Joe Appaloosa 700c to 650b via Paul motolite barkes

[Justin Wyne]

So I may be misunderstanding this "while skirting Rivendell's advice to not meddle with making their 700cc designed bikes into 650b" but the fact that the Appaloosa is able to take linear pull brakes tempts a fella to put the Paul motolite to the test it the brakes work in the reverse, 26" to 650b or 700c. Thoughts?

[Adam Leibow]

you can't make the wheel size smaller with the motolite brakes, only bigger. for example, a vintage MTB with 26" wheels can take 650b or even 700c (small tires) using the motolites. but you can't go the other direction unless you have a framebuilder move the canti studs down. 

[Joe Bernard]

There's also the matter of BB height. Riv already designs them low, which negates one of the reasons to 650B-ize a 700c bike while creating a major pedal strike problem. Your 700c Joe doesn't need the fix.

[Joe Bernard]

I should add "in my opinion" to that. Reading it back now, it has an abrasive tone I didn't intend. Sorry!

[Austin B.]

I'm wondering what you're looking to achieve. Appas take 55mm tires I think so I don't think you'll gain anything in tire width or more cush.

Unless it's just that you want to tinker and see if it works for the fun of doing an experiment. Then I totally get why you're doing it!

Best,

Austin

[Peter Adler]

I've done this (or at least attempted this) with an old VooDoo frame that I tried to convert to 700c. I was using Paul's MotoBMX, which has greater travel range than the Motolites, because the brake arms lack the cutaway close to the cable clamp (so the arms are a little heavier). My takeaway was that even though you can place the pads correctly on those long brake arms, you lose so much mechanical advantage in a 26"-to-700c conversion that it's not worth the effort, and it's a waste of pricy brakes.

I still did the conversion, but I used a 700c CX fork and a Mavic Caliper Adjuster in the back - a sort of mid-00s brake boosterish bracket that mounts on the normal 26" studs, with a second set of studs brazed on in 700c position. I went to 16 different Mavic dealers in the East Bay before finding one; every single one of them looked at me as if I was crazy (WTF are you talking about? Why would anybody want that?), until I walked into Montano Velo in Oakland, made my lhopeless little speech for the 17th time, and the kid behind the counter said, "oh, you mean THESE?", and pulled a cardboard box with six of them out.

Using the MotoBMXes with the studs placed in 700c position gave me back the same brake power I would have had with 26" wheels.

My guess is that 26"-to-700c was a bridge too far. You might be able to get away with 650B wheels, if you set the brakes tight enough to address the reduction in mechanical advantage. The bigger concern would be the fork; be sure the brake strength is enough, or maybe swap in a 650B fork.

Peter Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Ian A]

I have done something similar with a bike I own. Not a Riv, but also has relatively low bb height. It is a bike originally designed for 650b rim brake wheels. I had the cantilever posts moved so I could use 26" wheels instead. I just really wanted a 26" allrounder, road geo and spritely tubing. It turned out well and scratched an itch. Where I live, 26" rim brake wheels are much easier/cheaper to source so it offered that advantage too.

Moving the canti posts is invasive work. On my bike the originals were Tig welded, so needed cutting off. The replacement posts are brazed on. The paint had to be sacrificed in the the area of the brake posts, of course. I touched up with primer and a contrasting top coat. It came out nicely enough and I'm pleased with my 26r.

If you did this mod to your Appa, you'd be able to switch between 700c and 650b using the Motolites. Generally, I don't think you'd improve the bike or achieve much else than scratching an itch. I do NOT discourage you in this!

IanA
alberta canada

[Ian A]

Peter:

Justin is looking to go the other way. From 700c to 650b. A relatively easy mod for a frame with removable canti posts, but brazed on/tig'd ones require surgery.

IanA

[Peter Adler]

That's not the way I interpreted this passage:

"tempts a fella to put the Paul motolite to the test it (if?) the brakes work in the reverse, 26" to 650b or 700c" (not 26" from 650b or 700c)

I'm not familiar with Justin's frame size, which he hasn't posted in this thread, but the smallest Appaloosa (51 cm) is a 26".

In practical terms, correct pad placement for Paul V-brakes is pretty close to the posts. Without rebrazing those posts, going from 700c to 26" is a nonstarter. I'm just saying that the other direction is sort of a nonstarter too, no matter what Paul would like us to believe.

Justin, a little clarification would help. Are you proposing to embiggen or ensmallen your wheels?

Peter Adler

Berkeley, CA

[Joe Bernard]

The title says 700 to 650.

[Jim Bronson]

I've been running my early (road standard or custom) Riv 650B for years, yes it's low, but it feels normal to me.  Originally was 700x28 when I got it in 2005 (short reach brakes even), now 650B x38 with fenders, love it so much this way.

Jim

Austin, TX

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 3:05 PM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

There's also the matter of BB height. Riv already designs them low, which negates one of the reasons to 650B-ize a 700c bike while creating a major pedal strike problem. Your 700c Joe doesn't need the fix.

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[Adam Leibow]

Jim B, true with the appropriate-reach side or center pull brakes you can convert larger wheel size to smaller, but this does not apply to the OP's predicament due to the Appaloosa's brake type. 

Here's a pic of this 26" rockhopper i built up one time with Paul Motolites and 27.5 wheels. Cool in theory but the knobs on the tires rubbed the brake cable hanger: 

On Thursday, September 5, 2019 at 12:45:47 PM UTC-7, Justin Wyne wrote:

[Andrew Letton]

Hi Jim,

Have you ever tried 650Bx42s without fenders on your Road Standard? What size is your frame? I've got a 65cm Road Standard that I'd like to convert to 650B...someday...

cheers,

Andrew

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[Jim Bronson]

I was responding more to the comment about conversions being too low to the ground due to Rivendells already having a low bottom bracket height.

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[Justin Wyne]

Ah yes, I see how my posting could be confusing. The sentence should possibly read "tempts a fella to put the Paul motolite to the test if the brakes work in the reverse of 26" to 650b or 700c and will acomodate 700c to 650b"

I'm thinking of the possibility of changing a size 58 700c Appaloosa to run 650b. The inspiration for this swap is due to already having a 650b wheel set and not yet having an Appaloosa. I have no worry of a low BB on the Appaloosa, that was the skirting of Riv advice I mentioned in the original post. I've ridden plenty of bikes with low BB and have always been able to adjust my riding if need be to dull and possible danger.

[Peter Adler]

In that case, the only option I can imagine that doesn't involve "FIRE - and lots of it!" would be to mount centerpull calipers, assuming that the brake shoes will fit between the brazed-on canti posts. That way, you can test whether the smaller wheels deliver whatever payoff you're looking for, before removing/rebrazing the posts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDfqwHck2Qg

The logistical problem is that while the pivots of caliper brakes are above the brake shoes and the outer circumference of the tires/rims, the pivots of canti/V-brakes are below all those things. However much you lower the brake shoes/pads on Motolites, you can't get them below the canti post/pivot, which is where they'd need to be in order to hit the rim on a smaller-than 700c wheel. The only way to ensmallen the wheel would be to reverse the brake, putting the shoes below the posts. But then how would you get the cable to the brake, with the wheel in the way?

I recall seeing photos recently of some 50's-era French constructeur brake: A post-mounted, cam-operated thing where the shoes pressed in directly from the sides. In theory, one could flip the elements of those and reduce the size of the wheel, with a somewhat longer straddle cable. I'm guessing that if those had worked well, there would be a lot more of them around.

That's another possibility that might work with some monkeywrenching: A French-style post-mounted centerpull brake, typically used on 650B townie bikes. These put the shoes/pads below the pivots, as if they were Motolites with arms extending below the pivots. Bebolux is one of the more common brands, but there were a lot of others. Here's the idea:

http://www.blackbirdsf.org/brake_obscura/images/road/moreau.jpg

My guess is that none would fit your canti posts directly; Paul's Racer centerpulls specify that they use canti posts, not the smaller Mafac posts that French centerpull brakes typically use. The Motolites will use the same posts. But shouldn't it be possible to ream out the pivot holes in a French brake and press-fit a brass sleeve into the hole, in the manner of Compass/Rene Herse's Mafac replacement bearings?

The first thing to try is also the cheapest: Find a long-reach set of centerpull calipers (Weinmann or Dia-Compe 610, 750), see if the shoes can be squeezed between the canti posts, and see if they'll get down far enough to hit your preferred rim.

Or you could approach the problem from the other direction: Since you haven't bought an Appaloosa yet, don't. Instead, buy something that's designed around 650B wheels. Then you can use Motolites to run 700c wheels (with narrower tires). Or if you buy a frameset without braze-on posts at all, then you can switch wheel sizes by replacing brake calipers.

Peter "horses for courses" Adler

Berkeley, CA

[A. Nostuh]

I 650b’d my San Marcos. I went against the advice everyone gave and it was indeed better/awesome. The key is to use short/er cranks because as noted, the bb is already low. 165mm or shorter is ideal


Al in Saratoga


Oh yeah, a frame builder can lower the canti studs for you

[Garth]

So you're considering modifying a potential 700c frame ..... just to use a set of already-owned 650b wheels ?

Frankly, there's just no good way to spin a bad idea ! 

[Jonathan D.]

Easiest solution is to sell the Joe and buy a MIT Atlantis, which is mostly a 650B Joe.

[esoterica etc]

I second this idea. Grant is basically saying in the catalog comparing the Joe and the Atlantis that they’re essentially the same bike, just different wheel size (56cm and smaller). I was seriously considering a Joe for a long time, but then I built up a budget 650b conversion to see if I liked 650b better than 700c, and ultimately got the 56cm Atlantis.

Even if you could find a canti or v-brake that could adjust for the drop in wheel size, I think you’d be sacrificing a lot in ride quality. In my opinion, the designs of the current lineup from Rivendell are a result of decades of engineering refinement, and the less you mess with them, the better the ride will be. Sure, the bike will still roll if you put smaller wheels on it, but I doubt it’ll have that Riv magic feel any more. Sell the Joe and get an Atlantis is my vote as well.

~Mark

> On Sep 7, 2019, at 11:01, Jonathan D. <jdone...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Easiest solution is to sell the Joe and buy a MIT Atlantis, which is mostly a 650B Joe.
>

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