Keeping tasks as notes in MLO is a misuse of this task organiser. Discuss.

[JimboDimbo]

Of course, we all keep our data separate from our tasks don't we? We can use Evernote, Onenote, TreePad, filing system, etc., etc. to store all our notes.

Well, yes. But I always seem to like keeping some notes in MLO for data which can turn into tasks, which informs or prompts tasks, or which requires (ir)regular review.

E.g. templates of tasks for repeat actions/projects; check-lists of tasks; handy reminders of procedures; main notes from standards e.g. I use ITIL and PRINCE2 note sets to serve as prompts; any sort of "active" (?) data (i.e. is closely associated or turns into tasks).

This is not a task which has notes, that's fully covered by MLO already. This is data which does not have a task.

The recommendation/response from UserVoice (MLO feature handling) to the request(s) for notes in MLO is that notes can be tagged as folders. I think the logic is: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it probably is a duck.

But, by relegating notes to be folders, we are missing out on a swan here.

I suggest that active notes are the precursor or foundations of many of our tasks. GTD recognises (five phases of Mastering Workflow) that collection/processing/organising of incoming data is essential to producing a valid set of actions (tasks). Whilst other data collection systems form the basis of the early workflow phases, it is useful to have data in task form at the outline and review stage of task management to help/prompt/remind/inspire us to produce the tasks we need. This is especially true for me because I find it hard (unnatural) to follow the GTD 5 workflow phases.

These notes should have a special status and are not in any way folders, even if their behaviour is similar (Completed box replaced by a note icon, excluded from ToDo).

Here's what I have in mind for a simple implementation in MLO:

1. Add the option to tag a Task as a "Note" next to the Folder option in the Properties, General window.

2. A task with the note option selected has the completed box replaced with a new note icon. Different from the task notes icon.

3. A note can also be a folder, but the folder icon has precedence.

4. All sub-tasks created under a note are by default automatically also tagged as notes, but can be changed manually.

5. As for Folders, notes are automatically excluded from the ToDo view.

6. Be able to select Notes view to show all notes only and all folders/projects/tasks which contain notes.

7. Sub-tasks created under notes are treated as ordinary sub-tasks.

So, having outlined all that, is it a misuse of MLO to use tasks as notes?

I know that there are no real hard and fast rules and we can use MLO in many ways. But I know it's usually best not to swim against the tide.

Do any of you guys keep notes in MLO? Could you benefit from having this additional type of task?

Your thoughts/comments/opinion invited.

Cheers,

Peter.

[David Timpe]

I keep notes in a moleskin or in Evernote or both, never in MLO. I rarely use the notes field for more than a hyperlink or a phone number.

[Lisa Stroyan]

I have so many old tasks that haven't been touched in years, that for all intents and purposes they fit your definition :-)

I'm not sure why they need a different category, though. I use "hide in to do" to distinguish them from active tasks. What is the functionality, other than the icon, you're looking for?

You might be able to use automatic formatting rules combined with "hide in todo" if you want an interim solution.

Lisa Stroyan, lstr...@gmail.com

I keep notes in a moleskin or in Evernote or both, never in MLO. I rarely use the notes field for more than a hyperlink or a phone number.

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[Dwight]

Hi, Peter. I have some of the types of items you described: I keep templates of tasks as task templates in my templates folder. I keep checklists as projects with a task for each checkable item. Sometimes I keep procedures in the note of a task or a task template – especially procedures for repeating tasks. There are related things that I keep in Evernote, like a task whose description is a photograph. Or a collection of observations and aspirations that need to be shaped into a project. Having a fourth data type (note, after task, project and folder) may be of some help but I can’t actually picture it right away. I should point out that if there were a way to create a taskless note, I would probably not use it until it could handle rich text and attachments.

-Dwight

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[SRhyse]

I've wanted similar functionality in MLO before as well, acting similar to folders, only perhaps with a different icon or simply the removal of the checkbox from a task. That would work well with the outline view of MLO to me.

I also agree similar 'functionality' can be enabled by using, say, closed contexts, toggling off on a task-basis 'hide in todo', or simply managing how you view your tasks, which is basically what I do now. If all my technically 'active' tasks were indeed active, I'd have an unmanageable list of things I'd never get to, but I mostly view things in an actionable sense from Star, context, date, or a combination there of views. If I'm in outline-view, I'm going to see everything anyway. And if I'm in another special view, I'm only going to see what I've designated to see. Something simply 'existing' in MLO, unless I'm viewing the outline, doesn't necessarily mean it's a task for me personally in how I use the wonderful program.

Honestly, everything's smoke and possibilities until it gets into the star view of things I'd like on my mind at the present moment. I have thousands of tasks, ideas, etc, but something being starred is when anything becomes concrete in most cases.

[JimboDimbo]

"... What is the functionality, other than the icon, you're looking for?"

Yes (Lisa). That's the question I suppose.

It's just that notes are not tasks and they're not folders. Maybe the request is mainly theoretical?

I don't know why it's so important to me to carefully flag notes, but I use a separate context (#Note) and an automatic formatting rule to add a note icon in the icons field.

Dwight is correct that once you start having "notes" then the next (logical) step is likely to be formatting and attachments; then maybe a whole new set of properties. I would not want MLO to change from being a super task manager.

Also, like SRhyse says, we all use our own techniques in MLO to manage hundreds of tasks and how we view them. I agree that there are actually only a small sub-set of tasks we really need to see (bring to our attention) and it's how we handle the rest that I think this note category may help with.

Having notes as a different category would allow you to:

1. Easily format them (with a new Note Format in the Options, Themes and Formatting) to distinguish from the other categories.

2. Easily produce views showing them, e.g. Outline: Notes; or Notes by Project, etc.

3. Recognise that it is OK to have a lump of data that informs our process model and helps us get stuff done but which is not a defined task.

GTD asks the first question about incoming data items: Is it actionable? This is where notes comes in. No, they are not actionable; but notes can be very useful in processing incoming items and reviewing our tasks.

Here is a bit more explanation about how I manage my tasks, or rather manage them when I actually do review them, since I'm not very disciplined.

Apart from notes to help inform and facilitate new tasks, I would also like a method to move existing tasks down the attention ladder. Sure at the top end we have the starred and goal methods to lift critical tasks up above regular tasks to get our attention, but how about tasks at the bottom end? Ones which we don't want to delete or complete, but are useful to remind us during a review that a topic may come up again or will change into a new set of tasks. I like to turn these into notes, so that they drop out of the To-Do, but remain as items for review under a project or topic. The idea is that the task becomes data for a while until it either stops being useful (delete or archive), or turns into a new task.

I know these can simply be tasks without dates or hidden in To-Do, but I'd really like them not to be tasks anymore, because they are not. They are not actionable, they are notes.

In fact any data which helps to manage my tasks and is useful right next to them is in MLO. A lot of it is in the task notes field, but sometimes a separate data task (note) is more useful.

For work I usually have several projects on the go, each has a different set of people. So I use a simple list of the people involved in the project (internal people and external customers, with job titles, phone number and email address) in a sub-task in the MLO project. Then I can use the task properties to set a reminder or review date, rather than leave it as a note in the project task itself.

This is what I mean by active data, stuff that changes and I need to keep tabs on or refer to quickly, but not a task in the project because it is never a real committed task and is never completed. I view it as data, or a note.

I also have meeting checklists, design priorities (I work as a solution architect), risks and life-cycle considerations as active notes for some (but not all) projects.

I don't want these to appear in my To-Do list, but I do need to review them occasionally. If I need to formalise them (maybe 15% of them), then they become a task (or spawn a new task) until my commitment is complete, then they can become a note again.

They can spawn tasks because (for example), after a review, one of the risks seems more likely or some action needs to happen.

Maybe this is just another way to move tasks between someday/maybe and things we have commitments on. But for me, someday/maybe usually means forget it. Having a notes category of task allows me to easily keep data visible in the project (in Outline view) that I need instant access to, but which does not appear in the To-Do list, unless I want it to (switch to a task).

I think we need some better ways to manage the tasks and meta-information at the edges of our core task set and for me a note category of task would do nicely and fit well with how MLO works.

[David Rees]

Hopefully this isn't too much of a tangent, but it feels related to what you are trying to do (and what I want to do).

I really have two kinds of sub-items that I deal with right now that I feel MLO could be better at. One is note like items and the other are "detail tasks" that I plan to work on in the context of their parent task (which may be a task or a project). I currently use contexts for both (because they are easy to activate using hot key) and then filter my views using those contexts.

With custom views I can hide the sub-items away pretty well. This is important to having a manageable list of just the main tasks.

The problem I am having is I don't have an easy way to see these sub-items in the context of their parent task. Some possible ways of solving this:

• Show sub-items in the side bar when a task is selected
  
• Simple but effective
• Show  sub-items when item is selected (so it kind of auto-expands)
  
• Probably tricky to make UX work well
• Support "zoom to first" pane option for tabs (so a tab shows a zoomed view of the first tab selection) plus the ability to have new window with that view
• Definitely my favorite, but a power user type approach since it takes multiple windows.
• Show notes field across the bottom of the window (for more width)
• This is a poor man's approach, but if notes were more generally usable I would probably just through more sub-items in there. With them on the side I find them to small to be of use for a list of items.
•  
  

 

d

[Chris Randle]

Hi Peter and list

On 2013-08-24 13:03, JimboDimbo wrote:
> I use a separate context (#Note) and an automatic formatting rule to add
> a note icon in the icons field.

I do exactly the same thing.

I create notes for detailed solutions to problems that I might see
again. Often they're created from the notes I made against tasks in
progress. For me, it's part of "*one* trusted system" - everything's in
one accessible, searchable place - both tasks and reference material
that might be useful for completing future tasks. Tagging up notes
differently stops the two becoming mixed up.

I'm OK with the context, formatting, icon, and hide from task list
motif, but having a built-in single step solution would be great. But,
from the response to your question, I suspect that this is a niche area.

--
Chris Randle

[daniel sekera]

And I feel directly opposite.  From what I remember of the books (its been a few years) you start by getting a pile of blank folders and a label maker

so a folder is the storage mechanism

in the folder gets dropped everything that relates to the folder subject

these items are then fleshed out for next actions but the folder is still the mother ship just like a regular filing cabinet system

so treating every item in the folder as its own "line item" is the proper way is it not? (I say line item because I used to get hung up on calling each one of these things a "task"  to me at this level the software might consider them tasks but in my mind they are just notes like you are saying that may or may not lead into tasks.

to me it is more of a verbage thing than anything else.  If I was using paper it would just be another piece of paper or 3x5 card in the folder.

--

[daniel sekera]

basically the same method.  a folder in my outline named projects for review, most of the items in the folder have the context @projects but not all.  the context is what it should be if the project was "active", and all of them have the box marked to hide the branch in to do.

I guess some would bother to set up review times for these items. I don't,  I review them when I want or I am looking for work to do and if something needs to be started I simply un hide the branch and start working adding subtasks as necessary to get to the magical "next action"  I am as faithful to that as humanly possible as I bought into the whole I can only do the next action thing.  It took me years to come up with a tree that works for me that supports that and this folder was the missing link

I find over time I have been making more and more use of folders and into the folder I drop anything that has to do with the subject as a task even though most of these "tasks" are simply notes, thoughts or ideas.  I just mark them as hide and they are there for when I need them but they do not interfere or pollute my to do lists which are ALL context driven.  Context is the only selector I use.  I have my context view set to show me the hierarchy this way I see the original subject folder in the list as well which triggers instant relationship to why the task is there in the first place.

an example in my main outline I have a folder called accessory department tasks

in that folder is a subfolder called terry and wil as they are my employees in that department

in that subfolder are all the tasks I am holding them accountable forand any associated notes or links are in the notes field for each one of these tasks.  all these tasks are marked with the context @agendas

so monday at my weekly review with that team I click on my tab which is set to view by context

click on the @agendas context so ALL my active @agend items are showing 

and I see an outline that looks like this

              ACCESSORY DEPARTMENT TASKS - SEE FILE IN CART

                          TERRY AND WIL

                                   ULICHNEY - FM U

                                   2014 mdx headrest display unit waiting on tom casey to put on display

                                    hitch and bike rack on outlander sport - spoke to bill

                                    restock toyota accy rack

                                     refill glass cases with trinkets and trash in chrysler showroom

                                     terry calling to get a trifecta display rack for cjd showroom

                                     NIKE CLASSIC 962-999-04-45-4000 IDENTIFY AND PLAN HOW TO MOVE - 10AM MEETING

                                     KURT DISPLAY FOR HITCHES LOOK INTO

                                     showroom accessory literature

      

now during the meeting i can discuss each task either marking it done, adding notes, changing due dates etc 

If the task requires anything rich text or images etc I use onenote and drop a link into the note area

just some idle thoughts what works for me may not for others

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[Lisa Stroyan]

Thanks for sharing your process, Daniel. So would a note icon next to those items be helpful?

I did just think of a difference between the idea of a note and hide-in-to-do: it would allow marking a whole branch to be hidden or unhidden, and having the notes stay hidden regardless and clearly delineated from ones that are still someday/maybe.

But my question for others is, should it really have a different inheritance model from hide-in-to-do (or another property)? That seems complex and less likely to fly.

Lisa Stroyan, lstr...@gmail.com

[Stéph]

Hello JinboDimbo,

I don't know if this is useful to you, but did you know that you could set the icon for your #Note context to appear in position 0, by specifying it in automatic formatting. If you put it at the top of the list of Automatic Formatting rules (menu item Tools-Options-Automativpc Formatting), you could even have it go in place of the folder icon.

Stéphane

[Stéph]

Thinking about it, you could always do something like write the word NOTE at the start of the description or note field of any item you want to format as a note. You could then get the automatic formatting rule to look for items where the note field starts with your keyword, then puts your note icon in position 0. It would be a good idea to set it as folder, too, so that it doesn't appear in your todo list views.

Oh, I love those Automatic Formatting rules - they make MLO so flexible!

Stéphane

[Benny]

Thanks Stéph, This made my day! Had no idea that you could do this, sooo much to learn, and unfortunately no where to know where to learn all this!

Ben 

[Benny]

Forgot the picture on how to make the folder converted to a Note in only this simple steps!

Ben

Den torsdag 29 augusti 2013 kl. 22:29:27 UTC+2 skrev Stéph:

[MOK | MATSURU]

Stéphane,

  Does the icon appear in ANDROID/iOS MLO?

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[Laurence Glazier]

They will show as folders on the phones (I found the icon in position 0 only works if the item is set as a folder). I have set a shortcut key to the context #NOTE, so it is possible to quickly set items as notes.

[Stéph]

Hello Mok. I don't remember whether MLO has a "note" icon, out of the box. A long time ago, I replaced nearly all the icons with a set of icons I created (which I've posted in a pinned thread somewhere near the top of this forum). The bottom line is that you can import a "note" icon of your choice into the desktop version of MLO.

In answer to Benny and Daniel's posts, there's so many ways of using MLO, whether it's folders or notes, whether you use "hide in todo", etc. Personally I use folders for all my extra notes, such as lists of contact names for projects, etc.

On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 14:31:12 UTC+1, MOK | MATSURU wrote:

Stéphane,

  Does the icon appear in ANDROID/iOS MLO?

On 11 October 2017 at 17:47, Benny <bengt....@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Stéph, This made my day! Had no idea that you could do this, sooo much to learn, and unfortunately no where to know where to learn all this!

Ben 

Den torsdag 29 augusti 2013 kl. 22:29:27 UTC+2 skrev Stéph:

Thinking about it, you could always do something like write the word NOTE at the start of the description or note field of any item you want to format as a note. You could then get the automatic formatting rule to look for items where the note field starts with your keyword, then puts your note icon in position 0. It would be a good idea to set it as folder, too, so that it doesn't appear in your todo list views.

Oh, I love those Automatic Formatting rules - they make MLO so flexible!

Stéphane

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[Bob Clark]

This is interesting to me because while I've attempted to keep tasks AND notes in MLO, I didn't realize that was frowned upon. One of my issues, and it's just an issue with my method, is that I put EVERYTHING in MLO - my trusted locaton. But, I put so much in there, that it's always overwhelming. I think if I could develop a habit where only tasks go into MLO and only notes go into Evernote, I might be less overwhelmed when it comes to prioritizing my tasks. Is this concept something documented somewhere? I'd like to read further about it.

Thanks,

Bob

[Christoph Zwerschke]

Am 24.10.2017 um 12:30 schrieb Bob Clark:
> This is interesting to me because while I've attempted to keep tasks AND
> notes in MLO, I didn't realize that was frowned upon. One of my issues,
> and it's just an issue with my method, is that I put EVERYTHING in MLO -
> my trusted locaton. But, I put so much in there, that it's always
> overwhelming. I think if I could develop a habit where only tasks go
> into MLO and only notes go into Evernote, I might be less overwhelmed
> when it comes to prioritizing my tasks. Is this concept something
> documented somewhere? I'd like to read further about it.

Depends on how you understand "notes". Of course you can and should put
short notes into the notes field of a task. Maybe in the next version
you can even have formatted notes with bullet points or check lists.

But MLO is not the right place to manage the whole reference material
necessary for some tasks or projects. Instead, you put links to your
reference material into MLO, either into the node field of the enclosing
task folder or project, or into individual tasks. If you use Evernote,
you can copy a link to an Evernode note with Ctrl-Alt-L and then paste
it into the MLO note field with Ctrl-V. If you put "file:" before the
"evernote:" you get a clickable link. With Ctrl-Alt-F in MLO you can
also link to a file.

There is also an Outlook integration, and you can send mail to MLO if
you have MLO cloud. Often a short note "see mail" is sufficient. If I
want to reply to that mail I need to open my mail client anyway.

-- Christoph

[Steve Kunkel]

I feel like I already have too many apps that I use continuously through the day, so for me, keeping my notes in MLOw makes sense.  My own system is that things are mostly Projects or Tasks.  Usually a Project (which is also a "project" in the David Allen sense) will have it's own notes and have it's own subtasks.  A subtask of a project NEVER has it's own notes though.  This is because I might have 100 or more projects in a year, and I keep them (and their notes) for archival purposes.  I cull off the subtasks when the notes get archived though.  Otherwise I'd have thousands and thousands of untouched MLO branches in my main working outline.  

I should point out that I don't really use my notes organizing/planning.  Mostly I just use them to track progress on the project.

[Daniel Sekera]

To me, a task is a task and only a task.  A task is not a meeting, or a haircut, or a doctor appointment, they are calendar events.  A calendar never has tasks and a task list never has appointments.  A task almost always contains notes, and my tasks are almost always a direct result of an email which almost always has an attachment that could even be part of the task itself like a spreadsheet.  So MLO was never "perfect" for me, it was never a one stop shop and I do not think it can ever be a one stop shop.  There are just too many choices, and apps, and situations to be all encompassing.  So my calendars tell me where I have to be at what time.  When I am not involved in a calendar event and have time for "work" then I can only DO 1 thing at a time which means I can only do a task or a next action on a task.  A task CAN be time sensitive, but all the task manager has to do is alert me to that fact.  To do something, I probably need my notes or email or attachments so they are contained in my Evernote.  A third party app (taskclone) allows me to tie together these notes and tasks automatically.  So I do not need MLO to be "everything"  I love that it works for me the way it does.  Consequently I have pretty much stopped exploring what MLO can do and can rarely answer an very complicated how do I do this because I never run into that situation myself.  I used to years ago get so frustrated with all any user bashing everything MLO could not do or did not contain and would constantly try to "champion" MLO from the standpoint of; it can only do what it does you just have to figure out how to change the way you do things.  However, the developers (in my opinion) embraced all the requests and set about trying to make MLO everything to everyone.  As such it is simply remarkable what it can do.  I read peoples variations and how they use it for them and marvel at the complexities it will support.  I have also grown from the standpoint that I need to be satisfied that my way works for me and I do not need to understand everyone else or why they do what they do.  I am much more relaxed and accepting because of this.  Mlo and I finally have come to terms with each other on what each of use contributes to the workday.  I have no need for anything else.

so my vote fwiw is that you should not keep tasks as notes  (unless that works for you :)....)

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 12:02 PM, Steve Kunkel <kunk...@gmail.com> wrote:

I feel like I already have too many apps that I use continuously through the day, so for me, keeping my notes in MLOw makes sense.  My own system is that things are mostly Projects or Tasks.  Usually a Project (which is also a "project" in the David Allen sense) will have it's own notes and have it's own subtasks.  A subtask of a project NEVER has it's own notes though.  This is because I might have 100 or more projects in a year, and I keep them (and their notes) for archival purposes.  I cull off the subtasks when the notes get archived though.  Otherwise I'd have thousands and thousands of untouched MLO branches in my main working outline.  

I should point out that I don't really use my notes organizing/planning.  Mostly I just use them to track progress on the project.

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[Dwight]

I often get an email telling me about something I need to do. If it
feels like a task I will move it to MLO with the email body in the note.
On Windows this happens by forwarding to TBE. On Android it's share to MLO.

Information that comes up as a part of a project will go into the
project note as described by several other commenters, but with a couple
of exceptions. (1) If the information remains valuable after the project
is finished, it will go to Evernote. (2) If the information requires
tables, outlines, formatted text or attached files, it goes to Evernote.

Evernote links can be either share or internal. An internal link starts
evernote:/// and does not work on Android even if evernote is installed
on the android system. A share link starts http:// and works across
platforms but involves putting your data on the cloud with security
measures that are not all that impressive.

-Dwight