That was a cut that I had to patch.

Bill S

[Alan Lavine]

Do you add the sealant as a road side repair? Or change tires and add sealant at home?
Alan

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[Bill Schairer]

“ Do you add the sealant as a road side repair? Or change tires and add sealant at home? ”

Alan,I used to carry sealant and a spare but I decided injecting sealant was a messy enough job I wanted to wait until I got home. I’ve never administered it on the road. I now carry 2 spares. At home, where it is easy to clean up, I add sealant when needed. On my tour, I carried sealant and spares.

BillS

[Julian Westerhout]

Bill, 

I think that the tubular-sho Atlantis is an amazing thing -- kudos. I had no idea tubulars existed in that size. Pretty neat. I's love to see a photo -- and I think you should send a photo to Will at Riv for the Blug 

I have a '70's vintage road bike with  tubulars -- cheap ones at the moment, not ridden much, but they're great compared to the 25c clincher alternative for that bike. Perhaps i'll look for used higher-end tires. Odd to think tubulars might be experiencing a mini-renaissance. In the early '80s I worked at a road- oriented shop that had lots of training tubulars to patch in the winter. 

Julian Westerhout

Bloomington, IL 

[Corwin]

Hi -

Can we get back to the question I posed? The original question was: Which rim is best for tubulars? The only mention of a rim I've seen so far is the Major Tom's Bill ran on his Atlantis. Does anyone else have experience on rims other than Velocity Major Tom's?

And for Patrick -

To quote Jan: "A wide tires has so much casing that the clincher rim no longer makes up a significant portion of the tire’s circumference. And that means that with truly wide tires, the advantages of tubulars disappear. But for narrow tires, a great tubular will transform your bike."

I do not think you will find many tubulars much wider that 34mm.

Namaste,

Corwin

[Bill Schairer]

Corwin,

I didn’t mean to hijack your thread. I apologize. You asked about Major Toms and I am using them with good luck so far so thought I was responding appropriately and then answered resulting direct questions. I built up another set with Mavic Reflex and those have been fine as well. Mine were used and I thought no longer available new but see now that they are. I think they are narrower than the Major Toms. Not sure there are many other choices besides carbon or wood.

I agreed with Jan’s comment.

Bill S

[Bill Lindsay]

The money-is-no-object best tubular rim for a Rivendell custom is, in my opinion, the HED Belgium.  I don't run the tubular variant, but I run several wheelsets built around the clincher HED Belgium, Belgium Plus, and Ardennes wheels.  They are exceptional rims.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Corwin]

Hi Bill(s) -

I don't really care where the thread goes - especially if my question gets answered along the way. HED Belgium gives me another option.

Namaste,

Corwin

[Chris Corral]

I rode tubulars on an 80's steel road bike for a few years. I am a younger, newer rider (26 years old at time of press) so I didn't have the "first bike" experience you mentioned, but I was drawn to tubulars for the ride quality and weight savings. I used Continental Sprinter Gatorskins I think. I also put Stan's sealant in them to avoid flats, and it worked really well! The only failure/flat I had was from a pile of glass shredding both tires to an unusable state. I had also at various times used Vittoria, Contiential Rally, and Panaracer tubs on this bike and carbon race wheels but the Sprinters were my go-to. I think I would like to try it again.

I quit using tubulars, though now I do have a 70's Jack Taylor with some Schwalbe G one 30mm tires mounted. Not many miles on them though. 

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 10:02:26 PM UTC-7, Corwin wrote:

[Clayton Scott]

And there is a this newly dug rabbit hole right in front of me...

Clayton Scott
HBG, CA