2:3 Scale VT100 is a Perfect Pairing for PDP-8/I Replica

[Paul Birkel]

https://hackaday.com/2021/03/04/23-scale-vt100-is-a-perfect-pairing-for-pdp-8-i-replica/

 

https://hackaday.io/project/177596-23-scale-vt100-terminal-reproduction

 

Not bad at all!

 

-----

[pbi...@gmail.com]

For the PiDP-11, too :-}.

[Johnny Billquist]

It is very cool. But without a proper keyboard, the usage becomes
somewhat more limited...

Johnny

On 2021-03-04 10:09, Paul Birkel wrote:
> https://hackaday.com/2021/03/04/23-scale-vt100-is-a-perfect-pairing-for-pdp-8-i-replica/
> <https://hackaday.com/2021/03/04/23-scale-vt100-is-a-perfect-pairing-for-pdp-8-i-replica/>
>
> https://hackaday.io/project/177596-23-scale-vt100-terminal-reproduction

> <https://hackaday.io/project/177596-23-scale-vt100-terminal-reproduction>
>
> Not bad at all!
>
> -----
>

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--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

[Cesar Gimenes]

The keyboard is really a problem, I have exactly this keyboard of the project and I hate it.

Oscar it's time to make a terminal to complete the PDP-11 kit :D
With a decent keyboard!

Cesar

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[Tom Wilson]

Yeah, that keyboard doesn't seem like a great choice, but there are others that should work well. I'm currently using a Velocifire keyboard with a YMDK Carbon keycap set. It looks really good in front of my PiDP-11

I like the keyboard, as it it uses good key switches. I don't like the backlighting, though, and so I'm looking at replacing that with something like the Durgod Taurus K320. Wrapped in an enclosure like the one in the article, either should look really good.

Tom Wilson
wils...@gmail.com
(619)940-6311 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/325E7D2C-8F12-4B28-ACF5-1A26CBB34737%40crg.eti.br.

[emt377]

Wouldn't an LA30 have been a better match, chronologically speaking?  ;-)

Just kidding, it's pretty cool.

-----

[Johnny Billquist]

Well. The reason for my "complaint" was that it was missing the numeric
keypad part, and yours is missing that as well.

If you're trying to have something VT100-like for systems back in the
day, you'll realize that a lot of software actually makes special use of
the numeric keypad. Not having it makes it really hard to use many of
those applications.

And a PC style keyboard is far from perfect, as it actually have one key
less than a VT100 keyboard at the numeric keypad part.

Johnny

On 2021-03-04 22:37, Tom Wilson wrote:
> Yeah, that keyboard doesn't seem like a great choice, but there are
> others that should work well. I'm currently using a Velocifire keyboard
> with a YMDK Carbon keycap set. It looks really good in front of my PiDP-11
>

> image.png
>
> I like the keyboard, as it it uses good key switches. I don't like the
> backlighting, though, and so I'm looking at replacing that with
> something like the Durgod Taurus K320. Wrapped in an enclosure like the
> one in the article, either should look really good.
>
>
> Tom Wilson

> wils...@gmail.com <mailto:wils...@gmail.com>

> (619)940-6311
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 1:06 PM Cesar Gimenes <c...@crg.eti.br
> <mailto:c...@crg.eti.br>> wrote:
>
> The keyboard is really a problem, I have exactly this keyboard of
> the project and I hate it.
>
> Oscar it's time to make a terminal to complete the PDP-11 kit :D
> With a decent keyboard!
>
> Cesar
>
> > Em 4 de mar. de 2021, à(s) 09:48, Johnny Billquist

> <b...@softjar.se <mailto:b...@softjar.se>> escreveu:

> >
> > It is very cool. But without a proper keyboard, the usage becomes
> somewhat more limited...
> >
> >  Johnny
> >
> > On 2021-03-04 10:09, Paul Birkel wrote:
> >>
> https://hackaday.com/2021/03/04/23-scale-vt100-is-a-perfect-pairing-for-pdp-8-i-replica/
> <https://hackaday.com/2021/03/04/23-scale-vt100-is-a-perfect-pairing-for-pdp-8-i-replica/>
> <https://hackaday.com/2021/03/04/23-scale-vt100-is-a-perfect-pairing-for-pdp-8-i-replica/
> <https://hackaday.com/2021/03/04/23-scale-vt100-is-a-perfect-pairing-for-pdp-8-i-replica/>>
> >>
> https://hackaday.io/project/177596-23-scale-vt100-terminal-reproduction
> <https://hackaday.io/project/177596-23-scale-vt100-terminal-reproduction>
> <https://hackaday.io/project/177596-23-scale-vt100-terminal-reproduction
> <https://hackaday.io/project/177596-23-scale-vt100-terminal-reproduction>>
> >> Not bad at all!
> >> -----
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> >
> > --
> > Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
> >                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip

> > email: b...@softjar.se <mailto:b...@softjar.se>             ||

> Reading murder books
> > pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
> >
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/621fc859-a14a-f289-d3d0-0489329f5610%40softjar.se>.

>
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[Tom Wilson]

That's incorrect. In fact, the PC-AT keyboard is just a reskin of IBM's terminal keyboard, and that's why we still have Break, Scroll Lock, Pause, and SysRq. Those are holdovers from IBM terminals and are still used by terminal emulators. 

Here's an image of the VT-102 keyboard layout:

In fact, the VT-102 keyboard only has two keys that do not have a direct equivalent on the AT keyboard: Line Feed and Setup.  Line Feed can easily be mapped to another key, such as the right Control key, but that key sequence is really just Control+L, so if one really needs an LF, they can press Control+L to get it.  As to No Scroll - that can be mapped to Pause or to Scroll Lock. Since the function of two keys is software dependent, there's no down side to that mapping. 

Now you might be thinking of the VT220 keyboard, which does have a few extra F keys not present on the AT keyboard. In that case, a Unicomp PC 122 5250 will do the job. 

[Charley Jones]

Been working on it 

Sent from my iPhone Xs!

On Mar 4, 2021, at 4:39 PM, 'emt377' via [PiDP-11] <pid...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



Wouldn't an LA30 have been a better match, chronologically speaking?  ;-)

Just kidding, it's pretty cool.

-----

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[Johnny Billquist]

Uh? Did you not see the "-" and "," at the numeric keyboard of the
VT100, where the PC have a single double sized key labelled "+"?

Which means there is one more key on the VT100 numeric keypad than the
PC keyboard have.

And to make it clear, the keys on the numeric keypad do not necessarily
send the characters that are labelled on the keys. So it's not about
being able to send those characters, but really about the existence of
the keys.

Johnny

On 2021-03-05 04:25, Tom Wilson wrote:
> That's incorrect. In fact, the PC-AT keyboard is just a reskin of IBM's
> terminal keyboard, and that's why we still have Break, Scroll Lock,
> Pause, and SysRq. Those are holdovers from IBM terminals and are still
> used by terminal emulators.
>
> Here's an image of the VT-102 keyboard layout:

> vt102.png
>
> In fact, the VT-102 keyboard only has two keys that do not have a direct
> equivalent on the AT keyboard: Line Feed and Setup.  Line Feed can
> easily be mapped to another key, such as the right Control key, but that
> key sequence is really just Control+L, so if one really needs an LF,
> they can press Control+L to get it.  As to No Scroll - that can be
> mapped to Pause or to Scroll Lock. Since the function of two keys is
> software dependent, there's no down side to that mapping.
>
> Now you might be thinking of the VT220 keyboard, which does have a few
> extra F keys not present on the AT keyboard. In that case, a Unicomp PC
> 122 5250 will do the job.

> > (619)940-6311 <tel:(619)%20940-6311>

> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CALt8mqT2wjv4ALsjGF-JdotPx6wr_c%2BFSUjxwYfEtQJXZNM%2BDA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/CALt8mqT2wjv4ALsjGF-JdotPx6wr_c%2BFSUjxwYfEtQJXZNM%2BDA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
>
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
> || on a psychedelic trip
> email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>

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[Chris Berry]

Agreed - particularly a pain with EDT ☹

That's why I use a Mac extended keyboard __

Chris

On 05/03/2021, 10:32, "pid...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Johnny Billquist" <pid...@googlegroups.com on behalf of b...@softjar.se> wrote:

Uh? Did you not see the "-" and "," at the numeric keyboard of the
VT100, where the PC have a single double sized key labelled "+"?

Which means there is one more key on the VT100 numeric keypad than the
PC keyboard have.

And to make it clear, the keys on the numeric keypad do not necessarily
send the characters that are labelled on the keys. So it's not about
being able to send those characters, but really about the existence of
the keys.

Johnny

7699-4e7b72b35fd9%40softjar.se.

[Warner Losh]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 8:25 PM Tom Wilson <wils...@gmail.com> wrote:

That's incorrect. In fact, the PC-AT keyboard is just a reskin of IBM's terminal keyboard, and that's why we still have Break, Scroll Lock, Pause, and SysRq. Those are holdovers from IBM terminals and are still used by terminal emulators. 

Here's an image of the VT-102 keyboard layout:

In fact, the VT-102 keyboard only has two keys that do not have a direct equivalent on the AT keyboard: Line Feed and Setup.  Line Feed can easily be mapped to another key, such as the right Control key, but that key sequence is really just Control+L, so if one really needs an LF, they can press Control+L to get it.  As to No Scroll - that can be mapped to Pause or to Scroll Lock. Since the function of two keys is software dependent, there's no down side to that mapping. 

LF is Control+J, not Control+L (that's Form Feed).

Warner

 

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[Lars Brinkhoff]

I'm in the process of building one or two of these.  I think it will look great!

To do it justice, I will also have it running real VT100 firmware.

[johntk...@gmail.com]

I will be trying this one..

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4846997

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Making progress with the 3D print.  If you think the proportions are off, it's because the back third is still missing.

The simulator is also getting there.  The 8080 CPU and baseline hardware features (no AVO yet) are in place, and it can run comfortably on a Raspberry Pi 3.

[johntk...@gmail.com]

That looks excellent!

I finished my even more retro print:

[Thomas Niccum]

I just built the 2:3 VT100... looks great!

I will be replacing the keyboard with something better... more to come on that...

Right now I have it stuffed with a RPi Zero W, and it connects, via PUTTY to all 4 of my retro computers very nicely.

[Clem Cole]

Excellent!

ᐧ

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[Ed Groenenberg]

That's neat!

I wonder if it would be possible to use the carcass of a real VT-100 and realise somthing similar with using the original keyboard?

Ed
--
Ik email, dus ik besta &#128518;

--

[Tom Wilson]

This is why I really want a 3D printer... especially if I can get one with a laser for doing acrylic and/or wood builds. I'd love to make a custom terminal housing and set it next to my Altairduino... it would be the perfect retro desk topper. 

Tom Wilson
wils...@gmail.com
(619)940-6311 

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[Thomas Niccum]

I got a Creality Ender 3 Pro a few months ago.  I upgraded it to an XL version (400x400mm print bed) so that I could print the terminal without breaking it into pieces (let's just say I tried that, and the results were not as hoped)...

I also printed an extension to the PiDP11 case so that it's a lot more stable on my shelf.  I see that people on Thingaverse also have model for printing switches, etc.

I have to say I've really enjoyed the 3D printer... It's super slow (The VT100 case took 7+ days of non-stop printing!)  but I've been able to do a lot of fun things.  

A laser cutter would be fun too, but the price on those is substantially higher I believe... 

[michael kostersitz]

This looks very sweet 😊

Congratulations on putting this together.

 

Mike

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Ed Groenenberg
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2021 13:44
To: [PiDP-11]
Subject: Re: [PiDP-11] Re: 2:3 Scale VT100 is a Perfect Pairing for PDP-8/I Replica

 

That's neat!

I wonder if it would be possible to use the carcass of a real VT-100 and realise somthing similar with using the original keyboard?

Ed
--
Ik email, dus ik besta &#128518;

November 17, 2021 9:27 PM, "Thomas Niccum" <tni...@gmail.com> wrote:

I just built the 2:3 VT100... looks great!

I will be replacing the keyboard with something better... more to come on that...

Right now I have it stuffed with a RPi Zero W, and it connects, via PUTTY to all 4 of my retro computers very nicely.

On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 7:58:16 AM UTC-7 johntk...@gmail.com wrote:

That looks excellent!

I finished my even more retro print:

On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 11:12:08 PM UTC-7 lars.br...@gmail.com wrote:

Making progress with the 3D print. If you think the proportions are off, it's because the back third is still missing.

The simulator is also getting there. The 8080 CPU and baseline hardware features (no AVO yet) are in place, and it can run comfortably on a Raspberry Pi 3.

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[D Gillies]

The vt100 was a very nice terminal, but terribly expensive.  At the University of Illinois, they soon standardized on Hazeltine 1500's which knew the full vt100 command set and cost substantially less ...

- Don Gillies