Drag Feeder Peeler Questions

[Jason von Nieda]

Hi all,

If you use a machine with drag feeding and an automated peeler, like TM-240, TVM802, etc. please read this:

John Grabner is working on adding peeler support to ReferenceDragFeeder but I have some questions about how this should work. If you use a machine with this type of peeler, can you please drop a quick email and let us know:

1. What machine is it?

2. If it's a commercial machine, do you know how the native software handled peeling with regards to timing, speed and distance?

3. How would you  like OpenPnP to handle peeling with regards to timing, speed and distance?

4. Do individual feeders use different timing, speed and distance for the peeler, or do all feeders peel the same?

For timing, speed and distance, what I mean is during a feed process, when should the peeler start and stop, how long or far should it run, and how fast?

Any info you can provide will help make this feature better!

Thanks,

Jason

[jjg]

5.  Do your peeling steppers run 100% of the time?

6.  Does your machine have a sensor to detect stuck drag pin? for example, the TVM802 does.

7.  Does peel stepper operate at the same time as drag?  You may need to video tape and review in slow motion.

8.  Do you have options to slow drag speed for large components like LEDs, inductors, IC?  if so, can you do a test. Lower drag speed to minimum and tell us if peel speed is also slowed down.

9.  Do feed operation sometimes leave the tape in a position where subsequent feeds also fail?  Would vision recognition of drag holes be helpful? 

10.  What version of commercial SW are you running? 

[Cri S]

I respond inline.

2017-09-08 21:53 GMT+02:00, jjg <john.j....@gmail.com>:
> 5. Do your peeling steppers run 100% of the time?

Sure, it have one speed that is configured inside motion controller
and it runs at that speed.

> 6. Does your machine have a sensor to detect stuck drag pin? for example,
> the TVM802 does.

No and Yes.
OpenPnP get Error from motion controller in that case if sensor is
present, this mean
no explicite code change for sensor.
Later i have removed that sensor because i needed more clearance and with new
drag pin the sensor is not needed anymore.

> 7. Does peel stepper operate at the same time as drag? You may need to
> video tape and review in slow motion.

Yes,

> 8. Do you have options to slow drag speed for large components like LEDs,
> inductors, IC? if so, can you do a test. Lower drag speed to minimum and
> tell us if peel speed is also slowed down.

Drag speed is setup inside DragFeeder, Peel speed and time is setup
inside motion controller.

> 9. Do feed operation sometimes leave the tape in a position where
> subsequent feeds also fail?

No

Would vision recognition of drag holes be
> helpful?

No

> 10. What version of commercial SW are you running?
>

OpenPnP

> On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 2:22:58 PM UTC-5, Jason von Nieda wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> If you use a machine with drag feeding and an automated peeler, like
>> TM-240, TVM802, etc. please read this:
>>
>> John Grabner is working on adding peeler support to ReferenceDragFeeder
>> but I have some questions about how this should work. If you use a machine
>>
>> with this type of peeler, can you please drop a quick email and let us
>> know:
>>
>> 1. What machine is it?

Self Build, similar to this for the drag feeder with peel off, or any tvm802
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk2LwsnRq_A
There is annother Drag feeder with gravity driven peel off , used for
thicker parts or
wider tapes where it don't drag into holes but into empty pockets.

>> 2. If it's a commercial machine, do you know how the native software
>> handled peeling with regards to timing, speed and distance?
>> 3. How would you like OpenPnP to handle peeling with regards to timing,
>> speed and distance?

As max width is 16mm and max pocket depth is ?? mm one settings works
for all peel
situation, there is no need for complicate the thing.

>> 4. Do individual feeders use different timing, speed and distance for the
>>
>> peeler, or do all feeders peel the same?

drag different, peel same
Peeling time begins when dragging begin, or because drag pin need some ms to be
enabled it begins 5ms before. If motion controller peel time is set to
500 ms, and
pnp feed 4 components, peel time duration is approx 1700ms during
production run,
at slower speed it always stop before the next feeder peel motor is started.

>>
>> For timing, speed and distance, what I mean is during a feed process, when
>>
>> should the peeler start and stop, how long or far should it run, and how
>> fast?
>>
>> Any info you can provide will help make this feature better!
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jason
>>
>

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[mojalovaa1]

After allot time I'm found free time  for look post .
Cri.s is give link to my channel , that is electromagnetic needle for pull tape but that solution is not  good for fast pull tape , theoretical if you have  big distance  between  part tape and  needle  you can not have  fast pull tape , on my  video that is 25 mm .
For that machine Cri.s is make me upgrade  on the software  , he is add on settings in machine file  time for delay before pull tape and all so time  for delay after pull before run job after tape  , on my machine that is 0.15 sec before pull (that is time that need for go down with needle ) and  0.1 sec for  go up .
All so we are make  that machine go buck on the way  of the pull  because needle sometime can be  blocked in hole .
For that I'm design needle with RC servo , speed is same , all so can be faster  if you buy faster  RC servo , after I will put video for see .

[jjg]

Thank you Mojalovaa.

With Solenoid / electromagnatic needle, the needle did get stuck sometimes.  So if someone has a machine like TVM802, then reading sensor for a stuck drag pin is essential.  Correct?

All those delays you talk about is to minimize the chance of drag pin getting stuck in hole?

You say servo is faster than solenoid.  You say this only because of the large delays you added.  If stuck pin sensor (just like end stop but for pin) is available, you can drag very extremely fast.  Correct?

[Cri S]

Yes, pneumatic or high speed analog servo works a lot better as small direct drive solenoids, same as angled pull pins instead of verticals.

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[jjg]

Thanks Cri S

So you implemented a command on your controller to run the peel stepper. Correct?

Is this a custom controller or a common one like smoothie?

So if different drag feeders have different drag speeds, you need to edit both the OpenPnP configuration and the controller?

[jjg]

I don't understand "Angled pull pins".  My solenoid on the TVM802 points straight down perpendicular to the XY plane.  I have not checked its speed, but its so fast I am scared to put my finger under it since I think it would puncture my skin.

[phon...@gmail.com]

I use 0.9 grbl 6 axis + pull motor using M code. Grbl is not well supported on Gcode driver.

Angled mean strip pull pin is stored rectracted horizontal and actuator angle it between 30 to 60 degree.
No clearance problems, no retract problems and simpler mechanical construction are the advantages.
Disadvantage is that it works only on 2 sides and not on all 4 sides.

[phon...@gmail.com]

No, drag speed is setup on openpnp feeder. Pull speed and time need to be set on notion controller, max time, it don't matter if most feeder need shorter time. One setting works fine. For GPS modules or connectors or inductors I use separate drag feeder block with gravity feed peeling. If you need doing 48mm strips with 60mm peel off same as 4mm strips with 1mm step spacing things change and need done differently.

[jjg]

https://youtu.be/AfOuwE26aXU

The above shows how fast a solenoid based drag pin is.

Added a 15ms delay so can see.

Servo can't be this fast ?

[mojalovaa1]

jjg , try that please with tape 

I have 25 mm distance , and you have 15 mm , that is big difference trust me .
With that speed  needle not have power  for go down total on the hole if needle is not total in center hole , and you know that  hole is not 100% on same  position .

[mojalovaa1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPDLyNqIipU

This is RC servo from china , cost 1.5$ or something like that  .

[Cri S]

HS-81 Servo perform it in 50ms driven at 14ms interval and 5V and it
have no sticking problems and height clearance is bigger.

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[jjg]

by driven you mean the pulse width modulation or do you mean the time it takes to go from up to down position?

[jjg]

Just trying to understand, I am not criticizing.

I would like to understand the full range of solutions out there and why some are implemented by commercial vendors and others implemented by DIY.

Solenoid Pro:

1) fastest (10ms vs >110ms)

2) lowest cost (just a coil)

Solenoid Con:

3) not strong, so can not force through tape

4) can't move far

Servo pro:

5) strong, can apply lot of force

6) can move very far

So I'm guessing that low-cost commercial machines use Solenoid, expensive machines use dedicated feed motors.

DIY machines use servos and Solenoid.

Is this a fair understanding?

[mojalovaa1]

RC servo is not expense , but need some electronics fr control it , other is cheaper  then solenoid .

[Cri S]

RC Servos are either driven at 50Hz or 71.43Hz, (20 or 14ms) , some
analog servos allows
up to 90 Hz, digital servos allows up to 300 hz indipendent of real update rate.
Hs-81 = plastic gear , 13$/€ - fastest 0.09 sec / 60°
Hs-82M = metall gear , 20$/€ - 0.1 sec / 60°
hs-85M = metall gear + ballbearing , 30$/€ - 0.13 sec / 60°

Using standard horn this are 6mm for 30 degr (50ms), and 13mm for max
rotation that need 270ms. .,
and using long horn, this is 11mm for 30 degr and 24mm for max rotation.

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[mojalovaa1]

On video  is used this servo RC : https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-5pcs-lot-New-SG90-9G-Micro-Mini-Servos-Horns-For-rc-Helicoper-Airplane/614357328.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000014.1.4b24ae2bQSsB0h&traffic_analysisId=recommend_3035_null_null_null&scm=1007.13338.80892.000000000000000&pvid=bb88ede8-bf40-40b3-a576-dfeba3d5149e&tpp=1