Peter's Pick and Place frame BETA

[Peter Betz]

Hello all,

Creating a place holder for my frame design (C3 Ballscrews/ Leadshine hybrid closed loop steppers etc). I will be hoping to get some input from you on it when it is a little further along. For now, a little teaser of the COMPLETELY parametric design build:

Peter.

[Gregory Davill]

Wow Peter! 

[Marius Liebenberg]

Looks great Peter. May I ask why you opted to go with ballscrews? Unless you have a very large pitch they are notoriously slow. Especially for this kind of work.
What RPM can the Leadshine steppers produce?

[Michael Anton]

If you want to have fewer problems with the linear rails, I'd recommend getting the surface where the rails mount machined flat.  Misumi will do this for you for not too much extra cost (ok, it's not cheap, but pretty reasonable compared to sending it out to someone else).  Aluminum extrusions are often twisted, and not flat, which is a problem when mounting linear guides.

On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 3:30:19 PM UTC-7, Peter Betz wrote:

Hello all,

Creating a place holder for my frame design (C3 Ballscrews/ Leadshine hybrid closed loop steppers etc). I will be hoping to get some input from you on it when it is a little further along. For now, a little teaser of the COMPLETELY parametric design build:

Peter.

[Peter Betz]

Looks great Peter. May I ask why you opted to go with ballscrews? Unless you have a very large pitch they are notoriously slow. Especially for this kind of work.
What RPM can the Leadshine steppers produce?

I am thinking ball screws because it is a known, reliable result. My machine with belts always seems to have a strange drift to it, and to me there is nothing more precise than ballscrews. Having said that, I'd be open to going with a REAL belt, something reinforced, I was googling around last night a bit and see things like T5 and A10, which seem like they would certainly be an improvement over mine....

I am not fond of how the leadshine motors stick so far out on the machine design currently, but it would be a pretty rigid setup..

Leadshine motors are 3,000 RPM, so with a 1605 you'd do 15m/ min (0.00125mm resolution), or with a 1610 you'd do 30m/ min (0.0025mm resolution). Hardly a slouch in my opinion?

Keep the input coming, your feedback is what helped make the head so universal and successful!

Peter

[Anthony Webb]

Peter you dirty dog, my wife does not appreciate all the projects and ideas you dangle out there! I’ve wanted to try ballscrews but with some real beefy rods as opposed rails/extrusion this time. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Peter Betz]

If you want to have fewer problems with the linear rails, I'd recommend getting the surface where the rails mount machined flat.  Misumi will do this for you for not too much extra cost (ok, it's not cheap, but pretty reasonable compared to sending it out to someone else).  Aluminum extrusions are often twisted, and not flat, which is a problem when mounting linear guides.

 Thanks for the heads up, I will check out what the cost is.

Peter.

[Peter Betz]

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 8:25:00 AM UTC-8, Anthony Webb wrote:

Peter you dirty dog, my wife does not appreciate all the projects and ideas you dangle out there! I’ve wanted to try ballscrews but with some real beefy rods as opposed rails/extrusion this time.

If I were standing on your shoulder I certainly wouldn't be wearing white ; ) 

[Jason von Nieda]

T5 is not for linear motion, it's for timing. GT2 is designed specifically for linear motion and the tooth profile limits backlash. You CAN buy wider GT2 belts, which is what the mid-tier machines use.

Jason

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[Peter Betz]

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 1:35:57 AM UTC-8, Michael Anton wrote:

If you want to have fewer problems with the linear rails, I'd recommend getting the surface where the rails mount machined flat.  Misumi will do this for you for not too much extra cost (ok, it's not cheap, but pretty reasonable compared to sending it out to someone else).  Aluminum extrusions are often twisted, and not flat, which is a problem when mounting linear guides.

So on a 600mm 40x40 dual slot extrusion, milling changes the price from $9 to $26. That's a lot, but I suppose I'd only need 3 of them, could be worth it.

So do you guys think I should stay the course with screws or maybe look at a reinforced belt system? What are most professional machines using?

Peter.

[Peter Betz]

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 8:39:26 AM UTC-8, Jason von Nieda wrote:

T5 is not for linear motion, it's for timing. GT2 is designed specifically for linear motion and the tooth profile limits backlash. You CAN buy wider GT2 belts, which is what the mid-tier machines use.

Jason

Thanks for that Jason, I wasn't aware! So pretty much GT2 or ballscrews then.... What accuracy class screws did you buy? It seemed like it was only another $100 to go from C5 to C3, assuming C7 is just a little to sloppy.

Another thing I could do to make the machine more compact is to use a belt to couple the screw to the motor, so like a 180 degree gearbox, but then I introduce a belt again, which I'm not fond of.

Peter.

[Jason von Nieda]

I bought C7 but I've been so swamped I haven't had a chance to do anything with them, so I still don't know how accurate they actually are. My plan was to use C7s and then use a linear magnetic encoder to map the screws. If you have a low quality screw it *should* be possible to map the errors and store those, and they should not really change.

If this all turned out to be true, and to work, I thought I could map the screws one time and then take the magnetic encoder off and use it on another machine. 

As far as the belt for changing the orientation of the motor, that is very common in ballscrew systems, especially on milling machines. It's also often used to gear the screws down some.

Jason

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[Marek T.]

In my Philips there are the ball screws but ended with sprockets not connected to motors directly. Motors are also eneded with sprockets.
And that sprockets of motors and screws are connected each other with using short ~200mm belts.
Kind of mix....

[Peter Betz]

Thanks Jason and Marek. I think I will shift to screws driven by belts. It will make the machine much more compact, and eliminates the complication of mounting the motor and shaft coupling. I suppose backlash of the coupling is also practically eliminated. I'm hot on the trail for wide (15mm+) GT2 belts!

Thanks for the input!

[Jason von Nieda]

You can get 9mm from Robotdigg ( https://www.robotdigg.com/category/28/GT2-Endless-Belt ), and I know that 12mm and 16mm exist, but I have not found a good source. Maybe check Stock Drive Products or Gates directly. 

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:30 AM Peter Betz <betzt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Jason and Marek. I think I will shift to screws driven by belts. It will make the machine much more compact, and eliminates the complication of mounting the motor and shaft coupling. I suppose backlash of the coupling is also practically eliminated. I'm hot on the trail for wide (15mm+) GT2 belts!

Thanks for the input!

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[Marek T.]

My concrete belts are neoprene reinforced with fiber glass (something like used for cars timing belts).
Zero wear marks after 30 years of using, never changed.
My sizes are 15mm wide, 3M (3mm between teeth), HTD teeth profile type.
Optibelt, Gates, many manufacturers produce it. I think you can buy it in US anywhere for some US$5-10, no need to bring it from China.
https://www.optibelt.com/en/power-transmission/products/rubber-timing-belts/htd.html?cid=3644
or put this site into google web translator
https://www.ebmia.pl/zebaty-2433m15-p-4245.html?ile=50

[John Kasunich]

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Jason von Nieda wrote:
> You can get 9mm from Robotdigg (
> https://www.robotdigg.com/category/28/GT2-Endless-Belt ), and I know that
> 12mm and 16mm exist, but I have not found a good source. Maybe check Stock
> Drive Products or Gates directly.
>

Something to keep in mind if going wider: it is recommended to avoid having the belt width as large or larger than the pulley diameter.

For example, GT2 in 2mm pitch. A 16 tooth pulley has a pitch diameter of 10.18mm, and a 20 tooth pulley has a pitch diameter of 12.73mm. For best life, a 16mm pulley would be used with 6mm or maybe 9mm wide belts. The 20 tooth pulleys could be used with 6, 9, 10, or maybe 12mm wide belts.

I'm in the early design stages of a CoreXY machine, using some AC servomotors and 2x10mm belts per motor with 20 tooth pulleys. I'll share on the list once I have more than just a few sketches to show.


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jmkas...@fastmail.fm

[Peter Betz]

Thanks for that info, I have to be honest, I am mainly drawn to a wider belt for looks, haha. Like a big belt driven secondary on a motorcycle.  I will probably stick with 9mm wide as it is more readily available and as per your suggestion, more appropriate.

Thanks for chiming in.

Peter.

[Marek T.]

My belt is 15mm and puley diameter also moreless 15mm. Only the pitch is 3mm.

[Bradley Parcels]

Looks awesome Peter!

For the screws vs. belts vs. reinforced belts - there is another pretty elegant option that may fit your needs:

Bell-Everman (who make reeeeally nice stages for semicon & biomed stuff) make something called a "ServoBelt"... They use a second belt that is solidly fixed to the rail, which acts almost like a gear (and eliminates stretch etc.)... Claim to get as good as 25um bidir repeatability, with the speed/cost/weight of a belt system:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdJoVh6DRPA

(not a great video, but there is a shot that gets the point across near the end)

http://bell-everman.com/pdfs/online/docs/Bell-Everman_ServoBelt_Linear_Engineering_Guide.pdf?reload=1491329316398

a few diagrams that help explain it

Looks like it would be pretty trivial to replicate (so long as you don't have any intentions on selling your machine - pretty sure they've applied for several patents).

Anyway - just food for thought, if you haven't already run across it!

Cheers,

Brad

[Bradley Parcels]

The video for their newer version (slightly different, but same main idea) is better:

http://bell-everman.com/?wvideo=nbodc569hx

Cheers,

Brad

[Anthony Webb]

The shapeoko uses a fixed belt like that. When I designed my machine I did not use that concept as I did not want to lug around the weight of the motor if I could avoid it. Probably does t make much difference though. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Peter Betz]

[Bradley Parcels]

Anyone know if GT5 belts are appropriate? I half recall something about them being the same general profile, just larger pitch?

In any case - http://www.phidgets.com has 6mm GT2 and 15mm GT5 belts, pulleys, etc... and are based here in Calgary (if I'm not mistaken Peter - you're a fellow Canuck?).

They also have a pretty decent selection of other fun that may be of interest to people around here:

- aluminum profiles (some of the best prices I've found anywhere)

- steppers

- ballscrews

- various electronics/sensors

- etc. etc.

I'm not affiliated with them in any way - just was thrilled to find an easy north american source (let alone local) for this kinda stuff!

Cheers,

Brad

[Peter Betz]

Hey that’s a great link, I had no idea about them. And yes I’m in Prince George, you are in Calgary ?

Peter Betz
Betz Technik Industries Ltd.
BETZtechnik.ca

[Michael Anton]

It's perhaps worth mentioning that the T-slot extrusions that Phidgets sells are of the Chinese variety, which have slightly different dimensions that the ones that Misumi sells.  For example, the end hole can be tapped for M5 on Misumi extrusions, but the Chinese ones need to be tapped for M6.  I haven't checked the other dimensions...

Misumi charges $5.70/m for 2020 extrusions, so the Phidgets pricing really is pretty good.

[Brad Parcels]

I am indeed (in Calgary)... And ya - Phidgets has improved significantly over the years... used to just be their USB driver/sensor boards and such (pretty overpriced, IMHO, but also pretty handy for quick experiments)...

In case you haven't come across them, http://www.solarbotics.com is another Calgary company that can sometimes be helpful (openbeam, servos, gear motors, various electronics, tools, etc.)... Their "groovy-noodle" silicone jacketed wire is fantastic (just in case anybody else around here is nerdy enough to have strong feelings about plain old wire).

(No affiliation with these guys either... just another Canadian sources that may be of use to others!)

Cheers,
Brad

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[Peter Betz]

Hello again everyone!

I thought I would post some progress on my frame design. I'm trying to make it so completely parametric that a person could use it for almost anything. To say that has been challenging would be a understatement to say the least....

To give you an idea of what I mean we can look at the design with my head mounted:

The screw position is referenced to the very top forward edge of the gantry extrusion. If you wanted to use this design for, lets say a laser, this screw position would not likely be ideal. For a laser we would probably want the ballnut bracket to mount directly to a plate that is sitting on the linear rail bearing block.

Changing the XscrewPositionY parameter to 7mm, and changing the XpulleyCenter parameter to 72mm (to allow for a 208mm belt, this automatically changes the position of the servo relative to the screw, and for this X screw location we need a little more space in between them), we now see that a standard ballnut mounting block will be flush with the mounting surface of the X linear rail bearing block. If you wanted to move the screw up or down in Z, you could simply modify the XscrewPositionZ parameter to move it in the Z plane. You will also notice that all of the brackets automatically adjust shape as well as you change the parameters.

I am painfully mulling over every little detail, like the ball screw mounts, ensuring they have appropriate radial and axial support:

Of course all aspects are adjustable through the parameter tables, like bed width, bed height, height of the gantry, how much the front and back of the machine extends past the end of the bed, rail heights (in case you want to use rails other that the 12mm rails in the design). You can even change the servo/ stepper mounting patterns just by using the parameter tables, so switching between NEMA23 and NEMA17 is as easy as adjusting a couple of values. 

So that's it for this update, still lots to do. I'm hoping some of you might find this useful!

Peter Betz.

[Michael Anton]

Traditionally, ballscrews use a pair of angular contact bearings at one end (mounted to oppose each other), with a bit of preload on them to take out any backlash.  This handles the thrust and radial support at the same time.  It looks like you are using a thrust bearing, and I'm not sure that you would be able to achieve the same functionality with that, but it may be good enough.

On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 3:09:06 PM UTC-6, Peter Betz wrote:

Hello again everyone!

I thought I would post some progress on my frame design. I'm trying to make it so completely parametric that a person could use it for almost anything. To say that has been challenging would be a understatement to say the least....

To give you an idea of what I mean we can look at the design with my head mounted:

The screw position is referenced to the very top forward edge of the gantry extrusion. If you wanted to use this design for, lets say a laser, this screw position would not likely be ideal. For a laser we would probably want the ballnut bracket to mount directly to a plate that is sitting on the linear rail bearing block.

Changing the XscrewPositionY parameter to 7mm, and changing the XpulleyCenter parameter to 72mm (to allow for a 208mm belt, this automatically changes the position of the servo relative to the screw, and for this X screw location we need a little more space in between them), we now see that a standard ballnut mounting block will be flush with the mounting surface of the X linear rail bearing block. If you wanted to move the screw up or down in Z, you could simply modify the XscrewPositionZ parameter to move it in the Z plane. You will also notice that all of the brackets automatically adjust shape as well as you change the parameters.

I am painfully mulling over every little detail, like the ball screw mounts, ensuring they have appropriate radial and axial support:

Of course all aspects are adjustable through the parameter tables, like bed width, bed height, height of the gantry, how much the front and back of the machine extends past the end of the bed, rail heights (in case you want to use rails other that the 12mm rails in the design). You can even change the servo/ stepper mounting patterns just by using the parameter tables, so switching between NEMA23 and NEMA17 is as easy as adjusting a couple of values. 

[Peter Betz]

Hi Michael,

Yes I’m using a ball and thrust bearing. Angular contacts didn’t occur to me (I’m thinking the ball bearing would handle the preload) but I’m trying to work within the confines of 1/4” plate. Let me see what mcmaster has to offer for AC’s. Thanks for the input!

[Michael Anton]

Radial bearings are not really meant to take much in the way of thrust loads though, versus angular contacts, which are.  Also, as drawn, you would probably want to have some clearance for the center hub of the radial bearing.  Currently, it looks like it will rub on the left hand plate when the preload is applied to it.  Also, the preload applied the the thrust bearing, is the same as what is applied to the end of the radial bearing, which is probably less than ideal.  You end up with a thrust bearing supporting the load in one direction, and thrust on a radial bearing supporting the load in the opposite direction.

You probably wouldn't need to have the bears buried fully into the plate, and they would probably be ok if they stuck out some on each side of the plate.  Once in the bore, they aren't really going anywhere, especially with the preload holding them to the plate on both sides.  Sometimes the pair of bearings are put into the same bore, with a thin shim between the outside races.  The preload pulls the center races together, and the shim sets the preload amount.  I'm not sure if this would be any better in your case though.

[Michael Anton]

Judging by the AC bearing prices from McMaster-Carr, you may want to take a look at what vxb.com has.

[Oz-Ron]

G’Day Peter,

If you would like some firsthand experience with linear guides and various means of linear drives I can offer the following:

 

From my (large) Core XY laser cutter experience, don’t underestimate the problems in achieving fully trammed linear guide rails. First hurdle is to overcome binding when the new rails are not perfectly straight and twist free.

From my CNC Router, it took a lot of fine fiddly adjustments until the ball screws ran completely parallel to the linear guides. Funny how simple assumptions in design are really challenging in practise.

 

Then, there is inertia to consider.

The inertia of the gantry can be more than matched by the rotational inertia of a ball screw driving it.  (Especially if you are considering a common 1605 type) For an application requiring rapid directional changes this is a big factor.  Search up the engineering on this and you might be surprised.

 

High end PnP machines that do employ ball screws use some exotic versions with coarse pitches like 20+mm per turn to reduce the inertia per unit travel and achieve reasonable acceleration.

 

Agree with Jason having tried T5 timing belt & GT2.  The T5 15mm Kevlar introduced a 0.1mm backlash (repeatable), but I can live with that on the router as a trade-off for quite respectable rapids on the 1500mm Y axis. 

 

GT2 is designed to eliminate backlash, but in garden variety 6 & 9 mm is limited in power & speed.  Robotdigg was able to supply wide GT2 belt (18mm) and https://www.robotdigg.com/product/939/GT2-profile-Pulley-made-from-Brass-for-high-torque

high quality brass pulleys to match.  In my opinion, as fitted to mid-range commercial machines wide GT2 is a practical and fully functional solution that is time efficient to employ even on a Nema 23 motor.

 

Instead of attaching linear guides to extrusions, have you considered using larger profile linear guides on their own as some of the commercial machines do?  Robotdigg can supply HiWin knock offs, but I can’t say how good they are. https://www.robotdigg.com/product/1122/HGR15,-HGR20,-HGR25,-HGR30-Linear-Rail-or-matching-Carriage  I wonder if anyone has tried them?

 

Another option that does work well is the linear round shaft & linear bearings.  I used 16mm for the Y axis on my first PnP along with a pair of 18mm GT2 belts.  By just supporting the Y axis shaft at each end, it creates an aperture each side to allow part feeding.  It is also cheap and readily available.  For the gantry I used a pair of 12mm shafts and a single 18mm GT2 belt. 

 

Like every engineering challenge, there are compromises - especially cost verses accuracy and time / labour to build.

 

Good luck and keep up the good work.

 

Cheers,

Ron

 

[Brynn Rogers]

Isn't this about the same as a rack and pinion, with some rubber in between to take out the backlash?

[Thomas Hoppe]

Hi Peter, what software are you using for the parametric construction? BG

[Peter Betz]

Hello everyone,

Missed oz-Ron’s message, lots of great ideas in there !! As far as aligning the rails I just leave the screws a bit loose and let the gantry align them. Obviously can lead to squareness issues, but the software looks after that. I am going to look at the rest of the comments. I like the idea of maybe using a larger rail type for the axis and not using extrusions ! Will evaluate further. I have a new CNC mill that only has 0.0004” deviation across its entire X travel of 450mm. Was thinking I could clamp the extrusions twice to deck them off and would be < 0.001” flatness over 1m, which I am sure is just fine. 

Thomas- I am using fusion 360. 

Peter Betz

Betz Technik Industries Ltd. 

BETZtechnik.ca

On Jul 25, 2018, at 1:20 PM, Thomas Hoppe <thomas...@n-fuse.co> wrote:

Hi Peter, what software are you using for the parametric construction? BG

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[Brynn Rogers]

Hi Peter,

I was wondering two things,    Progress on the machine in this thread,

and what is the Z travel of your head that your selling (both new and the used one)?

Brynn

[Peter Betz]

Hi Brynn,

I’m plugging away when I can. I got a new CNC mill so I’ve been pretty busy with it for the last couple months. I fully intend to finish it, especially now having the mill that can make the required parts. 

I put up an image on the product page just now of the distance nozzle to nozzle when they are fully displaced. It is also listed on the product page. Each nozzle can drop down 22.5mm from neutral. 

About the mill and being busy I actually cut some pick and place frame plates on it today:

These are the plates for the frame Anthony designed (that my machine uses). 

Peter Betz

Betz Technik Industries Ltd. 

BETZtechnik.ca

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[Trampas Stern]

I did the same thing, I milled one of the second Y bracket such that it had a bearing in it to support the shaft load. 

I also turned the X/Y upside down from Anthony's design.  That is once you build the X/Y just flip upside down.  This allows me to put corner bracing on the top to keep X and Y rails square. 

Your mill looks like it does a great job, which mill is it? 

[Peter Betz]

Hi Trampas,

I like to think it’s the wizard, not the wand 😂. 

Syil X7 with Siemens 808D Advanced controller. Siemens absolute position servo system. Renishaw laser interferometer ballscrew compensated. 

Peter Betz

Betz Technik Industries Ltd. 

BETZtechnik.ca

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[Peter Chaisty]

Awesome Peter

Of course you do know the machine is cheap compared to all the workholding and tooling your going to buy now !.

I hope your new toy brings you lots of fun.

Peter

[Peter Betz]

Hi Peter,

You ain’t kidding!!! 😢

I’m excited to make pnp parts with it on the side too. I’m going to be fully machining the pick and place heads I’m selling. The water finish of the parts after water jet leaves a lot to be desired, so I’m excited to make them fully machined!  

Peter Betz

Betz Technik Industries Ltd. 

BETZtechnik.ca

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