Combination of PQRs

[K K]

Hi Experts,

“Good Morning”

According to my line classes, I required NACE+HIC+PWHT Wet H2 services.

What is the test shall be conducted according to the standard to meet the requirements?

I have one PQR with NACE+PWHT+Wet H2S services, but not HIC test.

In addition, I have qualified one HIC tested PQR without PWHT no other lab test certificates, shall I combined this PQR to the above requirements( NACE+HIC+PWHT+wet H2S).

For your information, the HIC test is an additional requirement of our specifications.

Please looking your feedback on my above query.

Thanks and Regards

Kiran

[Sudhakar Kuppuswamy]

Hi,

Please specify the material grade and the design code. 

As you have mentioned Line class, I presume you are talking about piping . 

Regards 

Sudhakar K 

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[K K]

Hi,

Yes, Piping requirements.

SA 516 gr 60/70. and according to ASME Sec.IX and ASME B31.3.

The main PQR is qualified with PWHT, but not HIC tested.

And I have additional PQR with HIC tested, but not qualified with PWHT, and no other lab test reports like a mechanical test, bend test, and hardness test report, shall I combined this PQR to my WPS.

Please looking you feedback.

Thanks 

Kiran

On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 10:12:01 AM UTC+5:30, Sudhakar Kuppuswamy wrote:

Hi,

Please specify the material grade and the design code. 

As you have mentioned Line class, I presume you are talking about piping . 

Regards 

Sudhakar K 

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 at 11:33 AM, K K <kara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Experts,

“Good Morning”

According to my line classes, I required NACE+HIC+PWHT Wet H2 services.

What is the test shall be conducted according to the standard to meet the requirements?

I have one PQR with NACE+PWHT+Wet H2S services, but not HIC test.

In addition, I have qualified one HIC tested PQR without PWHT no other lab test certificates, shall I combined this PQR to the above requirements( NACE+HIC+PWHT+wet H2S).

For your information, the HIC test is an additional requirement of our specifications.

Please looking your feedback on my above query.

Thanks and Regards

Kiran

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[pgos...@rogers.com]

Hello KK,

HIC testing usually does not apply or  procedure qualification according to Sec-IX or even  as per oil and gas industry standards, say NACE MR 103 , API(RP-582). Common industry document for HIC testing is NACE TM -0284, which calls for HIC testing on parent metals, plates/ pipes etc.

 

How does this idea of HIC testing originate? Is it possible for you to share any specific or relevant document?

 

Thanks.

 

P.Goswami.P.Eng, IWE.

Independent  & Consulting Welding & Metallurgical Specialist

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pradip-goswami-2999855/

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[Kiran Ekbote]

Dear Sir,

Thanks for your response.

Sorry I am not able to understand your answer.

You mean that PQR can be separately included, there will be no issues right. 

I will explain to you in detail.

I have one WPS and with two PQR's.

one PQR with PWHT and second PQR we prepared an additional test coupon for the HIC test only.

And HIC  PQR has tested accordingly NACE MR 103 , API(RP-582), and NACE TM -0284, but in PQR we have not conducted mechanical, PWHT, and other tests.

If we have two PQR , so according to ASME Sec.IX we have to combine both PQR in WPS, with all essential variables.  

Please give me your response immediately, because my document is under hold.

Thanks 

Kiran

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KIRAN

[pgos...@rogers.com]

Kiran,

As I said before, HIC Testing is not MANDATED by ASME Sec-IX or any API, NACE specification. Does the project specification call for HIC testing during PQR qualification stage?  HIC testing is typically mandated for raw materials , e.g. plates, pipe, line pipes etc. Look at NACE TM-0284 . What’s the component pressure vessel or  line pipe?

If your organization has done HIC testing  on PQR  coupons, you may use this result as a supplementary information over and above the PQR qualified with PWHT. Combination of PQR is allowed in ASME Sec-IX

Hope it clarifies you doubt. Also please scan and share your project requirements?

 

Thanks.

 

P.Goswami.P.Eng, IWE.

Independent  & Consulting Welding & Metallurgical Specialist

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pradip-goswami-2999855/

Email:pgos...@rogers.com,pradip....@gmail.com

Cell/Whasapp:1-905-9793232

 

From: material...@googlegroups.com <material...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Kiran Ekbote
Sent: July 29, 2020 1:53 AM
To: material...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MW:31231] Combination of PQRs

 

Dear Sir,

 

Thanks for your response.

 

Sorry I am not able to understand your answer.

 

You mean that PQR can be separately included, there will be no issues right. 

 

I will explain to you in detail.

 

I have one WPS and with two PQR's.

 

one PQR with PWHT and second PQR we prepared an additional test coupon for the HIC test only.

 

And HIC  PQR has tested accordingly NACE MR 103 , API(RP-582), and NACE TM -0284, but in PQR we have not conducted mechanical, PWHT, and other tests.

 

If we have two PQR , so according to ASME Sec.IX we have to combine both PQR in WPS, with all essential variables.  

 

Please give me your response immediately, because my document is under hold.

 

Thanks 

Kiran

 

 

 

 

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 9:20 AM <pgos...@rogers.com> wrote:

Hello KK,

HIC testing usually does not apply for   procedure qualification according to Sec-IX or even  as per oil and gas industry standards, say NACE MR 103 , API(RP-582). Common industry document for HIC testing is NACE TM -0284, which calls for HIC testing on parent metals, plates/ pipes etc.

 

Virus-free. www.avg.com

 

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KIRAN

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[Kiran Ekbote]

Thanks a lot for your feedback.

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KIRAN

[Manoj Mumbai]

Hi KK,

Your procedure is qualified as per ASME section IX, qualification procedure part is completed.

This is an additional project requirement, it has nothing to do with procedure qualification so you can make a coupon and test for HIC as per project specification as per NACE TM-0284 like corrosion tests or any test other than required as per ASME Section IX.

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[prasad loke]

Dear Sir,

 

Greetings !

 

We are in need your expert opinion on following issue,

 

We have WPS/PQR for Incolloy 825-Incolloy 825 ( P number 45)----Filler used for same is from SFA 5.14

Now We have a requirement of SS904L to SS904L welding.( P number 45)---Where recommended filler is ER385 with SFA 5.9

 

If we make WPS with filler from SFA 5.14 for this (SS904L to SS904L) welding as P number is same, can it be supported with existing PQR of Inc-825 to INC-825 ?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Regards

Prasad Loke

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[Customer Care]

Dear Prasad,

It seems to me that your proposal is not valid because the INCOLOY  825 alloy belongs to the family of nickel base alloys with filler metal within SFA 5.14. (for example ERNiFeCr-1).

 

904 L is a high alloy austenitic stainless steel and must be welded with filler metal of the same composition within SFA 5.9 (ER385) and also to weld the SS 317 / 904L combination.

 

You should prepare WPS with PQR for this 904L alloy.

 

Regards,

 

Ramon Briceno / Metallurgical Engineer -Oil & Gas

www.linkedin.com/in/ramon-briceño-976265b5

 

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From: prasad loke
Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2020 7:20 AM
To: material...@googlegroups.com

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[Kannayeram Gnanapandithan]

if f no is same u can, but it overmatching if u use incoloy filler. u can use NiCrMo3

THANKS & BEST REGARDS,

KG.PANDITHAN, BE, IWE,  CSWIP 3.1,

ISO 9712 Level 2 in VT,

ASNT-Level II in PT,MT,RT & UT,

LA ISO 9001-2015,

International Welding Engineer. 

CONSULTANT-WELDING & QUALITY

Mobile no: +919940739349

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[Zeghanu Gigi]

Good morning,

Dear Ramon as Metallurgical Engineer ,are you so kind to give us your opinion related the microstructure,mechanical properties,etc affected if austenitic SS 904 is welded with ER NiCr,ER NiFeCr(SFA-5.14 filler metal)?

Seems to be interesting.

Regards

Gigi

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[in...@pieper-qsi.nl]

Thank you for your e-mail, unfortunately I’m out of office till Monday August 10th . In the meantime I will have minimum access to my e-mail account. When you didn’t receive an response before this date I will answer your e-mail on Monday August 10th.

Best Regards,


Herman Pieper

[pgos...@rogers.com]

Hello Prasad,

 

As per ASME Sec-IX  you may use the qualified WPS on alloy 825  for welding alloy 904L. Both of these alloys are classified as  P No 45. However if the welding requirements are strictly as per  Sec-IX , then this welding would be allowed, provided the  welding consumables/filler metals for welding alloy 825 and 904L are the same(unchanged).

 

For welding 904L to 317SS with ER 385 a new PQR should be qualified.

 

 

 

·         A snapshot of 904L(UNS 08904) , as per Sec-IX,  

·         A snapshot of 825 (N08825) , as per Sec-IX,

 

Although the chemistry is widely different, both alloys are used for extremely corrosion resistant/demanding applications. Hence choosing welding electrodes/fillers, matching the base metal chemistry would ususally be advisable.  The  A No & F No of both ERNiFeCr-1  & ER-385 are doffernt. This is an essential variable as per Sec-IX. Hence requalification would be required if the welding consumable/filler  is changed.  

An extracts of the composition of both type of filer metals are as attached. As you may see ERNiFeCr-1 is richer with respect to the alloying elments, as compared to ER 385. Hence using this filer for welding 904L should  not be a problem with respect to chemistry and mechanical properties. However one has to know the service environment/corrosivity for the correct filler/elelctrode selection.

What is the service environment, phosphoric acid or  something  else?

One advise please do not mix the queries, the original query posted was on different topic. Please  take a little more effort to create a new topic and post your query.

 

Thanks.

 

P.Goswami.P.Eng, IWE.

Independent  & Consulting Welding & Metallurgical Specialist

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pradip-goswami-2999855/

Email:pgos...@rogers.com,pradip....@gmail.com

Cell/Whasapp:1-905-9793232

 

From: 'Zeghanu Gigi' via Materials & Welding <material...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: August 2, 2020 3:15 AM
To: material...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MW:31254] Combination of PQRs

 

Good morning,

 

Dear Ramon as Metallurgical Engineer ,are you so kind to give us your opinion related the microstructure, mechanical properties affected if austenitic SS 904 is welded with ER NiCr,ER NiFeCr(SFA-5.14 filler metal)?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/materials-welding/1187834379.15585076.1596352493070%40mail.yahoo.com.

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[Customer Care]

Hello Pgoswami,

 

I'm not sure, but that WPS qualified for the Inco 825 alloy, what type of filler metal does it have? If it is filler metal type ERNiFeCr-1, this filler joined to the 904L alloy has a very strong propensity to form a high amount of austenite phase, and in the total absence of delta ferrite, suitable to avoid hot cracking of the welding, particularly in this 904L austenitic steel.

For this reason, filler metal ER385 was created to perfectly weld 904L alloy.

I think, persuade ER385 to be used with 904L. They are like brothers.

 

Regards,

 

Ramon Briceno / Metallurgical Engineer- Oil & Gas

www.linkedin.com/in/ramon-briceño-976265b5

 

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[Customer Care]

Good morning Gigi, 

Well, I will try to be explicit as much as possible.

Welding a type 904L steel (high-alloy austenitic stainless steel) with filler type ERNiFeCr-1, has the following consequences:

-Both materials solidify in the austenite phase, with exponential increase in hot thermal expansion, which makes the weld susceptible to hot cracking in the HAZ.

-An indicator of this behavior, we can see it in a Schaeffler diagram, where if the filler metal ERNiFeCr-1 is used, the nickel equivalent (austenite phase former) rises considerably. There is no delta ferrite, a phase that helps prevent the weld from cracking during solidification.

- On the other hand, if ERNiFeCr-1 is used for the 904L, the Mo content in the weld is weakened and with it, reduces the resistance to pitting in chloride environments and the risk of cracking in sulfuric acid environments.

For this reason, whenever possible, we must use filler materials that are most compatible with the base metal, both in chemical composition and in the formation of the most similar solidification structures.

To solve this 904L welding problem, filler material ER385 was created. They remain as brothers at the end of everything.

I hope my comments serve you,

Regards,

Ramon Briceno / Metallurgical Engineer - Oil & Gas

www.linkedin.com/in/ramon-briceño-976265b5

 

---

De: 'Zeghanu Gigi' via Materials & Welding <material...@googlegroups.com>
Enviado: domingo, 2 de agosto de 2020 3:14 a. m.
Para: material...@googlegroups.com <material...@googlegroups.com>
Asunto: Re: [MW:31254] Combination of PQRs

 

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[wilfred kojo]

There is no problem welding 904L with SFA5.14 and since 904L and 825-Incolloy have the same P-number the qualified PQR/WPS can be used without issue; as a matter of fact nickel base filler metal (overmatching) especially NiCrMo-3 is preferred for welding this alloy to avoid formation of ferrite content in the weld metal. 

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[in...@pieper-qsi.nl]

[Amitabh Bhattacharya]

Hello ALL,

I agree with the recomended filler suggested in  e-mail below. ER385 is recomended in this application & a proven filler alloy. 

Service condition will govern the Corroision properties.of weld deposit. 

A PDS is attached for review . There are other reputed manufacturer as well.

Thanks 

Amitabh 

----- Forwarded Message -----

From: Customer Care <bric...@hotmail.com>

To: material...@googlegroups.com <material...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020, 11:58:32 PM EDT

Subject: RE: [MW:31261] Combination of PQRs

Good morning Gigi, 

Well, I will try to be explicit as much as possible.

Welding a type 904L steel (high-alloy austenitic stainless steel) with filler type ERNiFeCr-1, has the following consequences:

-Both materials solidify in the austenite phase, with exponential increase in hot thermal expansion, which makes the weld susceptible to hot cracking in the HAZ.

-An indicator of this behavior, we can see it in a Schaeffler diagram, where if the filler metal ERNiFeCr-1 is used, the nickel equivalent (austenite phase former) rises considerably. There is no delta ferrite, a phase that helps prevent the weld from cracking during solidification.

- On the other hand, if ERNiFeCr-1 is used for the 904L, the Mo content in the weld is weakened and with it, reduces the resistance to pitting in chloride environments and the risk of cracking in sulfuric acid environments.

For this reason, whenever possible, we must use filler materials that are most compatible with the base metal, both in chemical composition and in the formation of the most similar solidification structures.

To solve this 904L welding problem, filler material ER385 was created. They remain as brothers at the end of everything.

I hope my comments serve you,

Regards,

Ramon Briceno / Metallurgical Engineer - Oil & Gas

www.linkedin.com/in/ramon-briceño-976265b5

 

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[in...@pieper-qsi.nl]

[prasad loke]

Dear Sir , Thanks for your reply..I was just checking that possibility because of P number 45 is same..and as per ASME sec.IX, for welding with similar P numbers ..same PQR can be supported for subsequent WPS ..Thanks & Regards,Prasad

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[Kannayeram Gnanapandithan]

Is it not possible to use NiCrMo3

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[Zeghanu Gigi]

Dear Amitabh,

Please check the attachment.

What about ER NiCrMo-3?

Regards

Gigi

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[Zeghanu Gigi]

Dear  Ramon,

Thanks for interesting explanation of Austenitic Stainless Steel hot cracking.

Arcelor Mital propose SFA 5,14-ER NiCrMo-3 as well.See attachment.

Regards

Gigi

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[pgos...@rogers.com]

Hi All,

If 904L is welded with ERNiFeCr-1 electrodes/filler, it MAY or MAY NOT crack. The cracking issue is complex and are driven by  factors such as : thickness of the joint, degrees of restraint, joint preparation open V of narrow U shape. All these needs to be taken into considerations. Inconel electrodes are used in plenty for welding any dissimilar welds between fully austenitic stainless steels to many low alloy steels. Look at the issue of  any Buttering: on Low alloy steel then welding on to stainless steel. As long as alloying elements such as: C, S, P & Ti are controlled  in any Inconel type electrodes, cracking is NO Issue.

 

Note : 904L base metals are recommended to be welded with E/ERNiCrMo-3 type electrode/fillers( typically for offshore high chloride environments). ERNiCrMo-3 also generates fully austenitic welds.

 

However bad/ wrong  electrode selection results in  doomsday  for any good weld. On that logic the most matching electrode/filler  for 904L stainless would be E/ER 385(descriptions as attached). The real problems of welding 904L with ERNiFeCr-1as explained below:-

 

Chemistry:ERNiFeCr-1:-

 

Chemistry:Matching 904L Filler, AWS ER-385 :

 

 

904L Base Metal:

 

 

What ERNiFeCr-1 falls short is “Mo”. So if exposed reducing acids like HCl or any chloride bearing environments welds  may start pitting prematurely.

 

Thanks.

 

P.Goswami.P.Eng, IWE.

Independent  & Consulting Welding & Metallurgical Specialist

Aramco Approved Designated Project Welding Engineer(DPWR)

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[Zeghanu Gigi]

What do you rely on when you say that?

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[Customer Care]

Dear Gigi,

Excellent,  the best selection. Good luck with this welding.

I like to research solutions for welding and its alloys.

 

Regards,

Ramon.

 

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From: 'Zeghanu Gigi' via Materials & Welding
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 12:04 PM
To: material...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MW:31268] Combination of PQRs

 

Dear  Ramon,

 

Thanks for interesting explanation of Austenitic Stainless Steel hot cracking.

Arcelor Mital propose SFA 5,14-ER NiCrMo-3 as well.See attachment.

 

Regards

 

Gigi

 

On Monday, 3 August 2020, 06:58:33 EEST, Customer Care <bric...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 

 

Good morning Gigi, 

 

Well, I will try to be explicit as much as possible.

 

Welding a type 904L steel (high-alloy austenitic stainless steel) with filler type ERNiFeCr-1, has the following consequences:

 

-Both materials solidify in the austenite phase, with exponential increase in hot thermal expansion, which makes the weld susceptible to hot cracking in the HAZ.

-An indicator of this behavior, we can see it in a Schaeffler diagram, where if the filler metal ERNiFeCr-1 is used, the nickel equivalent (austenite phase former) rises considerably. There is no delta ferrite, a phase that helps prevent the weld from cracking during solidification.

- On the other hand, if ERNiFeCr-1 is used for the 904L, the Mo content in the weld is weakened and with it, reduces the resistance to pitting in chloride environments and the risk of cracking in sulfuric acid environments.

 

For this reason, whenever possible, we must use filler materials that are most compatible with the base metal, both in chemical composition and in the formation of the most similar solidification structures.

To solve this 904L welding problem, filler material ER385 was created. They remain as brothers at the end of everything.

 

I hope my comments serve you,

 

Regards,

 

Ramon Briceno / Metallurgical Engineer - Oil & Gas

www.linkedin.com/in/ramon-briceño-976265b5

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[in...@pieper-qsi.nl]

[Zeghanu Gigi]

Dear Ramon,

As I anticipate discussion is not  so bad.More that this one of my friend confirmed a Welding Procedure Qualification Record -combination

904L -base metal,ER NiCrMo-3 filler metal.May be he will send me the copy of it.

Regards

Gigi

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[prasad loke]

Thanks alot dear all for your valuable guidance on    904l welding issue..this is realy knowledge gaining experience for me..sorry for the mixing query with another topic..nect time i will take care..hv a good day..regards ,Prasad Loke

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[George Dilintas]

Check the F-Numbers. If the are the same, then Check the A-Numbers. If they are also the same then you can go

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