On Sep 10, 2023, at 5:53 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
Of course it might be worse on your current bike than any Rivendell. I have an old/cheap Marin hybrid with Boscos and the nervous/tiller effect on that one is kinda ridiculous, Rivs don't act like that.
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On Sep 10, 2023, at 9:43 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
Garth opens up another can of worms with perception. Am I aware that there's a smidge of tiller effect on my custom and significantly more on Cheap Old Hybrid? Yes. Do I actually perceive this on rides? Nope. I like the bars and the bikes go and turn and stop and I haven't a care in the world, I ride them and it's fun.
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My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall adjustable stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. Wondering if a shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make things more steady?
More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a shallow drop bar. Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride them. I found just the opposite myself..... it's like wanting to get from Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle. .... "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which one enjoys.I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something more than they ever are. .... a means to "the ride" ! That quest for "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking in some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough, and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't absent in any way. What a paradox ..... things that seem to appear missing aren't missing at all..... they're revealing in the Light the actuality of What IS :) How cool that is ...... Ride on.
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I have no dog scheduled for participation in this most benign of discussions, but I do have a question. I as Garth like a riding position that bends my hips sufficiently -- so, sufficient saddle setback and sufficient bar drop and distance -- and I as he expect that a Roadini designed for a drop bar will handle awkwardly with a Billy Bar. I'm speculating but that would certainly be true with my blue Ram or even first edition Sam.But the Clem and similar designs: I have a practical interest as I have seriously considered buying a Clem. So my question is, to Garth and others: doesn't the very design of the Clem frame "optimize" it for a sweepback bar and an upright riding position?So, isn't the Clem designed for long sweepback bars by having a very long tt so that despite your Billy Bar you still have to learn forward enough for decent hip angle?There is a discussion currently over on iBob about sta and whether steep stas allow more power, and one thread direction has been rod brake roadsters and omafietses which of course have very slack stas. It has been asserted that these very slack stas are good because they allow you to sit bolt upright while getting enough hip angle to put needed torque on the pedals -- and God knows that RBRs are overgeared by modern standards: 68' or 72 and that's before you add a SA AW hub with 133% overdrive!I realize that all of this has nothing to do with "tiller effect."
On Sep 13, 2023, at 6:39 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:
In regards to being "old" and needing high bars as an accommodation, well that isn't true at all. I'm more flexible now on the bike than I ever was in my teens to 20's. All that's needed to express one's inherent abilities, it to express it. Yes that's sounds funny, and it is, because it's that simple.
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Garth, of course nothing you say here is wrong, it’s simply not the same for everyone. And I know you know that. I am a 68 year old lifetime cyclist. I’ve been through many drop bar bikes and though my last one (Custom Richard Sachs) was easily the best, I was never truly comfortable.