Windows and Root Path ("/") - Should we do this?
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Rob Reynolds
Jul 1, 2014, 3:28:22 PM7/1/14
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Context,
Awhile ago I thought it might be a good idea to allow for some more consistency in manifests where you would not need to specify the drive letter if you were going to the system drive on windows (usually c: as in c:/).
This is encapsulated in PUP-855[1].
This would allow for the ability to specify paths in somewhat the same way as they are specified on other systems, with the knowledge that on Windows, the "/" on the front of the path ("/somepath/bob") would actually be translated to SYSTEMDRIVE, most times c:/ ("c:/somepath/bob").
There is concern that this is non-deterministic and could possibly be a problem, but this could potentially be useful for most folks.
Thoughts? Feedback?
--
Rob Reynolds
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Paul Stack
Jul 2, 2014, 6:45:49 AM7/2/14
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Would this help with rspec puppet errors on Windows?
If so, then id be all for it :)
P.
David Schmitt
Jul 2, 2014, 8:49:06 AM7/2/14
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Hi Rob,
The alternative would be to provide many of the well-known paths on
windows as facts.
file { "${::systemdrive}/somepath/bob": ... }
Not an obvious improvement.
A different question: is %PROGRAMFILES% always on %SYSTEMDRIVE% and
will people tend to write
file { "/Program Files/...": }
file { "/Windows/...": }
expecting it to work?
So I'm leaning more on the side of requiring explicit paths and against
magic.
Regards, David
On 2014-07-01 21:28, Rob Reynolds wrote:
> Context,
> Awhile ago I thought it might be a good idea to allow for some more
> consistency in manifests where you would not need to specify the
> drive
> letter if you were going to the system drive on windows (usually c:
> as
> in c:/).
>
> This is encapsulated in PUP-855[1].
>
> This would allow for the ability to specify paths in somewhat the
> same
> way as they are specified on other systems, with the knowledge that
> on
> Windows, the "/" on the front of the path ("/somepath/bob") would
> actually be translated to SYSTEMDRIVE, most times c:/
> ("c:/somepath/bob").
>
> There is concern that this is non-deterministic and could possibly be
> a problem, but this could potentially be useful for most folks.
>
> Thoughts? Feedback?
>
> [1] https://tickets.puppetlabs.com/browse/PUP-855 [1]
>
> _Register by July 31st to take advantage of the Early Bird discount
> [2] __--__save $249!_
>
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> [4].
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout [5].
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://tickets.puppetlabs.com/browse/PUP-855
> [2] https://puppetconf2014.eventbrite.com/?discount=EarlyBird
> [3] mailto:puppet-dev+...@googlegroups.com
> [4]
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/puppet-dev/CAMJiBK6YGz42hFL3JJ%2B%3D4nXriZ69ZcPYo1dQA6znpfxCU%2BRG5w%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> [5] https://groups.google.com/d/optout
The alternative would be to provide many of the well-known paths on
windows as facts.
file { "${::systemdrive}/somepath/bob": ... }
Not an obvious improvement.
A different question: is %PROGRAMFILES% always on %SYSTEMDRIVE% and
will people tend to write
file { "/Program Files/...": }
file { "/Windows/...": }
expecting it to work?
So I'm leaning more on the side of requiring explicit paths and against
magic.
Regards, David
On 2014-07-01 21:28, Rob Reynolds wrote:
> Context,
> Awhile ago I thought it might be a good idea to allow for some more
> consistency in manifests where you would not need to specify the
> drive
> letter if you were going to the system drive on windows (usually c:
> as
> in c:/).
>
> This is encapsulated in PUP-855[1].
>
> This would allow for the ability to specify paths in somewhat the
> same
> way as they are specified on other systems, with the knowledge that
> on
> Windows, the "/" on the front of the path ("/somepath/bob") would
> actually be translated to SYSTEMDRIVE, most times c:/
> ("c:/somepath/bob").
>
> There is concern that this is non-deterministic and could possibly be
> a problem, but this could potentially be useful for most folks.
>
> Thoughts? Feedback?
>
>
> --
>
> Rob Reynolds
>
> Developer, Puppet Labs
>
> JOIN US AT , SEPTEMBER 20-24 IN SAN FRANCISCO
> --
>
> Rob Reynolds
>
> Developer, Puppet Labs
>
>
> _Register by July 31st to take advantage of the Early Bird discount
> [2] __--__save $249!_
>
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> [4].
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout [5].
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://tickets.puppetlabs.com/browse/PUP-855
> [2] https://puppetconf2014.eventbrite.com/?discount=EarlyBird
> [3] mailto:puppet-dev+...@googlegroups.com
> [4]
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Erik Dalén
Jul 2, 2014, 8:52:58 AM7/2/14
to Puppet Developers
That has the added benefit of also working correctly on localized versions of windows where they changed "Program Files" to something completely different locale dependent :(
send an email to puppet-dev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com [3].
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout [5].
Links:
------
[1] https://tickets.puppetlabs.com/browse/PUP-855
[2] https://puppetconf2014.eventbrite.com/?discount=EarlyBird
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Erik Dalén
Rob Reynolds
Jul 2, 2014, 2:15:59 PM7/2/14
to puppe...@googlegroups.com
On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 7:49 AM, David Schmitt <da...@dasz.at> wrote:
Hi Rob,
The alternative would be to provide many of the well-known paths on windows as facts.
file { "${::systemdrive}/somepath/bob": ... }
Not an obvious improvement.
A different question: is %PROGRAMFILES% always on %SYSTEMDRIVE% and will people tend to write
file { "/Program Files/...": }
file { "/Windows/...": }
expecting it to work?
It's not and that's what this discussion is about. This is what makes it non-deterministic. And makes it possibly an undesirable change.
The big question is how often do folks usually move things from the default system drive with how often would those same folks fall into the category of using '/Program Files' and expecting it to work?
send an email to puppet-dev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com [3].
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/puppet-dev/CAMJiBK6YGz42hFL3JJ%2B%3D4nXriZ69ZcPYo1dQA6znpfxCU%2BRG5w%40mail.gmail.com
To view this discussion on the web visit
[4].
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout [5].
Links:
------
[1] https://tickets.puppetlabs.com/browse/PUP-855
[2] https://puppetconf2014.eventbrite.com/?discount=EarlyBird
[3] mailto:puppet-dev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
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Rob Reynolds
Developer, Puppet Labs
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David Schmitt
Jul 3, 2014, 3:25:09 AM7/3/14
to puppe...@googlegroups.com
On 2014-07-02 20:15, Rob Reynolds wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 7:49 AM, David Schmitt <da...@dasz.at [13]>
opinionated-module-author-hat on that abbreviating ${::systemdrive} to
slash-at-the-beginning-of-a-path is a feature that I wouldn't touch with
a long stick.
Besides the implicit-magic argument, I posit this snippet from one of
my (admittedly linux) modules:
https://github.com/DavidS/dasz-configuration/blob/master/modules/hosting/manifests/customer.pp#L122
all paths there are based on some $base_dir which is a parameter to
this type. This is a common pattern for me to reduce repetitiveness and
enable reuse in different scenarios.
Considering use cases:
* Many files on $systemdrive are within well-known directories. Those
have their own envvar/fact that should be preferred.
* a "custom" installation of something. Can be DRY'ed[1] by using
$base_dir and/or requires (external) parametrization anyways.
* fiddle in some "foreign"/third-party directory on $systemdrive.
Already getting into thin-ice territory, arguments from previous point
apply.
but then I've yet to use puppet on windows for more than the most basic
things, so I might be missing important use cases that just haven't
surfaced over here yet.
Regards, David
[1] http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DontRepeatYourself
>> So Im leaning more on the side of requiring explicit paths and
>>> [4].
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout [4]
>>> [5].
>>>
>>> Links:
>>> ------
>>> [1] https://tickets.puppetlabs.com/browse/PUP-855 [5]
>>> [2] https://puppetconf2014.eventbrite.com/?discount=EarlyBird [6]
>>> [3] mailto:puppet-dev+...@googlegroups.com [7]
>>> [4]
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/puppet-dev/CAMJiBK6YGz42hFL3JJ%2B%3D4nXriZ69ZcPYo1dQA6znpfxCU%2BRG5w%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
>>> [8]
>>> [5] https://groups.google.com/d/optout [9]
>> [11].
>>
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout [12].
> [16].
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout [17].
> [2] mailto:puppet-dev%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> [3]
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/puppet-dev/CAMJiBK6YGz42hFL3JJ%2B%3D4nXriZ69ZcPYo1dQA6znpfxCU%2BRG5w%40mail.gmail.com
> [4] https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> [5] https://tickets.puppetlabs.com/browse/PUP-855
> [6] https://puppetconf2014.eventbrite.com/?discount=EarlyBird
> [7] mailto:puppet-dev%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> [8]
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/puppet-dev/CAMJiBK6YGz42hFL3JJ%2B%3D4nXriZ69ZcPYo1dQA6znpfxCU%2BRG5w%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
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> [11]
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> [12] https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> [13] mailto:da...@dasz.at
> [14] https://puppetconf2014.eventbrite.com/?discount=EarlyBird
> [15] mailto:puppet-dev+...@googlegroups.com
> [16]
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> [17] https://groups.google.com/d/optout
> On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 7:49 AM, David Schmitt <da...@dasz.at [13]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Rob,
>>
>> The alternative would be to provide many of the well-known paths on
>> windows as facts.
>>
>> file { "${::systemdrive}/somepath/bob": ... }
>>
>> Not an obvious improvement.
>>
>> A different question: is %PROGRAMFILES% always on %SYSTEMDRIVE% and
>> will people tend to write
>>
>> file { "/Program Files/...": }
>> file { "/Windows/...": }
>>
>> expecting it to work?
>
> Its not and thats what this discussion is about. This is what makes
>
>> Hi Rob,
>>
>> The alternative would be to provide many of the well-known paths on
>> windows as facts.
>>
>> file { "${::systemdrive}/somepath/bob": ... }
>>
>> Not an obvious improvement.
>>
>> A different question: is %PROGRAMFILES% always on %SYSTEMDRIVE% and
>> will people tend to write
>>
>> file { "/Program Files/...": }
>> file { "/Windows/...": }
>>
>> expecting it to work?
>
> it
> non-deterministic. And makes it possibly an undesirable change.
>
> The big question is how often do folks usually move things from the
> default system drive with how often would those same folks fall into
> the category of using /Program Files and expecting it to work?
After this reframe of the question, I can answer with my
> non-deterministic. And makes it possibly an undesirable change.
>
> The big question is how often do folks usually move things from the
> default system drive with how often would those same folks fall into
> the category of using /Program Files and expecting it to work?
opinionated-module-author-hat on that abbreviating ${::systemdrive} to
slash-at-the-beginning-of-a-path is a feature that I wouldn't touch with
a long stick.
Besides the implicit-magic argument, I posit this snippet from one of
my (admittedly linux) modules:
https://github.com/DavidS/dasz-configuration/blob/master/modules/hosting/manifests/customer.pp#L122
all paths there are based on some $base_dir which is a parameter to
this type. This is a common pattern for me to reduce repetitiveness and
enable reuse in different scenarios.
Considering use cases:
* Many files on $systemdrive are within well-known directories. Those
have their own envvar/fact that should be preferred.
* a "custom" installation of something. Can be DRY'ed[1] by using
$base_dir and/or requires (external) parametrization anyways.
* fiddle in some "foreign"/third-party directory on $systemdrive.
Already getting into thin-ice territory, arguments from previous point
apply.
but then I've yet to use puppet on windows for more than the most basic
things, so I might be missing important use cases that just haven't
surfaced over here yet.
Regards, David
[1] http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DontRepeatYourself
>> So Im leaning more on the side of requiring explicit paths and
>> against magic.
>>
>> Regards, David
>>
>> On 2014-07-01 21:28, Rob Reynolds wrote:
>>
>>> Context,
>>> Awhile ago I thought it might be a good idea to allow for some
>>> more
>>> consistency in manifests where you would not need to specify the
>>> drive
>>> letter if you were going to the system drive on windows (usually
>>> c: as
>>> in c:/).
>>>
>>> This is encapsulated in PUP-855[1].
>>>
>>> This would allow for the ability to specify paths in somewhat the
>>> same
>>> way as they are specified on other systems, with the knowledge
>>> that on
>>> Windows, the "/" on the front of the path ("/somepath/bob") would
>>> actually be translated to SYSTEMDRIVE, most times c:/
>>> ("c:/somepath/bob").
>>>
>>> There is concern that this is non-deterministic and could
>>> possibly be
>>> a problem, but this could potentially be useful for most folks.
>>>
>>> Thoughts? Feedback?
>>>
>>> [1] https://tickets.puppetlabs.com/browse/PUP-855 [1] [1]
>>
>> Regards, David
>>
>> On 2014-07-01 21:28, Rob Reynolds wrote:
>>
>>> Context,
>>> Awhile ago I thought it might be a good idea to allow for some
>>> more
>>> consistency in manifests where you would not need to specify the
>>> drive
>>> letter if you were going to the system drive on windows (usually
>>> c: as
>>> in c:/).
>>>
>>> This is encapsulated in PUP-855[1].
>>>
>>> This would allow for the ability to specify paths in somewhat the
>>> same
>>> way as they are specified on other systems, with the knowledge
>>> that on
>>> Windows, the "/" on the front of the path ("/somepath/bob") would
>>> actually be translated to SYSTEMDRIVE, most times c:/
>>> ("c:/somepath/bob").
>>>
>>> There is concern that this is non-deterministic and could
>>> possibly be
>>> a problem, but this could potentially be useful for most folks.
>>>
>>> Thoughts? Feedback?
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Rob Reynolds
>>>
>>> Developer, Puppet Labs
>>>
>>> JOIN US AT , SEPTEMBER 20-24 IN SAN FRANCISCO
>>>
>>> _Register by July 31st to take advantage of the Early Bird
>>> discount
>>> [2] __--__save $249!_
>>>
>>> --
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>>> Google
>>> Groups "Puppet Developers" group.
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>>> --
>>>
>>> Rob Reynolds
>>>
>>> Developer, Puppet Labs
>>>
>>> JOIN US AT , SEPTEMBER 20-24 IN SAN FRANCISCO
>>>
>>> _Register by July 31st to take advantage of the Early Bird
>>> discount
>>> [2] __--__save $249!_
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>>>
>>
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>>> [3]
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/puppet-dev/CAMJiBK6YGz42hFL3JJ%2B%3D4nXriZ69ZcPYo1dQA6znpfxCU%2BRG5w%40mail.gmail.com
>>> [4].
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout [4]
>>> [5].
>>>
>>> Links:
>>> ------
>>> [1] https://tickets.puppetlabs.com/browse/PUP-855 [5]
>>> [2] https://puppetconf2014.eventbrite.com/?discount=EarlyBird [6]
>>> [3] mailto:puppet-dev+...@googlegroups.com [7]
>>> [4]
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/puppet-dev/CAMJiBK6YGz42hFL3JJ%2B%3D4nXriZ69ZcPYo1dQA6znpfxCU%2BRG5w%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
>>> [8]
>>> [5] https://groups.google.com/d/optout [9]
>>
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>> [11].
>>
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>
> --
>
> Rob Reynolds
>
> Developer, Puppet Labs
>
> JOIN US AT , SEPTEMBER 20-24 IN SAN FRANCISCO
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> _Register by July 31st to take advantage of the Early Bird discount
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> Rob Reynolds
>
> Developer, Puppet Labs
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> JOIN US AT , SEPTEMBER 20-24 IN SAN FRANCISCO
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Rob Reynolds
Jul 3, 2014, 10:59:55 AM7/3/14
to puppe...@googlegroups.com
No, I think you are onto something. For external modules it wouldn't be a good idea. But interestingly enough, before reading this I sort of came to the same conclusion. https://tickets.puppetlabs.com/browse/PUP-855?focusedCommentId=79712&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-79712 so glad to see that it is already a pattern. :)
I'll update my comment to reflect your notes here.
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[4].
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[5].
Links:
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[2] https://puppetconf2014.eventbrite.com/?discount=EarlyBird [6]
[8]
[5] https://groups.google.com/d/optout [9]
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Rob Reynolds
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David Schmitt
Jul 3, 2014, 4:01:51 PM7/3/14
to puppe...@googlegroups.com
On 2014-07-03 16:59, Rob Reynolds wrote:
> but then I've yet to use puppet on windows for more than the most
> basic things, so I might be missing important use cases that just
> haven't surfaced over here yet.
>
>
> No, I think you are onto something. For external modules it wouldn't
> be a good idea. But interestingly enough, before reading this I sort
> of came to the same conclusion.
> https://tickets.puppetlabs.com/browse/PUP-855?focusedCommentId=79712&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-79712
> so glad to see that it is already a pattern. :)
>
> I'll update my comment to reflect your notes here.
Regarding
> but then I've yet to use puppet on windows for more than the most
> basic things, so I might be missing important use cases that just
> haven't surfaced over here yet.
>
>
> No, I think you are onto something. For external modules it wouldn't
> be a good idea. But interestingly enough, before reading this I sort
> of came to the same conclusion.
> https://tickets.puppetlabs.com/browse/PUP-855?focusedCommentId=79712&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-79712
> so glad to see that it is already a pattern. :)
>
> I'll update my comment to reflect your notes here.
> You can't create any fact that is going to allow you to set the path
> like so "/temp/somedirectory" and use it across both windows and
> *nix. Or can you?
> https://tickets.puppetlabs.com/browse/PUP-855?focusedCommentId=79712&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-79712
$::systemdrive is empty on non-windows nodes, so "${::systemdrive}/tmp"
would "always" be a "valid" path.
My developer soul just died a little bit saying that.
Regards, David
Rob Reynolds
Jul 3, 2014, 4:04:22 PM7/3/14
to puppe...@googlegroups.com
Unless someone defines it as a custom fact :(
Most likely they wouldn't, so that would less branching.
Regards, David
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David Schmitt
Jul 4, 2014, 4:06:04 PM7/4/14
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On 2014-07-03 22:04, Rob Reynolds wrote:
> Regarding
>
> You can't create any fact that is going to allow you to set the path
> like so "/temp/somedirectory" and use it across both windows and
> *nix. Or can you?
> https://tickets.puppetlabs.__com/browse/PUP-855?__focusedCommentId=79712&page=__com.atlassian.jira.plugin.__system.issuetabpanels:comment-__tabpanel#comment-79712
> Regarding
>
> You can't create any fact that is going to allow you to set the path
> like so "/temp/somedirectory" and use it across both windows and
> *nix. Or can you?
> <https://tickets.puppetlabs.com/browse/PUP-855?focusedCommentId=79712&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-79712>
>
>
> $::systemdrive is empty on non-windows nodes, so "${::systemdrive}/tmp"
> would "always" be a "valid" path.
>
> My developer soul just died a little bit saying that.
>
>
> Unless someone defines it as a custom fact :(
> Most likely they wouldn't, so that would less branching.
There is a special place where people who redefine core facts should go.
>
>
> $::systemdrive is empty on non-windows nodes, so "${::systemdrive}/tmp"
> would "always" be a "valid" path.
>
> My developer soul just died a little bit saying that.
>
>
> Unless someone defines it as a custom fact :(
> Most likely they wouldn't, so that would less branching.
Regards, David
Rob Reynolds
Jul 17, 2014, 8:23:46 PM7/17/14
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So based on the conversation here, there is already an acceptable pattern for defining root path that can be converted for Windows/non-Windows systems that is deterministic and wouldn't suffer from possible inexperience with Windows resources.
Based on that, I don't think this is something we should move forward with.
Regards, David
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