Rapid rise polarizing

[sam.per...@gmail.com]

Hey guys,
Why is there so little info on rapid rise RD and why is it so polarizing. Sources include bike snob grants blog and random internet sources. Takeaways were finicky and needing frequent adjustment but also great concept and easy down shifting. Any experience thoughts insights?

Thanks

[Joe Bernard]

I had one for a short while and found it finicky to install and counterintuitive to shift. I'm sure both of these reactions are based on decades of high-normal derailers, I think RapidRise is probably better for new riders who've never messed with the other way. 

[brendonoid]

Just done a few hundred kms with a rapid rise. Have never used one before, I certainly feel the advantages friction shifting it. If I was running indexed I honestly don't know what the advantage would be? It would be very hard to tell and the few but significant downsides would seem not worth it to me.

- The cable and barrel adjuster are the most fragile part of a derraileur and in Rapid rise protrude right out there, could break it just dropping the bike.

- Requires an intact shifter cable and fully functioning shifter to remove the rear wheel.

- Breaking a lifetime of habit to shift correctly isn't actually very easy to do.

Grants latest Blahg showed a CAD image of his new rapidrise and I would like to suggest it would be super simple to run the cable pull on the inside of the parrallelogram. Would require a redesign of the top but be worth it IMHO.

[John Hawrylak]

brendonoid commented    "If I was running indexed I honestly don't know what the advantage would be? It would be very hard to tell and the few but significant downsides would seem not worth it to me."

Shimano probably came to the same conclusion.  I wish Grant well with his Low Normal fascination, but think it takes time from other items.  

Did know of one RD cable breaking on a hilly portion.  We were able to ride downhill to a shop to get a new cable.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[ascpgh]

I tried the Deore level RR RD on my commuter after hearing all the platitudes. Meh. That was about it for me. 

Always shifted wrong on first grab of the bar end shifter, muscle memory is like Sharpie writing in this case. I probably would adapt easier to switching sides of controls for both brakes and derailleurs before I normalized the intuitive presumption of which way on the shifter. It was the first derailleur I ever used that wore out the upper jockey wheel bearing to 15-20° play/lean to either side. All speculation excepthat it was a Rapid Rise format and it's upper wheel failed with remarkably low miles. Confusing, short life span? You know how I've voted.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Patrick Moore]

The Rapid Rise LX rd on my 2010 Sam Hillborne was one of the best shifting (friction, Silver shifters) rds I've ever used, but I swapped it out for a less-well-shifting 8-speed-era XT rd because decades of habituation to high-normal derailleurs made it awkward to use. Fortunately I found a Microshift "normal" rd that shifted fully as well as the LX.

My opinion: people are used to high-normal and low-normal hasn't been around in sufficient quantity to become an alternative standard.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Patrick Moore]

One more assertion: I don't think that low-normal has many real advantages over high normal. At least, I didn't experience any. What are the supposed benefits of low normal, besides riding home in a 30" gear instead of a 100" gear in the 1-in-1000 chance that your rd cable breaks on the road? (And, y'know, there are derailleur movement limit screws.)

[sam.per...@gmail.com]

Brendonoid, can you tell me more about an intact cable to remove the wheel , I could imagine a shifter would need to hold its position against tension to remain on the smallest cog for wheel removal.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 13, 2021, at 5:10 AM, brendonoid <bre...@areyoualert.com> wrote:

Just done a few hundred kms with a rapid rise. Have never used one before, I certainly feel the advantages friction shifting it. If I was running indexed I honestly don't know what the advantage would be? It would be very hard to tell and the few but significant downsides would seem not worth it to me.

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[sam.per...@gmail.com]

Hi Andy ,

Wonder why the wheel wore out so quickly. Feedback so far seems to be consistent with my internet  findings. But I’m getting great perspective.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 13, 2021, at 7:27 AM, ascpgh <asc...@gmail.com> wrote:

I tried the Deore level RR RD on my commuter after hearing all the platitudes. Meh. That was about it for me. 

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[Collin A]

I'd imagine everyone's experience is slightly different...but I quite like my RR XTR RD mounted on my appaloosa to bar end silver2 shifters. I got a used one on ebay in the before times for a fair price and with a replaced set of jockey/pulley wheels its been fine for about 1000 km.

I've only been friction/bar end shifting for about 5 years now, so I don't have decades of muscle memory to rewrite, but it is quite intuitive to me...at least it is when you also have a FD, so to go up a gear the bar ends get pushed in the same direction.

I've also noticed its a wee bit easier to shift down under a bit of load and the derailleur tends to land better (i.e. less precision needed in the shift) in those events. But that's all perception and cannot be quantified, so take it with a grain of salt. 

Cheers, 

Collin, its only 90 today, in Sacramento

On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 10:08:30 PM UTC-7 Sam Perez wrote:

[Ginz]

I have and still use rapid rise on several bikes.  I thought the "disadvantage" was that up-shifts were slower.  From a race and performance point of view, up-shifts should be faster.  You need to be able to shift up while you hammer.

I finally gave in and put a 2x10 on my hardtail and the rapid rise went bye-bye.  To this day, I am still confused when I shift.

Aside from that, it's a tough change to get one's mind around.  It would be like telling everyone to swap their brakes left and right -- worse actually.  I think it comes down to "why change."

[Bill Lindsay]

Sam Perez asked three questions, but has only received answers to the third of the three.  I'll attempt to answer all three:

1.  Why is there so little info on rapid rise RD?

I think there is too much.  Grant is genuinely excited about the project and I think he can't help but share a little.  If it were me I'd keep silent on it until it exists to buy.  It may never happen, so pushing info and then killing it will be a bummer.  Also, so many people are willing to bellyache about Rapid Rise, why invite all the bellyachers to badmouth a part that doesn't exist yet?

2.   why is it so polarizing?

I don't know for sure, but I have a ton of ideas, too long a list to get into.  It is confusing to me how popular it is to badmouth the Rapid Rise RD.  I think it's the contrarian position now to say you like Rapid Rise.

3.  Any experience thoughts insights?

Lots of experience, lots of thoughts.  Up to you if they qualify as insights.  I bought up a bunch of M760 rear derailers when they were going out of production.  That RD is on 4 of my 18 builds, and I have no trouble remembering how to shift any of my bikes.  Maybe it's because I'm a mechanic that I understand how things work.  Maybe it's because I have a lot of bikes and use them all a lot that I can remember how to use each of them, despite their differences.  Maybe it's because each of my builds is different and because I've really carefully executed each build that each bike for me has a "profile" that I have no problem recalling.  I imagine a lot of people prefer to use their bike without much thought.  For some people, a great compliment for a bicycle is that it 'disappears'.  For others, it's something like "I don't want to be bothered remembering that backwards shifting.  I just want to ride my bike"

I think shifting gears on a bicycle is dead-simple no matter what you use.  I think getting wrapped around the axle between different shifting approaches is kind of crazy.  It's like handwringing about tying your shoes, because slip-ons are so much simpler.  It's all simple.  Use what you want to use and enjoy your ride!

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 10:08:30 PM UTC-7 Sam Perez wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

I read Question 1 as info about high-normal derailers in general, not info on the one Grant is working on. 

[Joe Bernard]

Sorry, low-normal. RapidRise. That thing. 

[Jim M.]

The main advantage I find with Rapid Rise is that it shifts to a lower gear much more easily when you're pedaling uphill, which I've found more useful on steep mountain bike routes than with road biking. I've had an RR derailleur on one bike and standard on another and in my experience I never had a problem going back and forth. I echo Bill's comment that shifting is pretty simple on a bike whichever direction you're going.

jim m

walnut creek

[Joe Bernard]

Of course the whole issue with "counterintuitive" - which I raised earlier - goes out the window on a 1x. I had difficulty relearning which way the levers went on a 2-levers bike. 

[iamkeith]

I think Jim is right:  it's easier to downshift under load, and I think that would be a big benefit for newer riders or those switching from triggers / brifters and just being introduced to the benefits of levers, friction and mix-and-match drivetrains for the first time.  For old farts like me who still habitually let up on pedal pressure when shifting even when the newest, greatest drivetrain systems don't require it, and who have always used friction mode, and who are used to rotating a certain direction to effectuate an up- or down-shift, it's just something to think about - no real benefit, but no real downside either.

Because of Grant's proselytizing, I decided to try it on my Susie.  I was already using 6 speed shifters on a 9 speed drivetrain, with left and right reversed and on the wrong side of the bar (a'la Clem Smith), so I was confused anyway.  No learning curve - just different.  Before this experience, I guess I might have considered myself "polarized" and highly resistant - but now I just think it's nice idea to have options.  

(Side note regarding fragile barrel adjusters: It must be unique to the XTR derailleurs, but my combination ended up with no barrel adjusters whatsoever, so I added some at the cable stops.  See pics attached.)

Big question:  The Riv gang used to talk about this project as if the spring in the parallelogram would be reversible so that they could operate either as high-normal OR low-normal.  Is that idea off the table?

[iamkeith]

[iamkeith]

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 12:55:24 PM UTC-6 iamkeith wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

One of the many shifter-configurations I use and like is stem shifters.  Two of my Rivendells have stem shifters.  On a bike with stem shifters and drop bars, it's possible to hit the shifter with my knees when climbing out of the saddle.  The steeper the climb the more forward my body is relative to the bike when climbing out of the saddle.  With a standard rear derailer, if I'm climbing that very steep hill in a very low gear, the right side shifter is pulled all the way back, the MOST likely position for me to bump it with my knee, and that means an UPSHIFT, which sucks when climbing.  With Rapid Rise a low gear means both shifters all the way forward, so it's the least likely place for me to bump it, and even if I did, it would downshift a bit.  So I use a Rapid Rise Rear Der on both of those Rivendells

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 11:10:11 AM UTC-7 Jim M. wrote:

[Steven Sweedler]

Bill, do you have pictures of your stem mounts or a description of the hardware. Thanks, Steve

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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

[ascpgh]

Sam, I am guessing that the derailleur is always tensioned toward the next larger size cog if shifted, whether or not the drive train is turning enough to initiate a physical change of cogs. 

Shifting before indexing imprinted me with a pause of cadence at the time of a shift to easing chain tension allowing the chain over the teeth of one cog to to get over to the next. Low normal of Rapid Rise springing has the top jockey wheel physically pushing the chain against a larger cog at the beginning of any downshift until cadence and conditions permitted the chain to start transferring from one cog to the next. At every moment that cadence or tension is preventing a shift from happening, the top wheel is subjected to non productive lateral force as it presses the next larger cog with the chain.  

Maybe it was that or maybe I just had a bum one. 

The mentioned difficulty of wheel removal "in event of a broken cable" is because the derailleur take the chain to largest cog instead of the smallest, taking away necessary slack to get the maneuver the cassette and wheel out of or back into the dropouts and chain. I'd fix the cable first, even if the wheel is in need of service, just to make it less of a fight. 

Fixed my broken pulley with a set of Bullseye jockey wheels but the Rapid Rise low normal could not fixed from the aftermarket. Changed to a high normal since it continued to feel odd to me. Like a bucket truck that needed hydraulic power to lower the bucket to the ground, it just felt wrong to me so I reverted to the traditional. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Peter Adler]

Even then, there have been craftier and more flexible ways to deal with broken shifter cables over the years.

Different derailleur technologies offer different options. Consider the Simplex Juy 51 pull-chain derailleur of the early 1950s: In the event of a broken shift cable, you hook the now-uncontrolled pullchain (which moves a plunger inboard/outboard, thereby moving the pulley cage) onto a bracket (referred to in English brochures as the "Get You Home" bracket, #1205 in the attached image) mounted on the plunger shaft in a position to center the pulley cage on your desired gear. Not only does this change your unshiftable derailleur into a single-speed chain tensioner, but unlike a rapid-rise derailleur, you can pick your desired gear out of the full range of your multi-cog freewheel.

Peter "if anybody has one or more of those brackets, I'll buy them off ya, for paranoia reasons" Adler

diving deep into obsolete French bike tech so you don't have to in

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Bill Lindsay]

Steven

It's the Interloc product.  I run Silver 1 shifters on my Hillborne and Silver 2 (X/O) shifters on my Atlantis

Bill

[Bill Lindsay]

Andy Cheatham claimed:  "  Low normal of Rapid Rise springing has the top jockey wheel physically pushing the chain against a larger cog at the beginning of any downshift until cadence and conditions permitted the chain to start transferring from one cog to the next"

This is a description of a rear derailer set up incorrectly.  This is not a description of the fundamental properties of a Rapid Rise rear derailer.  The upper jockey wheel on a correctly set up rear derailer does not operate in this way, regardless of which polarity the rear derailer is.  

There are plenty of reasons to decide that one doesn't like Rapid Rise, but the above was "a bum one".  It was a bum setup.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Andrew Letton]

For those using bar-end shifters and a RR derailleur, has anyone tried flipping the shifter upside down (so cable routes along top of bar)?  Seems this could solve the muscle-memory issue...

cheers,

Andrew

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[Benz Ouyang, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Monday, July 12, 2021 at 10:08:30 PM UTC-7 Sam Perez wrote:

Why is there so little info on rapid rise RD and why is it so polarizing. Sources include bike snob grants blog and random internet sources. Takeaways were finicky and needing frequent adjustment but also great concept and easy down shifting. Any experience thoughts insights?

I feel a bit like an expert on this topic, as most of my Shimano-equipped bikes have rapid-rise, aka lo-normal rear derailleurs, and I've been using this type of rear derailleur since its introduction as the XTR RD-M953 rear derailleur in…a long time ago. I'm committed enough in this particular way of shifting that I have a stash of RD-M960 rapid-rise derailleur spares.

To understand rapid-rise, one has to go back to when mountain biking was in its toddler years. That was in the early-to-mid 90s, around when Rivendell was born. Back then, to reduce the force required at the shifter (for both Rapid Fire and grip shift), derailleur return springs got progressively weaker. It got to the point when rear derailleurs would have trouble shifting into the tallest gear (smallest cog) when it was only moderately dirty. Then came the "fixes" – Grip Shift bass worms, stronger aftermarket return springs that were near impossible to install, and other interesting knick-knacks that were usually CNCed and anodized. 

Of course, an inability to shift into the tallest gear was bad for racing, so Shimano came up with the rapid-rise design to ensure that fingers forced the shift into the tallest gears, and spring tension shifted the chain onto the lowest gears. It worked very well, actually, as coincidentally downshifting works better with more finesse than upshifting, and the constant spring tension suited downshifting better than a panicky finger (as the cyclist realized too late that the legs+lungs were not nearly as strong as expected). The rumors about rapid-rise derailleurs being finicky is untrue, based on my use of many rapid-rise derailleurs from LX to XTR (but mostly XTR, so I may be biased). Neither were these more prone to failure or getting caught on trail debris, simply because they are essentially identical to derailleurs of the same era save for how their return springs attach. I'll admit that my fave, the RD-M960 does not come with a built-in cable adjuster, so you'll need that function at the shifter pod, or you'll need to install an inline adjuster; no biggie though.

All was not well unfortunately, because as good as rapid-rise performed, it also went against years of muscle memory of most cyclists. Soon, there were threats and riots, and Shimano was forced to switch back to high-normal, to preserve their domination of the mountain bike component market share. As I stated earlier, I run mostly rapid-rise on my Shimano equipped bikes, but I do have a few exceptions; for example, the M900 1st gen XTR gruppo on my Atlantis is obviously not rapid-rise. So there are occasions when I would miss a shift because I wasn't paying enough attention to which bike I'm on; but honestly, 5 minutes into it and I'm back to thinking about needing a higher or lower gear, rather than whether I should move the shift lever this way or that. It's not that big of a deal, for me at least.

[Patrick Moore]

This only works with left-side-mounted derailleurs, though.

[Victor Hanson]

That's basically correct.  Its a bicycle with a backwards derailleur, get use it, and using is the most important item! 

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VIctor R. Hanson

Gen Mgr

Schmier Industrial Properties

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c:  510-207-8593

[Joe Bernard]

Just ride backwards.