drag feeder with auto peel

[Juha M]

Hi all,

Any thoughts for diy drag pin version? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qJp1j-rdVU

[Jason von Nieda]

I'm very interested in the peeling mechanism. That's exactly what I was hoping to do on a strip feeder design I'm messing with.

I don't see why a drag version of this wouldn't work. Might require quite a bit of force, though.

Jason

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[Anthony Webb]

I'm unclear of how this actually works. Anyone care to elaborate?

Sent from my iPhone

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[David Austin]

On 10 August 2016 at 13:56, Anthony Webb <anthon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm unclear of how this actually works. Anyone care to elaborate?

The cover isn't fully detached from the tape. The pointy
part lifts one edge of the cover and it's folded up.

It's a cool way to address the problem of feeding both
the tape and the cover.

Neato.

David

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/58E36859-509D-4A39-9F61-AE8A4FF41612%40gmail.com.

[SMdude]

Nice! I wonder how much the cover plates are as a spare part?
You could use a drag feeder though the hole on the side where the tape is first loaded by hand.
Hmmm!

[Michael Anton]

I'd sure like a peeler like that for my auto feeders as well.  That would sure simplify the design, if one could figure out an easy way to implement it.

Mike

[SMdude]

Here's some pnp porn using these feeders. Lets play a game, spot the nozzle taking the component from the pocket!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbxgHNw1wlk

Just a measly $200 each finger feeder...
http://feederfinger.com/

[Matt Brocklehurst]

Expensive for what it is... i wonder if they have a patent on it? Probably wouldn't take very long to draw up in CAD?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3AfX9UE86Q

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[Matt Brocklehurst]

Do we think we could 3d print a version of this?

[SMdude]

http://www.google.com/patents/US20140318713

[Matt Brocklehurst]

Sigh! Although if an individual implements a patent idea for there own use (and not for sale), is that actually bad? Or is it dodgy.

On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 2:35 PM, SMdude <spiteri...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://www.google.com/patents/US20140318713

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[Mark Harris]

I think the issue here would be the machining time involved. If you want to split the gap between the tape and the cover like they are doing, thats some rather fine machining - and not something a FDM printer can do.

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[Red Davies]

You may be able to achieve it with a 3d printed structure that supports something like a gently curved razor- blade.

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[Erik Grönvall]

And if one manually did the 'split', putting the start of the cover on one side and the start of the tape on the other... maybe it could then do the rest as the tape is pushed forward? so it do not have to do the 'initial split' by itself.... or? 

[Obi Wan]

Looks like an xacto blade would work

[Michael Anton]

They mention on the feederfinger page that they are only for paper tape.  That sucks...

[Juha M]

Tested first version from 6mm aluminum plate, without fancy cnc tooling and might actually work. May require manual split as Erik pointed out.

http://a360.co/2c62xWe

juha

[Cri S]

What is the uses case, as it is patent protected on most country and producing goods using patented technology is only allowed for not business owners for personal use. If resulting product is give to third part with or without fees it's patent infridgment.

[Cri S]

[SMdude]

Now I'm no patent expert, however in all the claims it only ever mentions that this device is used on existing feeders. To me it looks like it has been left open when manufacturing full new feeders? Or not adapting it to an existing feeder... Just my interpretation.

[Cri S]

The agilis feeder https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HU88ym0sdEQ was the first feeder, single standalone feeder, that implemented this technology and was patented 2003.
I have seen 3 other manufacter selling this
Type for strip feeding, that pay patent fees,
or have contracted with other patents usage rights.

[SMdude]

Ahh, I did not look that deeply into it. I must say, got to take my hat off to the bloke that thought of the idea and implemented in the first place, I bet he was mighty impressed with his invention :D

I wonder if anyone sells a dragfeeder type bank of them?

[Mikael Bohman]

Juha

Should it be compression springs between the bottom and the "inner" part to press the tape to the top, or just gravity from the top?
If only gravity, what happens if the tape thickness is different? 

[Mikael Bohman]

This is just a unfinished draft, but could something like this work for auto-peeling?
The screws could be made of thin metal-sheets that are twisted 180 deg.

[Anthony Webb]

Hi Mikael,

I was curious if you every tried your concept in this image?  I am wondering how well you could twist the metal like that and have it hold shape?  Seems like a pretty nice solution.  I am contemplating various feeder designs, but peeling tape without wasting a bunch of parts getting the cover tape into the feeder is a real issue.  A solution along the various ideas in this thread seems like a real must have.

Thanks,

Anthony

[eSlavko]

Hello...

I just wonder if that really can be cheap strip feeder. So I do little drawing and printed sample. In sample I do press from bottom by hand as I want to try pelling and twisting cover tape.

For peeling pin I used thin metal strip 0.1  to 0.2mm thick. (actually I have few pieces of metal before tincan was made from it, so even tincan can be used) But I try to use it without metal strip too. Actually work near same just at beginning the metal one start peeling itself and plastic one need little help with razor blade. If the tape is cut on pocket where component is then none of them need any help to start peeling.

Maybe it's time to add some ratcheting mechanism to advance tape from bottom and spring to push whole thing up. For spring I intend to print insert (maybe plastic tape will need different bottom) and under that just put some foam as springy material.

[socke]

Really nice! Keep us updated!

[eSlavko]

The pelling works like charm. I abandoned metal blade as plastic one works ok. It need little push on start then works great.

So the feeder works if I push/pull the feeder arm where arrow is painted left or right. But sadly doesn't work if I push/pull lever on top. In that case the feeder arm bends and binds when I press lever. The force goes in direction indicating with arrow. And this is wrong. I need to go just left/right but can afford to go 0.5mm up/down too. But it must not press in down direction.

So now I search some linkage to do that. Ideas welcome.

Also the attaching feeder on table is not solved yet. I have flat nonmagnetic table.

On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 10:19:24 AM UTC+2, socke wrote:

Really nice! Keep us updated!

[socke]

Maybe you could adapt this to Mark's feeder?

https://github.com/markmaker/PushPullFeeder

This way you wouldn't need to reinvent the wheel.

[Slavko Kocjancic]

On 18. 05. 20 12:17, socke wrote:
> Maybe you could adapt this to Mark's feeder?
> https://github.com/markmaker/PushPullFeeder
> This way you wouldn't need to reinvent the wheel.
>

That's feeder is hard to use with short cut tapes. (cover tape must be
extended..)

[Jarosław Karwik]

You can cheaply buy tape extenders ( plastic tapes with adhesives ends(made  just for this purpose)

.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000742605227.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.7df212d56QWP0u&algo_pvid=d1c6403d-592e-4339-9f47-db94ceb96add&algo_expid=d1c6403d-592e-4339-9f47-db94ceb96add-0&btsid=0ab6d67915898032812206694e59a1&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

[Slavko Kocjancic]

On 18. 05. 20 14:01, Jarosław Karwik wrote:
> You can cheaply buy tape extenders ( plastic tapes with adhesives
> ends(made  just for this purpose)
> .
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000742605227.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.7df212d56QWP0u&algo_pvid=d1c6403d-592e-4339-9f47-db94ceb96add&algo_expid=d1c6403d-592e-4339-9f47-db94ceb96add-0&btsid=0ab6d67915898032812206694e59a1&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_
>

I know that.
But I have another issue in my machine that feeder need to go under rail
and there is only 20mm space, and must be long enought to pick location
be seen with camera.

[socke]

Yes. I meant it maybe easier to modify Mark's feeder in a way that it works without tape spools and uses instead that "Feeder Finger" feature.

[Slavko Kocjancic]

On 18. 05. 20 14:12, socke wrote:
> Yes. I meant it maybe easier to modify Mark's feeder in a way that it
> works without tape spools and uses instead that "Feeder Finger" feature.
>

It's to flimsy. To peel and turnaround cover tape take a lot of force.
(tape need to be supported/pressed from bottom in complete blade length)

[TheCunningFellow]

eSlavko,

Just a warning.  I gave up on finger feeders because I had problems with older tapes.

The test design I did worked perfectly with new reels I had recently bought.

It failed with various brands of tapes that were more than a few years old.

I realise that 2+ year old tapes in a production environment would be a no-no.  But I am a hobby person as I suspect you might be.  So old tapes might be a thing to think about.

I had two different problem cases with old tapes.  Ones in which the glue had gotten so weak that the cover tape totally came off.  Other the tape had gotten more aggressive.

[Slavko Kocjancic]

Thanks for warning.

I beleive that reels with loose cover tape is bad in any case. I think
that can be used just with blindsfeeder.

In the others where tape is stisk too strong I think that near any
feeders will have hard time to do it's job.

My intention is to use that feeder for short cut tapes. For reels still
searching for the best design.

Actually I'm interested in heap feeder (components without tape on box)
as that's save a lot of space on my small machine but for now I
abandoned that as speed is just to slow. (under 100CPH).



My machine is for hobby too. So no production in that.

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[eSlavko]

Some result.

Now I need to do live testing....

One feeder prints in 45 minutes.

[Marek T.]

Is there maximal tape length limit?

[eSlavko]

Shortest 100mm. On other side no limit. In the lever is hole for tape so it just goes thru.

[Marek T.]

Yes this hole I was curious:-).
Looks nice, tell the results when you'll be after the tests.

[eSlavko]

I do test with hand driving. Few meters from 3 old reels (2015/2017). On one reel the cover tape sticks so hard that is really hard to pull it. It tends to separate paper instead to peel. But If I carefully enter that into feeder then perform well. Now I need to put that on machine and check how they perform.

[eSlavko]

I just put allready used tape into feeder to make this picture so the hole is visible...

[Marek T.]

Yes I see, it's fine.

[eSlavko]

I installed "thing" onto machine.

I do around 30 pick/discard operations and all goes perfect.

Now the time will tell the rest.

I mount servo operated handle on back of Y carriage so the handle is in low position only when feeding operation is in progress and clear from feed handles when not.

[socke]

Nice!

Would you mind sharing the feeders design files?

[Marek T.]

Do you have one nozzle?

When do you run the actuator, when Y position is reached or a moment before?

[Slavko Kocjancic]

On 21. 05. 20 18:26, Marek T. wrote:
> Do you have one nozzle?
> When do you run the actuator, when Y position is reached or a moment before?
>

I use reference lever feeder.

So machine goes to coordinate before lever, lower the servo pusher, then
machine goes to position 2 (= Y+6mm), returns to position 1 and raise
the lever. This seems to be default operation for leverfeeder as I
didn't change anything.

[Marek T.]

Understand, ok.

[Slavko Kocjancic]

On 21. 05. 20 18:17, socke wrote:
> Nice!
> Would you mind sharing the feeders design files?
>

Will do.