Used or NOS?

[Alic]

Hello everyone,

I've recently started to seriously collect nixies.

As they become less available (and more expensive), the chances to get used tubes sold as NOS increase.

I've bought some "NOS" 122P224 off eBay and I'm pretty sure they're actually used, because of the "silvering" on the side and below (see photos).

There are probably already a lot of posts on here explaining how to identify used nixies (visually and by measuring).

I've searched but without much success. Could someone please point me in the right direction? I don't want to falsely accuse the eBay seller...

Thanks.

Alic

[Mich...@aol.com]

Well, silver is normal to new tubes when the getter is flashed; however, I don't see the silver on the picture.

 

What I do see appears to be white.  When the silver turns white, it means the tube has leaked out.  Maybe a crack?

 

It's possible my eyes are misleading me, but isn't that white?

 

Michail

[gregebert]

Test them and watch for incomplete illumination, or blackness inside the glass.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My experience with Burroughs nixies is that the 5092's are *very* reliable; I've never had one fail even after several years. These tubes contain mercury, so it's possible that's what you see on the glass. Many of my 5092's have no known history, so I assume many of them were used. They still work fine.

I've had one 6091 fail, and it is blackened on the inside of the glass after 1 year of usage. None of my other Burroughs nixies are blackened, so I suspect that this tube had excessive cathode sputtering. Most likely it was a manufacturing anomaly.

Beware of Burroughs 5031 tubes. They are earlier-generation than the 5092, and I have several that don't illuminate properly. Even attempting to depoison them with excess current made no improvement. I suspect they have leaked some of their neon gas over time, and that newer-generation tubes improved the metal-to-glass sealing. Remember that we're talking about tubes made 50+ years ago, so it's rather amazing they still work after all that time.

[Alic]

My photo-skills are not very good, sorry.

It's really more greyish and on some parts its mirror or chrome-like.

I joined some more picture.

It appears on all 122P224 I have. Always on the same parts of the tube : on the bottom part and along the wires. The thing is, that some nixies are from Sphere, sold as used and some from eBay, supposed to be NOS...

They all look the same!

[Alic]

I'm sure they're working fine. That's why I also bought used ones.

But when I pay for NOS, I would also like to receive NOS.

[Nicholas Stock]

Unless they come wrapped in original boxes, then that's a hard thing to determine. Even then, you have to take the seller's word for it. If all the digits illuminate well at the rated voltage and current and there's no visible darkening or mirroring (this can be quite obvious in well used nixies), then that's as good as it's going to get I think. There are some used tubes that will still last years and years and some that don't last long at all (IN-1's, IN-2's...in my experience...).

On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Alic <al...@gmx.net> wrote:

I'm sure they're working fine. That's why I also bought used ones.

But when I pay for NOS, I would also like to receive NOS.

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[Alic]

I did not have a chance to test them and measure the voltage and current yet.

I'm wondering what that mirroring people are talking about looks like? There is definitely some reflecting deposit on the glass on the lower part of the tube (see the last pictures I posted).

[Mich...@aol.com]

Flashing the getter is what makes the mirroring.  Many people think the black or mirror means the tube is used, but it's part of the manufacturing process.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQBmt-z0w9g

 

A really good video is by "How It's Made"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOR6Pn-tGPo

Getter flashing at 4:25 -- It's worth watching the 5 min vid.

 

Michail

[Alic]

Very nice videos, thanks!
This explains a lot!

Yes, I thought it was strange that the mirroring was only underneath and not near the numerals, where the sputtering would usually deposit.

This seems to be specific to this model of nixie though or are there others?

[GastonP]

I have an NL-840 which has silvering around the mercury giver too. No getter in there, though.

This seems to be specific to this model of nixie though or are there others?e

[Nick]

Nixies are not vacuum tubes - they shouldn't have a getter.

Nick

[John Rehwinkel]

Nixies are not vacuum tubes - they shouldn't have a getter.

Actually, some nixies do have a getter, but it's a different kind of getter than vacuum tubes use, naturally.  Most of the ones with getters use "pill" getters, often on the back of the anode, and there's normally no "getter flash" on the glass.

http://www.tubeclockdb.com/images/stories/2012/in-18-bd/in-18-nixie-clock-6.jpg

- John

[Alic]

So, if it's not mirroring from a getter-flash, what is it on the glass inside all these 122P224?

The top is perfectly clean and transparent as far as I can tell, even on the used ones I bought.

[Dekatron42]

The mirroring can be Mercury drops or sometimes when a Nixie doesn't fire up correctly the wires connecting the number glows instead of the number itself and the deposit shows on the glass close to the wires.

Most tubes were switched on for some time in the factory so the bad ones could be weeded out and also so that the ones specified for the military or otherwise long life usage in some circumstances sat for an extra long time so they will sometimes show some extra sputtering.

When you turn on a B-5092 Nixie for the first time after it has been stored for very long time you can usually see that it glows along the wires before the number starts to glow. I've bought a few of these in Swedish military plain brown boxes that had an extra seal over the ends so from that seal I know that these had been unopened for a very long time, even though they were checked regularely before that, and some had this kind of sputtering along the wires and some didn't even though they were manufactured at the same time (had the same date stamps).

It could be that the Mercury in the tube is binding to the sputtered material making it shinier than usual.

/Martin

[Nick]

Why would they have a getter? An Hg pill that needs to be vaporized, sure. But a getter? They are used to remove any stray gas molecules given off by the glass or internal structures due to heat & time.

Nixies are gassed tubes by definition - a getter would be counter-productive - even during baking and initial evacuation prior to backfilling, you wouldn't use a getter.

Nick

[jb-electronics]

I don't think it would be counter-productive, see e.g. the XN-1. Neon and argon are noble gases and hence they almost don't interact with getter material, as far as I know.

Jens

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[Dekatron42]

Dekatrons use a getter that is flashed and they contain similar gas mixtures compared with Nixies, as I understand it the getter is there to absorb impurities from the materials used whereas the mercury is there to extend the life of the Nixie as it reduces the sputtering.

/Martin

[Instrument Resources of America]

As I understand it, a getter's primary purpose, within a 'VACUUM TUBE' is to absorb an remaining 'OXYGEN' from within the envelope.  Ira.

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[Instrument Resources of America]

As I mentioned in an earlier post today getters are flashed inside of 'VACUUM TUBES' to absorb residual 'OXYGEN' after pump down, and possibly some external R.F. heating of the internal elements to further degas.  OXYGEN is extremely detrimental to 'hot cathodes', and 'hot filaments', and will destroy both quite quickly, even in small quantities.  Ira.

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[JohnK]

OK... so why a getter in this one?  All the little NEON tubes are each already sealed.

http://www.tubecollector.org/zz1030.htm

 

John K

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/56E8834B.4080303%40HUGHES.NET.

[Marcin Adamski]

Have no answer, except that if they wanted to have a good vacuum why not
to use getter. But why do they needed the vacuum envelope at all? There
is a version of this stabilizer without the envelope. Just four tubes
packed into a single base: http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_zz1031.html
Marcin

On 16-Mar-16 14:47, JohnK wrote:
> OK... so why a getter in this one? All the little NEON tubes are each
> already sealed.
> http://www.tubecollector.org/zz1030.htm
> John K
>
> ----- Original Message -----

> *From:* Instrument Resources of America <mailto:IRACO...@HUGHES.NET>
> *To:* neoni...@googlegroups.com <mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 16, 2016 8:18 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [neonixie-l] Used or NOS?

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[JohnK]

[yes, my link included one of those too. Maybe the "see also" is a little
buried.]

jk

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[Instrument Resources of America]

In the specs it states max Volts between any of the internal elements is
1000V, I wonder if the getter helped to achieve that spec, by removing
residual oxygen??? Ira.

[Nick]

On Tuesday, 15 March 2016 17:31:44 UTC, Jens Boos wrote:

I don't think it would be counter-productive, see e.g. the XN-1. Neon and argon are noble gases and hence they almost don't interact with getter material, as far as I know

Yup - I can buy that...

Nick 

[Tidak Ada]

To my knowledge getter is only working to oxidizing gasses as oxygen fluor and chlorine and other oxidizing gases. Anyhow the oxidizing properties are essential.

All metals are typical reducing elements.

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[John Rehwinkel]

OK... so why a getter in this one?  All the little NEON tubes are each already sealed.

I don't think they're sealed.  I think their tips are open to the main enclosing envelope.

- John

[Dekatron42]

As you say it looks like the tips are open, they certainly aren't melted at the tip like the four separate ones.

It would be interesting to see the result if the ZZ1030 was checked with a plasma lamp, that would show if there is neon gas in the envelope or just in each voltage regulator tube.

/Martin

[Dekatron42]

I just had a look at the datasheet for the tube and it is shown as all voltage regulators are encased in one envelope, not four separate.

http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_zz1030.html & http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/128/z/ZZ1030.pdf

/Martin

[JohnK]

Well, when I first got that valve I thought as you do. But have a look at that second photo.

And, because of a previous discussion after I sent the valve to Jeremy, we have had him look at it closely - he agrees; definitely solid glass at those cut off tips.

I have a second one somewhere but it is horribly buried so that isn't an option at the moment.

 

I had really wanted them to be open because I was interested in other conduction paths for certain connections if the whole things was gas filled. Haven't tried lighting it up with a proximity voltage or microwave.

 

 

jk

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: John Rehwinkel

To: neoni...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 10:19 PM

Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Used or NOS?

OK... so why a getter in this one?  All the little NEON tubes are each already sealed.

I don't think they're sealed.  I think their tips are open to the main enclosing envelope.

- John

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[JohnK]

Ah, but four sets of closely-spaced elements in one envelope? Would it work?  That is why my first reaction was that they had locally walled off the individual pairs but had left them all in one main gas container. I WANTED it to be novel like that.

 

However, the tops are closed - note:- you can't see the walls of tubulation. You can see what looks like snip/scissor lines across solid glass.

I think all the bottoms are sealed.

I will attempt to locate my other example, maybe even ask for examples on TCA.

 

 

John K

Australia

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Dekatron42

To: neonixie-l

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 10:42 PM

Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Used or NOS?

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[Dekatron42]

I just remembered that they are used in the Leybold 55952 counter as voltage regulators for the Geiger-tube power supply, but I can't remember how they glowed even though I think they actually glowed as four distinct tubes inside the envelope. I restored one of those counters and passed it on to another collector but that was some years ago.

/Martin

[Dekatron42]

There is actually a photo of them glowing individually here: http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/leybold_impuls_zaehlgeraet_55952.html , you just had to press the button "Next Pictures" below the photos and scroll down to see them in full glory!

/Martin

[A_Nonamus]

Many nixie types have a mercury "giver" of one sort or another. A few nixie types have a "getter" in addition to or instead of a giver. The getter is only intended to scavenge oxygen and similarly reactive impurities and has no effect (or a minor effect whose parameters are known and compensated for) on the gases intentionally included in the tube. Unlike those in used other electron tubes, the getters used in nixies generally did not produce a large patch of silver color on the envelope. Mercury generally does not darken or silver the surface of glass in a uniform manner, though occasionally nixies with mercury will have a little too much and some droplets can get stuck on the glass. Nixies without mercury or with very little mercury can have their glass and other structures slightly darkened or silvered by the "burning in" procedure that was run for several dozens of hours after they were made. Heavily darkened or silvered glass, to the extent that lit figures are noticeably dimmed or uneven, generally indicates a nixie that has been abused or is at or near end-of-life.

[Dalibor]

Hello,

I see a lot of confusion here, I will try to give some answers:

Getter:

Nixie tubes *do* use getters. The purpose of the getter is to absorb impurities from gas itself (never 100.00% pure), impurities evolved from the inner parts (never degassed 100%), in some cases small leaks in the glass to metal seals (wires through the glass) and in long term perspective also diffusion of gasses through the glass envelope itself. Getters *do not* react with inert gases (neon, argon etc.), and they absorb more than just oxygen..

Mirror:

The main difference is that nixie tubes as mercury doped tubes doesnt contain common barium based getters (well known "mirror") because the vapours of mercury would amalgamate with the barium rendering the getter saturated and also absorbing the mercury (= higher sputering rate). Instead, nixie tubes use non-evaporable getters in form of porous films or pellets.

New/old:

There is a process called "ageing" involved in manufacture of the nixie tubes. Every fresh tube must go to ageing to achieve uniform glow of all digits, this process is based on running the tubes under higher current to sputter out all oxides/residues from the cathodes and reveal fresh uniform metallic surface. The sputtered particles of residues and also metal are deposited on the internal elements and also glass envelope, so it might seem like used. Manufacturers used different techniques for ageing, so some tubes have higher sputter films (russians) some has almost nothing visible (NDR). Generally, every tube coming new from factory was run so much as it would get in many years ;-)

Alic's photos:

The mirror which is on the photos is very likely condensed mercury, there is often too much mercury inside old nixie tubes, so it makes those films. Try to put russian IN-12 into oven to 500C for an hour, you will see how much mercury will get released from the pill and sit on the glass.

Cheers!

Dalibor Farny

Dne pátek 11. března 2016 18:08:56 UTC+1 Alic napsal(a):

Hello everyone,

I've recently started to seriously collect nixies.

As they become less available (and more expensive), the chances to get used tubes sold as NOS increase.

I've bought some "NOS" 122P224 off eBay and I'm pretty sure they're actually used, because of the "silvering" on the side and below (see photos).

There are probably already a lot of posts on here explaining how to identify used nixies (visually and by measuring).

I've searched but without much success. Could someone please point me in the right direction? I don't want to falsely accuse the eBay seller...

Thanks.

Alic

[Alic]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge with me, everyone!

I'm learning a lot here, it's very interesting!

Getter :

It's funny : Just yesterday I saw a photo of the getter activation on Dalibor's Facebook page!

Ageing / testing :

Ok, so it is in fact almost impossible to tell the difference between a NOS tube and a lightly used one.

In the future I will simply inspect the glass in front of the numerals and if the sputtering is acceptable the tube will be ok for me.

Deposit on the side :

Even though mercury seems to be the main culprit, I think the sputtering from the wires, as mentioned above by Martin, can also be the cause in some cases.

I have an old Z560M where the wire illuminates as well as the numeral (for all the numerals) : the sides, where the wires are near the glass, are completely "silvered"!

Below is an example with and one without the deposit :

On other tubes I have a grey film on the glass following exactly the wires close to it.

Concerning the mercury in IN-12 tubes, is this what you can see in the photo below?

Is the round thing in the middle the mercury pill?

All 6 tubes I have from that batch show a thicker film in exactly the same spot (whitish in the photo, but it's reflecting).

Have a nice week-end,

Alic