Kunrei vs Hepburn
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Oaden, Arthur
Apr 15, 2021, 3:32:55 AM4/15/21
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Dear all, I thought this might be a nice scholarly forum to address this question.
Is there ever, in your view, a good place for Kunrei vs. Hepburn romanization in scholarly texts?
It is typically up to the author, but I am curious as to the views on this group.
Also, in the kind of essay that might, be written by a Japanese Junior High Student in English, what kind of romanization would be preferred there (in yout views)?
I am hoping to get some idea of the place of Kunrei vs Hepburn in regular writing. There seems to be a lot of competing preferences in Japanese education on what type is better for use in English writing, and I am curious as to whether topics of Japanese culture
or history would in any way make a difference here for choice of romanization.
From my understanding, the official view is always that Hepburn is preferred for English. Kunrei is only for Japanese typing or language education contexts.
Sincere thanks,
Arthur Oaden
JET Program, Niigata City
Alexander Vovin
Apr 15, 2021, 7:22:20 AM4/15/21
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Well, in linguistics there is a split: kunrei (or its variants) is used for language data, while Hepburn is reserved for proper nouns and bibliographies. And the latter rapidly become obsolete, because more and more journals these days require the use of the original CJK scripts + translation, but no transcription.
Hope this helps,
Alexander Vovin
Membre élu d'Academia Europaea
Directeur d'études, linguistique historique du Japon, de la Corée et de l'Asie centrale
Membre associé de CENTRE DE RECHERCHES SUR LE JAPON
Laureate of 2015 Japanese Institute for Humanities Prize for a Foreign Scholar
Editor-in-chief, series Languages of Asia, Brill
Co-editor, of International Journal of Eurasian Linguistics, Brill
PI of the ERC Advanced Project, AN ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE JAPONIC LANGUAGES
105 Blvd Raspail, 75006 Parishttps://ehess.academia.edu/AlexanderVovin
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Howell, David L
Apr 15, 2021, 12:44:02 PM4/15/21
to 'Daniel Botsman' via PMJS: Listserve
Journals have their own style sheets, so it’s not up to authors at all. All the major English-language journals I know that publish on history, literature, religion, and other humanities fields (aside from linguistics) use Modified Hepburn, basically following
the example of Kenkyusha’s Japanese-English dictionary. I suppose book publishers have more flexibility, but I have never seen a book published in the US or other Anglophone countries that uses anything other than Modified Hepburn. There is a lot of transcription
in the fields I read (of words and short phrases, mostly).
David L. Howell
Robert K. and Dale J. Weary Professor of Japanese History
Chair, Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations
Professor of History
Robert K. and Dale J. Weary Professor of Japanese History
Chair, Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations
Professor of History
Editor, Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies
Harvard University
Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations
2 Divinity Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02138
dho...@fas.harvard.edu
Harvard University
Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations
2 Divinity Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02138
dho...@fas.harvard.edu
Oaden, Arthur
Apr 16, 2021, 12:27:26 AM4/16/21
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Dear Professor Vovin, that is an interesting point. Thanks! Arthur Oaden
S. Tsumura
Apr 16, 2021, 4:24:21 AM4/16/21
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Arthur,
A current junior high English textbook (New Horizon English Course) uses Hepburn for Japanese names and terms in the text, as “Satoshi,” “Takashi,” “Mt. Fuji,” “Matsue,” “judo,” though it does not distinguish long vowels (“Ito”, “tofu,” “Tokyo”). Also it uses “m” in “tempura.” The romanization chart at the end of the book specifies that it is Hepburn, and adds that “ン” is “m” before p,b, and m.
If the purpose of learning English is for communication to English speakers, kunrei is not really helpful.
Hope this helps.
Susan Tsumura
A current junior high English textbook (New Horizon English Course) uses Hepburn for Japanese names and terms in the text, as “Satoshi,” “Takashi,” “Mt. Fuji,” “Matsue,” “judo,” though it does not distinguish long vowels (“Ito”, “tofu,” “Tokyo”). Also it uses “m” in “tempura.” The romanization chart at the end of the book specifies that it is Hepburn, and adds that “ン” is “m” before p,b, and m.
If the purpose of learning English is for communication to English speakers, kunrei is not really helpful.
Hope this helps.
Susan Tsumura
Michael Pye
Apr 16, 2021, 4:26:01 AM4/16/21
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Dear Arthur, and fellow-sufferers over romaji !
Like you I hit this problem as soon as I first went to stay in Japan
(1961), also as a teacher. (And pupils need guidance.)
I learned that the Hepburn-shiki was to be for international use, and
(counter-intuitively) that the kunreishiki was taught in schools (I
had kokugo textbooks).This (for Japan) typical disjunction had the
result that very few people in Japan are able to use either system
correctly and often screw up their own names.
I suggest you encourage pupils to use Hepburn in their essays, on the
grounds that internationalism is to be cherished. They will probably
fall for that.
Hepburn is also dominant because of international dictrionaries, and
schoolboys might one day want to look things up in a wa-ei or a
wa-doku! Pass round a dictionary in the classroom to illustrate!
It was always a relief that JR uses Hepburn very reliably, and that
meant that all their station signs are a very good for dozily learning
kanji readings. Private railways are not always so reliable in
romanisation...
Another classsroom gimmick: Get them all (nearly fifty in class?) to
write down the name of the railway station nearest to them in (a)
Hepburn) and (b) kunreishiki.
Anyway, since it's government policy to use the Hepburn system for
"international" purposes foreigners should (it seems to me) honour
that and do it correctly. Unfortunately there are some snags. What is
actually recommended is "modified" Hepburn, but there is apparently no
definitive agreement about exactly what "modified" means. Different
government ministries appear to have taken slightly different
decisions over that (!). But for editorial work, the matter can be
tidied up and decisions taken.
Kunreishiki should be left alone for general international purposes,
imho, even if specialists in linguististics use it for the benefit of
any of their readers who can't read kana. It only gets Japanese people
into a muddle. So when it comes to schoolboys writing their names, do
please encourage them to learn the Hepburn version. (and without an h
on the end of Ito and Sato - sorry no long signs in e-mail).
The computer-inputting method is by no means pure kunreishiki, though
related. The belief that it provides a satisfactory transcription
method has led to even worse stuff appearing, e.g. nihonngo ! There
are also inconsistencies over the use of the letter "y".
Of course, most people inn the world don't feel much need to
transcribe their own language into some other sukuripto ! Hence one
cannot expect too much attention to this. At least inn Japanese we get
katakana for foreign names and words, unlike the poor Chinese who have
to transliterate everything into kanji...! I mean (this is the
pre-modern bit) in the reception of Buddhism why didn't they just
learn phonetic Indian script and include it in their texts? Of course,
we wouldn't have then got Stanislas Julien's fascinating Les Noms
Sanyerits (M DCCC LXI).
Best wishes
Michael Pye
Zitat von "Oaden, Arthur" <oad...@buckeyemail.osu.edu>:
> Dear Professor Vovin, that is an interesting point. Thanks! Arthur Oaden
>
.................................................................................................................
Professor of the Study of Religions (em.), University of Marburg,
GermanyAt least
Like you I hit this problem as soon as I first went to stay in Japan
(1961), also as a teacher. (And pupils need guidance.)
I learned that the Hepburn-shiki was to be for international use, and
(counter-intuitively) that the kunreishiki was taught in schools (I
had kokugo textbooks).This (for Japan) typical disjunction had the
result that very few people in Japan are able to use either system
correctly and often screw up their own names.
I suggest you encourage pupils to use Hepburn in their essays, on the
grounds that internationalism is to be cherished. They will probably
fall for that.
Hepburn is also dominant because of international dictrionaries, and
schoolboys might one day want to look things up in a wa-ei or a
wa-doku! Pass round a dictionary in the classroom to illustrate!
It was always a relief that JR uses Hepburn very reliably, and that
meant that all their station signs are a very good for dozily learning
kanji readings. Private railways are not always so reliable in
romanisation...
Another classsroom gimmick: Get them all (nearly fifty in class?) to
write down the name of the railway station nearest to them in (a)
Hepburn) and (b) kunreishiki.
Anyway, since it's government policy to use the Hepburn system for
"international" purposes foreigners should (it seems to me) honour
that and do it correctly. Unfortunately there are some snags. What is
actually recommended is "modified" Hepburn, but there is apparently no
definitive agreement about exactly what "modified" means. Different
government ministries appear to have taken slightly different
decisions over that (!). But for editorial work, the matter can be
tidied up and decisions taken.
Kunreishiki should be left alone for general international purposes,
imho, even if specialists in linguististics use it for the benefit of
any of their readers who can't read kana. It only gets Japanese people
into a muddle. So when it comes to schoolboys writing their names, do
please encourage them to learn the Hepburn version. (and without an h
on the end of Ito and Sato - sorry no long signs in e-mail).
The computer-inputting method is by no means pure kunreishiki, though
related. The belief that it provides a satisfactory transcription
method has led to even worse stuff appearing, e.g. nihonngo ! There
are also inconsistencies over the use of the letter "y".
Of course, most people inn the world don't feel much need to
transcribe their own language into some other sukuripto ! Hence one
cannot expect too much attention to this. At least inn Japanese we get
katakana for foreign names and words, unlike the poor Chinese who have
to transliterate everything into kanji...! I mean (this is the
pre-modern bit) in the reception of Buddhism why didn't they just
learn phonetic Indian script and include it in their texts? Of course,
we wouldn't have then got Stanislas Julien's fascinating Les Noms
Sanyerits (M DCCC LXI).
Best wishes
Michael Pye
Zitat von "Oaden, Arthur" <oad...@buckeyemail.osu.edu>:
> Dear Professor Vovin, that is an interesting point. Thanks! Arthur Oaden
>
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.................................................................................................................
Professor of the Study of Religions (em.), University of Marburg,
GermanyAt least
Sharon Domier
Apr 18, 2021, 12:55:35 PM4/18/21
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I can’t believe that it is almost 20 years since the 5th edition of the Kenkyusha’s Japanese English Dictionary was published in print (2003). In library sessions I always talked with the Japanese studies majors about romanization and how the library catalog matches the Kenkyusha dictionary and that modified Hepburn was the standard for most Japanese studies publications in English. Few undergrad students knew the “Green Goddess” but understood that their professors considered it a must have. Imagine my surprise when the 5th edition switched to kana entries instead of romanized. There went that easy check.
The Japanese government uses kunreishiki. Japanese language teachers (and some linguists) who were trained in Jordan use that method. Young people use what I can word processing romanization (adding the u and extra vowels). I see so much variation that I really want students to understand how to code switch as necessary.
Back to the original question - I would expect a Japanese student writing in Japan to follow the Japanese government's guidelines on romanization, which would be kunreishiki.
Sharon Domier
UMass Amherst
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/0A91D7A1-203E-4C92-B69D-44E5A41E6A67%40fas.harvard.edu.
Alexander Vovin
Apr 18, 2021, 12:55:51 PM4/18/21
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Hi Michael,
The reason for using kunreishiki in linguistics is not illiteracy of linguists😁, but rather the fact that it is phonology-based, while Hepburn is phonetics-based.
Sasha
Alexander Vovin
Membre élu d'Academia Europaea
Directeur d'études, linguistique historique du Japon, de la Corée et de l'Asie centrale
Membre associé de CENTRE DE RECHERCHES SUR LE JAPON
Laureate of 2015 Japanese Institute for Humanities Prize for a Foreign Scholar
Editor-in-chief, series Languages of Asia, Brill
Co-editor, of International Journal of Eurasian Linguistics, Brill
PI of the ERC Advanced Project, AN ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE JAPONIC LANGUAGES
105 Blvd Raspail, 75006 Parishttps://ehess.academia.edu/AlexanderVovin
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/20210416085614.Horde.cosczqcj8-peIQTfpiftgi-%40home.staff.uni-marburg.de.
Philip Brown
Apr 18, 2021, 12:56:17 PM4/18/21
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Just to add a slight twist to Michael's overview, even within a bureaucratic division usage can be different: the agency that is now the Geospatial Information Authority of Japan uses kunrei-shiki was used for topographical maps, and modified Hepburn for geological maps and navigation charts, perhaps reflecting assumptions of use by Japanese vs. an international audience?
Phil
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/20210416085614.Horde.cosczqcj8-peIQTfpiftgi-%40home.staff.uni-marburg.de.
Philip C. Brown, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of Japanese and East Asian History
College of Arts and Sciences
The Ohio State University
246 Dulles Hall, 230 Annie & John Glenn Avenue, Columbus, OH 43210-1234
614-292-0904 Office / 614-292-2282 Fax
brow...@osu.edu
Emeritus Professor of Japanese and East Asian History
College of Arts and Sciences
The Ohio State University
246 Dulles Hall, 230 Annie & John Glenn Avenue, Columbus, OH 43210-1234
614-292-0904 Office / 614-292-2282 Fax
brow...@osu.edu
Michael Pye
Apr 19, 2021, 1:30:37 AM4/19/21
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Dear Alexander Vladimirovich,
Hello!
Of course, you are quite right. And what's the purpose of a
transliteration system? Surely it's to tell us how to pronounce
something! For that reason the Hebon-shiki is as it is, and commands
wide acceptance. Hence the impurities, and publishers' preferences.
Naturally linguistics specialists and phonologists want their own
system for other reasons. You are most welcome.
To Sharon Domier:
You write: "The Japanese government uses kunreishiki. Japanese
You packed a lot into there. But I don't think you're right about
Japanese government policy, unless it has changed a lot. Of course I
may be out of date, being increasingly old, but the last time I looked
(2011, when editing a book called "Beyond Meditation") it turned out
that Japanese "government" policy gets broken down into the policy of
various ministries...! Nevertheless the underlying point is that
Hepburn (modified) should be used in "international contexts" and
kunreishiki is for teaching romaji in schools (for no purpose, as much
in Japanese schools). Such a contradiction of course mirrors the usual
distinction beween foreigners (who need Hepburn) and Japanese (who
know the real thing - kunreishiki - even if they don't need it.)
This is going to be a regular subject-area in the Comprehensive
Institute for the Study of Japanese Logic (which I founded on
retirement but is still in search of benevolent funding).
I'm gratified to hear about Kenkyusha usig kana now, as my old
book The Study of Kanji (first edition in 1971) completely eschewed
the use of romanisation - on educational grounds. (This led to it not
being a best-seller, because people didn't want to bother learning
kana...).
As to keyboard "romaji" I recently got a communication from
Kyoutou about receipt of a yuubinnbutu. (from a person who knows that
I can read Japanese). Now, seriously, what do people think about that!
Enjoy
Michael Pye
Zitat von Alexander Vovin <sasha...@gmail.com>:
> Hi Michael,
> "international" contxts
> Co-editor, of *International Journal of Eurasian Linguistics*, Brill
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pmjs/CAKDAMNQgnUKRV93-dKda7WhO%3DmVY%3D%3D%2BiXW_aXWSNg-Yb2ojqCg%40mail.gmail.com.
Hello!
Of course, you are quite right. And what's the purpose of a
transliteration system? Surely it's to tell us how to pronounce
something! For that reason the Hebon-shiki is as it is, and commands
wide acceptance. Hence the impurities, and publishers' preferences.
Naturally linguistics specialists and phonologists want their own
system for other reasons. You are most welcome.
To Sharon Domier:
You write: "The Japanese government uses kunreishiki. Japanese
language teachers (and some linguists) who were trained in Jordan use
that method. Young people use what I can word processing romanization
(adding the u and extra vowels). I see so much variation that I really
want students to understand how to code switch as necessary. Back to
the original question - I would expect a Japanese student writing in
Japan to follow the Japanese government's guidelines on romanization,
which would be kunreishiki."
ie
that method. Young people use what I can word processing romanization
(adding the u and extra vowels). I see so much variation that I really
want students to understand how to code switch as necessary. Back to
the original question - I would expect a Japanese student writing in
Japan to follow the Japanese government's guidelines on romanization,
which would be kunreishiki."
You packed a lot into there. But I don't think you're right about
Japanese government policy, unless it has changed a lot. Of course I
may be out of date, being increasingly old, but the last time I looked
(2011, when editing a book called "Beyond Meditation") it turned out
that Japanese "government" policy gets broken down into the policy of
various ministries...! Nevertheless the underlying point is that
Hepburn (modified) should be used in "international contexts" and
kunreishiki is for teaching romaji in schools (for no purpose, as much
in Japanese schools). Such a contradiction of course mirrors the usual
distinction beween foreigners (who need Hepburn) and Japanese (who
know the real thing - kunreishiki - even if they don't need it.)
This is going to be a regular subject-area in the Comprehensive
Institute for the Study of Japanese Logic (which I founded on
retirement but is still in search of benevolent funding).
I'm gratified to hear about Kenkyusha usig kana now, as my old
book The Study of Kanji (first edition in 1971) completely eschewed
the use of romanisation - on educational grounds. (This led to it not
being a best-seller, because people didn't want to bother learning
kana...).
As to keyboard "romaji" I recently got a communication from
Kyoutou about receipt of a yuubinnbutu. (from a person who knows that
I can read Japanese). Now, seriously, what do people think about that!
Enjoy
Michael Pye
Zitat von Alexander Vovin <sasha...@gmail.com>:
> Hi Michael,
> "international" contxts
> The reason for using kunreishiki in linguistics is not illiteracy of
> linguists😁, but rather the fact that it is phonology-based, while Hepburn
> is phonetics-based.
>
> Sasha
>
> Alexander Vovin
> Membre élu d'Academia Europaea
> Directeur d'études, linguistique historique du Japon, de la Corée et de
> l'Asie centrale
> ECOLE DES HAUTES ETUDES EN SCIENCES SOCIALES;
> CENTRE DE RECHERCHES LINGUISTIQUES SUR L'ASIE ORIENTALE
> Membre associé de CENTRE DE RECHERCHES SUR LE JAPON
> Laureate of 2015 Japanese Institute for Humanities Prize for a Foreign
> Scholar
> Editor-in-chief, series *Languages of Asia*, Brill
> linguists😁, but rather the fact that it is phonology-based, while Hepburn
> is phonetics-based.
>
> Sasha
>
> Alexander Vovin
> Membre élu d'Academia Europaea
> Directeur d'études, linguistique historique du Japon, de la Corée et de
> l'Asie centrale
> ECOLE DES HAUTES ETUDES EN SCIENCES SOCIALES;
> CENTRE DE RECHERCHES LINGUISTIQUES SUR L'ASIE ORIENTALE
> Membre associé de CENTRE DE RECHERCHES SUR LE JAPON
> Laureate of 2015 Japanese Institute for Humanities Prize for a Foreign
> Scholar
> Co-editor, of *International Journal of Eurasian Linguistics*, Brill
> PI of the ERC Advanced Project, AN ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE JAPONIC
> LANGUAGES
> 105 Blvd Raspail, 75006 Paris
> sasha...@gmail.com <alexand...@ehess.fr>
> LANGUAGES
> 105 Blvd Raspail, 75006 Paris
Arthur Oaden
Apr 19, 2021, 5:54:44 AM4/19/21
to PMJS: Listserv
Thanks all! Interesting to see these comments.
Hepburn does indeed seem best in international contexts, but I can understand the role of Kunrei in linguistics/language education.
Best, Arthur Oaden
Best, Arthur Oaden
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