Whonix 14 - upgrade or re-install? Whats more smooth, less troublesome?

[qube...@tutanota.com]

I am planning to move from my Whonix 13 to Whonix 14 on Qubes. My question is what way it should be easier, based on the Q user experiences. What would you propose - upgrade or re-install? Are there any known issues which would call for one or other way?

I have few VMs based on the Whonix template with data and settings on it. Will the contents of these VMs remain, or will it be destroyed - re-install vs upgrade?

Thank you

[awokd]

On Sun, August 12, 2018 6:16 pm, qube...@tutanota.com wrote:
> I am planning to move from my Whonix 13 to Whonix 14 on Qubes. My
> question is what way it should be easier, based on the Q user
> experiences. What would you propose - upgrade or re-install? Are there
> any known issues which would call for one or other way?

Re-install is usually easier.

> I have few VMs based on the Whonix template with data and settings on it.
> Will the contents of these VMs remain, or will it be destroyed -
> re-install vs upgrade?

Contents should remain, just set them to the new Whonix template. Make
sure to back up everything first.

[Andrew David Wong]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

The installation guide [1] states:

"Re-installation will destroy any existing user data stored in Whonix
VMs, unless it is backed up first. To avoid this scenario, it is
possible to upgrade Whonix 13 to 14 instead of following these
instructions."

This was puzzling to me, too, since TemplateVM upgrades usually don't
affect user data in TemplateBasedVMs. Could you shed some light on
this, Patrick?

[1] https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Qubes/Install

- --
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org

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[Chris Laprise]

On 08/12/2018 05:23 PM, Andrew David Wong wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> On 2018-08-12 14:26, 'awokd' via qubes-users wrote:
>> On Sun, August 12, 2018 6:16 pm, qube...@tutanota.com wrote:
>>> I am planning to move from my Whonix 13 to Whonix 14 on Qubes. My
>>> question is what way it should be easier, based on the Q user
>>> experiences. What would you propose - upgrade or re-install? Are
>>> there any known issues which would call for one or other way?
>>
>> Re-install is usually easier.
>>
>>> I have few VMs based on the Whonix template with data and
>>> settings on it. Will the contents of these VMs remain, or will
>>> it be destroyed - re-install vs upgrade?
>>
>> Contents should remain, just set them to the new Whonix template.
>> Make sure to back up everything first.
>>
>
> The installation guide [1] states:
>
> "Re-installation will destroy any existing user data stored in Whonix
> VMs, unless it is backed up first. To avoid this scenario, it is
> possible to upgrade Whonix 13 to 14 instead of following these
> instructions."
>
> This was puzzling to me, too, since TemplateVM upgrades usually don't
> affect user data in TemplateBasedVMs. Could you shed some light on
> this, Patrick?

What I did: Cloned the old whonix-ws template, switched appvms to the
clone, then did 'dnf remove' on the old templates and finally performed
the recommended whonix install procedure.

Later, I was able to switch existing whonix appVMs to whonix-ws-14.

--

Chris Laprise, tas...@posteo.net
https://github.com/tasket
https://twitter.com/ttaskett
PGP: BEE2 20C5 356E 764A 73EB 4AB3 1DC4 D106 F07F 1886

[Franz]

Brilliant, thanks Chris

--

Chris Laprise, tas...@posteo.net
https://github.com/tasket
https://twitter.com/ttaskett
PGP: BEE2 20C5 356E 764A 73EB  4AB3 1DC4 D106 F07F 1886

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[qube...@tutanota.com]

This sounds very interesting Chris. This could be the way around the "loss of VM data" during the install process and push the INSTALL over UPGRADE decission. Did you do the same with the whonix-gw too?


Aug 13, 2018, 2:48 AM by tas...@posteo.net:

> On 08/12/2018 05:23 PM, Andrew David Wong wrote:
>

>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA512
>>
>> On 2018-08-12 14:26, 'awokd' via qubes-users wrote:
>>

>>> On Sun, August 12, 2018 6:16 pm, >>> qube...@tutanota.com <mailto:qube...@tutanota.com>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am planning to move from my Whonix 13 to Whonix 14 on Qubes. My
>>>> question is what way it should be easier, based on the Q user
>>>> experiences. What would you propose - upgrade or re-install? Are
>>>> there any known issues which would call for one or other way?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Re-install is usually easier.
>>>
>>>> I have few VMs based on the Whonix template with data and
>>>> settings on it. Will the contents of these VMs remain, or will
>>>> it be destroyed - re-install vs upgrade?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Contents should remain, just set them to the new Whonix template.
>>> Make sure to back up everything first.
>>>
>>
>> The installation guide [1] states:
>>
>> "Re-installation will destroy any existing user data stored in Whonix
>> VMs, unless it is backed up first. To avoid this scenario, it is
>> possible to upgrade Whonix 13 to 14 instead of following these
>> instructions."
>>
>> This was puzzling to me, too, since TemplateVM upgrades usually don't
>> affect user data in TemplateBasedVMs. Could you shed some light on
>> this, Patrick?
>>
>

> What I did: Cloned the old whonix-ws template, switched appvms to the clone, then did 'dnf remove' on the old templates and finally performed the recommended whonix install procedure.
>
> Later, I was able to switch existing whonix appVMs to whonix-ws-14.
>

> --
>
> Chris Laprise, > tas...@posteo.net <mailto:tas...@posteo.net>
> https://github.com/tasket <https://github.com/tasket>
> https://twitter.com/ttaskett <https://twitter.com/ttaskett>

> PGP: BEE2 20C5 356E 764A 73EB 4AB3 1DC4 D106 F07F 1886
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group.

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to > qubes-users...@googlegroups.com <mailto:qubes-users...@googlegroups.com>> .
> To post to this group, send email to > qubes...@googlegroups.com <mailto:qubes...@googlegroups.com>> .
> To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/4433888d-cbfe-8ea2-2143-1ba4a0dcae0e%40posteo.net <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/4433888d-cbfe-8ea2-2143-1ba4a0dcae0e%40posteo.net>> .
> For more options, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/optout <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>> .
>

[qube...@tutanota.com]

Chris, which guide did you follow when installing the new whonix 14 Template as a "recommended whonix install procedure"? I found these two.

http://dds6qkxpwdeubwucdiaord2xgbbeyds25rbsgr73tbfpqpt4a6vjwsyd.onion/wiki/Qubes/Install# <http://dds6qkxpwdeubwucdiaord2xgbbeyds25rbsgr73tbfpqpt4a6vjwsyd.onion/wiki/Qubes/Install#>

https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/reinstall-template/ <https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/reinstall-template/>

Thanks

Aug 13, 2018, 2:48 AM by tas...@posteo.net:

> On 08/12/2018 05:23 PM, Andrew David Wong wrote:
>

>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA512
>>
>> On 2018-08-12 14:26, 'awokd' via qubes-users wrote:
>>

>>> On Sun, August 12, 2018 6:16 pm, >>> qube...@tutanota.com <mailto:qube...@tutanota.com>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am planning to move from my Whonix 13 to Whonix 14 on Qubes. My
>>>> question is what way it should be easier, based on the Q user
>>>> experiences. What would you propose - upgrade or re-install? Are
>>>> there any known issues which would call for one or other way?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Re-install is usually easier.
>>>
>>>> I have few VMs based on the Whonix template with data and
>>>> settings on it. Will the contents of these VMs remain, or will
>>>> it be destroyed - re-install vs upgrade?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Contents should remain, just set them to the new Whonix template.
>>> Make sure to back up everything first.
>>>
>>
>> The installation guide [1] states:
>>
>> "Re-installation will destroy any existing user data stored in Whonix
>> VMs, unless it is backed up first. To avoid this scenario, it is
>> possible to upgrade Whonix 13 to 14 instead of following these
>> instructions."
>>
>> This was puzzling to me, too, since TemplateVM upgrades usually don't
>> affect user data in TemplateBasedVMs. Could you shed some light on
>> this, Patrick?
>>
>

[Chris Laprise]

On 08/13/2018 07:32 AM, qube...@tutanota.com wrote:
> Chris, which guide did you follow when installing the new whonix 14 Template as a "recommended whonix install procedure"? I found these two.
>
> http://dds6qkxpwdeubwucdiaord2xgbbeyds25rbsgr73tbfpqpt4a6vjwsyd.onion/wiki/Qubes/Install# <http://dds6qkxpwdeubwucdiaord2xgbbeyds25rbsgr73tbfpqpt4a6vjwsyd.onion/wiki/Qubes/Install#>
>
> https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/reinstall-template/ <https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/reinstall-template/>
>
> Thanks

It was a bit confusing, but from the wiki Install page I picked out
these relevant steps for dom0 (Qubes 4.0):

$ sudo qubes-dom0-update qubes-core-admin-addon-whonix
$ sudo qubesctl state.sls qvm.anon-whonix

The second command will start the download and install, although it does
not give much feedback.

Also, there is no need to clone old whonix-gw in the steps I mentioned
earlier; only whonix-ws is needed. Once you have your appVMs switched
over to whonix-ws-14 you can delete the clone.

--

Chris Laprise, tas...@posteo.net
https://github.com/tasket

[sm...@tutamail.com]

I did a fresh install....not a typical template install but managed to get whonix 14 going. No time error anymore! Thanks Whonix/Qubes!!

Here was my experience:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/qubes-users/fwCqxENXguY

[qube...@tutanota.com]

Thanks Chris. If you dont mind, could you please elaborate more on your procedure which worked for you? These two guides are a bit confusing to follow.

What I understand from your text is following:

1) you followed the guide on whonix page (not the one on qubes page)
Q: http://dds6qkxpwdeubwucdiaord2xgbbeyds25rbsgr73tbfpqpt4a6vjwsyd.onion/wiki/Qubes/Install# <http://dds6qkxpwdeubwucdiaord2xgbbeyds25rbsgr73tbfpqpt4a6vjwsyd.onion/wiki/Qubes/Install#>
2) you cloned the whonix-ws(13) and assigned all VMs to the whonix-ws-clone. Than uninstall the original  whonix-ws(13).
3) you didnt touch the whonix-gw(13).
Q: Did the sys-whonix (whch is based on whonix-gw(13)) work without an issue than? Did you install the new whonix-gw(14) as well with the install procedure?
4) did you use any other commands or procedures in the process?

Did I get it right?

Thank you in advance! 


Aug 13, 2018, 2:32 PM by tas...@posteo.net:

> On 08/13/2018 07:32 AM, > qube...@tutanota.com <mailto:qube...@tutanota.com>> wrote:
>
>> Chris, which guide did you follow when installing the new whonix 14 Template as a "recommended whonix install procedure"? I found these two.
>>

>> http://dds6qkxpwdeubwucdiaord2xgbbeyds25rbsgr73tbfpqpt4a6vjwsyd.onion/wiki/Qubes/Install# <http://dds6qkxpwdeubwucdiaord2xgbbeyds25rbsgr73tbfpqpt4a6vjwsyd.onion/wiki/Qubes/Install#>>> <>> http://dds6qkxpwdeubwucdiaord2xgbbeyds25rbsgr73tbfpqpt4a6vjwsyd.onion/wiki/Qubes/Install# <http://dds6qkxpwdeubwucdiaord2xgbbeyds25rbsgr73tbfpqpt4a6vjwsyd.onion/wiki/Qubes/Install#>>> >
>>
>> https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/reinstall-template <https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/reinstall-template/>>> <>> https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/reinstall-template <https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/reinstall-template/>>> >

>>
>> Thanks
>>
>
> It was a bit confusing, but from the wiki Install page I picked out these relevant steps for dom0 (Qubes 4.0):
>
> $ sudo qubes-dom0-update qubes-core-admin-addon-whonix
> $ sudo qubesctl state.sls qvm.anon-whonix
>
> The second command will start the download and install, although it does not give much feedback.
>
> Also, there is no need to clone old whonix-gw in the steps I mentioned earlier; only whonix-ws is needed. Once you have your appVMs switched over to whonix-ws-14 you can delete the clone.
>
> --
>

> Chris Laprise, > tas...@posteo.net <mailto:tas...@posteo.net>
> https://github.com/tasket <https://github.com/tasket>

> https://twitter.com/ttaskett <https://twitter.com/ttaskett>

[Franz]

when I try to uninstall whonix-ws

sudo dnf remove qubes-template-whonix-ws*

I get

No match for argument: qubes-template-whonix-ws*

Error: No packages marked for removal

I followed this guide: https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Qubes/Uninstall

[Patrick Schleizer]

Franz:

> when I try to uninstall whonix-ws
>
> sudo dnf remove qubes-template-whonix-ws*
>
> I get
> No match for argument: qubes-template-whonix-ws*
> Error: No packages marked for removal
>
> I followed this guide: https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Qubes/Uninstall
>

Output of...?

dnf list | grep qubes-template-whonix

[Patrick Schleizer]

Andrew David Wong:

> On 2018-08-12 14:26, 'awokd' via qubes-users wrote:
>> On Sun, August 12, 2018 6:16 pm, qube...@tutanota.com wrote:
>>> I am planning to move from my Whonix 13 to Whonix 14 on Qubes. My
>>> question is what way it should be easier, based on the Q user
>>> experiences. What would you propose - upgrade or re-install? Are
>>> there any known issues which would call for one or other way?
>
>> Re-install is usually easier.
>
>>> I have few VMs based on the Whonix template with data and
>>> settings on it. Will the contents of these VMs remain, or will
>>> it be destroyed - re-install vs upgrade?
>
>> Contents should remain, just set them to the new Whonix template.
>> Make sure to back up everything first.
>
>
> The installation guide [1] states:
>
> "Re-installation will destroy any existing user data stored in Whonix
> VMs, unless it is backed up first. To avoid this scenario, it is
> possible to upgrade Whonix 13 to 14 instead of following these
> instructions."
>
> This was puzzling to me, too, since TemplateVM upgrades usually don't
> affect user data in TemplateBasedVMs. Could you shed some light on
> this, Patrick?
>
> [1] https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Qubes/Install

I see. Indeed it is not clear from the text alone without jumping over
to the reference and other links.

https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Qubes/Install links to
https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Qubes/Uninstall which suggests to get rid of
Whonix entirely (whonix-gw, whonix-ws TemplateVM, sys-whonix,
anon-whonix) before proceeding. Therefore all data gets lost unless
backup exists. Otherwise reinstall using salt would not be possible and
manual reinstall is too difficult (too much room for user error).

This is due to a hard to solve issue with Qubes salt:

https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/4177

Help welcome with these salt issues as well as other salt issues (or any
Whonix issue):

https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22C%3A+Whonix%22

Cheers,
Patrick

[Patrick Schleizer]

Thank you for looking into this!

Chris Laprise:

> It was a bit confusing, but from the wiki Install page I picked out
> these relevant steps for dom0 (Qubes 4.0):
>
> $ sudo qubes-dom0-update qubes-core-admin-addon-whonix
> $ sudo qubesctl state.sls qvm.anon-whonix
>
> The second command will start the download and install, although it does
> not give much feedback.

Created 'add salt download progress indicator' #4215
https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/4215
for it.

> Also, there is no need to clone old whonix-gw in the steps I mentioned
> earlier;

Why not?

> Also, there is no need to clone old whonix-gw in the steps I mentioned
> earlier; only whonix-ws is needed. Once you have your appVMs switched
> over to whonix-ws-14 you can delete the clone.

Why needs whonix-ws to be cloned anyhow if you like to install from
Qubes repository?

whonix-ws should be ignored by salt since the template name changed to
whonix-ws-14?

[Patrick Schleizer]

This is completely untested. Let me know what you think and if this
works for you.

* A backup of all Qubes VMs using the usual Qubes backup mechanism
(independent from below) is advisable anyhow.

* One who mind about their contents could clone their sys-whonix to
sys-whonix-backup and clone their anon-whonix to anon-whonix-backup.
Those who don't mind about their contents probably don't have this issue
anyhow?

* Then delete anon-whonix and sys-whonix.

* Then proceed as per https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Qubes/Install

* Then delete the newly created sys-whonix / anon-whonix.

* Clone sys-whonix-backup to sys-whonix.

* Clone anon-whonix-backup to anon-whonix.

* Finally delete superfluous sys-whonix-backup / anon-whonix-backup.

[Franz]

No output and no error. I forgot to mention I am using 3.2

[Patrick Schleizer]

Franz:

Output of...?

qvm-ls | grep whonix

Well, if didn't have Whonix installed yet/anymore then there is nothing
to uninstall. All ok then.

[qube...@tutanota.com]

Hi Patrick, should one switch the Qubes Tor networking backed normally by the sys-whonix to newly created sys-whonix-backup? It make sense to update/upgrade whonix through Tor.
thx

Aug 14, 2018, 10:10 PM by patrick-ma...@whonix.org:

> This is completely untested. Let me know what you think and if this
> works for you.
>
> * A backup of all Qubes VMs using the usual Qubes backup mechanism
> (independent from below) is advisable anyhow.
>
> * One who mind about their contents could clone their sys-whonix to
> sys-whonix-backup and clone their anon-whonix to anon-whonix-backup.
> Those who don't mind about their contents probably don't have this issue
> anyhow?
>
> * Then delete anon-whonix and sys-whonix.
>

> * Then proceed as per > https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Qubes/Install <https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Qubes/Install>

>
> * Then delete the newly created sys-whonix / anon-whonix.
>
> * Clone sys-whonix-backup to sys-whonix.
>
> * Clone anon-whonix-backup to anon-whonix.
>
> * Finally delete superfluous sys-whonix-backup / anon-whonix-backup.
>

> --
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[Patrick Schleizer]

qube...@tutanota.com:

> Hi Patrick, should one switch the Qubes Tor networking backed normally by the sys-whonix to newly created sys-whonix-backup? It make sense to update/upgrade whonix through Tor.
> thx

If you manage to do that, sure.

[qube...@tutanota.com]

Hi Patrick, I summed up how I understand it. Correct me if I am wrong:

- I back up the whonix(13) VMs of choice
- I clone the sys-whonix, anon-whonix, whonix-ws and whonix-gw to -backup (whonix-gw is a base template for the sys whonix, and must be deleted before install procedure too, right?)
- I assign sys-whonix-backup to whonix-gw-backup template; anon-whonix-backup to whonix-ws-backup template, so they dont suffer the deletion of the whonix-13 templates
- delete the anon-whonix and sys-whonix VMs
- detele whonix-ws and whonix-gw templates
- [user@dom0 ~]$ sudo qubesctl state.sls qvm.anon-whonix
- if error appears: 
[user@dom0 ~]$ sudo qubes-dom0-update --enablerepo=qubes-dom0-current-testing qubes-mgmt-salt-dom0-virtual-machines
-if needed, edit the /etc/yum.repos.d/qubes-templates.repo as per guide
-  clone the -backup VMs to its original names like sys-whonix-backup to sys-whonix, and anon-whonix-backup to anon-whonix
- assign new renamed sys-whonix to whonix-gw(14) and anon-whonix to whonix-ws(14) templates
- delete anon-whonix-backup, sys-whonix-backup, whonix-ws-backup, whonix-gw-backup

Do I get it right?
Thank you
 

Aug 16, 2018, 12:57 PM by qube...@tutanota.com <mailto:qube...@tutanota.com>:c

> Hi Patrick, should one switch the Qubes Tor networking backed normally by the sys-whonix to newly created sys-whonix-backup? It make sense to update/upgrade whonix through Tor.
> thx
>

> Aug 14, 2018, 10:10 PM by > patrick-ma...@whonix.org <mailto:patrick-ma...@whonix.org>> :

[awokd]

On Thu, August 16, 2018 10:57 am, qube...@tutanota.com wrote:
> Hi Patrick, should one switch the Qubes Tor networking backed normally by
> the sys-whonix to newly created sys-whonix-backup? It make sense to
> update/upgrade whonix through Tor. thx

That's how I did mine too.

[awokd]

On Thu, August 16, 2018 11:28 am, qube...@tutanota.com wrote:
> Hi Patrick, I summed up how I understand it. Correct me if I am wrong:
>
>
> - I back up the whonix(13) VMs of choice
> - I clone the sys-whonix, anon-whonix, whonix-ws and whonix-gw to -backup
> (whonix-gw is a base template for the sys whonix, and must be deleted
> before install procedure too, right?) - I assign sys-whonix-backup to
> whonix-gw-backup template; anon-whonix-backup to whonix-ws-backup
> template, so they dont suffer the deletion of the whonix-13 templates -
> delete the anon-whonix and sys-whonix VMs - detele whonix-ws and whonix-gw
> templates - [user@dom0 ~]$ sudo qubesctl state.sls qvm.anon-whonix
> - if error appears: 
> [user@dom0 ~]$ sudo qubes-dom0-update
> --enablerepo=qubes-dom0-current-testing
> qubes-mgmt-salt-dom0-virtual-machines -if needed, edit the
> /etc/yum.repos.d/qubes-templates.repo as per guide
> -  clone the -backup VMs to its original names like sys-whonix-backup to
> sys-whonix, and anon-whonix-backup to anon-whonix

Instead of cloning these back, I would use qvm-copy to copy files you want
to keep.

> - assign new renamed
> sys-whonix to whonix-gw(14) and anon-whonix to whonix-ws(14) templates

New ones should already have the 14 templates assigned.

> - delete anon-whonix-backup, sys-whonix-backup, whonix-ws-backup,
> whonix-gw-backup

Rest looked right to me.

[John S.Recdep]

On 08/12/2018 08:16 AM,

https://github.com/Qubes-Community/Contents/blob/master/docs/misc/iaq.md#manually-install-whonix-14-templates


worked for me, I'd call it a new install not a "re-install"

[qube...@tutanota.com]

Thank you mate :)


Aug 17, 2018, 2:41 PM by qubes...@googlegroups.com:

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